Overpowered prestige classes?

[blue_fenix]

Hi, I'd like to get some opinions on what some of the most overpowered / broken prestige classes are in 3.5, so I can ban them from an upcoming game where I won't have time to talk to the players about their characters before we start. I'm already considering throwing out Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil and Planar Shepard. What else do I need to be wary of?

[Pironious]

Not exactly a prestige class, but the feat "Vow of Poverty".

[RMS Oceanic]

As I understand it, Frenzied Beserker (Complete Warrior) is apparently very powerful.

[Pironious]

As I understand it, Frenzied Beserker (Complete Warrior) is apparently very powerful.

With the notable drawback of killing the other PCs.

[Nebo_]

Not exactly a prestige class, but the feat "Vow of Poverty".
Haha! VoP is weaksauce unless you're playing a druid.

Beware of the Incantatrix.

[CthulhuM]

Abjurant Champion is arguably overpowered, although it has the disadvantage of requiring both caster and melee levels to get into it.

Shadowcraft mages and Hulking Hurlers are also usually broken.

Really, almost any prestige class that gives full casting progression without requiring a player to give up something significant in return (like taking a couple crappy feats, or losing good saves or secondary features of their primary class, or preferably some combination of the above).

You might also just not allow people to take prestige classes from Eberron/Dragonlance/Forgotten Realms books without clearing them with you, since those books are, on average, significantly less balanced than the standard non-setting-specific books.

[OneWinged4ngel]

The Planar Shepherd easily takes its place as one of the most broken PrCs in D&D. It's the lazy man's road to Pun Pun level power. Just by virtue of taking the prestige class in the "as intended" way and progressing in it normally, you attain ultimate potential. No optimization skill required. How something like that got printed is beyond me.


Not exactly a prestige class, but the feat "Vow of Poverty".

Not only off-topic but not particularly true. Don't underestimate just how great equipment is. Equipment is pretty darn great. Yes, even for monks and the like. I find the feat more annoying than broken.


As I understand it, Frenzied Beserker (Complete Warrior) is apparently very powerful. If your definition of "very powerful" is "does way more damage than he ever needs to in order to eliminate enemies, and poses a rather large disadvantage to a party, while suffering from most of the failings of run-of-the-mill melee classes that can prevent them from landing an effective blow" then sure. Remember, though, that if an enemy has 500 hp, doing more than 500 hp of damage isn't going to actually help you at all, and that thousands of damage won't do any good at all if you can't land a hit. And that "efficiently and reliably dispatches enemies in a variety of situations with a minimal expenditure of resources" is a far better definition of very powerful. Blargh. Anyways, still a very problematic class to allow into a game, even if it's not all too hard to defeat.

[Pironious]

Haha! VoP is weaksauce unless you're playing a druid.

Or a monk(you CAN make ones that don't suck). Or a sorcerer. Anything that can get by with only simple weapons and has armour restrictions benefits ridiculously from VoP. Wizard is an exception because they need a spellbook.

[Swooper]

Ur-Priest is pretty broken imo, it's way too easy to take one level in it and then go for another fullcasting PrC. Same deal with Beholder Mage, but without Polymorph Any Object cheese, it's not accessible to PCs.

[The_Snark]

Really, almost any prestige class that gives full casting progression without requiring a player to give up something significant in return (like taking a couple crappy feats, or losing good saves or secondary features of their primary class, or preferably some combination of the above).

Agreed. Something-for-nothing classes are generally at least somewhat overpowered even if they aren't broken. Since casters have very few class features, they generally stand to lose less than other characters. (You'll never see a prestige class that grants full fighter bonus feats or sneak attack, 8 skill points, and other rogue special abilities, but full casting prestige classes are common.) See mild tangent below.


You might also just not allow people to take prestige classes from Eberron/Dragonlance/Forgotten Realms books without clearing them with you, since those books are, on average, significantly less balanced than the standard non-setting-specific books.

I'm not sure about the other two (and I know Forgotten Realms has produced some bad ones), but most Ebberon prestige classes aren't all that strong, with the notable exception of the Planar Shepherd. But really, any prestige class should have to be cleared, even if the answer is usually "sure".

Tangent: Obviously, caster prestige classes need to take away something in exchange for cool abilities. Losing more than one caster level is generally pretty harsh; unless it grant something good, it's normally not worth it. One caster level lost right at the start is generally a good balancing factor, and recently, a lot of classes work that way (Malconvoker, Nightmare Spinner; Unseen Seer and Spellwarp Sniper almost necessitate multiclassing, so they effectively have a lost caster level.)

The Initiate of the Unseen Veil is the worst offender here; it gives very powerful defensive abilities (with defense being of concern to fragile wizards) in exchange for... familiar progression. And three feats, two of which are prerequisites for the also-good Archmage (but note that the archmage requires you to give up spell slots, making it less of a something-for-nothing).

Oddly, one of the best-balanced arcane prestige classes (in my opinion) is a something-for-nothing: the alienist. It progresses familiar abilities (and gives new ones), and gives bonus feats. Prerequisites aren't too annoying since you're probably playing a summoner anyway.

What makes it balanced is that its class features (while very flavorful and generally useful) also have a bit of a drawback to them. Summoning pseudonatural creatures is awesome, but it means you can't summon demons and elementals anymore, limiting your summoning options. Bonuses to saves and HP come at the expense of your sanity.

It might just be that I like the class's idea, but it's always been one of my favorites.

Edit- If any of your PCs ever, ever asks to play a beholder mage...

[Lupus Major]

Dweomer Cheater, pardon, Keeper. (CD Web Enhancement)

Also, the Dervish is broken in the context of fighter prestige classes. (Not only broken but also absurd. All those dancing and grooving fighters suck.)

I haven't seen it in action, but ToB's Eternal Blade looks pretty cracked to me.

The Deepwarden isn't exactly broken but badly designed. After 2 levels you have everything the class is worth taking for. So if you want people to stick with one prestige class until it's finished, you might consider tweaking it.

[Gitman00]

Really, almost any prestige class that gives full casting progression without requiring a player to give up something significant in return (like taking a couple crappy feats, or losing good saves or secondary features of their primary class, or preferably some combination of the above).

QFT. Eldritch Knight is the first that springs to mind, although it's not the worst.

[Kurald Galain]

Initiate of the Sevenfold Cheese.

I think most of the prestige classes that give you high-level spells (e.g. Nar Demonbinder, Sublime Chord, Ur-Priest and so forth) are rather open to abuse for that reason.

Ur-Priest is just silly from the flavor alone - if you were a god, would you let your power be siphoned off by some weak unbelieving mortal? :smallbiggrin:

[Pironious]

Ur-Priest is just silly from the flavor alone - if you were a god, would you let your power be siphoned off by some weak unbelieving mortal? :smallbiggrin:

But mere mortals are exceptionally gifted at doing it without the gods noticing. Because... uh... gods... are... uh... :smallconfused:

[Kantolin]

Or a monk(you CAN make ones that don't suck). Or a sorcerer. Anything that can get by with only simple weapons and has armour restrictions benefits ridiculously from VoP. Wizard is an exception because they need a spellbook.

Er. Vow of Poverty's bonuses are easily (more easily) duplicated and exceeded with magical items. This includes monks and sorcerors. The major reasons Druids can get away with it is because wild shape is powerful enough to make up for things; but even they can get use out of magical items.

Assuming your game's on wealth-by-level, the only time a VoP unit is comparable/superior to a non-VoP unit is when you've been stripped naked and are in jail.

Edit: Oh, and:


Ur-Priest is just silly from the flavor alone - if you were a god, would you let your power be siphoned off by some weak unbelieving mortal?

You know, that happened to the greek gods all the time - all the time. What, didn't some random guy walk into Olympus, grab fire, and spread it throughout the entire world before any of the gods noticed? ^_^

[Goumindong]

Any wizard, or sorcerer, cleric, or druid prestige classes excepting the mystic theruge that dont lose any casterlevels.

In short. If a full caster doesnt lose caster levels, its broken.

[Tengu]

^^^
Agreed with Kantolin up there.
With Goumindong too, though classes that require you to take non-caster levels also qualify as non-overpowered (Arcane Trickster, for example).


QFT. Eldritch Knight is the first that springs to mind, although it's not the worst.

http://www.theinterpretersfriend.com/misc/humr/laugh.gif

Sorry, but no. Eldritch Knight requires you to gain 1 level in a non-casting class (or the Militia regional feat if you play FR, but you can take it only at first level) and you don't gain a caster level at the first class level. And everything you gain if you're a caster wizard is a slightly higher hit die and higher BAB, which is almost useless for a caster anyway. It's underpowered if anything. The class is made for gishes, who are weaker (aka - non-cheesy) than pure casters.

[OneWinged4ngel]

Any wizard, or sorcerer, cleric, or druid prestige classes excepting the mystic theruge that dont lose any casterlevels.

In short. If a full caster doesnt lose caster levels, its broken.

Mystic Theurge actually isn't an exception to the rule, for you see, he DOES lose caster levels. Just not in his actual PrC casting progression.

[Goumindong]

Mystic Theurge actually isn't an exception to the rule, for you see, he DOES lose caster levels. Just not in his actual PrC casting progression.

Yea, i forgot about the arcane trickster as well.

Eldrich Knight i dont like as a PRC because i think it does the Gish thing better than a Duskblade[albiet a bit later], and that is my baseline. On the other side, it does lose 2 caster levels or get the quickcast/touch spell attack actions like the duskblade does, so its a tossup.

[sun_tzu]

You know, that happened to the greek gods all the time - all the time. What, didn't some random guy walk into Olympus, grab fire, and spread it throughout the entire world before any of the gods noticed? ^_^

I don't think Prometheus really counts as a "random guy", what with being a titan and all.

[OneWinged4ngel]

Yea, i forgot about the arcane trickster as well.

Eldrich Knight i dont like as a PRC because i think it does the Gish thing better than a Duskblade[albiet a bit later], and that is my baseline. On the other side, it does lose 2 caster levels or get the quickcast/touch spell attack actions like the duskblade does, so its a tossup.

Duskblade/A Real Caster does gish better than Duskblade too, IIRC. Heh.

[Telonius]

Radiant Servant of Pelor is pretty high on the PrC power scale.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Ultimate Magus combined with Nar Demonbinder pretty easy to enter FRCS ( Sublime Chord a little harder) to fuel quickened meta. A great deal more meta than a comparable level caster.

[Kurald Galain]

You know, that happened to the greek gods all the time - all the time. What, didn't some random guy walk into Olympus, grab fire, and spread it throughout the entire world before any of the gods noticed? ^_^

Need I tell you what happened to him? :smallcool:

[Riffington]

Need I tell you what happened to him? :smallcool:

RIAA sued him?

[Darrin]

I haven't seen it in action, but ToB's Eternal Blade looks pretty cracked to me.

Eternal Blade is meh. The only ToB PrC you need to watch out for is Ruby Knight Vindicator. Spending a turn attempt to recover a maneuver or get a swift action can lead to some very broken things.

[Swooper]

Ur-Priest is just silly from the flavor alone - if you were a god, would you let your power be siphoned off by some weak unbelieving mortal? :smallbiggrin:
Agreed - any god who let's his power be stolen by a mortal deserves to have it stolen, for he is a wuss! :smalltongue:

The trick with balancing caster PrCs is to make them give up something, but it can't be too much, because then they won't bother with the class and just stick with their base class. If I were a wizard, I'd rather keep being a wizard than take a PrC that loses me a CL, or access to a school of magic, or something like that. Unless the benefits of that PrC were enough to make up for it, which they normally aren't. The problem with wizards is that they don't HAVE anything you can take away except spellcasting ability... You can't take away their armour, their BAB, their skill points or their HP, for they don't have any of that. I guess you can take away some class skills, their familiar or their bonus feats - and most existing fullcasting PrCs do some or all of those. However, that's not enough to balance most of them, so the solution is usually to make them require a couple of sucky feats like the MotAO does.

Did that make any sense? :smalleek:

[Duke of URL]

I'd vote for Incantatrix and Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil as overpowered -- other than requiring picking up a feat or two that you otherwise would not need, there seems to be virtually no reason to not take one of these classes once you qualify for them; and that spells "overpowered" to me.

[daggaz]

You know, that happened to the greek gods all the time - all the time. What, didn't some random guy walk into Olympus, grab fire, and spread it throughout the entire world before any of the gods noticed? ^_^


Prometheus was a Titan. A Titan! Not any mere mortal. The titans were so powerful, all the gods had to team up to imprison them, and the process helped create the earth as we know it today.

[Not Dice]

Blue Fenix, there is no such thing as a broken PrC. No matter how much damage the class does or what its effects are, you have the ultimate balancing factor as a GM:

If the PCs can do it, so can the bad guys.

And-

What the GM says, goes.


Instead of banning PrCs, just allow the players to play what they want and balance the encounters against them accordingly. They have a Leaping Charging Power Attacking Two-Handed fighter doing 500+ points of damage per hit? So does their first main encounter, and guaranteed none of the PCs have 500 HP or enough DR to handle it. TPK? Oh well, they have to live with the balance they created for themselves. :smallbiggrin:

[Green Bean]

Blue Fenix, there is no such thing as a broken PrC. No matter how much damage the class does or what its effects are, you have the ultimate balancing factor as a GM:

If the PCs can do it, so can the bad guys.

And-

What the GM says, goes.


Instead of banning PrCs, just allow the players to play what they want and balance the encounters against them accordingly. They have a Leaping Charging Power Attacking Two-Handed fighter doing 500+ points of damage per hit? So does their first main encounter, and guaranteed none of the PCs have 500 HP or enough DR to handle it. TPK? Oh well, they have to live with the balance they created for themselves. :smallbiggrin:

I'm sure that'd be very useful if everyone is equally optimized. Of course, in the very likely event that they're not, you've just killed all the non-overpowered characters while the overpowered one actually has a chance to survive.

[mostlyharmful]

Also, TPK? Not particularly conducive to fun times or to good, fleshed-out characters.

[Tengu]

I'd rather say "no, it's overpowered" to my players than agree and then screw them over. Does not sound like something a mature DM would do - if you let a player do something, it means he has your permission to do it, and you have nothing against his action OOCly. Would a parent let his child puts a hand into the fire, so the poor kid can learn that it does not feel very well from experience?

[Miles Invictus]

Blue Fenix, there is no such thing as a broken PrC. No matter how much damage the class does or what its effects are, you have the ultimate balancing factor as a GM:

If the PCs can do it, so can the bad guys.

And-

What the GM says, goes.


Instead of banning PrCs, just allow the players to play what they want and balance the encounters against them accordingly. They have a Leaping Charging Power Attacking Two-Handed fighter doing 500+ points of damage per hit? So does their first main encounter, and guaranteed none of the PCs have 500 HP or enough DR to handle it. TPK? Oh well, they have to live with the balance they created for themselves. :smallbiggrin:

Mutually Assured Destruction is not synonymous with game balance.

Some DMs prefer to spend their time creating fulfilling adventures instead of relentlessly optimizing their encounters to provide a decent challenge to overpowered PCs.

Encounter adjustment fails with widely disparate power levels between PCs. Imagine a high level party with a Wizard/Archmage/IotSV, Druid/Planar Shepherd, Fighter, and Rogue. Anything that challenges the powergamers will annihilate the other party members. Anything the regular party members can beat will be instantly destroyed by the powergamers. No, it's better to ban (or adjust) classes and feats to keep everyone on roughly the same power curve. Once everyone's equally effective, then you start tweaking encounters.

[SpikeFightwicky]

I'd rather say "no, it's overpowered" to my players than agree and then screw them over. Does not sound like something a mature DM would do - if you let a player do something, it means he has your permission to do it, and you have nothing against his action OOCly. Would a parent let his child puts a hand into the fire, so the poor kid can learn that it does not feel very well from experience?

What about the case of a less experienced DM? Suppose I present him with PrC X, he skims through it, says it's alright and allows it, and then as it's being played, realizes that it's overpowered and hampering his game.

[Frosty]

He can always change the class features mid-game after he talks about it with his players. Or he can give less wealth to that player.

[Dausuul]

What about the case of a less experienced DM? Suppose I present him with PrC X, he skims through it, says it's alright and allows it, and then as it's being played, realizes that it's overpowered and hampering his game.

Then he addresses the problem when he realizes it, hopefully working it out with you in a mature and reasonable fashion. Obviously, you can't fix a problem until you know it exists; but fixing a problem before play begins is better than fixing it mid-game.

[Not Dice]

The idea is not to screw over anyone, but rather warn the players that the balance of power goes both ways. Wield power responsibly. Live by the sword, die by the sword.

The scenario I describe is usually a warning I deliver to players if I find they're focusing on numbers instead of on character. It's all about the GM(s) telling a story and the PCs playing their part in that story. How much damage a character can do should have nothing to do with who that character is or why she exists, but if a player chooses to play the game as a number crunch with a best possible solution, I'll give him the game he wants.

On top of that, I echo the phrase "what the GM says, goes." If the GM delivers all the hurt onto the twink and directs the NPCs to avoid the more carefully thought out characters, that is the GM's will to reward the roleplayers and balance out the rollplayers.

Ultimately though, I'd hope any group doesn't have to endure such trials.

[CatCameBack]

With the notable drawback of killing the other PCs.

Frenzied Berserker got the giant NO stamp from me as a DM after reading it once. The reason I did so was not so much its power level, as the supposed "drawback" of the class' signature power.

I've played since early 1st edition, and I remember the orginal barbarian class from both Dragon articles and the original Unearthed Arcana (Worst. Bookbinding. Ever.). The barabrian was the original one-man wrecking crew (close in power level to the Cavalier fromt he same book). He had all kinds of myriad abilities, which were balanced out by the fact that he dictated what classes other players could play.

You read that right. He couldn't associate with clerics until 4th level...essentially making all casters in the party 4 levels lower (more or less) that the Barbarian character. He also claimed magic items, which he couldn't use, so he could destroy them (somehow duplicating an effect that Dispel Magic couldn't), and thus gain more XP.

So I could basically roll a character, gain a bunch of goodies, and share the bill for those abilities with everyone else. This didn't sound fair from a game balance perspective to me. We had two camps of players. One group had all-barbarian characters, and the other group had a "no barbarians allowed policy".

Any class with a drawback of "killing other party members" or "limits other players' choices" is unbalanced, imo.

PLus, the "I'm angrier than a normal really angry guy" sounds too emo to me. :tongue:

[Theodoxus]

I'm playing an IotSV for the first time ever, thrown into an epic campaign (i'm only 20th, playing with 21st - 23rd level characters.)

I really don't see - yet - how the PrC is broken. It's very defensive... 4 times a day I can toss up a protective ward against an incoming attack, but for offensive overpoweredness, I really don't see it.

My current incarnation is a non-spec wizard with Initiate and Archmage. So far, all I've encountered have been various golems and elementals (the party I joined was summoned to the elemental plane of earth.) I've kept the party alive through abjuration magic, but I was nigh useless against the golems until I took out my longbow against them. (yay elf proficiencies).

I've been playing D&D since the late 70's - so I've lived through every incarnation. However, like most gamers, I've never really experienced play above 15th level. I jumped at a chance to play epic... It's mindboggling how many choices I have... it's even more boggling how often my current spell list isn't optimized for what we're encountering. Makes me almost wish I was a sorcerer.

Sure, I probably won't ever die. I'm definitely more batman than superman, and thank goodness we have an evoker in the party to bring the big guns - but that all points to how the Initiate PrC isn't the problem. At least thats my experience so far. I'm sure as the campaign continues, I'll hopefully learn to use the vast power available in ways that are more beneficial than just setting up a barrier and shooting arrows. :)

Theo

[Reinboom]

Fiend of Possession
It's difficult to get into, it's has wonky abilities...
But being able to continually animate from tiny to colossal objects - including noncontinuous objects - with no drawback when the thing dies, Little to no limit on ability usage, and little effective harm to yourself... makes this easily abusable.

[ronnyfire]

hulking hurlers throw planets! :D

[CthulhuM]

Trust me, the Initiate is broken.

Sure, the class only provides you with defensive abilities... but they're damn good defensive abilities. You said it yourself, you'll probably never die.

And why should IOTSV need to help out your offense? You're a wizard with full casting - you've already got the best offense in the game. If you're having trouble with golems... well, your fault for not memorizing some spells that ignore SR. There are plenty of them (Obedient Avalanche and Transmute Rock to Lava are two 9th level examples, not to mention Gate).

[Starbuck_II]

I really don't see - yet - how the PrC is broken. It's very defensive... 4 times a day I can toss up a protective ward against an incoming attack, but for offensive overpoweredness, I really don't see it.

My current incarnation is a non-spec wizard with Initiate and Archmage. So far, all I've encountered have been various golems and elementals (the party I joined was summoned to the elemental plane of earth.) I've kept the party alive through abjuration magic, but I was nigh useless against the golems until I took out my longbow against them. (yay elf proficiencies).
Theo

Golems have weakness:
Core: Glitterdust, Grease, Sleet Storm, etc. Any no SR spells takes out a golem. Disintegrate the floor beneath the golem: he falls takes 1d6 damage (DR doesn't stop falling damage) and is trapped.

Non-Core: Orb spells, many many spells. Rust ray; vitrioloc sphere (firenall but acid no SR) was a Wu Jen spell that they gave to Wizards.

[olelia]

Going back to previous posts...if they do pick overpowered combinations thats what mirrors of opposition are for :smallbiggrin:

[Temp]

Going back to previous posts...if they do pick overpowered combinations thats what mirrors of opposition are for It's been said and said again:
Unless the entire group consists of Planar Shepards, throwing an optimized Planar Shepard against the party means everyone dies except--perhaps--the player who's taken levels in Planar Shepard.

[SpikeFightwicky]

Then he addresses the problem when he realizes it, hopefully working it out with you in a mature and reasonable fashion. Obviously, you can't fix a problem until you know it exists; but fixing a problem before play begins is better than fixing it mid-game.

I suppose that's to be expected, but in my experience, these kinds of problems are almost never resolved in a mature and reasonable fashion. Fixing it mid-game is often a necessity for some less experienced DMs or players (to the extent that I've had to take over the DM seat in a couple of games because the DM was frustrated that he couldn't do anything to challenge the PCs), and alot of times (IME) it leads to angry players that create 'vengeance' characters (characters that follow mostly core, but take really powerful options to make a 'legit' powerhouse character with the idea -You can't ban it if it's core - all to spite the DM for ruining the previous character). Either way, it's rarely a happy ending when this kind of thing happens (though much of the blame should go to the players for making overly-powerful characters when they know the DM is new to the whole DM thing).

[darthpower]

thrallherd

Dear god one of my pc sprung this prestige class on me and i said ok then the terrible happened

Man they get limitless minions and two cohorts :smallfurious:

[brian c]

Or a monk(you CAN make ones that don't suck). Or a sorcerer. Anything that can get by with only simple weapons and has armour restrictions benefits ridiculously from VoP. Wizard is an exception because they need a spellbook.

Not to beat a dead horse, but I like monks, I've played two separate monk characters with VoP (and the other PCs weren't optimized at all) and I can attest to the fact that VoP is not broken. I've only played it at fairly low levels, when it's okay, but if you look around at magic items, it's terrible to not have any higher up.


Anyway, overpowered PrCs, my list:

-Frenzied Berserker, should generally be avoided.

-Any Prc that has full caster progression; full casters are good enough already, they don't need anything else. I mean this for casters of any kind, although I'd be more willing to let a Sorcerer take a Prc since they're weaker than Wiz anyway.

-Specifically, Incantrix and Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil are basically broken

-Planar Shepherd

-Hulking Hurler can be good or bad, depending how the player plays it. If you just want to throw slightly larger boulders fine, but some people extrapolate outrageous damage from it. My advice is to not let anyone use it in conjunction with War Hulk (see below), and don't let falling damage be used to calculate thrown missile damage.

-War Hulk. These guys can more or less wipe out an army by themselves. It requires large size though, so it usually isn't available. I would avoid allowing it in any case though (but as a player, I can tell you it's hella fun)

Most melee PrCs are okay, just because in general melee guys aren't as strong as spellcasters, so giving them a bump will help balance them out.

[Goumindong]

As a general rule, PRCs should be used to make villians out of, and not make PCs out of.

[Swooper]

Can someone explain why the Planar Shephard is broken? It's not a prestige class I'm familiar with. Where is it from? Planar Handbook?

[Draz74]

Can someone explain why the Planar Shephard is broken? It's not a prestige class I'm familiar with. Where is it from? Planar Handbook?

It's some Eberron book -- Faiths of Eberron maybe? -- and it's a Druid PrC that gives you full spellcasting progression, full Wildshape progression, plus a couple abilities (including a Capstone) where you get to pick a plane of existence and get some super power related to that plane. Like if you pick a plane with different time flow than the Prime Material plane, you get to cast Time Stop once per day or something.

[Swooper]

Ah. Well I can agree to that. The druid certainly doesn't need more stuff.

[Starbuck_II]

It's some Eberron book -- Faiths of Eberron maybe? -- and it's a Druid PrC that gives you full spellcasting progression, full Wildshape progression, plus a couple abilities (including a Capstone) where you get to pick a plane of existence and get some super power related to that plane. Like if you pick a plane with different time flow than the Prime Material plane, you get to cast Time Stop once per day or something.

Try timestlop for 1 minute. Time flows 1:10 ratio. Time passes outside planar bubble 1 round every 10 you have.
If you can't buff/heal, etc and after 10 rounds figure out how to kick the enemies butt: that is just sad.

I mean, Time Stop is just a few rounds.

[Temp]

It's some Eberron book -- Faiths of Eberron maybe? -- and it's a Druid PrC that gives you full spellcasting progression, full Wildshape progression, plus a couple abilities (including a Capstone) where you get to pick a plane of existence and get some super power related to that plane. Like if you pick a plane with different time flow than the Prime Material plane, you get to cast Time Stop once per day or something.

And the Wild Shape? You can turn into a Magical beast at ECL 8.

And you can gain all abilities of an Outsider from your plane at ECL 14.

The only thing you really lose? Wild Empathy.

[Zincorium]

Try timestlop for 1 minute. Time flows 1:10 ratio. Time passes outside planar bubble 1 round every 10 you have.
If you can't buff/heal, etc and after 10 rounds figure out how to kick the enemies butt: that is just sad.

I mean, Time Stop is just a few rounds.

Very close, but it's much worse than time stop. First off, it affects everyone within 20ft of you. Second, you can keep it going for your allies for hours, although once you stop concentrating it's only 1-10 rounds. Lastly, you can use as many targeted spells as you feel necessary (one of the weaknesses of timestop).

[Illiterate Scribe]

It's some Eberron book -- Faiths of Eberron maybe? -- and it's a Druid PrC that gives you full spellcasting progression, full Wildshape progression, plus a couple abilities (including a Capstone) where you get to pick a plane of existence and get some super power related to that plane. Like if you pick a plane with different time flow than the Prime Material plane, you get to cast Time Stop once per day or something.

That particular ability (planar bubble) is actually a lvl 8 wizard spell. Sorry people, batman's got it too :smallfrown: (it's the ultimate god-killer, as well - planar bubble (outlands) strips a deity of all divine ranks while inside).

What's broken about the Planar Shepherd is gaining the (Su) and SLAs of an outsider shape; the CO boards' particular favourites are Efreeti-shape (3 free wishes/shape/day), and solar shape (all of the solar abilities, plus you cast as a just-prepared 20th level cleric for the day. Each time you wild shape).

[MrNexx]

http://goblinscomic.com/tf8.html

Defeating a Vow of Poverty.

[Guy_Whozevl]

Eternal Blade is meh. The only ToB PrC you need to watch out for is Ruby Knight Vindicator. Spending a turn attempt to recover a maneuver or get a swift action can lead to some very broken things.

Jade Phoenix Mage is pretty sweet too, with a build-in Arcane Strike (not as good, but still), access to Devoted Spirit, and a cool capstone ability. It also gives 8/10 spellcasting, full BAB, and two good saves. The small hit in caster level is almost negligable with Practiced Spellcaster.

Spellsword is also insanely good, not as a class itself, but more of a 1-4 level dip. The ability to cast in mithral breastplate (unless you alread could) is sweet, especially, without taking a major hit to your caster level.

I'm not sure of this one, but can Runecaster set a rune (of Heal or Restoration) to activate if he (assuming he carries the rune on himself) is poisoned or takes a specific amount of damage/goes unconcious? If so, that means the Runecaster can create instant Contingencies and have more than one active at a time, which is definitely broken.

[deadseashoals]

That particular ability (planar bubble) is actually a lvl 8 wizard spell. Sorry people, batman's got it too :smallfrown: (it's the ultimate god-killer, as well - planar bubble (outlands) strips a deity of all divine ranks while inside).

What's broken about the Planar Shepherd is gaining the (Su) and SLAs of an outsider shape; the CO boards' particular favourites are Efreeti-shape (3 free wishes/shape/day), and solar shape (all of the solar abilities, plus you cast as a just-prepared 20th level cleric for the day. Each time you wild shape).

What's this about a planar bubble spell?

Anyway, the main broken thing about Planar Bubble - the Planar Shepherd is an Eberron PrC, and Eberron actually has a 10:1 time plane (Dal Quor). As the ability reproduces traits of your favored plane...

If you port it out to the standard cosmology, that particular ability isn't quite as broken. Though the rest of it is still horrible, horrible, horrible cheese.

Here are my picks:

* Planar Shepherd (WTF, just WTF)
* Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil (lose some random feats, gain ridiculous defense)
* Incantatrix (lose one school and one feat, gain ridiculous offensive)
* Radiant Servant of Pelor (step down to d6 hit dice, lose NOTHING ELSE)
* Ur-Priest (9th level spells at ECL 14)
* Abjurant Champion (way, way, way beyond what any other gish class offers)
* Unseen Seer (way, way, way beyond what any other trickster class offers)
* Fist of Raziel (9/10ths divine, full BAB, awesome combat abilities)
* Champion of Gwynharwyf (full BAB, rage, smite evil, divine grace, supplemental spellcasting, DR, energy resistances, charm/compulsion immunities, WTF)
* Lion of Talisid (pounce, free haste, full animal companion, full spellcasting, and only lose 2 levels of wildshape progression)
* Frenzied Berserker (plows any melee encounter in 12 seconds flat)
* SRD Slayer (9/10ths manifesting, full BAB, decent skills, lots of class abilities, and you don't have to kill a mind flayer to get in)
* Shadowcraft Mage (for its part in the Killer Gnome character)
* Dweomerkeeper (take the components out of any spell, used to get free Wishes and the like)

The pattern here is that all but two of these either accelerate or advance your spellcasting without giving up very much at all.

Edit: One more, the Ruby Knight Vindicator, mostly for its Divine Recovery ability, which, among other things, allows you to:

* Take as many turns as you have turn undead attempts, in conjunction with White Raven Tactics
* Take a standard action every turn to daze an enemy with no save for as many rounds as you have turn undead attempts

[Azerian Kelimon]

Then, there are teamplayer cheese PrC's, but those augment other people, not you.

Another one: Thrall of demogorgon. Combined with a martial adept, swordy in particular, it's totally broken.

[MeklorIlavator]

What's this about a planar bubble spell?

Anyway, the main broken thing about Planar Bubble - the Planar Shepherd is an Eberron PrC, and Eberron actually has a 10:1 time plane (Dal Quor). As the ability reproduces traits of your favored plane...

If you port it out to the standard cosmology, that particular ability isn't quite as broken. Though the rest of it is still horrible, horrible, horrible cheese.

Here are my picks:

* Planar Shepherd (WTF, just WTF)
* Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil (lose some random feats, gain ridiculous defense)
* Incantatrix (lose one school and one feat, gain ridiculous offensive)
* Radiant Servant of Pelor (step down to d6 hit dice, lose NOTHING ELSE)
* Ur-Priest (9th level spells at ECL 14)
* Abjurant Champion (way, way, way beyond what any other gish class offers)
* Unseen Seer (way, way, way beyond what any other trickster class offers)
* Fist of Raziel (9/10ths divine, full BAB, awesome combat abilities)
* Champion of Gwynharwyf (full BAB, rage, smite evil, divine grace, supplemental spellcasting, DR, energy resistances, charm/compulsion immunities, WTF)
* Lion of Talisid (pounce, free haste, full animal companion, full spellcasting, and only lose 2 levels of wildshape progression)
* Frenzied Berserker (plows any melee encounter in 12 seconds flat)
* SRD Slayer (9/10ths manifesting, full BAB, decent skills, lots of class abilities, and you don't have to kill a mind flayer to get in)
* Shadowcraft Mage (for its part in the Killer Gnome character)
* Dweomerkeeper (take the components out of any spell, used to get free Wishes and the like)

The pattern here is that all but two of these either accelerate or advance your spellcasting without giving up very much at all.

Edit: One more, the Ruby Knight Vindicator, mostly for its Divine Recovery ability, which, among other things, allows you to:

* Take as many turns as you have turn undead attempts, in conjunction with White Raven Tactics
* Take a standard action every turn to daze an enemy with no save for as many rounds as you have turn undead attempts

I agree with most of what you say, except in regards to Champion of Gwynharwyf(due only to the fact that I don't know what it is), and the Unseen Seer and Ruby Knight Vindicator. The RKV is true, except that one can't use white raven tactics on oneself, so its not as bad as it seems. Though since you can give extra turns to others, its a bit to powerful(use it on the mage for even more broken arcane power), but this is really a problem with the maneuver.

On the topic of the Unseen Seer, yes, it gives more than a arcane trickster, but that's not so much a strike against it as it is one against the arcane trickster. The AT takes too long to really get into it, and then hampers the very attribute one of the classes is based around, skill points, and doesn't even give many bonuses to offset this. So by taking at least 8 levels(5 wizard, 3 rogue) of classes that work against each other, you get something that hurts the point of one of your primary classes, skills. You do get magic, but you need it if you're going to try and hold the same position you had. The class even droops your HD and BaB. The US gives more skills(though you still will lose some), SA progression, and some acually useful class features. And, one of its primary features comes at enough of a cost that your character would actually feat it(by the end you have lost 3 CL's in every school but divination). Furthermore, any theruge class should give extra goodies, because after 10 levels, you can only improve each class separately, and thus the minor power boost is offset by the fact that you are inherently weaker at either side than a full progression would be.

[Temp]

Spellsword is also insanely good, not as a class itself, but more of a 1-4 level dip.Two lost spell levels =/= "Insanely good."
...Unless it's being used somehow with Sublime Chord, but then it isn't the Spellsword that's contributing.


Here are my picks:

* Planar Shepherd (WTF, just WTF)
* Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil (lose some random feats, gain ridiculous defense)
* Incantatrix (lose one school and one feat, gain ridiculous offensive)
* Radiant Servant of Pelor (step down to d6 hit dice, lose NOTHING ELSE)
* Ur-Priest (9th level spells at ECL 14)
* Abjurant Champion (way, way, way beyond what any other gish class offers)
* Unseen Seer (way, way, way beyond what any other trickster class offers)
* Fist of Raziel (9/10ths divine, full BAB, awesome combat abilities)
* Champion of Gwynharwyf (full BAB, rage, smite evil, divine grace, supplemental spellcasting, DR, energy resistances, charm/compulsion immunities, WTF)
* Lion of Talisid (pounce, free haste, full animal companion, full spellcasting, and only lose 2 levels of wildshape progression)
* Frenzied Berserker (plows any melee encounter in 12 seconds flat)
* SRD Slayer (9/10ths manifesting, full BAB, decent skills, lots of class abilities, and you don't have to kill a mind flayer to get in)
* Shadowcraft Mage (for its part in the Killer Gnome character)
* Dweomerkeeper (take the components out of any spell, used to get free Wishes and the like)
Abjurant Champion, Unseen Seer, Slayer and Frenzied Berzerker, but no Contemplative/MoMF/Divine Crusader?

Abjurant Champion is better than other Gish classes, but is still weaker than a straightclassed Wizard. If a straightclassed Wizard does take it, it's late enough in the game that its bonuses don't particularly matter.

Unseen Seer again, is not a big enough boost for a straight-classed wizard to be that big a deal. If the player chooses to lose a caster level in a Rogue-type class, they get bigger bonuses. This strikes me as good game design.

Slayer is just extra base attack in return for a manifester level, a feat and some skill points: Not that big a deal, particularly at the point straight-class Psions gain access to it (starting at 9th). It gains some nice abilities, but the PP and ML would be just as good or better.

Frenzied Berzerker's strong, but it doesn't really work in a party and it suffers the same problems that all melee classes do: Poor Mobility and a glaring will save weakness.

[Goumindong]

Jade Phoenix Mage is pretty sweet too, with a build-in Arcane Strike (not as good, but still), access to Devoted Spirit, and a cool capstone ability.

JPM is really really good, but i dont think i would consider it overpowered. You almost need to lose a third caster level to get into the class. Since you need Martial Manuvers.

The best abilities are the sudden empower and sudden quicken after hitting a manuver.

And the Arcane Strike is better since its +4 attack for any spell level. So you can use it to turn 0 level spells into +4 to attack on your next manuver[or +8 damage with power attack]

[Temp]

JPM is really really good, but i dont think i would consider it overpowered. You almost need to lose a third caster level to get into the class. Since you need Martial Manuvers.

The best abilities are the sudden empower and sudden quicken after hitting a manuver.

And the Arcane Strike is better since its +4 attack for any spell level. So you can use it to turn 0 level spells into +4 to attack on your next manuver[or +8 damage with power attack]To be fair, he never said it was broken, just "Sweet."

And y'know... the real Arcane Strike is a Free Action and it adds to all attacks in a round. And if you want, you can nova all your spells into one attack (damage dice, not to-hit). Not that it's a good move, but sometimes you just really need to kill something fast.

[SpikeFightwicky]

Which book has the Incantrix? I Wiki'd and Google'd it, but the only info I found was that it was from a Forgotten Realms book.

[Darrin]

Which book has the Incantrix? I Wiki'd and Google'd it, but the only info I found was that it was from a Forgotten Realms book.

Incantatrix originally appeared in Magic of Faerun, which was a 3.0 sourcebook. It's available online as an excerpt:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20010803

I don't recall if that's the version updated for 3.5, though. Looks like it's still 3.0, since it has Scry as a class skill.

[Mr. Friendly]

I think all of the obviously good PrC's are just that, good. They become broken when the DM allows certain combos to happen. Limiting PrC multiclass or more importantly, using RP to make PrCs more difficult to enter. (The Training rules are good for that)

I don't think that necessarily makes them broken by themselves.

That being said, Planar Shepherd is obviously broken on the face of it. It is without a doubt the most broken and unbalanced PrC ever made. It has it's limitations to be sure, but those penalties, restrictions and limits pale in comparison to the nigh infinite power that class has. It takes one of the most (if not the most) overpowered base classes and makes it even more broken.

[Vasdenjas]

Abjurant Champion, Unseen Seer, Slayer and Frenzied Berzerker, but no Contemplative/MoMF/Divine Crusader?

MoMF isn't overpowered IMO. I play one in a campaign right now, and the complete loss of spell-progression really hurts. Having all the different forms to turn into, and supplementing that with my Bluff and Disguise skills makes me a good spy, and very adaptable, but not particularly over-powering. The key lies in the fact that the GM controls what types of monsters you encounter, and you can't take the form of anything you haven't met yet. Once I hit 7th, I'll definitely be cooler, getting all the Extraordinary abilities of the creatures, however, none of those powers are anything that can't be duplicated by a higher level Druid spell anyways...

[deadseashoals]

Two lost spell levels =/= "Insanely good."
...Unless it's being used somehow with Sublime Chord, but then it isn't the Spellsword that's contributing.


Abjurant Champion, Unseen Seer, Slayer and Frenzied Berzerker, but no Contemplative/MoMF/Divine Crusader?

Abjurant Champion is better than other Gish classes, but is still weaker than a straightclassed Wizard. If a straightclassed Wizard does take it, it's late enough in the game that its bonuses don't particularly matter.

Unseen Seer again, is not a big enough boost for a straight-classed wizard to be that big a deal. If the player chooses to lose a caster level in a Rogue-type class, they get bigger bonuses. This strikes me as good game design.

Slayer is just extra base attack in return for a manifester level, a feat and some skill points: Not that big a deal, particularly at the point straight-class Psions gain access to it (starting at 9th). It gains some nice abilities, but the PP and ML would be just as good or better.

Frenzied Berzerker's strong, but it doesn't really work in a party and it suffers the same problems that all melee classes do: Poor Mobility and a glaring will save weakness.

Oh man, I forgot about the Master of Many Forms. Another broken class. Contemplative is pretty broken too, but just for the one level dip. I've never seen the Divine Crusader as broken, maybe you can explain that one...

Almost every class is weaker than an overplayed wizard abusing broken spells. That doesn't mean that they aren't broken. I maintain that Abjurant Champion is way too good for a gish, and that adding it to a gish build will put the character over the top.

Unseen Seer IMO has the same problem as Abjurant Champion. It's not really meant for a straight classed wizard, but it's head and shoulders above all the other rogue/wizard hybrid classes, which are already pretty good (Daggerspell Mage, Arcane Trickster, etc).

Slayer is also too good for a psi-gish. Again, it's not a class meant for straight classed psions, who don't want to lose that one ML. The Ranger 1 / Egoist 6 / Slayer 10 / Sanctified Mind 4 is the one you need to be worried about. Basically, I'm leery of any class combos that allow BAB +16 and CL/ML 17, and both the Slayer and the Abjurant Champion make that all too easy.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Druid - 5,Planar Shepherd - 10, Druid - 3, MoMF -2.

[Nebo_]

Please stop calling things broken. Pretty good != Broken.

[Stam]

Which book has the Incantrix? I Wiki'd and Google'd it, but the only info I found was that it was from a Forgotten Realms book.

It was reprinted for 3.5 in Player's Guide to Faerun.

[Vasdenjas]

Oh man, I forgot about the Master of Many Forms. Another broken class.

Ok, please explain to me what you think is broken about this class. I thought my description was fairly accurate. Planar Shepard, yeah broken. MoMF, not so much. Remember, this is not the 3.0 Shifter, who got Undead, Construct, and Outsider shapes, and their special powers, so it's toned down. But no CL porgression, Medium BAB, and everything they do can be replicated and surpassed by any high level caster with the Shapechange spell.

[Irreverent Fool]

Blue Fenix, there is no such thing as a broken PrC. No matter how much damage the class does or what its effects are, you have the ultimate balancing factor as a GM:

If the PCs can do it, so can the bad guys.

And-

What the GM says, goes.


Instead of banning PrCs, just allow the players to play what they want and balance the encounters against them accordingly. They have a Leaping Charging Power Attacking Two-Handed fighter doing 500+ points of damage per hit? So does their first main encounter, and guaranteed none of the PCs have 500 HP or enough DR to handle it. TPK? Oh well, they have to live with the balance they created for themselves. :smallbiggrin:

While I agree with this tactic for dealing with munchkins, it is NOT cool to do this to your players just because you're having trouble dealing with them. It's also VERY VERY obvious. A better way to deal with that fighter is to have a couple enemies get away from him in some fight, and inform their allies.

Next time he shows up, they have a spellcaster muck up the terrain in front of them and have three ranks of archers pepper the party with arrows. The front rank retreats to stay out of kicking distance and the difficult terrain can't be charged over.

My PCs are starting to learn that letting any of the BBEGs minons return to the boss is BAD BAD BAD BAD. (Helps for dealing with the wizard I let take the alternate class feature for conjuration specialists... man oh man I wish I hadn't let him do that... But they're getting high enough level that I can get away with having a baddie lay down a Dimensional Anchor on his butt.)

NEVER LET ANYONE TAKE THIS CLASS FEATURE. IT IS TOO GOOD WITHOUT ALTERATION. It's not even a prestige class.

[Irreverent Fool]

As a general rule, PRCs should be used to make villians out of, and not make PCs out of.

I like this. I like this a lot. I think I'm going to sharpie it onto my DM screen. When I first heard about PrCs and read which ones existed, the concept seemed clear: This hardly ever happens. PrCs should be applied rarely and only if the good and heavy roleplaying is there.

[Thinker]

I like this. I like this a lot. I think I'm going to sharpie it onto my DM screen. When I first heard about PrCs and read which ones existed, the concept seemed clear: This hardly ever happens. PrCs should be applied rarely and only if the good and heavy roleplaying is there.

They are rare because the vast majority of the world's population doesn't have PC levels and simply can't meet the prereq's of getting into a PrC. This doesn't mean it should be unreasonable for players to have access to them. :smallyuk:

[Vasdenjas]

(Helps for dealing with the wizard I let take the alternate class feature for conjuration specialists...

NEVER LET ANYONE TAKE THIS CLASS FEATURE. IT IS TOO GOOD WITHOUT ALTERATION. It's not even a prestige class.

Hey Irreverent Fool. How is it being used that makes it seem so amazing?
From what I understand:

They can teleport 10' only, no passangers.
They do so as an immediate action, so only once per round.
They can do so only INT modifier times per day (so maybe 7?)

You stated you were using archers, so they should be able to burn through any uses pretty easily, and still hit with their second/third/etc attacks. Right?

[Telonius]

Ok, please explain to me what you think is broken about this class. I thought my description was fairly accurate. Planar Shepard, yeah broken. MoMF, not so much. Remember, this is not the 3.0 Shifter, who got Undead, Construct, and Outsider shapes, and their special powers, so it's toned down. But no CL porgression, Medium BAB, and everything they do can be replicated and surpassed by any high level caster with the Shapechange spell.

3 levels of MoMF was the key to one of the Pun-Pun progressions.

[Kurald Galain]

They can teleport 10' only, no passangers.

Aside from its fun factor in getting through locked doors and the like, you don't use it to evade archers (that's what Wind Wall is for) - you use it to evade big honkin' melee attacks. Especially full attacks.

[Kaelik]

3 levels of MoMF was the key to one of the Pun-Pun progressions.

Yes, but it's perfectly possible, by never shifting into a Sarruk for the class to be very much on par with a well built member of some other class. But generally speaking, losing caster progression means that it is weaker then straight Druid.

[Vasdenjas]

3 levels of MoMF was the key to one of the Pun-Pun progressions.

That claim is ridonkulous! The key was a combination of other factors, some MUCH more cheesy than anything in MoMF.

- Divine Minion giving Wildshape at level 1 to allow for early entry into MoMF
- Assume Supernatural Ability feat
- Mostly, the obscenely poorly written Sarruhk race, and their extremely vague Manipulate Form ability, which I would argue is the main key.

[Frosty]

You get through doors with Abrupt Jaunt? Doesn't it block line of effect?

[Temp]

post 70
I think the problem was you were using "broken" to mean "more powerful than similar classes" while I was using it to refer to the game as a whole, where Wizards are commonplace.

Any lost caster levels are severe penalties without Accelerated Spellcasting progression PrCs. That's why I don't consider many classes that require caster levels to be sacrified to be "broken*."

...Also, that's why I consider the Divine Crusader over-powered. Accelerated Spellcasting Progressions of all forms negate the penalties of lost CLs.

*read:"above the power-level of a commonplace** game"

**"Commonplace" is relative.


Ok, please explain to me what you think is broken about this class. I thought my description was fairly accurate. Planar Shepard, yeah broken. MoMF, not so much.
-Basically turns Wild Shape into Polymorph.
-You can cherry-pick immunities each encounter (you have enough Wild Shapes/day to afford it)
-Fast Healing/DR whenever you like
-Cherry-pick class abilities, feats and stats as their needs arise

[Goumindong]

I like this. I like this a lot. I think I'm going to sharpie it onto my DM screen. When I first heard about PrCs and read which ones existed, the concept seemed clear: This hardly ever happens. PrCs should be applied rarely and only if the good and heavy roleplaying is there.

Yea, i hadnt really thought about it until someone was mentioning a class that I was using for my villian and how the class was underpowered.

And i was thinking "but that doesnt matter so much, since my guy is 4-5 levels higher than the party and i have complete control over equipment, stats, and the rest." Then it clicked. "Special Class progressions are most easily used for Villians to make them unique and interesting"

[Vasdenjas]

-Basically turns Wild Shape into Polymorph.
-You can cherry-pick immunities each encounter (you have enough Wild Shapes/day to afford it)
-Fast Healing/DR whenever you like
-Cherry-pick class abilities, feats and stats as their needs arise

Turns Wild Shape into Polymorph? Ok, I'm not really disputing that. So what you're saying is that giving up all your other class abilities to replicate one 4th level spell is broken?

As for cherry-picking immunities, fast healing, and DR each encounter (you also forgot SR), let's compare a Level 5 Druid/7 MoMF (which is when they get the ability to get things like DR and such), and a straight level 12 Druid.

Dr/MoMF Druid
Elemental Immunity Energetic Healing (Level 5 spell)
Energy Immunity (Level 6 spell)
Immune to mind effects Unicorn Blood (Level 5 spell)
DR Sunmantle, Ice Shield, Exalted Rainment, Stoneskin
Fast Healing Vigor, Greater Vigor, Vigorous Circle, etc

An MoMF of this level can 'cherry-pick' these 8 times per day, the Druid has a limit of spells/day.

As for your last statement, MoMFs do not get class abilities and feats (except for the odd racial feat, which is not common, and rarely useful). Stats, yes, so that's the other bonus they get in my eyes. Is that it?

[Temp]

So what you're saying is that giving up all your other class abilities to replicate one 4th level spell is broken?In the case of Polymorph, yes.

An MoMF of this level can 'cherry-pick' these 8 times per day, the Druid has a limit of spells/day.
The Master of Many Forms has more flexability than a Druid. MoMFs don't need to prepare spells and aren't limited by spellcasting abilities.

Here's (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=639448) a thread that lists most of their options. And realize it only takes a Standard action for them to entirely revise their combat abilities and tactics once a problem arises.


Yes, they can be reasonable--underpowered, even--in some players' hands, but the sheer versatility and the massive codex creep intrinsic to the class are significant flaws to its balance.

[Telonius]

Ack, gotta read all the posts before I reply ... nothing to see here, move along.

[deadseashoals]

Hey Irreverent Fool. How is it being used that makes it seem so amazing?
From what I understand:

They can teleport 10' only, no passangers.
They do so as an immediate action, so only once per round.
They can do so only INT modifier times per day (so maybe 7?)

You stated you were using archers, so they should be able to burn through any uses pretty easily, and still hit with their second/third/etc attacks. Right?

It's pretty unfair that the wizard just has to give up his familiar, something nearly useless, and specialize in Conjuration, which is something awesome anyway. The ability he gains far exceeds the power that he lost.

The ability itself is also a major pain in the ass. The wizard has so many tricks already to avoid taking any damage, that it allowing this one really puts him over the top. It makes him immune to all sorts of things (AoE, full round attacks, charge attacks). For the low, low price of a familiar. Which is basically a feat (Acquire Familiar).

To the person who is defending the Master of Many Forms:

MoMF is broken because polymorph is broken, and Improved Wild Shape is polymorph plus. It can be replicated by shapechange, this is true, but most games don't go until level 17. MoMF hits its sweet spot around the latter part of most games, and is pretty good even before then. Also, shapechange is broken. Saying something is less good than shapechange does not make it not broken.

Maybe it's not broken in your game, because you don't abuse it. That's great, I salute that, but it's still a broken class.


I think the problem was you were using "broken" to mean "more powerful than similar classes" while I was using it to refer to the game as a whole, where Wizards are commonplace.

Any lost caster levels are severe penalties without Accelerated Spellcasting progression PrCs. That's why I don't consider many classes that require caster levels to be sacrified to be "broken*."

...Also, that's why I consider the Divine Crusader over-powered. Accelerated Spellcasting Progressions of all forms negate the penalties of lost CLs.

*read:"above the power-level of a commonplace** game"

**"Commonplace" is relative.

What's the bar, then? You can't just say only Clerics, Druids, Wizards, Sorcerers, Psions, and PrCs that advance spellcasting fully for those classes are broken.

In spite of what the ten commandments of optimization say, for a multi-purpose character, it's okay to lose a caster level. Even multiple. Hey, check it out - what would you rather play, a character with spells as an 18th level wizard, the caster level of a 20th level wizard, the BAB of a 18th level fighter, and the saves of a multiclassed beast, or... a Wizard?

Hey, what would you rather play, a melee class with 9th level maneuvers, or a melee class with 9th level spells/powers?

Also, regarding the Divine Crusader - It only gets spells from a domain, right? So one spell known per level, is that really so terrible if that progression gets jumped? The worst they could do is probably Luck domain, and you're still better off with a regular Cleric.

[Temp]

What's the bar, then? You can't just say only Clerics, Druids, Wizards, Sorcerers, Psions, and PrCs that advance spellcasting fully for those classes are broken.

In spite of what the ten commandments of optimization say, for a multi-purpose character, it's okay to lose a caster level. Even multiple. Hey, check it out - what would you rather play, a character with spells as an 18th level wizard, the caster level of a 20th level wizard, the BAB of a 18th level fighter, and the saves of a multiclassed beast, or... a Wizard?
They're going to be balanced against each other in actual play. The Gish will be two caster levels below the wizard until 20th level, casting a full spell level lower, and by the point he hits 20th level, everything that isn't spellcasting is basically irrelevant anyway.


Hey, what would you rather play, a melee class with 9th level maneuvers, or a melee class with 9th level spells/powers?This isn't relevant. Both are competing with the Wizard and the Cleric.


Also, regarding the Divine Crusader - It only gets spells from a domain, right? So one spell known per level, is that really so terrible if that progression gets jumped? The worst they could do is probably Luck domain, and you're still better off with a regular Cleric.But they have levels to spare to advance their spellcasting indirectly (Heirophant, for instance) that can push their spells beyond most Clerics. And for the worst domains for them to pick? Think more along the lines of Spell or Shadow which aren't overly restricted by single-domain limit.

[deadseashoals]

They're going to be balanced against each other in actual play. The Gish will be two caster levels below the wizard until 20th level, casting a full spell level lower, and by the point he hits 20th level, everything that isn't spellcasting is basically irrelevant anyway.

This isn't relevant. Both are competing with the Wizard and the Cleric.

But they have levels to spare to advance their spellcasting indirectly (Heirophant, for instance) that can push their spells beyond most Clerics. And for the worst domains for them to pick? Think more along the lines of Spell or Shadow which aren't overly restricted by single-domain limit.

I see, I can see the Divine Crusader being broken in a limited sense then. I'm not sure how it would pan out level by level vs. a Cleric, since they start slower, they have fewer spells, and they're inherently at a disadvantage in terms of caster level (they need Hierophant to play catch up).

The gish and all other hybrid classes need to be compared with their poor friends, the fighters and the rogues. Not those exact classes per se, but those archetypes.

There's a reason that Abjurant Champion makes it into every single gish build since the release of Complete Mage. It's just better. It's so much better than every other gish class, it's ridiculous. The amount that it powers up gishes puts them way over any other melee character. If you allow the Abjurant Champion, the Unseen Seer, or the Slayer, you are basically limiting the spectrum of characters that won't be outshone to:

* Full casters (cleric, druid, wizard, sorcerer, wilder, psion, archivist, artificer)
* Abjurant Champions
* Unseen Seers
* Slayers

Any skill monkey without Unseen Seer would be better with Unseen Seer.

Any melee tank/damage dealer without Abjurant Champion or Slayer would be better with one of those two classes.

If that's not a broken class, I don't know what is.

[Illiterate Scribe]

What's this about a planar bubble spell?

Woah. I just checked, and it's worse than I thought:

planar bubble:
SpC 158
abjuration
cleric 7, sorcerer/wizard 7
touch
area


:smalleek:

[Temp]

There's a reason that Abjurant Champion makes it into every single gish build since the release of Complete Mage. It's just better. It's so much better than every other gish class, it's ridiculous. The amount that it powers up gishes puts them way over any other melee character. If you allow the Abjurant Champion, the Unseen Seer, or the Slayer, you are basically limiting the spectrum of characters that won't be outshone to:

* Full casters (cleric, druid, wizard, sorcerer, wilder, psion, archivist, artificer)
* Abjurant Champions
* Unseen Seers
* Slayers

That's... how the game already was (minus the possibility of a faithless melee character).

[Dode]

What I don't get about Abjurant Champion is that since there is no drawback and the reqs are practically non-existant that there's no real reason why a straight Wizard/Sorcerer wouldn't just take 5 levels in it anyway? Now full-casters have access to a class that gives them full BAB of all things.

[JoshuaZ]

But mere mortals are exceptionally gifted at doing it without the gods noticing. Because... uh... gods... are... uh... :smallconfused:

Because the deities don't care because it is so little power that they don't need to worry about it? The slightly more interesting explanation (which at some point if I ever DM I'd like to use) is that the Ur-Priests are using extra energy that would be leaked anyways. It isn't precisely the canonical flavor but it works.

[Temp]

What I don't get about Abjurant Champion is that since there is no drawback and the reqs are practically non-existant that there's no real reason why a straight Wizard/Sorcerer wouldn't just take 5 levels in it anyway? Now full-casters have access to a class that gives them full BAB of all things. They can "just take it," only they don't have as much to gain. At the point they gain entry, they're already starting to Quicken half their spells and AC is starting to become more and more irrevelant. So it doesn't actually change much for the full casting classes.

But anything else can take it for five levels and come out drastically more competetive in the high-level game.

And 5 levels of full BA/d10 HD isn't as much a boost for them as anything much lower is a massive nerf for melee fighters.

[Swooper]

What I don't get about Abjurant Champion is that since there is no drawback and the reqs are practically non-existant that there's no real reason why a straight Wizard/Sorcerer wouldn't just take 5 levels in it anyway? Now full-casters have access to a class that gives them full BAB of all things.
Because there are much better full casting PrCs out there.

Now, I just remembered something... isn't there a horrible way to squeeze cheese out of the Master Transmogrifist (CArc)? In particular, the capstone ability to merge abilities of forms... I remember a thread on CharOp about it, but I can't remember how broken exactly it could get.

[Temp]

Now, I just remembered something... isn't there a horrible way to squeeze cheese out of the Master Transmogrifist (CArc)? In particular, the capstone ability to merge abilities of forms... I remember a thread on CharOp about it, but I can't remember how broken exactly it could get.The fact that it takes Polymorph and makes it better frightens me too much for me to have ever looked into that class in great detail.


...But now that I think of it, does MT get an ability to stack non-casting levels with caster levels for the purposes of Polymorph? 'Be a bit ironic if it didn't.

[Zincorium]

I'd definitely put Fochlucan lyricist up as overpowered if the requirements didn't force you to spread the character out so much: Full BAB, dual full caster progression, relaxing of druid anti-armor regs, and progression of bardic abilities.

The problem is, making it really good requires cheese (ur-priest, sublime chord) well in excess of the class itself.

[deadseashoals]

Woah. I just checked, and it's worse than I thought:

planar bubble:
SpC 158
abjuration
cleric 7, sorcerer/wizard 7
touch
area


:smalleek:

Ah, so it does exist. I just read it... How do you abuse this spell? It says the bubble hits a creature, and affects the area with the traits of the targeted creature's native plane. So... You're going to need a native of the plane in question. Which rules out genesis cheese, so in order to get 10:1 time, you're going to have to play in Eberron, and basically drag around a quori that's been hit with a temporal stasis in order to gain accelerated time. Getting yourself one of those as a garden gnome might be a bit of a challenge, given the nature of Dal Quor.

[tyckspoon]

Ah, so it does exist. I just read it... How do you abuse this spell? It says the bubble hits a creature, and affects the area with the traits of the targeted creature's native plane. So... You're going to need a native of the plane in question. Which rules out genesis cheese, so in order to get 10:1 time, you're going to have to play in Eberron, and basically drag around a quori that's been hit with a temporal stasis in order to gain accelerated time. Getting yourself one of those as a garden gnome might be a bit of a challenge, given the nature of Dal Quor.

The cheese is the Planar Shepherd's class ability of the same name. It's a little different- the Planar Shepherd chooses a plane to be attuned to when he takes the class, and all of his class features do things related to the plane. One of his abilities lets him manifest a bubble of his chosen plane's traits. It's like if he was able to count as a native of Dal Quor for the purposes of the Planar Bubble spell.

[deadseashoals]

The cheese is the Planar Shepherd's class ability of the same name. It's a little different- the Planar Shepherd chooses a plane to be attuned to when he takes the class, and all of his class features do things related to the plane. One of his abilities lets him manifest a bubble of his chosen plane's traits. It's like if he was able to count as a native of Dal Quor for the purposes of the Planar Bubble spell.

I know how you abuse the Planar Shepherd's ability, but how do you abuse the spell by the same name?

[tyckspoon]

Oh. I don't know. Since the thread is about prestige classes, I figured most if not all references to Planar Bubble were about the Planar Shepherd's ability.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Oh, new entry. Effigy master. Want a cyber umbral blot? In time, you'll get it, and before that, have a mech-tarrasque.

[tyckspoon]

Oh, new entry. Effigy master. Want a cyber umbral blot? In time, you'll get it, and before that, have a mech-tarrasque.

You're aware that effigies aren't unique to the Effigy Master, aren't you? Anybody with Craft Construct can make one. The Effigy Master's class features don't even make his effigies especially superior to any other person's effigies. He can add his class level to caster level to determine how many HD he can put on an effigy, but he still has to pay for the extra HD.

As far as mecha-tarrasques go..


Creating an effigy creature requires a minimum caster level equal to the creature's hit dice.

Tarrasque's got 48 HD. Good luck with that.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Lemme unearth that feat from Dragon which let you double your class modifier...

On second thought, no, better not do it. Too much evil.


Now, adding your class level (only effigy master, thank god) jumps you 5 HD forward by the end of the class, you know that? You also know this means duplicating some particularly powerful monsters, with extra perks, much earlier than normal? If that's not broken, I don't know what it is.

I might also point out effigies are unique to the effigy master.

[tyckspoon]

4 HD, actually- the Effigy Master is 4/5 casting progression. You can make that up with Practiced Spellcaster if that last HD is really important, I guess.


Lemme unearth that feat from Dragon which let you double your class modifier...

Right, that's just getting dumb. Although probably not functionally worse than anything else you could do with caster level-pumping tricks.. anyway, there's a reason Dragon is the most commonly-barred source I've seen mentioned (well, other then 'Core Only.')



You also know this means duplicating some particularly powerful monsters, with extra perks, much earlier than normal? If that's not broken, I don't know what it is.


If the power and perks come from "Supernatural special attacks, spell-like abilities, and extraordinary special attacks based on Constitution", then it's not broken. Likewise if the creature is tough because of its Special Qualities- making an Effigy version of it removes all of those. What it gets in return is damage reduction/adamantine and becoming Construct type. Now, Construct is a nice set of traits to have, but it's also likely to kill the critter's HP, because becoming a construct removes its Con.

There was an attempt to break effigies I saw on the Wizards boards, but that revolved around making an effigy of something with as many non-HD increasing templates as you could find, which strikes me as an exercise your DM will throw a book at you for.

Oh, and just for the heck of it- even if you can get enough caster levels to meet the HD requirement, you couldn't make an Umbral Blot. Constructs aren't a valid base type to effigize.

[Zincorium]

I might also point out effigies are unique to the effigy master.

And you should be glad you didn't point that out. Because it's incorrect.

Page 153 of complete arcane. You either need the effigy master class OR the craft construct feat. Which is in the monster manual, page 303. This is the same one that lets you make golems.

So recognizing that you don't actually need the effigy master class, it's really the effigies themselves that are broken, not the class.

[Dode]

As far as mecha-tarrasques go..
Tarrasque's got 48 HD. Good luck with that.
Oh, and Regeneration (The Tarrasque's most fearsome attribute) is a Special Quality and requires a Con score, which Effigies lose. Also gone would be the Tarrasque's carapace, SR and DR/Epic. Sounds like a waste of a 48th level caster's time.
Incidentally, that also eliminates breath weapons and poisons. And their charisma is demoted to 1, so there goes any effective Gaze attacks, Frightful Presences and Spell-Like Abilities. They lose all Special Qualities, which is where the significant cheese lies too, instead getting some mediocre DR.

The only real good templates for Effigies are purely physical creatures that make up for low/no special qualities by sheer physical strength - ie: animals, magical beasts and specific aberrations. Considering the investment in XP, feats and caster level it takes, I'd say Effigy Master is quite balanced.

[bugsysservant]

The only real good templates for Effigies are purely physical creatures that make up for low/no special qualities by sheer physical strength - ie: animals, magical beasts and specific aberrations. Considering the investment in XP, feats and caster level it takes, I'd say Effigy Master is quite balanced.

Well, there is a build that stacks +0 templates onto an effigy, making it incredibly powerful, than magic jars the caster into the creature or something like that, but otherwise I would agree with you.

[tyckspoon]

Dragons are also valid, although true dragons usually have abnormally high HD, so you need higher caster level and pay more, but they're physically impressive. The BAB and saves drop because of the switch to Construct, but if can make an effigy of an old and large enough dragon you can get access to that tasty bite/claw/claw/wing/tail attack routine.

Vermin are also valid; build a Damn Crab.

[Dode]

Eh, a Effigy Roper, Otuyugh or Pegasus could be a real jewel.
An Effigy Grimlock or Yrthak, that is blind without SQ: Blindsight... is not so good.

[TheOOB]

The first four levels of fatespinner are pretty nasty with pretty much no drawback, improving the save DC on your save or die spells is always potent.

[Reinboom]

For the effects of "free" Prestige classes with bonuses completely superior to what they replace... Ruathar from Races of the Wild. Though not that much better and not a glaringly "overpowered" class, it still gives free stuff.

[EntilZha]

As I understand it, Frenzied Beserker (Complete Warrior) is apparently very powerful.

Let's see...if you Rage AND Frenzy, you become a nigh-unstoppable killing machine.

Yes it is very powerful. I played a Barbarian/Frenzied Berserker once and it was A LOT of fun. :smallbiggrin: You've got to burn feats on Intimidating Rage and Destructive Rage to qualify though.