AT falling behind...Help?

[carrdrivesyou]

So, my arcane trickster is failing in the combat department, despite having decent stats and equipment. He was designed as a skill monkey, and I've played the class before. Even with a revolver, he's doing terrible. Any thoughts on how to fix this guy?

[Zhorn]

More info required;

Level range of the party?
Falling behind compared to what party composition?
Standard choice of go-to actions in combat?

[Unoriginal]

So, my arcane trickster is failing in the combat department, despite having decent stats and equipment. He was designed as a skill monkey, and I've played the class before. Even with a revolver, he's doing terrible. Any thoughts on how to fix this guy?

I mean if he's designed as a skill monkey, isn't it normal that he's failing behind in the areas he's not specialized in?

What is your position on multiclassing? A few levels in Fighter would make your Arcane Trickster much more combat-capable.

And since as an AT your PC's INT is probably pretty nice, going Psi Warrior could be very worthwhile.

[Greywander]

Agreed, we need more info.

Something to note: at 9th level you get Magical Ambush, giving creatures disadvantage on spell saves if you're hidden from them (reminder that you can hide as a BA). This can dramatically change how you play an AT, switching from pure damage via Sneak Attack to debuffer or controller. Sure, you don't have full casting so you don't have the really good spells, but the enchantment and illusion schools have a lot of good control spells such as Hold Person, Phantasmal Force, or Hypnotic Pattern, not to mention off-school spells like Web.

If you're having trouble keeping up in damage, maybe look at your spell selection and see if you might need to swap some spells to move away from pure damage.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Also, not enough info.
Step 1 would be get Find Familiar to make sure you get sneak attack every round.
I know you mentioned revolver, but as you level up Booming Blade can be good too.
Hard to give more advise without more info.

[carrdrivesyou]

We are level 7. Party is:

My human AT
Dwarf battle Smith artificer
Human beast barbarian
Elf grave cleric
Halfling necromancer

We have a boatload of pets.
My stats are 10, 16, 12, 16, 14, 10

Edit: I am looking to deal more damage more reliably. I have the sharpshooter feat, and the revolver is a homebrew that deals 2d4 plus Dex.

[Damon_Tor]

We are level 7. Party is:

My human AT
Dwarf battle Smith artificer
Human beast barbarian
Elf grave cleric
Halfling necromancer

We have a boatload of pets.
My stats are 10, 16, 12, 16, 14, 10

Edit: I am looking to deal more damage more reliably. I have the sharpshooter feat, and the revolver is a homebrew that deals 2d4 plus Dex.

Well it looks like your first problem is that you took sharpshooter over +2 dex. It's a bad choice on a rogue unless you've got other effects that improve your accuracy. You lost out on +1 to attacks, damage, AC and initiative for a ~33% reduced chance of landing your sneak attack.

As an AT your best bet for direct damage is Shadow Blade plus Booming Blade: trying to be a ranged character is a mistake for your subclass. Skirmish, use disengage to move in and out of combat, deal more damage than any other rogue has access to. Have your cleric friend use Thaumaturgy to dim all the lights to give you easy advantage due to Shadow Blade's special property.

[Rara1212]

We are level 7. Party is:

My human AT
Dwarf battle Smith artificer
Human beast barbarian
Elf grave cleric
Halfling necromancer

We have a boatload of pets.
My stats are 10, 16, 12, 16, 14, 10

Edit: I am looking to deal more damage more reliably. I have the sharpshooter feat, and the revolver is a homebrew that deals 2d4 plus Dex.
Sharpshooter is a lot worse for Rogues that other ranged characters, as they both have less attacks and high damage riding on that single attack.
Is the Revolver a onehanded rangedweapon, and do you need to reload it(i.e. is it like a hand crossbow?). Also, does it do piercing damage?


If you are using Tasha's you can use Steady Aim to get advantage most of the time, which both gives you better chance to hit, and lets you choose targets easier(as you don't need an ally next to the enemy)

Are you Vhuman or normal Human?
Either way, see if your DM would let you replace Sharpshooter with another feat. See if they let you take Elven Accuracy, even though it's Elven exclusive. If they let you, at 8 you can pick either Piercer or Gunner(both can give you +1 dex to round out the +1 you got from EA)
If they don't let you take EA, picking the other 2 feats still works well.

[Greywander]

Are you reliably either (a) casting a useful spell, or (b) getting Sneak Attack damage, every round? 2d4 + 4d6 + DEX mod isn't bad damage, that's 22 damage average, at 7th level. If you feel comfortable using Sharpshooter, that could be 32 damage average. What kind of damage are your teammates doing, and what do you usually do on your turns?

Archery fighting style would help here. You can dip one level into fighter (or two into ranger), or grab it via a feat. Rogues especially want to make sure they hit so they can deal that Sneak Attack damage. Make sure to push DEX to 20 as soon as you can as well.

I'm not really sure what you could do for a revolver, specifically. Typically, ranged rogue builds are either long range longbow snipers or close quarters Crossbow Experts. The latter gives you a bonus action attack, which not only gives a small but appreciated damage boost, it also helps insure you get your Sneak Attack in, which gradually becomes the bulk of your damage. Melee rogues can pick up Booming Blade and get a small damage boost that way, which combos nicely with the Mobile feat allowing you to use hit-and-run tactics: either they chase you and take even more damage, or they stay put and use whatever ranged option they may (or may not) have.

Edit: One more thing I thought of; while I wouldn't recommend it, you could dip one level into genielock for Genie's Wrath, adding your proficiency bonus to the damage of one attack per round. You even get to choose whether that damage is fire, cold, bludgeoning, or thunder, which is cool. That said, if you dip into warlock, you'd probably find Hexblade's Curse to be more useful. Of course, you'd need 13 CHA to dip warlock, though a charitable DM might waive that (I would, I don't care for the multiclassing restrictions).

[king_steve]

Edit: One more thing I thought of; while I wouldn't recommend it, you could dip one level into genielock for Genie's Wrath, adding your proficiency bonus to the damage of one attack per round. You even get to choose whether that damage is fire, cold, bludgeoning, or thunder, which is cool. That said, if you dip into warlock, you'd probably find Hexblade's Curse to be more useful. Of course, you'd need 13 CHA to dip warlock, though a charitable DM might waive that (I would, I don't care for the multiclassing restrictions).

With 14 WIS and 10 CHA I think it might be better to do a 2 level dip into cleric. War cleric gives a +10 hit bonus with their channel divinity and WIS mod attacks as a bonus action. I’m not sure how their revolver works so that might not matter, but it could be useful for ranged longbow attacks for example. They also get Divine Favor (+1d4 dmg per weapon attack) that doesn’t require a bonus action to move like Hunters Mark or Hex, which can be helpful since rogues have a lot of bonus actions already. The level or two of a full caster can help with spell slots and you can pick up guidance to help with skill checks.

I wouldn’t dip out until after you get Reliable Talent though, or I’d really think about it at least.

Other cleric domains could work as well, but war does synergies with sharpshooter. Trickery, knowledge and arcana could also work well for an AT.

[Dork_Forge]

I think some clarity is needed here, how did you determine stats and what human are you using? It doesn't look like you took an ASI at 4th level, but your statline doesn't look good enough to be vanilla human either...

Depending how your DM is, I would ask to swap out Sharpshooter unless the revolver has a really terrible range on it. Failing that a Fighter dip would be your swiftest remedy:

Fighter 1: Archery

Fighter 2: Action Surge (attack again for misses or hold attack for off turn sneak)

Fighter 3: As always Battlemaster is great here, but with a 16 INT I second Unoriginal that Psi Warrior would prove nice for you

[Randomthom]

Sharpshooter is great for Rogue but not for the -5/+10, mostly for the range/cover benefits.

As a rogue you want to be hitting reliably to make sure you land your sneak attack. If you're using a hand crossbow, think about the crossbow expert feat since you can fire it twice per round (using bonus action) when you've already got advantage from another source.

As others have said, Fighter is a good way to progress from where you are but my advice would be to push for lvl 9 AT for magical ambush. From there, it depends on your expectations for the campaign. If you expect it to reach high levels then consider Bladesinger Wizard, it'll dovetail nicely with magical ambush and open up your options.

Also consider that not everyone is equal in all areas of the game. You might fall behind the Barbarian in combat but your skills (and spells) open many doors he cannot, literally and figuratively.

[da newt]

You can always use your BA offhand attack to throw a dagger. You won't get your + DEX damage mod, and it will burn your BA, but if you miss with your revolver you can still get your SA damage if you have an ally in melee w/ your target.

(assuming your gun doesn't require a freehand to reload every round)

[5eNeedsDarksun]

We are level 7. Party is:

My human AT
Dwarf battle Smith artificer
Human beast barbarian
Elf grave cleric
Halfling necromancer

We have a boatload of pets.
My stats are 10, 16, 12, 16, 14, 10

Edit: I am looking to deal more damage more reliably. I have the sharpshooter feat, and the revolver is a homebrew that deals 2d4 plus Dex.

OK, that helps,
Largely agree with what others have said. AT is really built to be a melee character without taking a feat, so you can reliably pump Dex.
Booming Blade + Find Familar + Disengage = Advantage to hit and Bonus damage.
For sure if you find yourself at range as another poster said, chuck dagger with off hand, which has little base damage, but will give you a 2nd chance to get your sneak attack in. The -5/+10 thing generally gets worse as you level since you are risking losing more damage vs. the static +10.
The only other thing I'd ask: Are you scouting ahead and getting a surprise attack before combat at least somewhat regularly? This is somewhat DM and terrain dependent, but if you can make an impact on combat before it starts that should add to your effectiveness.

[Greywander]

You can always use your BA offhand attack to throw a dagger. You won't get your + DEX damage mod, and it will burn your BA, but if you miss with your revolver you can still get your SA damage if you have an ally in melee w/ your target.

(assuming your gun doesn't require a freehand to reload every round)
This doesn't work, TWF requires light melee weapons, and the revolver is (I assume) not a melee weapon.

If this did work, though, reloading wouldn't be the problem. You're holding a revolver in one hand while the other is empty. You shoot and load the revolver, then you draw and throw the dagger. You hand is free the whole time except when throwing the dagger. Personally, though, I think it defeats the purpose of a one-handed ranged weapon if you need a second hand to load it, regardless of what the errata says.

[da newt]

This doesn't work, TWF requires light melee weapons, and the revolver is (I assume) not a melee weapon.


Crap - true.

[carrdrivesyou]

I ran some of these ideas past the DM, and she is letting me use shadow blade as an offhand weapon alongside my revolver. So that mostly mitigates my issue. Now I am twice as likely to hit. I also got a +1 enchant on the gun to help out.

Thanks for the ideas folks! Yall are awesome!

[Unoriginal]

I ran some of these ideas past the DM, and she is letting me use shadow blade as an offhand weapon alongside my revolver. So that mostly mitigates my issue. Now I am twice as likely to hit. I also got a +1 enchant on the gun to help out.

Thanks for the ideas folks! Yall are awesome!

Offhand weapons only matter if you attack with both weapons on the same turn, so you should have a net increase in damage output.

[Keravath]

The key to reliable rogue damage is obtaining advantage on every attack possible.

You should almost never use the -5/+10 option of sharpshooter unless you have already landed your sneak attack that turn. It is a good feat for the cover and range benefits but forget the damage ... which often means (depending on your weapon) that you are better off boosting dex.

If you are a melee rogue, it is harder to get advantage but a melee AT can use shadow blade (especially good in dim light or darkness for auto advantage) + booming blade.

I don't see any benefit to pistol+shadow blade. The pistol is a ranged weapon with disadvantage to attack when you have an opponent within 5', while shadow blade is a melee weapon attack. Trying to use both at the same time won't work very well. You would need the Xbow expert feat to fire adjacent without disadvantage.

Good ways to get advantage:
- find familiar using the help action - since a rogue usually has 1 attack this is a good start
- Steady aim feature from Tasha's
- bonus action hide - if there is cover available
- shadowblade

Other ways that require team work or multiclassing
- 3 levels of gloomstalker for invisibility in darkness (and darkvision if you don't have it) - 5 levels if you want extra attack
- some one casting faerie fire
- warlock multiclass for darkness + devils sight - choose fae warlock for faerie fire spell (devils sight is great for any rogue since it lets you spot traps and notice everything even in complete darkness - no disadvantage to perception when using darkvision)

There are a few 1/SR or LR abilities I've left out since they aren't really useful for a rogue - since the rogue needs to try to have advantage on every attack every round.

If a rogue can't land sneak attack every turn their damage falls well behind any other martial.

Finally, a 1 level fighter multiclass for the archery fighting style or alternatively taking the fighting style feat from Tasha's will also increase your chance to hit.

With a rogue, doing damage is all about hitting with sneak attack - it isn't about having more attacks to make (unless your first attack misses). This is why melee rogues often use TWF since the second attack is comparable to having advantage on a single attack roll (you lose the dex bonus damage - but it is the sneak attack damage that is the larger component of the damage anyway).

[Stangler]

In case no one said it already, rogues have more consistent damage progress than other martial classes that progress in big chunks(lvl 5 and extra attack for example) So they will catch up as you pump levels into rogue.

Rogues also get great skills so their role isn’t just damage and they will often outshine others outside of combat.

Rogues really want advantage and a bonus action attack which means dual wielding or x bow expert.

If you check those boxes a AT will be a solid player in a party. There are certainly optimised builds that will out perform you and full spell casters have tons of tricks to use but you should be fine.