Party of Two, Point Buy 36?

[Farrian]

Recently began setting up a game to run with my two friends, they get to be the dynamic duo sort of characters. But I've never played in a DnD group with less than 4 people, let alone dm'd one. I plan on using point buy. I know 36 is hardly ever used as it makes some pretty strong charas, but I almost feel it'll be necessary as they are a two man party against the entirety of DnD monster roster. Any suggestions?
Edit - Accidently called point buy, stat array.

[GooeyChewie]

The biggest issue your duo will face is not ability scores; it's action economy. With only two characters, they could easily get overwhelmed by a decent-sized group of enemies, simply because there's only so much they can do in each round. So, some possibilities...

-Let them run two characters each. Not every player feels confident enough to run two characters at once, so make sure your players are on board if you want to go this route.

OR

-Give each character two turns each round (roll initiative twice, use both). This method can really make the characters feel like superheroes. The players are less likely to balk at this one, but it's still best to run the idea past them before implementing it.

OR

-Don't change anything, and make sure to build encounters with lower numbers of enemies.

[Amnestic]

It's not the solution I'd have for a small party. Extra stats are nice, but it really only means that MAD classes get a leg up, more SAD classes won't really 'need' them.

Another alternative to the ones posted above is to go the Gestalt route, giving them essentially two classes at once. It won't give them any extra actions (so action economy is still a major limiter) but it can help them extend expendable resources throughout the adventuring day - extra spell slots, extra short/long rest things, more proficiencies in skills to round out the 'team', that sorta thing.

[JonBeowulf]

What GooeyChewie said plus be careful with enemy control spells. A single failed save can TPK those two.

[Twelvetrees]

Like other posters mention, the action economy is going to be important to keep an eye on. If a character drops to 0 hit points in a fight, the odds against the remaining party member get much worse. A fight balanced for two characters will almost certainly be overwhelming for one character.

Make sure they've got options to keep each other on their feet.

I'm also a fan of the gestalt rules that Amnestic suggested. It gives a small party some much needed versatility.

[Foxydono]

I agree with most that economie is the bottleneck. However, this also makes sessions and battles resolve quickly. I personally would't change it. It just means players need to be smart and mobile. Better stats give them more survivability and it also means they can multiclass easier.

This is important, because they need to fullfill multiple rolls within the party. You can also consider giving then a free feat with DM approval. Extra skills+expertise is a solid choice.

[MaxWilson]

The biggest issue your duo will face is not ability scores; it's action economy. With only two characters, they could easily get overwhelmed by a decent-sized group of enemies, simply because there's only so much they can do in each round. So, some possibilities...

-Let them run two characters each. Not every player feels confident enough to run two characters at once, so make sure your players are on board if you want to go this route.

OR

-Give each character two turns each round (roll initiative twice, use both). This method can really make the characters feel like superheroes. The players are less likely to balk at this one, but it's still best to run the idea past them before implementing it.

OR

-Don't change anything, and make sure to build encounters with lower numbers of enemies.

OR give them access to NPC hirelings/allies at different points. DM roleplays them, but players may run them during combats, within reason.

During one adventure a 5th level Beastmaster joins them to help fight oppressive hobgoblins who have taken over the local population centers. The rebel ranger can supply stealth (Pass Without Trace), healing (Goodberry/Healing Spirit), and intelligence (Beast Sense, and a trained Flying Snake with blindsense). He can't beat the hobgoblins by himself but he can direct the PCs to vulnerable targets where there are only a few hobgoblins at a time. Together they can make this rebellion work, maybe, as long as the hobgoblins don't escalate or retaliate or entrap. Yeah right.

During another adventure they can hire the half-witted town drunk, Elmo, to help dig for treasures with them, for a small share of the treasure. He's a 3rd level Fighter (Champion) and he's very willing to wear chain mail and stand between them and danger swinging a big sword, shouting at the top of his lungs. But he needs them to tell him where to stand and when to run instead of fighting.

During another adventure they've given a commission by a great wizard to gather rare spell components like basilisk feathers and mummy tears, who sends his 7th level ex-apprentice along with them to supervise quality assurance. The commission turns out to be deadlier than anticipated when a trio of Purple Worms move into the region and start eating townspeople. The QA wizard freaks out--he's never been in personal danger before--and needs the PCs to tell him how to use his spells and what to do to not get eaten too.

[stoutstien]

Depends on the players. Sometimes smaller parties are more effective. I recently ran 2 players through decent with no changes to the content and they didn't really get in over their head. They did have some temporary hired help here and there but for the most part PCs really are that strong.

[Foxydono]

OR give them access to NPC hirelings/allies at different points. DM roleplays them, but players may run them during combats, within reason.
I think one of the charms of a two or three man party is that you don't have all the skills that a full party would has, so you need to be smart and creative. Being with only two also has its advantages: You are very mobile and decision/combat is much faster.

If you add more characters, you make is easier sure, but you take away much of the fun and charm of a two-man party. Take a gloomstalker 5/scout rogue x and a hexblade 2/lore bard x. You have control, versitility, stealth, damage and a bit of tank. Of course there are many good choices depending on the campaign, but my point is: make the two characters stronger and don't add more (bonus)actions or (npc) characters. Just my two cents :)

[MaxWilson]

I think one of the charms of a two or three man party is that you don't have all the skills that a full party would has, so you need to be smart and creative. Being with only two also has its advantages: You are very mobile and decision/combat is much faster.

If you add more characters, you make is easier sure, but you take away much of the fun and charm of a two-man party. Take a gloomstalker 5/scout rogue x and a hexblade 2/lore bard x. You have control, versitility, stealth, damage and a bit of tank. Of course there are many good choices depending on the campaign, but my point is: make the two characters stronger and don't add more (bonus)actions or (npc) characters. Just my two cents :)

It's great to have NPCs interact with players to go "Wow!" and "Thanks heroes!" but my experience is that my players' favorite way to interact with NPCs is to co-opt them for their own use. For many NPCs this may just mean information sharing ("sure, I'll keep an eye on Mordred for you and let you know if he leaves town") or simple assistance ("I will hide you from the Sheriff's men, come quickly to my barn") but players (in my experience) love it when the NPC has useful skills too. In your Gloomscout + Bardlock example I imagine that they'd still love having access to e.g. a 5th level Divine Soul for Cure Wounds/Augury/Bless/Revivify/etc., even if they keep him in a safe(r) location and don't bring him along when scouting.

I'm generalizing from a small number of examples (my personal experience) so other players could be different and hate it when NPCs are useful. Know your players I guess.

[Farrian]

Thank you everyone for replying so far and quickly.
I like the suggestion of multi-turns per round, it seems the best all-round way of making sure if crap hits the fan, IE a bad roll, they have the chance to recover.
I'd also like someone to explain the Gestalt idea a bit more in depth to me, I'm not familiar with that and would like to know how it works.
As for the hirelings, I should explain something. The main part of the campagin, mainly where most of the combat happens is inside a dungeon designed by a "God of Games" who has placed down certain rules that the players of his game must follow (game-ception), one of the rules is the players can only group up in pairs of two. This doesnt however completely rid the idea of hirelings, cause there will be stuff outside the dungeon to do, but it doesn't really help them where they would need it most.
And lvl 1 feats have already been allowed, my players know this, although I'm not controlling their choice of the feat.
And I know as a dm it's my responsibility to design reasonable encounters, and alter the numbers occasionally for a balanced game play. I'd like to do alot of weak enemies or the occasionally solo super strong baddie to diverse the combat as well as always supplying the feeling of the fact the dungeon is "no hold bars" type of place.

[KorvinStarmast]

Have them create and run two characters each. That way, they get to try out different skills and abilities.

You'll have 4 PCs, and likely a good spread of skills and abilities.

I've been doing this for, literally, years. Since AD&D 1e days. It works fine. That is the simplest, cleanest, solution.

For an almost as clean solution, give each on a side kick.
Two PCs, each with a best buddy/spouse/cousin/whatever sidekick. (Per Tasha's if you have it).

And off you go. Problem sorted. I'd suggest a 29 point buy, but that's just me.

[Twelvetrees]

Gestalt comes from 3.5 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm)and involves a character gaining the class features of two classes at once. Shared features, like hit points, use the better value.

5e doesn't have rules for it, but it's pretty easy to port them over. You'll need to decide how to handle duplicative class features like Extra Attack and Ability Score Improvements, but that shouldn't be hard.

To give you an example, a 5th level gestalt fighter//rogue would use d10s for hit dice, would gain hit points like a fighter, would have proficiency in all armor and shields, all simple and martial weapons, and Thieves' tools. They would have proficiency in Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, and Intelligence saving throws and would get proficiency in four skills from the lists available to both fighters and rogues (or six skills if you felt that was more appropriate).

For class features, they would have all of the features of a 5th level fighter and a 5th level rogue combined. That means Expertise, Action Surge, Sneak Attack, Extra Attack, Uncanny Dodge, Second Wind, etc.

[bid]

I know 36 is hardly ever used as it makes some pretty strong charas, but I almost feel it'll be necessary as they are a two man party against the entirety of DnD monster roster.
Rather than 36 point buy, give them an extra ASI at level 1 along with the feat. That way they can start with 18 somewhere.

Beyond that, even average characters can have fun if you craft your encounters well. For instance, have extra troop join in the middle of the fight instead of have them all at the start.

[DarknessEternal]

You shouldn't alter PC rules at all. You need to make encounters and challenges appropriate for 2 PCs.

[heavyfuel]

My suggestion is letting players use Gestalt characters. Basically, leveling up two classes at once and getting the benefit from both. A Fighter/Wizard gestal would have d10 HD, proficiency in Str, Con, Int, and Wis saves, and in all weapons and armor, on top of gaining all the class features from both Fighter and Wizard.

This rule was a variant rule back in 3.5, and it works really well for small parties.

There's still the issue of the action economy, but it's not nearly as big a problem when you have a crapton of resources.


You shouldn't alter PC rules at all. You need to make encounters and challenges appropriate for 2 PCs.

Or do this.

[KorvinStarmast]

You shouldn't alter PC rules at all. You need to make encounters and challenges appropriate for 2 PCs. If that's what the OP wanted to do, they'd not have started this thread, I suspect. :smallwink:

[DarknessEternal]

If that's what the OP wanted to do, they'd not have started this thread, I suspect. :smallwink:

Some people think ice skating up hill is a good idea. It's up to use to remind then it isn't.

[da newt]

I like this recommendation:

-Give each character two turns each round (roll initiative twice, use both). This method can really make the characters feel like superheroes. The players are less likely to balk at this one, but it's still best to run the idea past them before implementing it.

And I'll add one more - give each of them a pet/companion like the Tasha's Ranger Beast Companion, but give it it's own turn. It's not a PC or a sidekick, but it will help add some HP, action economy, etc

But really - the 'right' answer depends a bunch on the experience and desires of your 2 players. Ask them.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you have Tasha's, let each of them build one PC and one sidekick. A half-elf noble prodigy spellcaster sidekick can learn healing word and/or cure wounds, plenty of control and buff spells, and spam EB otherwise. A boggle expert with expertise on athletics and a mason jar lid ring to always have dimensional rift available can make a significant contribution both in and out of combat, even if it doesn't deal damage. A flying sword or wolf or worg or skulk or jackalwere (don't allow a jackalwere) warrior is basically like having a champion fighter in the party.