Vegetarianism

[Arcwell]

My new girlfriend is a pretty big Vegetarian and she doesn't really mind my eating meat so long as I don't eat to much when I'm around her (meaning no sloppy Beef Sandwichs etc etc).
I've always considered Vegetarianism an option as I often find myself questioning myself when the argument is brought up and I also enjoy eating fruit and vegtables anyway. However I worry that if I tried becoming a Veggie that my metabolism would kick me in the ass and I'd end up becoming fatigued, losing a dangerous ammount of weight (I'm already unusually skinny) etc etc.
So whats the opinion on the matter?
Also any links/advice on vegetarian diets would be appreciated.

(First post by the way, hello everyone!)

[Ossian]

Welcome to the playground then! Not a nutritionist or a vegetarian myself. Best thing you can do, is go directly to an hospital's nutritionist/dietologist. They have a degree in medicine and will know better than any internet website or wise friend advice. Especially if you are a bit underweight, shifting to veg. has to be thought through very carefully. Get some blood samples analyzed, get your metabolism checked (hormones, chemical interactions, lack of enzymes that help the intake of this or that protein) and make sure that, if you get a green light from the Doc., you do it gradually, monitoring your condition (without overstressing yourself, mind you) for the first times, and see how it goes (and if you LIKE it, psic. is important too). There are many "degrees" of vegetarianism, and some of them include dairy products (butter, cheese, milk) and eggs. So, make sure the doctor gives you the most appropriate one. Age is also a factor. If you're too young (like, in your teens) it's probably too early (but then again, ask the doctor and get your blood tests).

As a feedback, I do have friends of all sorts of weight categories who are vegetarians (one is a massive Karate sensei, and another is a slim and short girl that does not do sports at all) and they are healthy just like me.

Cheers

Ossian

[Riffington]

I'm an MD and a vegetarian, so I thought I'd weigh in.

The big thing is how much stuff you're really giving up. If you become vegan (no animal products at all), it's a big move and you need to design your diet carefully. But if you still eat cheese/milk, then you don't really need to worry about it because you can get all the vitamins you need without supplements.

Basically: just make sure you eat a variety of foods. Beans, different grains, fruits and vegetables - not just twinkies. You don't have to eat a big variety of foods at each meal, just over the course of the week. If your diet has variety, you won't miss anything your body needs. (Except B12, if you are vegan).

[Wraith]

Though I'm pretty sure that this isn't quite what you intended by "vegetarian advice and diets", Arcwell, it is something of a habit of mine to post this link as a Devil's Advocate when regarding the subject:

Lloydian Opinions: Why Vegetarians Should Be Force-Fed Lard (http://www.lloydianaspects.co.uk/opinion/veggie.html)

Forgive the title - I didn't write it, and the person who did doesn't share my subtleties with the written word :smallwink:

I mean no offence by posting it, and I'm very sure that your lady-friend is not so extreme as to require such arguments, however in the past I have encountered several militant vegetarians that required 'educating' and this site is a good way to start.

P.S: Hello! :smallsmile:

[Riffington]

The article is amusing, but mostly incorrect.
It brings up a major good point: if you go vegetarian, you have to be careful to avoid losing your sense of humor. If you find yourself yelling at meat eaters, or unable to take a joke, go to McDonalds immediately.

However: if you eat a variety of foods, vegetarianism is healthier than meat eating. It is healthy even for babies, as long as you give them milk.

[Ceska]

I'm ovo-lacto vegetarian and I certainly don't weigh any less than I would with eating meat. I simply do weigh as much as I feel healthy and good with. Still, if you are concerned I would suggest you do what Ossian proposed. Or do like me and simply cut down on the amount of meat you eat gradually until a point where you don't eat any. Nowadays I simply don't like the taste of meat, I even had some problems with eating mushrooms last time because they tasted a bit like this. I also don't like the consistency of meat, it feels bad to me.


Lloydian Opinions: Why Vegetarians Should Be Force-Fed Lard (http://www.lloydianaspects.co.uk/opinion/veggie.html)
There's quite weak arguments on some parts. Especially the whole argument towards people just not liking the taste of meat. Right, we're simply all the same and have to have the same tastes and habits. :smallsigh: Great argument.

[phoenixineohp]

Hello!

Like the MD said, it's important to consider what you will be removing from your diet. There is a veggie daily food guide, just like the regular food guide, listing suggest servings and categories. It seems that the 3 things people have the hardest time getting are protein, iron and B12. It's important to get regular blood work to keep an eye on those last two and know how to maximize your intake. From my experience if you enjoy the taste of meat will probably end up eating it again at some point. So be realistic about what to take out and how you will feel about that. If you remove all meat from your diet and you end up wanting to eat it again, slowly reintroduce it in small amounts. You body will need to adjust to having to digest it again. If you do go veggie, another thing to think about is how strict you are going to be. Things like soup bases, meat sauce and gelatin are important to consider. Or you can get as strict as watching what grill things are cooked on and what knives are used to cut things. Once you think you know what you are aiming for, book a consultation with your doctor, a nutritionist or dietitian. They can go over everything with you and make sure you will be happy and healthy.

It was eight or nine years ago that I went veggie and I'm so happy I did. I never liked the taste of meat and am thrilled not to have to eat it anymore. Going to restaurants is a little harder and I do miss the big holiday dinner turkeys with my family, but my plate is still full and I'm healthier now than I was before. Please keep us updated on what you decide to do. :smallsmile:

[Capoeira]

I was raised in a mostly vegetarian household, and my mother, sister, and 75% of women in my life so far have been vegetarians at some point...

...but I have always eaten meat. I like the primal feeling of biting into another animals flesh... though I do make a point to thank them for the sacrafice as well.

I dont really consider it bad, healthy carnivorism on a moral level, since I know that one day I, too, will be eaten and digested. However there are some arguements that I find hard to condtradict:

1. Inhumane practices. You have seen the perdue chicken ´factory´footage I hope? If not, its something everyone who eats meat in america should be aware of BEFORE making that decision.

2. Sustainability. It simple takes alot more land to grow meat than equivolent amounts of rice or wheat, and so sustainable amounts of meat ingestion should be considered. Meat at every meal is not required, healthy, or possible for everyone with current population levels... which *would* golden rule it out.


I honestly think that people incapable (due to squeemishness or inability) of personally catching and killing an animal shouldnt be eating it, as a natural control. Unfortunatly, these are unnatural times...

And to second the doctor, b12 supplements are recommended really for anyone who doesnt eat enough beef and broccoli, including many omnivores too americanized to eat vegetables that they cant fry...
(Its okay for me to say, I´m from Ohio... peeps deep-fry snickers bars here)



welcome to the forums!!!

[Vondre]

I dont really consider it bad, healthy carnivorism on a moral level, since I know that one day I, too, will be eaten and digested.

...Wait, what? :smalleek:

Back on topic...

My brother and his longtime girlfriend are both vegetarian (they might have an exception for fish; I know a lot of people that do.) On a personal level, I've considered at least leaning towards a more vegetarian diet - not for any moral or social means, but simply because I think that it's healthier. Whenever I have the choice between meat and no meat, I'm trying to take the second option more often.

[Trog]

Immediately made me think of this (http://www.weebls-stuff.com/wab/hams/)

[Tempest Fennac]

I've heard a lot of different things rearding whether vegetarianism is healthy (eg: Brian Molko (from a band called Placebo) and an author/animal behaviouralist named Temple Grandin both tried it before apparently becoming ill over it, while other people are completely healthy with pure vegan diets), so I assume that different people have different nutritional needs.

[Riffington]

I've heard a lot of different things rearding whether vegetarianism is healthy (eg: Brian Molko (from a band called Placebo) and an author/animal behaviouralist named Temple Grandin both tried it before apparently becoming ill over it, while other people are completely healthy with pure vegan diets), so I assume that different people have different nutritional needs.

There are no promises. For the vast majority of Americans, vegetarianism would improve their overall health. But for all I know, you personally might die in a car crash on your way to the Farmer's Market.

As to the people who think they have more/less energy on a vegetarian diet: well, do what works for you. But it's mostly psychological.

[BlackStaticWolf]

My professional medical advice as a both fake and incompetent internet doctor is to counteract her vegetarianism by becoming a cannibal. This way you'll balance her refusal to participate in the consumption of tastey meat creatures by consuming more valuable tastey meat creatures.

Also, it's a proven scientific fact that if you eat someone's heart, you'll gain their courage. Professor Farnsworth agrees.

Furthermore, soylent green is both delicious AND nutritious.

[bluewind95]

I don't like meat very much, honestly. I don't dislike it either, but it's not something I'm too fond of. (Well, that's livestock meat. Fish is a very different matter.)

However, I figure that if my species evolved with canine teeth, I might as well make use of them. They're there for a reason. Last time I checked, humans are omnivorous. Which means we can (and probably should, to keep to the specifics for which we evolved) eat both meat and vegetables.

There are ways to get pretty much the same nutrients with a meat-only diet and a vegetables-only diet. But since it actually takes conscious choice and planning and maybe even vitamin supplements, I'm not sure it's exactly healthy on its own.

But hey, to each their own. If people want to stop eating something, if they're willing to take the necessary steps so that it won't affect them... hey, humans have a free will and can choose as they wish.

[Jokes]

I'm going to respond to this as a non-vegetarian while trying to keep my own beliefs out of it, as I tend to be too political...

I don't have a problem with vegetarians, but coming from a cattle farming background, it is a bit of a kick in the nuts. I at least know the importance of a varied diet though. There is one person I know who only eats two things, meat and potatoes. She is the most unhealthy person I know, yet she refuses to eat anything else. She'll die younger than any vegetarian I know.


However there are some arguements that I find hard to condtradict:

Allow me to contradict them then :P


1. Inhumane practices. You have seen the perdue chicken ´factory´footage I hope? If not, its something everyone who eats meat in america should be aware of BEFORE making that decision.

I study Agriculture at university and one of the courses was Meat and Livestock Production (compulsory) so I think I've seen similar footage of an Australian processing facility. I agree it is pretty disturbing, chickens (and probably pigs too) are probably the worst off domestic animals. Though I could also point out the many animals that are needlessly killed during harvest of wheat. I've driven a harvester once, for just a couple of hours, and you wouldn't believe the number of rabbits, pheasants and other animals that end up in tiny little pieces.

If people think farming is cruel, consider computers for a minute. Many of the materials used to make computers, such as arsenic, cobalt, gold etc, are mined in Africa by people who are practically slaves and thousands die each year from contact with deadly heavy metals and malnutrition. Every cell phone you buy costs people their lives.

Which is the biggest guilt trip, killing an animal for food, or killing people for something you don't need?


2. Sustainability. It simple takes alot more land to grow meat than equivolent amounts of rice or wheat, and so sustainable amounts of meat ingestion should be considered. Meat at every meal is not required, healthy, or possible for everyone with current population levels... which *would* golden rule it out.

Did you know that before about 1985 (i forget the exact year), you wouldn't be able to find the word "sustainability" in dictionary? Just a little fun fact. In Australia, the clearing of land for broadacre cropping has been directly linked with a rise in salinity (the native deep rooted perennials kept the water table low, after they were cleared, the underground water rose to the surface, bringing dissolved salts. The water evaporates off and the soil becomes saline) and soil acidity (a complex one to describe, but basically involves nitrogen fertilisers) making more and more land less suitable for anything. There are also many areas that just aren't suitable for cropping. Much of inland Australia is too dry and nutrient deficient to grow crops and this is where a lot of our cattle come from.I doubt you have the same problems in the US, though.

I agree that meat doesn't have to be every meal. I doubt I could go more than a week without it though, 'meat and three veg' has been so ingrained into me. Though, a diet that requires supplements and doctor visits isn't what nature intended.

Much of a plant is indigestable. You don't eat straw do you? Ruminants are the perfect food conversion tool. They make indigestible into digestible. A perfect system would be to limit the amount of grain fed to animals and only feed straw while keeping them on standing stubble between crop rotations. I personally don't eat a lot of pork, because I know exactly what goes into their feed. Pigs aren't ruminants like sheep or cattle, so require a higher quality of feed, including meat and fishmeal, tallow, a heap of amino acids and a whole heap of grain. A year ago I could probably give you the whole recipe for a male weaner mix.

There you go, my AU$0.02 (which are now almost US$0.02)

EDIT: Wow, that was longer than I expected...

@Trog, that was hilarious

[Riffington]

There are ways to get pretty much the same nutrients with a meat-only diet and a vegetables-only diet. But since it actually takes conscious choice and planning and maybe even vitamin supplements, I'm not sure it's exactly healthy on its own.


This is the fundamental bad assumption that most of us have: that vegetarians are the ones who need conscious choice and planning. Everyone does. Without such planning, meat-eaters get too many calories, too much fat, too much cholesterol, too much iron, etc... and they die of heart attacks at a significantly higher rate.

Obviously, it's possible for omnivores to have a healthy diet. They just need to make sure to eat lean cuts of meat, eat meat only in moderation, watch their overall iron intake or donate blood, etc. Really, we all need to plan our diets properly, especially those who eat meat.

[Vuzzmop]

I'm a vegetarian. You know, not hardcore or anything, I eat meat. But only because I like the taste, so , morally, I'm there. :smalltongue:

I know a few vegetarians, and all of them eat stupidly. My advice is to think very carefully about what your body needs to have meat replaced by, so you don't go anaemic through lack of juicy, delicious, gravy soaked...:smallsmile:

[averagejoe]

I am a tremendo-meatatarian... but I still eat fruits and vegetables sometimes. (http://www.qwantz.com/archive/000704.html)

I have no problem with vegetarianism per se, but my sister's a vegetarian, so I pretty much have to make fun of all you vegetarians out there. :smalltongue:

[TRM]

Just to chip in a little bit:
Please do not fall into the trap of thinking that you can only eat a varied diet by being a vegetarian.:smallannoyed: That is not true. Meat is nutrient rich and very healthy.

The way I see it, the problem isn't meat but the way we get alot of meat (factory farms) and the quantitiy of meat that is consumed. Eating anything in excess is unhealthy (if you eat 200 twinkies/day and never exercise you can still be a vegetarian, but you'll also be obese and unhealthy).

(Edited for clarity)

[Illiterate Scribe]

I'm vegetarian, and I just like quorn and other stuff like TVP on the grounds that it's homogeneous - there's no strange, unidentifiable bits (like in some meat), and it can't go quite as bad as meat.

[pondshadow]

I'm a vegetarian and in my opinion there is no problem with diet as long as you eat beans,kale,and tvp. I have vitamins too but that's not something you strictly need. Also, at least eat organic meat if you don't want to give it up. It tastes much better and it's better than McDonalds.

[skywalker]

My new girlfriend is a pretty big Vegetarian and she doesn't really mind my eating meat so long as I don't eat to much when I'm around her (meaning no sloppy Beef Sandwichs etc etc).
I've always considered Vegetarianism an option as I often find myself questioning myself when the argument is brought up and I also enjoy eating fruit and vegtables anyway. However I worry that if I tried becoming a Veggie that my metabolism would kick me in the ass and I'd end up becoming fatigued, losing a dangerous ammount of weight (I'm already unusually skinny) etc etc.
So whats the opinion on the matter?
Also any links/advice on vegetarian diets would be appreciated.

(First post by the way, hello everyone!)

My opinion and advice is: Don't. Since you're already dangerously skinny, you don't want to take away your main source of protein that way, and while it is true that you can get protein from other sources, it's not exactly the same. You were born as a meat-eating creature. You should probably eat meat.

I'm not attacking vegetarians, hell, I've dated one for over a year. But the idea that it's healthier for a person to not eat meat is false, and if that's your primary reason for not eating meat(and you don't have some specific condition) then you need to re-examine your thoughts on the matter. If you eat right, an omnivore will be healthier than a vegetarian. It's just how you evolved.

Those people who say man is the greatest predator to ever live are very much correct.

[Altair_the_Vexed]

I've been veggie most of my life (36 years and counting), and I'm no healthier or less healthier for it. I find it does make me more conscious of my food, and that's not a bad thing. I put more effort into getting variety than I might otherwise. That's me, though. Your mileage may vary.

The most important thing in anyone's diet is to make sure you're getting enough but not too much of all the essential food groups and all the necessary vitamins. Eating meat isn't a bad thing in itself (all moral issues aside), but eating meat to excess is unhealthy. It's also unhealthy to eat only chips, fried eggs and cheese - and that's a vegetarian diet.

The way to ensure you're not going to get down and miserable (that works for me) is to watch your protein intake (beans and nuts are good without having to go for fake meat products like soya mince), and add marmite / vegemite / whatever-your-local-yeast-extract-spread-equivalent-is into your diet (if you don't like it on toast, use it to make stock for a stew, you'll hardly know it's in there).

If you do turn veggie, get ready to love cheese like you never did before!
And if you don't turn veggie, please be nice about your meat! Battery farming isn't very nice, and growth hormones injected into cattle get into your system and don't help you live naturally. Remember that free-range organic meat is a good alternative to many of the moral arguments, and you'll be supporting small businesses by buying it.

[Closet_Skeleton]

I am a tremendo-meatatarian... but I still eat fruits and vegetables sometimes. (http://www.qwantz.com/archive/000704.html)

But... A T-Rex is a carnavore... he doesn't give a s*** about scurvy...

Wait...


I agree it is pretty disturbing, chickens (and probably pigs too) are probably the worst off domestic animals. Though I could also point out the many animals that are needlessly killed during harvest of wheat. I've driven a harvester once, for just a couple of hours, and you wouldn't believe the number of rabbits, pheasants and other animals that end up in tiny little pieces.

Yeah, I just can't be bothered trying that hard not to step on something's toes. I slaughter tiny insects on mass just by breathing. I'd die if I let pathogenic microbes get their way.

My opinion was always that if you can be so easily swayed by someone showing you a disturbing picture of an abatoire, you don't deserve to make the choice of being a vegetarian or not. That's me being a cold unfeeling bastard though.

[Mordan]

Okay, I'm going to avoid all the political stuff, since it's against the rules here, and also going to avoid all those wonderful moral debates. Both sides in those debates are right and both sides are wrong, as Obi Wan said, it's all a matter of perspective.

To say that a vegetarian is healthier then an omnivore is just plain rediculous. The human anatomy is designed the way it is for a reason. We are meant to eat both meat and vegetables (using this term broadly for the "non-meat" group). That's why everyone is suggesting bloodwork and having your diet examined before doing anything. None of us know your medical background, and even if armed with that knowledge can't know what your bloodwork or anything else will come back as.

The biggest thing with all of this is balance. Meat is not inherently bad. And vegetables are not inherently good. Unfortunately food does not always fall in to a proper alignment scheme. Generally, it's the quality and quantity of what you eat that counts. If you attempted to eat parts of wheat plant, it would cause significant damage to your insides. If you eat certain parts of a cow, it will do the same. Some foods react quicker, others take more time. The key is to finding a balance in your diet, regardless of your reasons for being/not being a vegetarian (and the rest of us are not carnivores, we are omnivores, since we aren't forsaking vegetables).

I'd be interested in knowing why your girlfriend is a vegetarian before giving any kind of advice. But ultimately, it's up to you and her to sit down and discuss why she is and why she wants you to be. If he sole argument is "it's healthier" then there is an inherent flaw to her logic. McDonalds may not be healthy, but as pointed out before, neither are Twinkies. Just remember, that the world's record for eating the most boiled eggs in 2 minutes was set by a vegetarian, who immediately had a stroke upon finishing.

[Capoeira]

political debates are illegal here? I didnt know that, but I like it.

One of my favorite offensive sayings is that: ´Arguing on the internet is like competing in the special olympics; even is you win youre still retarded´

Yes, I know thats a hugely offensive line to anyone with sensitivity to the disabled, but oh well it gets the point across.

Besides, all of the sustainability, morality, and production issues have been argued better by now in other places, with more time to research the issues than I usually get.

And yea, Im glad people are mentioning the fact that everyone needs to think more about what they eat, not just... shall we say exceptions? I like that one.

[CrazedGoblin]

one of my friends is a veggie, hes perfectly healthy, nothing wrong with vegetarianism in my eyes :smallsmile:

[dehro]

one of my sisters is a veggy, one of my brothers is very limited in what he likes/eats (variety-wise).
they both are very healthy.
she has a bit more problems when she goes out in a restaurant (living in Italy, where cooking is a serious activity and not "chuck something in the microwave")..but that's about it.
In Italy (and I presume elswhere as well) every couple of weeks a new diet or research on food is mentioned in the news, mostly coming from the States...one time it says that a glass of wine every meal is good for the heart, the next it says that wine contains alcohol and thus is always bad news, whatever the quantity.. then it rambles on the nutrients of chocolate...it just keeps going and if you was to follow all new "developments and discoveries" you'd keep changing your diet every 3 days.
As for myself, I tend to be a meat eater and do not like several raw vegetables (salad?..no thanks)
I try to compensate with those vegetables I do like and eat quite some fruit.
I feel moderately happy with my health condition, considering that lately I haven't had time or chance for regular phisical activity. I'm very far away from the typical "fat american" as we europeans tend to consider them (I must say I've seen quite a few who fit this description)... I do not eat regularly junkfood and go to mcdonald only when I really feel like it, which does not happen very often.
all in all, I'm not very careful or accurate in my diet, but I guess I could fare worse.
you want to go veggie?,... go for it in a sensible and rational way..and if you feel any different or think it's causing you trouble, you can always go back to eat meat or see a doctor about it.

[Riffington]

That's why everyone is suggesting bloodwork and having your diet examined before doing anything.

Including before eating any cheeseburgers :smallbiggrin:

[Eldpollard]

I just went straight from eating quite a lot of meat to eating none at all over night. I can say that for me it hasn't had any detrimental effect at all.

[thubby]

PROTEIN, one of the most difficult things to get on a veggie diet is a proper amount of protein, you can get it from beans, other than that, best of luck to you.
personaly, though, i like meat.

[Vespe Ratavo]

I've been a veggie all my life, and I'm fairly healthy. Admittedly, I'm a tad overweight and not in the greatest physical condition, but that's more due to junk food than a lack of meat. My advice? If you go veggie, look into tofu meat substitutes. They're available in just about any kind of flavor, and they've got protein.

[FdL]

That linked article gives some good counter arguments, really.

In all, to the OP, I don't think you should change your eating habits to those of your girlfriend. I see no point really, apart for being easier to make and share food together. My ex girlfriend was a vegetarian, well, she ate chicken and fish too, but I never stopped eating (red) meat around her.

My take? People do not eat well in general. I think further restricting the type of food you can eat can make this worse.

[Riffington]

FdL: are there any of those counterarguments that you actually think are correct?? I'll grant funny - but correct?


People in the US do not eat well in the sense that we eat too much. In particular, we eat too much fat, protein, calories, cholesterol, and iron. Restriction (by eliminating meat or by eating meat only in moderation) is much needed.

[Sir_Norbert]

All the counterarguments on the page take the specific form "If X is your reason for being a vegetarian, it is not a good reason". I think many of the arguments are correct, but that only means that I think many reasons often given for being vegetarian are not good ones.

[Wolfer]

I eat animal muscle. I like eating animal muscle. I have nothing against people who refuse to eat animal muscle, although I confess I don't see why not. I'm skinny. Very skinny.

[dehro]

All the counterarguments on the page take the specific form "If X is your reason for being a vegetarian, it is not a good reason". I think many of the arguments are correct, but that only means that I think many reasons often given for being vegetarian are not good ones.

nah..most of his proto-economical reasoning makes no sense from a commercial point of view, and some are just plain silly. if you go to his homepage and read the titles of his other posts, you realise the man's an idiot, even more so because he thinks of himself as a maitre à penser..

[Albub]

I got a good laugh, but mostly only because the first few vegetarians I met were the preachy, holier than thou types that thought they were saving the world by boycotting meat and that anyone who didn't was foolish, or evil. This, naturally, caused a strong dislike for vegetarians for me because I was young and impressionable, and thought that was how all vegetarians acted. Clearly, you don't, but I still enjoy someone making fun of/shooting down vegetarian ideals. Not that I have a problem with vegetarians anymore. I guess its similar to finding horribly offensive racist jokes absolutely hilarious, even though you aren't a racist at all. It must be weird not eating meat though... It's so good. I actually eat an almost vegetable free diet to be honest. I prefer my food shot to death and then cooked thoroughly before I eat it.

[landadmiral]

First, Trog - Loved the video clip

Second, lately I've had unpleasant encounters with vegetarians. I shop at Braum's - a local dairy for milk, cheese, meat and they also serve ice cream and function as a burger joint. anyways, i'm checking out the bacon to see what has the most meat and least fat on the bacon and the cashier says what are you doing? "i'm finding the best bacon with the most meat on it, you don't know how to check? i'll show you." just as i began to explain, she butts in and says with a holier than thou tone "i wouldn't know, i'm a vegetarian, and don't care". of course i go on the offensive because i don't put up with that nonsense. while explaining the human biology of omnivore teeth, stomachs, and digestion and why we should eat both meats and vegetables, she quickly backs down and says "i just don't push my beliefs on others" yeah right.

that was my most recent encounter - several have been similar. maybe the unpleasantness comes from a lack of vitamins in a meat free diet.

Last,

1. Inhumane practices. You have seen the perdue chicken ´factory´footage I hope? If not, its something everyone who eats meat in america should be aware of BEFORE making that decision.

You do realize that you said the word "Inhumane"? Meaning - not human. So...
...we are treating animals not like humans...
...and what is wrong with that??
And when you explain it to me, remember, these animals are not humans.

[thubby]

You do realize that you said the word "Inhumane"? Meaning - not human. So...
...we are treating animals not like humans...
...and what is wrong with that??
And when you explain it to me, remember, these animals are not humans.

"inhumane" despite its roots, now has a definition of "lacking compassion or pity". i agree with your point, but the definition thing doesn't work.:smallwink:
though i do think food animals deserve better than they get now :smallfrown:

[Syka]

I have nothing against vegetarians and vegans and such. So, if you suffer no ills effects, go for it. But as with any major diet shift, watch for any negative effects.

As for if we must eat meat, eating free range organic meat...It's just not feasible for everyone. I loved my on-campus dining hall because they use all organic ingrediants, and it was the first time I found out I actually liked carrots (organic carrots taste sweet, as opposed to traditionally farmed carrots which taste like nothing to me). If I could, I would eat organic.

But I can't. I don't have the money. I have to watch what I buy. My family only gets certain cuts of meat, etc. Carrots are the only thing I demand be organic because I can't stand the taste of normal carrots.

Before going holier-than-thou about eating free-range and all, just remember- not all of us can afford it.

And I know what you mean about the bacon! It's nigh impossible to find packages of bacon with more meat than fat these days. We always strip the fat off the bacon before cooking it, and we only get these dinky little pieces left to cook. :(

Cheers,
Syka

[Albub]

Being 15, and believing firmly that I am utterly invincible, I make sure my bacon has the most possible fat. Then butter and salt it. Ok, maybe no butter or salt, but I do love my meat fat... Anyone here ever had pork scruncheons? I don't know if that's how it's spelled, but it's like popcorn, only instead of corn you use little balls of pork fat. It's one of the most delicious things I've ever eaten.

[Vella_Malachite]

Personally, I don't have a problem with vegetarians. Two of my best friends are vegetarians. I have a friend who is incredibly opposed to vegetarianism, and that really annoys me. Honestly, she'll come out with stuff like "Vegetarians are idiots because humans were supposed to eat meat and they're just in denial."
:smallyuk:

Honestly, though, I love meat. Scared. (possibly local terminology: you hold the meat close enough to the flame to scare it and put it on a plate:smallwink:. Means very rare.) I think it depends on your reason for being vegetarian is what matters. Something like "I don't like meat" or "I'm morally opposed to eating meat" is fine; it's your choice. But anyone saying "I want to be a vegetarian because X is a vegetarian" may need to think a little about their decisions. No offense to anyone who is a vegetarian for that reason.

[Ichneumon]

I'm a vegetarian. It really changed my life (in a good way).

[Tempest Fennac]

I'd have to agree with Syka's comments about free-range meat (and I agree with Albub about the fat being the best part). I knwo what Dehro means about scientists changing their minds on stuff (I think the other week, they claimed that salt isn't bad for you and that coffee is good for you). This comic pretty much sums up the situation: http://www.newshounds.com/d/19980615.html . Also, regarding Closet_Skeleton's comment, carnivours in the wild get vitamins and minerals which aren't in meat from eating as much of their prey as possible, which is why the don't get scurvy.

[Dean Fellithor]

Meat: We were ment to eat it, seriously, without it we wouldn't be advanced as we are now.

[Setra]

If you want.. just try it.. if you crave meat.. then eat the meats.

I tried a vegetarian diet once, for about a month.. couldn't enjoy it..

If you do like it, then be one, simple as that.

I'll be over here with my meatloaf.

[Ceska]

of course i go on the offensive because i don't put up with that nonsense. while explaining the human biology of omnivore teeth, stomachs, and digestion and why we should eat both meats and vegetables, she quickly backs down and says "i just don't push my beliefs on others" yeah right.
While her action is unbearable for a cashier, your reaction isn't any better. We can digest meat, that doesn't mean we have to or are to.

We also can eat maggots. They even are great sources of protein. Still I don't see many do it.


that was my most recent encounter - several have been similar. maybe the unpleasantness comes from a lack of vitamins in a meat free diet.
Blech.:smallyuk:



You do realize that you said the word "Inhumane"? Meaning - not human. So...
...we are treating animals not like humans...
...and what is wrong with that??
And when you explain it to me, remember, these animals are not humans.
As it was said, it is meant as lacking compassion or pity, which is a bit strange anyway. I simply prefer to treat those who give their life, or their children, for me with at least the respect to give them a fair life as long as it goes.


I loved my on-campus dining hall because they use all organic ingredients, and it was the first time I found out I actually liked carrots (organic carrots taste sweet, as opposed to traditionally farmed carrots which taste like nothing to me). If I could, I would eat organic.
To be fair, organic vegetables are still cheaper than most meat in Europe. That means, if you cut down on meat the price of your meal will be lower even if the rest will be more expensive.


Meat: We were ment to eat it, seriously, without it we wouldn't be advanced as we are now.
Care to elaborate on what you base this observation?

[Quincunx]

Dean Fellithor's stepped out for the night, so I'll handle that one in brief: the meat-eating branches of the early human family tree had larger brains than we'd expected of early humans, because their high-calorie meat diet could sustain a larger brain. Will edit with supporting evidence.

[EDIT:

Varied Diet vs. Herbivores (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/prehistoric_life/human/human_evolution/food_for_thought1.shtml)

Varied Diet vs. Carnivores (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/1342392.stm)

Statistics of Neanderthals (including larger brain size than modern humans) (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/prehistoric_life/human/human_evolution/ice_people1.shtml)

The article which I cannot find referenced the last link. Specifically, the meat-rich diet of Neanderthals was the reason for their quickened maturity, which led to higher population growth and quicker spread of beneficial genes.]

[EDIT EDIT: If we're wasting energy on computers, then no, the efficiency of our caloric intake doesn't matter--but it did once to us, and to several species like us.]

[Riffington]

Evolutionary arguments aren't really good at describing what is healthy today.

It was once important to clot really well, because you got limbs torn off. Today, it is much more likely that you will die from a clot than from bleeding to death. So what was once evolutionarily a good idea (eat everything you can, you might starve later) is no longer applicable, now that we have restaurants and supermarkets.

As to intelligence: vegetarians are smarter than nonvegetarians (though the cause/effect probably goes the other direction... intelligence ->higher education->vegetarianism)

[Tempest Fennac]

Is there actually a correlation between brain size and intelligence? The average human apparently only uses 10% of our brains, suggesting that either the remaining 90% does stuff that most humans don't care/know about, or it's just wasting energy due to existing needlessly.

[ray53208]

im no vegetarian. ive tried dating vegetarians though, and ive worked with them. on the worst end of the spectrum are the snooty activists that get in your face. although mostly its passive-aggressive judgement from supposed moral superiority. at the best end are people who do it because they want to and it has nothing to do with anyone else. the are courteous and accepting of others choices. they can even joke about it.

dont do this for a girl. changing your life because of an external pressure from a relationship usually ends up badly. BUT if you really want to, do it for yourself.

my two cents though: we evolved as omnivores. its all about adaptability and survival. if it came down to it id eat whatever i had to to survive. the meat our ancient homonid ancestors ate allowed for our brains to develop. i can even accept that the living things i eat might even have souls, so, in turn, i must accept the sacrifice of these animals to my own existence and be thankful. i dont think a bear puts that much thought into eating a fish, or a lion into devouring a zebra. eating meat is part of who i am. i can not and will not change.

but if its not your bag, so be it. my vegetarian friends should expect some good natured ribbing. pun intended.


Is there actually a correlation between brain size and intelligence? The average human apparently only uses 10% of our brains, suggesting that either the remaining 90% does stuff that most humans don't care/know about, or it's just wasting energy due to existing needlessly.

the whole ten percent thing is a myth. we use our whole brains. the senses, emotions, memories, movement, body functions, and decision making are part and parcel to the whole shebang.

[Quincunx]

Tempest Fennac: That 10% is less of a figure than an aphorism. What does count are the sizes and activity within particular regions of the brain. We can't go back and measure activity within the brains of the deceased though: size is our only criterion. Those australopithecus skulls literally have no room for higher cognitive functions.

[Riffington]

dont do this for a girl. changing your life because of an external pressure from a relationship usually ends up badly. BUT if you really want to, do it for yourself.
...

the whole ten percent thing is a myth. we use our whole brains. the senses, emotions, memories, movement, body functions, and decision making are part and parcel to the whole shebang.

These are two points which are very true and require emphasis.
Or, to extend a forbidden parlance, "these".

[Arcwell]

Wow thanks guys, I honestly did not expect this much of a response.
I've always held some pretty solid moral obligations to eating meat(making me somewhat of a hypocrite) and I've been more recently made to take it more and more into consideration. My girlfriend has pretty much always been a vegetarian since she was old enough to object to eating meat, unlike a few of the people I know she respects the fact that at the end of the day its up to the individual to choose what they do with their lives. While we obviously have brought up the subject I haven't yet mentioned the fact that I'm thinking of becoming vegetarian yet until I've made certain that I could actually make the choice and the commitment under my own steam.
My "argument" for wanting to become a Veggie is that while I do agree that Humanity as a species is naturally omnivourous and that we are top of the foodchain I find the whole cultivation of animals for food and selective breeding personally disturbing and somewhat unnatural and although I am aware that we do live in strange times I'd rather not have to eat that kind of thing.
I'm going to book an appointment with my Doctor to discuss my options and I'll probably go for cutting out the meat in my diet gradually instead of going completely cold turkey.
Thanks all :smallsmile:

[topher]

As to intelligence: vegetarians are smarter than nonvegetarians (though the cause/effect probably goes the other direction... intelligence ->higher education->vegetarianism)

Stop everything!!!….you can’t just make a statement like that and then not support it.(actually you can, but I'd prefer proof)
What is this based on? Please provide some sort of evidence.
(if u could use small words cause I meat eatin’ and probly not as smarty people as u):smallbiggrin:

[Ceska]

Dean Fellithor's stepped out for the night, so I'll handle that one in brief: the meat-eating branches of the early human family tree had larger brains than we'd expected of early humans, because their high-calorie meat diet could sustain a larger brain. Will edit with supporting evidence.
However, it doesn't really state why the early humans developed a bigger brain capacity. While spare energy is helpful, such things as social interaction, use of tools and generally adaption towards a new lifestyle, since humans did not have the abilities of other hunting animals they had to adapt to being mostly scavengers, should be noted more than just the eat.

There also is the fact that the sedentism of later times did create more energy in the same area while not creating a higher brain capacity but a higher population density.

While the argument still stays (and I will not fight it, since I do not think I nor the other side has enough evidence to lead to a satisfying conclusion, like it always seems to be in early history), I just want to say that we do not include very healthy and nutrient rich food into our diet, thus I see no reason why we should act differently on it than we do on any other.

Why exactly is it that we, as in inhabitants of the Western World, are disgusted of some things when we are not of others? Why do we think of the dead body of a cow as healthy food, while we think of most insects as disgusting, even when we know that our ancestors will probably have eaten it.


-------------------------

Okay, let me rephrase the first part a bit: Not the eating of meat, but having to fight for it with natural competitors, and having to use new tactics to get hold of this meat is what increased the size of the brain. While spare energy is indeed good for developing it, it is just a supportive parameter, the need for it is the thriving reason for higher capacity. The second the human become clear of natural rivals, the need for increased brain size was naught, thus the spare energy that later was created was used to increase population density instead of the abilities of the individual.

[Tempest Fennac]

The fact that certain races find certain foods to be revolting while others don't is probably down solely to social conditioning. I never knew that the "humans only use 10% of their brain" idea wasn't true. Do you have any information on why it's not true?

[Ceska]

Edited in a rephrasing.

True, but this social conditioning is in the end close to the reasons of vegetarians not eating meat, isn't it?

It's pretty simple, if we would not use our brain areas we would develop towards having only 10%, since everything else would be a waste of energy. Further the simple acts of walking in a slightly hilly area in a forest on no path whatsoever, you will have to process every sound, picture and feeling through your senses at the same time, which uses up more than just 10% of our brain. Now add conscious thought as well as the other sensory input.

[Riffington]

Stop everything!!!….you can’t just make a statement like that and then not support it.(actually you can, but I'd prefer proof)
What is this based on? Please provide some sort of evidence.
(if u could use small words cause I meat eatin’ and probly not as smarty people as u):smallbiggrin:

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/59220.php
The summary contains a mistake: Hitler was not a vegetarian (his doctor told him to, but he couldn't give up pork)
Also... just go look for vegetarians at Penn State, then go look for vegetarians at Yale.

[Riffington]

I never knew that the "humans only use 10% of their brain" idea wasn't true. Do you have any information on why it's not true?

Really, at the time that statistic came out, they only understood what 10% did. That doesn't mean the rest isn't necessary/useful. Just that they didn't understand the rest.

[Tempest Fennac]

Thanks for telling me, CSK and Riffington (that does make more sense). Could there be another reason why there are more vegetarians at Yale then in gaol, though? (Steriotypically, students are more likely to get involved with animal rights then criminals, so this could be the reason rather then there bing a link in regards to intelligence).

[Riffington]

Heh, Penn State is actually a school, not a euphemism for jail :)

Yes, smarter people go to fancier places of higher education, which are more apt to encourage vegetarianism. On average.

[Ceska]

I think that was the point Riffington was making. Groups with higher education have more of a personal opinion than other groups have, thus the number of vegetarians is higher. As I see it what he meant was that, no, it's not vegetarians that are smarter, but the average "smarter" population has a higher percentage of vegetarians thus making you think vegetarians were smarter than meat eaters in average (it's a classic cause and effect thing).

[B-Man]

I'm in a similar scenario as the OP, although it's a friend that I would like to be seeing. I do believe that she and her family are slowly trying to convert me into vegetarianism. Her step-father isn't a vegetarian and to are attempting to have her baby sister eat both veggie stuff and meat stuff. Whenever I'm over, they pretty much give me two dinners. One of them is vegetarian and the other one (which is considerably smaller) is non-veggie.


I have nothing against vegetarian meals, it's just I cannot stand the taste of fake meat. I like some tofu and a lot of the meals I've had at there place, but I don't think that I'd be able to survive for long on a diet/lifestyle like that.

[Tempest Fennac]

Thanks for clearing that up (sorry about getting confused about what Penn State refers to). CSK's idea is probably correct (I know from my Sociology A Level that determining that cause and effect can often be a problem: in the late 1800s, 1 researcher came to the conclusion that Catholic communities had lower suicide rates due to having more of a sense of belonging, when in fact these societies were less likely to class suicides as suicides then Protestant societies due to social stigma).

[BlackStaticWolf]

As to intelligence: vegetarians are smarter than nonvegetarians (though the cause/effect probably goes the other direction... intelligence ->higher education->vegetarianism)

Correlation is not causation. There is a positive correlation between higher intelligence and the choice to become a vegetarian. There is zero evidence of causation between higher intelligence and the decision to become a vegetarian.


http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/59220.php
The summary contains a mistake: Hitler was not a vegetarian (his doctor told him to, but he couldn't give up pork)
Also... just go look for vegetarians at Penn State, then go look for vegetarians at Yale.

That study (as reported in the article you cited) doesn't show what you seem to think it does. The study found that people who tested highly on an IQ test at age 10 were more likely to become vegetarians. It did NOT find that vegetarians are more intelligent than non-vegetarians.

Further, the article does not say whether the 366 vegetarians were a majority or a minority amongst those who had high IQ scores at age 10. That fact is extremely relevant.

[Closet_Skeleton]

As to intelligence: vegetarians are smarter than nonvegetarians (though the cause/effect probably goes the other direction... intelligence ->higher education->vegetarianism)

You're elitism disturbs me.


Is there actually a correlation between brain size and intelligence? The average human apparently only uses 10% of our brains, suggesting that either the remaining 90% does stuff that most humans don't care/know about, or it's just wasting energy due to existing needlessly.

You've already been scolded for this but I'm going to drive in the nale.

However you are right in questioning the correlation between brain size and intelligence. Women have universally smaller brains, and regardless of their other numerous faults, can be quite intelligent :smallwink:


http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/59220.php
The summary contains a mistake: Hitler was not a vegetarian (his doctor told him to, but he couldn't give up pork)
Also... just go look for vegetarians at Penn State, then go look for vegetarians at Yale.

Okay, they did some research. But IQ is contraversial enough in itself.

People do love talking about Hitler though...


I never knew that the "humans only use 10% of their brain" idea wasn't true. Do you have any information on why it's not true?

As requested:

http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/tenper.html

http://www.solitarytrees.net/cowen/misc/tenperct.htm

http://www.solitarytrees.net/cowen/misc/tenperct.htm

[Aereshaa_the_2nd]

Well, I have always amazed even myself by being healthy, tall, and pretty slim despite my diet. My diet is quite incredible. I eat no green vegetables. NONE. I eat chicken once every two days, and it's fatty oily portuguese BBQ chicken mostly. I only drink normal homogenized milk, I like lots of cream in my milkshakes, which I have often. However, for those without a supersonic metabolism, see a doctor.

[topher]

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/59220.php
The summary contains a mistake: Hitler was not a vegetarian (his doctor told him to, but he couldn't give up pork)
Also... just go look for vegetarians at Penn State, then go look for vegetarians at Yale.
:smallsigh: :smallyuk: :smallconfused:

What this article fails to include is what percent of those with high IQ’s are vegetarians. The only information I could find correlating IQ to vegetarianism was a bunch of forums discussing this same article. So, assuming this article is correct, I’ll make up some numbers. For example, let’s say there are, on average, 10% of people who are vegetarians and 30% of people with IQ’s over 120 who are vegetarians (both are probably overestimated). This means that as IQ increases the percentage of vegetarians in that IQ range increases, just as the article said. So why would the article fail to mention these numbers? Perhaps it’s because it fails to account for why 70% (probably more) of those with an IQ over 120 still find meat acceptable for eating.

It also doesn’t take into account what the reasons are for becoming a vegetarian. Health reasons…there are none directly related to vegetarianism, and anyone claiming this is misleading you. Popularity/Elitist reasons…this is likely for some and probably why Yale has a relatively high percent of vegetarians. Moral reasons…. this is also a likely candidate, and the only one that at least makes sense (though to say that those with high IQ’s are morally superior is as foolish as saying celebrities are), and even that argument has some holes.



Other well known vegetarians include Leonardo da Vinci, Plato, Pythagoras, Aristotle, Catherine Booth (founder of the Salvation Army), George Bernard Shaw, Albert Einstein and Adolf Hitler.

As you said, Adolf Hitler wasn’t a vegetarian. Leonardo, Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, and Einstein (I didn’t research the rest) were all vegetarians because they had a problem with animal cruelty. And this still fails to explain why so many other, high IQ people, are ok with meat consumption.

So far as I can tell this article fails to give enough information to make a convincing argument. Not that I’m saying it is wrong, just incomplete; and without any further data it fails to show that vegetarians are smarter (your original statement), instead of just more prone to fads/elitism.

[Riffington]

People may be reading a bit too much into the article. It's social science, and has lower standards of evidence than physics or chemistry. To clarify: I only presented the article as an example of how easy it is to find a quantitative difference between vegetarians and nonvegetarians. Whenever researchers look at life expectancies of vegetarians and omnivores, they find that vegetarians live longer... but usually only because the vegetarians are of higher socioeconomic status than the omnivores. Showing that vegetarians are smarter, richer, healthier than omnivores is easy. But we don't really know why. Maybe more educated people are more likely to become vegetarian. Maybe more intelligent people think more about things like eating, and thus realize to give up meat. Maybe smarter people are more likely to think stupid political thoughts and those lead to vegetarianism. Maybe stupid/poor people can't afford to be vegetarian. We don't know why. We do know that vegetarians are smarter, richer, and healthier than omnivores. On average.

[landadmiral]

While her action is unbearable for a cashier, your reaction isn't any better. We can digest meat, that doesn't mean we have to or are to.

We also can eat maggots. They even are great sources of protein. Still I don't see many do it.

Biologically, humans were made to eat meat. wouldn't that suggest the we are to eat meat to get all the basic nutrients we're supposed to have?
This analogy is just as applicable as your maggot analogy.
It's like saying humans were made with reproduction organs but doesn't mean we are supposed to reproduce.


Quote:
You do realize that you said the word "Inhumane"? Meaning - not human. So...
...we are treating animals not like humans...
...and what is wrong with that??
And when you explain it to me, remember, these animals are not humans.

As it was said, it is meant as lacking compassion or pity, which is a bit strange anyway. I simply prefer to treat those who give their life, or their children, for me with at least the respect to give them a fair life as long as it goes.

I still go back to what I said. Animals are not humans. Period. Why are we trying to treat them as such? Give them respect to a fair life as far as life goes? You do understand that wild chicken, pig, etc face higher mortality rates than domestic. That the loss of life has even less respect in the wild...and i seriously doubt that a wolf stops to reflect on the humanity err wolfanity of the dead chicken. These animals are having better lives in domestic farms regardless of the inevitable end of becoming food for humans. i would even argue that there is more honor and respect in that chicken's life than one in the wild.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Fellithor
Meat: We were ment to eat it, seriously, without it we wouldn't be advanced as we are now.

Care to elaborate on what you base this observation?

I'll elaborate.
People crave the foods with the nutrients that are needed for sustenance (that and sweets...different topic). My wife, while pregnant, eats some of the strangest foods at the strangest times. I asked the Ob/gyn why, and was told her body is craving the nutrients needed to support her condition. Civilization was built upon the strong backs of men creating them. Bridges, buildings, skyskrapers, stadiums, machinery, farming, boating, warfare (which is another topic), ranching, and simply hard labor ALL require human strength. The optimal nutritional source to create strength in humans is MEAT. And do you ever wonder why men crave meat? We need it to sustain muscle development. Developed muscles are needed to build civiliation. Thus civilation would not be this far had we been vegetarians. btw - protien shakes didn't exist 100 years ago.

The following is not based on -personal choice- of vegetarian vs omnivore, but does pertain to the argument.
Every pediatrition i've been to wants my children on a balanced diet that includes meat and whole milk. we don't want a another (http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/child_abuse.html) horror story (http://www.azcentral.com/community/scottsdale/articles/0512sr-neglect12Z8.html) of vegetarian parents denying the basic nutrition to children.

[Tempest Fennac]

Personally speaking, I think I'd sooner be a wild herbivour then a farm animal looking at what a lot of factory farms are like (I know that how nice they are vary a lot, but I would have thought that there would be a much higher chance of being killed if you lived on a farm). Also, I'd say that being wild would have more respect and honour due to survival of the fittest, which doesn't apply to farms as much (it's typically the animals who have the most meat on them who get to reproduce). I can see your point as far as nutritional cravings go, though.

[Ceska]

Biologically, humans were made to eat meat. wouldn't that suggest the we are to eat meat to get all the basic nutrients we're supposed to have?
This analogy is just as applicable as your maggot analogy.
It's like saying humans were made with reproduction organs but doesn't mean we are supposed to reproduce.
Biologically, humans were not made to eat anything. We evolved into a species that is able to digest meat, but doesn't have to, to survive. We also are a species that cannot exist completely herbivorous without having to compensate for a lack of vitamins. However, vegetarianism is not completely herbivorous, that would be veganism.


I still go back to what I said. Animals are not humans. Period. Why are we trying to treat them as such? Give them respect to a fair life as far as life goes?
We are not. We try to treat them as living beings that have emotions and feelings we can comprehend and see. We can see how a pig is in pain, we cannot do the same with a tree however.

You do understand that wild chicken, pig, etc face higher mortality rates than domestic.
Higher mortality rates? Every being dies some time. You mean shorter lifespan? Even that I doubt when you take infant mortality rate out of consideration.


That the loss of life has even less respect in the wild...and i seriously doubt that a wolf stops to reflect on the humanity err wolfanity of the dead chicken. These animals are having better lives in domestic farms regardless of the inevitable end of becoming food for humans. i would even argue that there is more honor and respect in that chicken's life than one in the wild.
A wolf does not use intensive farming but hunting as method of getting his nutrients.

More honourable? Only if you take intensive farming out of consideration. I see no honour in forcing chicken to live their whole life in a cage never even touching the ground.


The optimal nutritional source to create strength in humans is MEAT. And do you ever wonder why men crave meat? We need it to sustain muscle development. Developed muscles are needed to build civiliation. Thus civilation would not be this far had we been vegetarians. btw - protien shakes didn't exist 100 years ago.
Meat as a source of protein provides less per kg than beans and other legumes.


The following is not based on -personal choice- of vegetarian vs omnivore, but does pertain to the argument.
Every pediatrition i've been to wants my children on a balanced diet that includes meat and whole milk. we don't want a another (http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/child_abuse.html) horror story (http://www.azcentral.com/community/scottsdale/articles/0512sr-neglect12Z8.html) of vegetarian parents denying the basic nutrition to children.
Straw man? Both stories are about vegans, which I will never defend. I will not neglect my children the choice of eating meat or not if I will ever have any, but certainly not make it without their conscious decision "because it is good for them".

[Aereshaa_the_2nd]

Well, I have always amazed even myself by being healthy, tall, and pretty slim despite my diet. My diet is quite incredible. I eat no green vegetables. NONE. I eat chicken once every two days, and it's fatty oily portuguese BBQ chicken mostly. I only drink normal homogenized milk, I like lots of cream in my milkshakes, which I have often. However, for those without a supersonic metabolism, see a doctor.

[landadmiral]

Biologically, humans were not made to eat anything. We evolved into a species that is able to digest meat, but doesn't have to, to survive. We also are a species that cannot exist completely herbivorous without having to compensate for a lack of vitamins. However, vegetarianism is not completely herbivorous, that would be veganism.

That is based on the theory of evolution. till that argument is satisfied, i won't accept your claim because of a flawed premise.

[Aereshaa_the_2nd]

Well, I have always amazed even myself by being healthy, tall, and pretty slim despite my diet. My diet is quite incredible. I eat no green vegetables. NONE. I eat chicken once every two days, and it's fatty oily portuguese BBQ chicken mostly. I only drink normal homogenized milk, I like lots of cream in my milkshakes, which I have often. However, for those without a supersonic metabolism, see a doctor.

[Ceska]

Then this discussion is fruitless and we may very well agree to disagree from this point on. :smallamused:

Edit: That was meant as response to landadmiral's post.

Aereshaa, deja vu much? I think that's the third time you've posted it, I guess we get it by now.

[landadmiral]

csk - agreed, no need to go further

[PhoeKun]

I have something of a problem with vegetarianism. Not vegetarians, vegetarianism. Well... that's not really right, either. I recognize that people are perfectly capable of creating healthy diets for themselves that do not contain meat. I even recognize that a large number of Americans would be healthier than they are now on a vegetarian diet, if only because it would prevent them from constantly shoveling fat into their faces.

The problem I have is that, with one exception, every argument in favor of vegetarianism seems to carry with it an air of (often not intentional) superiority. "Vegetarian diets are healthier" pretty much flat-out states that I am eating unhealthily by comparison (never mind that I am; the problems of my diet are a matter of lack of intake). "I can't support a business that cruelly slaughters animals" (and you are a bad person for doing it). "Animals have feelings, and deserve better treatment than what they are given" (How cruel you are, to not see that!). And so on, and so forth, down the line until we reach "I don't like the taste of meat." That one just confuses me, but everyone's got different tastes, so... *shrug*

But anyway, there's a definite problem going on. I can't have a conversation with a vegetarian without feeling on some level that they're trying to convert me or somehow make me feel bad about my omnivorous habits. And about 7 times out of 10, I don't think they're trying to do anything of the sort, but that's how it seems to come out. And because of that, I find myself very biased against vegetarianism.

...I'm really not sure what this was supposed to add to the conversation, but I felt the need to say it anyway.

[Ceska]

Let me first say, Vegetarianism is an ideology. Ideologies all fail at some point in logical arguments. They appeal more to our emotional stance than to our logical.

"Vegetarian diets are healthier" pretty much flat-out states that I am eating unhealthily by comparison (never mind that I am; the problems of my diet are a matter of lack of intake).
They are not. They are not any less healthy though in most cases.


"I can't support a business that cruelly slaughters animals" (and you are a bad person for doing it).
Emotional arguments are no real arguments to use in a discussion.

"Animals have feelings, and deserve better treatment than what they are given" (How cruel you are, to not see that!).
Organic farming goes conform to the lines of eating meat, though, and those animals are not mistreated, while chickens sometime get mistreated and their eggs are eaten by many vegetarians. (As I said, I do eat eggs, but only those of my grandmother's chickens. They are in a free organic farming and I know how their lives is).


And so on, and so forth, down the line until we reach "I don't like the taste of meat." That one just confuses me, but everyone's got different tastes, so... *shrug*
*Confuses Phoe*

Fortunately we don't all have the same tastes, otherwise everyone would try to steal my Hokaido pumpkins!


But anyway, there's a definite problem going on. I can't have a conversation with a vegetarian without feeling on some level that they're trying to convert me or somehow make me feel bad about my omnivorous habits.
Strange, I get it the other way round to people trying to tell me vegetarianism is outright stupid and I'm only my imagination that I feel I have to puke when smelling roasted beef or somesuch. Besides, I'm vegetarian and still omnivorous, eggs and dietary products are no herbs after all. :smallwink:

---------------------

If I have given anyone the feeling I'm trying to convert them, I apologise. This was not my intention. I wanted to say that a vegetarian diet is a viable and healthy alternative if done properly, not that you should convert.

[Riffington]

I am elitist, by the way. Not so much about vegetarianism. Mostly about the fact that I am better than you.:smallwink:

[Alysar]

In the words of Greg Proops...

"We ran from the animals for three million years. It's our time now."

[Closet_Skeleton]

But anyway, there's a definite problem going on. I can't have a conversation with a vegetarian without feeling on some level that they're trying to convert me or somehow make me feel bad about my omnivorous habits. And about 7 times out of 10, I don't think they're trying to do anything of the sort, but that's how it seems to come out. And because of that, I find myself very biased against vegetarianism.

That's a problem with any ideology. I actually feel the same way about Richard Dawkins.

Some of them are making you feel bad about your habits though. This can be interpreted in more than one way.

1. They felt bad about their habits before they converted and can't understand other forms of thought.

2. They're insecure about their beliefs and feel that if they fail to convert people, it means their own beliefs are invalid. By talking down to people, they can feel that their beliefs are worth fighting for, even if there isn't even a battle that involves their beliefs.

3. They want to feel superior. This is why people join exclusive clubs, many of which involve their own ideologies. This doesn't mean they're evil, life is too hard to live when you accept how much you suck.

4. They just had a bad day, are feeling grouchy and want to dig their claws into something.

Ooops, there goes my misanthropy again...

[ZombieRockStar]

But anyway, there's a definite problem going on. I can't have a conversation with a vegetarian without feeling on some level that they're trying to convert me or somehow make me feel bad about my omnivorous habits. And about 7 times out of 10, I don't think they're trying to do anything of the sort, but that's how it seems to come out. And because of that, I find myself very biased against vegetarianism.

Even me? :smallfrown: I mean...granted that we don't talk very much, but...*resolves to be more careful about his words with others. Also, to talk with Phoe more*


Strange, I get it the other way round to people trying to tell me vegetarianism is outright stupid and I'm only my imagination that I feel I have to puke when smelling roasted beef or somesuch.

Ditto. I guess it's bias on both sides. Over the stupidest of things, really. We're talking about what we eat, and yet it's easy to create militant strawmen vegetarians. I don't eat meat because I worked in a processing plant for a week this summer (I was desperate) and meat just reminds me of how disgusting that place was, not matter how pretty it looks/smells on the other side. I don't care what anyone else eats.

Also, minor grievance, can everybody please stop saying "I could never give up meat" when I tell them that I don't eat meat? I've heard it a hundred times already, thank you. :smallwink:

[Orzel]

I'm an "eateverything"arian. If i can get it my mouth and it's not hazardous, I'm eating it. If'n people weren't so poisonous.

And I kill 1% of my meals. 'Cept in the winter. All the squirrels and pigeons hide and I ate all my farm animals.

I tried quitting meat, but I love chicken too much.
I tried quite fruits and vegies but I like broccoli and OJ too much.

I still wonder how a people burger would taste.

[PhoeKun]

Even me? :smallfrown: I mean...granted that we don't talk very much, but...*resolves to be more careful about his words with others. Also, to talk with Phoe more*

Actually, I don't think we've ever talked about vegetarianism... or maybe we did and I don't remember it. I'm suddenly not so sure. *shrug*

[ZombieRockStar]

Actually, I don't think we've ever talked about vegetarianism... or maybe we did and I don't remember it. I'm suddenly not so sure. *shrug*

Might've come up once maybe at GenCon...I'm not sure either, now. *shrug* Back on topic...

[Turcano]

I still wonder how a people burger would taste.

"Louis Keseberg, the last member of the Donner Party to be rescued, was also the only member of the party to speak openly of his cannibalism. After he was rescued, he opened a restaurant in Sacramento.

His signature 'Keseburgers' did not sell well."

[BizzaroStormy]

I'm ovo-lacto vegetarian and I certainly don't weigh any less than I would with eating meat. I simply do weigh as much as I feel healthy and good with. Still, if you are concerned I would suggest you do what Ossian proposed. Or do like me and simply cut down on the amount of meat you eat gradually until a point where you don't eat any. Nowadays I simply don't like the taste of meat, I even had some problems with eating mushrooms last time because they tasted a bit like this. I also don't like the consistency of meat, it feels bad to me.


There's quite weak arguments on some parts. Especially the whole argument towards people just not liking the taste of meat. Right, we're simply all the same and have to have the same tastes and habits. :smallsigh: Great argument.I got a better one
http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=sponsor

[SDF]

I got a better one

You might want to at the least mark the NSFW nature of Maddox...

I can't afford to be a veggie, but I also LOVE my meat... anyhow it is a lot harder when you are diabetic to cut even more out of your diet. Though I do have a friend who is diabetic, lactose intolerant, and has coeliac disease. I think if he was a veggie he would die of starvation. :P

@V: Not safe for work. A general internet marking for websites with content that could potentially get you in trouble if you open it publicly.

[BizzaroStormy]

NSFW? Whats that mean?

[Yoritomo Himeko]

...Wait, what? :smalleek:



I think he means when he dies, and if he's buried, his body is going to be eaten and digested by worms. Not that he thinks he's going to be killed and eaten by something.

[BizzaroStormy]

It's 11:30 at night. The only people working now are people who work where Maddox is considered a saint.

[Jokes]

It's 11:30 at night. The only people working now are people who work where Maddox is considered a saint.

You are forgetting GITP is a multinational community. Granted it is 3pm on a Saturday where I am, but other people may be at work on their day jobs. Not to mention people may read through this the next day at work.

Anyway, back on topic. I just breezed through the latest pages so don't know if its been said. The study with the IQ and vegetarianism made me chuckle. The premise is that people with high IQ become vegetarians. So chances are they eat the same amount of meat as all the other kids on the study (considering vegetarianism in the 1970s probably wasn't as popular as it is today). So there is no reason to say that having a vegetarian diet makes you smarter.

[BizzaroStormy]

I know, my IQ was deterimined to be ~135(some bullcrap test the school gave us) and i never eat a meal without meat.

[Ceska]

I got a better one
http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=sponsor

Well then, onwards to answer the text.


"I can't eat meat." The four worst words to hear when you're going to a restuarant with someone. I literally cringe every time I hear those words because I know it means that we have to drive around the city for 2 hours looking for some restuarant that serves "friendly" burgers, which ironically look and taste exactly like hamburgers--which vegetarians object to eating because it's either A) gross or B) murder. If it's so gross, then why go out of your way to eat something exactly like it, *******? It's funny how vegetarians suddenly stop bitching about murder as soon as you point out their fancy leather belt or shoes, or that they drive a car and use electricity which contributes to polluting the earth and contaminating everything including the precious animals that they refuse to eat.

Not every vegetarian is in for it because of morals.
It's ridiculous as it is that restaurants can't fulfil the wishes of their consumers to have at least one dish without meat, or fish, in it.
I wear leather shoes and belts. I also am immoral although being vegetarian. I don't care about the moral aspects of wearing leather. But as I see it I prefer to use the parts of animals that already have been killed instead of not doing so once they are dead. I don't like massive farming, but that's another thing, as I said that does not exclude meat eaters at all.



What does it mean to sponsor a vegetarian? It means that you have to find someone in your life who's a really big pain in everyone's ass every time you want to go out to eat, and then you commit yourself to eating THREE times the amount of meat you'd normally consume to make up for all the meat that your vegetarian buddy isn't eating. It's that simple! That way, you can reverse the guilt trip that they've been laying on us for years by not only neutralizing their cause, but making it actually worse by eating more animals than would have ever been eaten had they not chosen to become vegetarians!
The only feeling I get from this is pity for whoever wrote the above, not guilt for his acts. You will not make me feel guilty for the ***t you do. Ever. Period.


619,153 vegetarians have been sponsored by people who don't give a ***t about them or their stupid crusade.
:smallannoyed: Not giving a ***t is the same as violently reacting upon it? Frankly, my English phrases must be very rusty that I could not see this!

If this was a parody, which I'm not sure about since I do not really have a sense of humour, I need to get told if something is supposed to be funny or not, it seemed to fail to cross the line twice. It was so bad it is horrible instead.

[Setra]

NSFW? Whats that mean?
Not Safe For Work

If this was a parody, which I'm not sure about since I do not really have a sense of humour, I need to get told if something is supposed to be funny or not, it seemed to fail to cross the line twice. It was so bad it is horrible instead.
I'm not really sure if it IS Parody.. sometimes I think he has to be joking, but I think sometimes it is serious.

Regardless, never send him hate-mail, you'll regret it.

[Ceska]

Also, minor grievance, can everybody please stop saying "I could never give up meat" when I tell them that I don't eat meat? I've heard it a hundred times already, thank you. :smallwink:
Another of my favourite phrases is "Vegetarier essen meinem Essen das Essen weg". I don't know if there is an English version of it or not, but it means "vegetarians eat my food's food." And frankly, it's one of the most stupid sentences I've ever heard. Has it ever occurred to someone who says this that:

I am trading my meat for higher quality organic vegetables, thus getting the same price you pay for your meal; and food that your average cattle will never even see?
That most farming animals do also eat fish and animal flour, thus the meat eater is actually eating her/his food's food? I know this is not completely correct, but you could theoretically eat the ingredients of fish flour. It's just that you don't because you it is something that you think is disgusting. Then, why am I not allowed to think that of meat while you are allowed to think that of fish flour? Or anything else for that matter?

The last part was directed to a meat eater, not ZRS.


Regardless, never send him hate-mail, you'll regret it.
I do not have the will or time to write and send hate-mails or even hate. If I would hate every little thing I do not like in this world I would only hate and not live anymore.

[Setra]

Another of my favourite phrases is "Vegetarier essen meinem Essen das Essen weg". I don't know if there is an English version of it or not, but it means "vegetarians eat my food's food." And frankly, it's one of the most stupid sentences I've ever heard. Has it ever occurred to someone who says this that:

I am trading my meat for higher quality organic vegetables, thus getting the same price you pay for your meal; and food that your average cattle will never even see?
That most farming animals do also eat fish and animal flour, thus the meat eater is actually eating her/his food's food? I know this is not completely correct, but you could theoretically eat the ingredients of fish flour. It's just that you don't because you it is something that you think is disgusting. Then, why am I not allowed to think that of meat while you are allowed to think that of fish flour? Or anything else for that matter?

The last part was directed to a meat eater, not ZRS.


I do not have the will or time to write and send hate-mails or even hate. If I would hate every little thing I do not like in this world I would only hate and not live anymore.
Well that phrase, while probably intended to be insulting, seems kind of silly to me.

But yeah, I do eat meat, but I also try to understand that people like being vegetarians (which is something I did not used to do, but then I realized that it would be hypocritical of me to make fun of another persons way of life, as I often claim to hate that). I have no problem with em as long as they don't try to use it as moral high ground against me.

As for the second half, that's an interesting way to put it, I wish I could be as peaceful as you. :smalltongue:

[Closet_Skeleton]

It's ridiculous as it is that restaurants can't fulfil the wishes of their consumers to have at least one dish without meat, or fish, in it

What kind of restaurants do you go to? There's always a vegetarian menu whenever I eat out.

An odd story about my dad and vegetarianism is that he went to a restaurant near his work place for lunch often. He often ordered vegetarian food, just because he likes vegetarian food, he also likes meat and fish. It apparently shocked the staff when he ordered food with meat in it, because they assumed that only vegetarians order vegetarian food. Quite bemusing in a way.

I have to agree with Maddox about veggie burgers. If you're not going to eat meat, don't eat fake meat. There are plenty of dishes that don't have meat, yet where not created with vegetarians in mind and are quite delicious.

[Ceska]

What kind of restaurants do you go to? There's always a vegetarian menu whenever I eat out.
Apparently that's how the UK differs from conservative Austria. Even in the cities you have to hope they do have vegetarian dishes. But you know, a meal has to have meat in it. That's how it was and how it will always be. :smallwink:

It's also a reaction to one of the arguments brought that he would have to drive for two hours to find an appropriate restaurant.


An odd story about my dad and vegetarianism is that he went to a restaurant near his work place for lunch often. He often ordered vegetarian food, just because he likes vegetarian food, he also likes meat and fish. It apparently shocked the staff when he ordered food with meat in it, because they assumed that only vegetarians order vegetarian food. Quite bemusing in a way.
:smallbiggrin:

My father does that too though, he says the food is simply of higher quality most of the time.


I have to agree with Maddox about veggie burgers. If you're not going to eat meat, don't eat fake meat. There are plenty of dishes that don't have meat, yet where not created with vegetarians in mind and are quite delicious.
Completely agreed. Mmmmmh, Indian vegetarian dishes. *drools*

[BizzaroStormy]

I'll agree that there are some non-meat things that are good. Popsicles, cheese, my school's potato wedges *drool* But I generally want some meat with my meal.

Now, you mentioned vegetarian menus. Why bother? Just ask for a salad or whatever and tell them not to put the meat in it. I really don't care about the health issues of eating mostly meat since due to this country's(The US) idiotic government. I'll likely be sent off in a couple years to die in Iraq for some redneck's oil. That's the main reason I want to move to some other english-speaking country, like Ireland.

Vegans, on the other hand, piss me all the way off. But I'll save that for when someone makes the vegan thread.

[Capoeira]

wow, this topic went all kinds of unsavory(heh! ...cause were talking about food, its a pun? nevermind...) places.


There is a lot of opinions on here, and thats fine... but there were also some actual untruths, which isnt cool...

eggs, grains, legumes, nuts, and dairy are all fine sources of protein.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_in_nutrition

All Vitamins, including b12, have non-meat sources, though vegans have a harder time with some. Heres the facts on B12 (or one sites version of course)
http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/vitaminb12.asp#h2


The bigger issue here is that I keep seeing these `carnivore´ types getting defensive... and these other vegetarian types provoking more of it by failing to be really open minded about other peoples lifestyle choices.


Also, again, there are many solid studies concerning the lack of sustainability, equality (among producers and workers), and diversity among the worlds food production industries that people should be reading...

Many people just dont know or care about these issues that, I promise, will affect your food supply in your lifetime: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Pacific_Gyre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monsanto
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Fruit
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistent_organic_pollutant



and to the poster above me... why an english country? new languages expand your mind, vocabulary *and* understanding. Right now Im in Brazil, last year I went to Greece and Israel, and although Im going back to Ohio, I plan on either ireland or Japan next!

[Capoeira]

Completely agreed. Mmmmmh, Indian vegetarian dishes. *drools*

Oh god, I really need some curry with some Naan now... but I wont be back in the stats for a week!

*curses himself for not bothering to research teleport without error*

[Ceska]

I'll agree that there are some non-meat things that are good. Popsicles, cheese, my school's potato wedges *drool* But I generally want some meat with my meal.
And that's fine by me.


Now, you mentioned vegetarian menus. Why bother? Just ask for a salad or whatever and tell them not to put the meat in it.
Because I want to eat a normal meal and not a salad? I don't want to have to tell in restaurant which things I don't like. I'd like to simply go to a page with the vegetarian dishes they have and choose from those. There are some great vegetarian dishes in those restaurants I tend to frequent. Those are mostly Chinese and not traditional Austrian though.

To summarise, I'd like not to be treated like a spoiled child but like any other costumer, and expect that I get something different than the same meal where someone just took out the meat in the end. (happened to me).


I really don't care about the health issues of eating mostly meat since due to this country's(The US) idiotic government. I'll likely be sent off in a couple years to die in Iraq for some redneck's oil. That's the main reason I want to move to some other english-speaking country, like Ireland.
Political themes are banned here. Besides, the US does not have instituted the draft.

Still I support your decision to migrate, I want to do that myself soon enough.

[bluewind95]

I got my bi-weekly newsletter today, and, reading through one of the articles, I remembered the thing said about toxins in plants. I think it's pretty interesting, so I'm sharing it:

http://www.brainconnection.com/content/261_1

Work-safe and pretty neutral, I think. It's about why children dislike vegetables adults like.

[Cyclone231]

There's quite weak arguments on some parts. Especially the whole argument towards people just not liking the taste of meat. Right, we're simply all the same and have to have the same tastes and habits. :smallsigh: Great argument.You know what? I don't eat really eat meat either. I used to be a vegetarian. I'm not anymore. But the thing is, in order to be a vegetarian proper, you have to give up the following things, none of which taste like meat:
• Marshmellows. They contain gelatin, which is harvested from dead animals.
• Jell-O. Also contains gelatin.
• Chuy's chaso (queso?). Now, I know that you probably have never been to Chuy's, but this was probably a big part of my de-conversion. I lurv their chaso. It's delicious. But it contains a small portion of, I think it's chicken broth. It's not vegetarian.

I don't feel bad about chickens dying, any more than I do about ants dying. They're so brain-damaged that their bodies continue to operate for significant periods of time after they've been decapitated.

[Forevergrey]

I do not really have a sense of humour, I need to get told if something is supposed to be funny or not, it seemed to fail to cross the line twice.

You don't say.

Good lord sometimes these forums are like the staff room at an accounting firm.


I do not have the will or time to write and send hate-mails or even hate.

And yet you have the time and will to construct long, rambling and totally forgettable posts attacking meat-eating strawmen?

Anyway, this thread is lacking something.

http://img485.imageshack.us/img485/7663/672pxnciclovehampu7.jpg

Protip: CSK, ask a friend if this is funny.

[Ceska]

You don't say.

Good lord sometimes these forums are like the staff room at an accounting firm.

And yet you have the time and will to construct long, rambling and totally forgettable posts attacking meat-eating strawmen?

Anyway, this thread is lacking something.

Protip: CSK, ask a friend if this is funny.
Haha. No.

Yes I do have the time. Sometimes.

I don't need help to know this has not even the slightest bit of humour in it, but my cat thinks it looks quite tasty.


• Marshmellows. They contain gelatin, which is harvested from dead animals.
• Jell-O. Also contains gelatin.
• Chuy's chaso (queso?). Now, I know that you probably have never been to Chuy's, but this was probably a big part of my de-conversion. I lurv their chaso. It's delicious. But it contains a small portion of, I think it's chicken broth. It's not vegetarian.
I know. Aga aga is a bit harder to get your hands on. Fortunately there's better tasting sweets than that though.

[Cyclone231]

I know. Aga aga is a bit harder to get your hands on. Fortunately there's better tasting sweets than that though.
Aga aga? I did a google search the most enlightening page on the subject was this:
CAA AGA--AGA AGA AAG AAA AGA*GGA CTA TTT (http://jcm.asm.org/cgi/content/full/45/2/600/T4)

So unless you're talking about that, please explain yourself.

If you mean to say that there is delicious food to eat when you're a vegetarian, I agree. But the thing is that if you just aren't eating meat because you don't like the taste, that does not make you a vegetarian. There are many foods with dead animal bits in them which taste nothing like meat and are wonderful, so if you don't like the taste of the meat, you would presumably not dislike every other food that happens to include dead animal bits in it, such as my examples and myriad other foods that include it in small quantities.

[Riffington]

Aga aga? I did a google search the most enlightening page on the subject was this:
CAA AGA--AGA AGA AAG AAA AGA*GGA CTA TTT (http://jcm.asm.org/cgi/content/full/45/2/600/T4)


Surely he meant "agar agar".
Which by itself has little taste, it's basically like gelatin (slightly better for some things, but not by much). If your desserts are meat-based instead of cheesecake or chocolate or fruit based, you are missing out on goodness.

[Ceska]

Surely he it meant "agar agar".
Which by itself has little taste, it's basically like gelatin (slightly better for some things, but not by much). If your desserts are meat-based instead of cheesecake or chocolate or fruit based, you are missing out on goodness.
Indeed. It was 1:30 in the morning and I basically was recalling the name from sound alone.


If you mean to say that there is delicious food to eat when you're a vegetarian, I agree. But the thing is that if you just aren't eating meat because you don't like the taste, that does not make you a vegetarian.
Indeed. Unfortunately once you go that way the rest becomes more and more disgusting as well. It did for me. I simply can't stand the thought of eating hooves.

[Cyclone231]

Indeed. Unfortunately once you go that way the rest becomes more and more disgusting as well. It did for me. I simply can't stand the thought of eating hooves.What?

How does the subset "I can't stand the thought of eating hooves" fit into the superset "I don't enjoy the taste of meat"?

[Simius]

But who thinks of all the poor vegetables? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmK0bZl4ILM)

[Ceska]

What?

How does the subset "I can't stand the thought of eating hooves" fit into the superset "I don't enjoy the taste of meat"?
I don't enjoy the taste of meat -> the idea of eating dead animals sounds pretty disgusting -> eating their hooves doesn't sound any better actually. There, that's pretty much how it works. It's not logically, but then, vegetarianism is an ideology, and those are never logical (although some considerations they are based on can be).

But who thinks of all the poor vegetables? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmK0bZl4ILM)
I love that song!

[commander43]

See, vegetarianism is in line with my beliefs, but there are several problems.

1: I'm too skinny already.
2: I love meat!
3: I have a terrible diet because I'm too picky.

See, if I ever get motivated, I might become a pescetarian, but there is no way I could survive on only fruit and veggies. I need my pasta! And seafood! And seafood pasta.

[Solo]

I really don't care about the health issues of eating mostly meat since due to this country's(The US) idiotic government. I'll likely be sent off in a couple years to die in Iraq for some redneck's oil. That's the main reason I want to move to some other english-speaking country, like Ireland.

There are so many things wrong with this statement I don't know where to begin.

Congratulations, sir, for the use of so many misconceptions and offensive stereotypes.

[Cyclone231]

I don't enjoy the taste of meat -> the idea of eating dead animals sounds pretty disgusting -> eating their hooves doesn't sound any better actually.That doesn't make sense. I don't like the taste of meat, therefore eating dead animals is gross?

Either eating dead animals is gross or it isn't. It has nothing to do with how much I enjoy the taste.

There, that's pretty much how it works. It's not logically, but then, vegetarianism is an ideology, and those are never logical (although some considerations they are based on can be).What?

[Ceska]

That doesn't make sense. I don't like the taste of meat, therefore eating dead animals is gross?
No. I don't like the taste of meat, thus I think over the idea of eating meat in general, thus I end up thinking that eating dead animals is gross. It followed as a try to justify it to myself. And as I said, I don't like the structure of the food either.


Either eating dead animals is gross or it isn't. It has nothing to do with how much I enjoy the taste.
It is. When I enjoyed the taste of it I could live with it being gross (because taste of it weighed higher than being grossed out by it).

What?
Generally I think ideologies are not rational. There are some considerations they are based on that are rational and correct, but the ideology is mainly based on the person's emotional stance, not on logic.

[TSGames]

Vegetarianism - LOL.

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

I am a vegetarian to avenge Dostoyevsky's father.

[thubby]

It is. When I enjoyed the taste of it I could live with it being gross (because taste of it weighed higher than being grossed out by it).


not everyone could. and besides, why take the gross when you can all the meaty goodness without the gross factor? (since some think meat is gross)
then you have the "i wont eat tortured animals" crowd, who are vegetarians out of protest.
and finaly there is simply the frailty of humans. alchoholics miss alchohol, priests miss *ahem*, i imagine a vegetarian misses meat at least once.

[averagejoe]

i imagine a vegetarian misses meat at least once.

I actually don't imagine this is true since, unlike the other examples you cited, the need for the taste of meat would be supplimented by other food. I just speculate, not being a vegetarian, but I rarely find myself craving anything other than what's in front of me, and it's difficult to imagine doing so.

[WNxHasoroth]

My personal stance, eat whatever you want as long as your not making me eat it. And to quote Maddox "For every animal you don't eat, I'll eat three."

Im pretty much carnivorous and I like it that way :D

[Setra]

I actually don't imagine this is true since, unlike the other examples you cited, the need for the taste of meat would be supplimented by other food. I just speculate, not being a vegetarian, but I rarely find myself craving anything other than what's in front of me, and it's difficult to imagine doing so.
I on the other hand, crave many things other than what is presented to me.

We had some AWESOME chicken for dinner (breakfast for me?), man it was GREAT, but I couldn't help shake this craving I've had for Chili.

Ironically I was eating ramen a bit ago, and couldn't help have a craving for that chicken.

Now I am craving some chicken, stuffed with some bacon, peppers, mushrooms, onions, and a few other things... Mmm

Damnit I'm hungry now.

[averagejoe]

I on the other hand, crave many things other than what is presented to me.

We had some AWESOME chicken for dinner (breakfast for me?), man it was GREAT, but I couldn't help shake this craving I've had for Chili.

Ironically I was eating ramen a bit ago, and couldn't help have a craving for that chicken.

Now I am craving some chicken, stuffed with some bacon, peppers, mushrooms, onions, and a few other things... Mmm

Damnit I'm hungry now.

Well, I didn't mean that it was never true, just that it isn't necessarily true, especially since the cravings would likely get less with more time without meat.

Damnit, I'm hungry now too. Thanks a lot, Setra. :smallannoyed:

[Setra]

Well, I didn't mean that it was never true, just that it isn't necessarily true, especially since the cravings would likely get less with more time without meat.
I find the reverse is true, I haven't had chili in a year and I've been craving it pretty badly recently.

Damnit, I'm hungry now too. Thanks a lot, Setra. :smallannoyed:
Muahaha

[thubby]

Well, I didn't mean that it was never true, just that it isn't necessarily true, especially since the cravings would likely get less with more time without meat.

Damnit, I'm hungry now too. Thanks a lot, Setra. :smallannoyed:

its more of a loss thing. vegetarians don't have something they used to(meat). the natural human reaction is to want it back. my vegetarian friend has actually mentioned missing meat on several occasions.

[averagejoe]

its more of a loss thing. vegetarians don't have something they used to(meat). the natural human reaction is to want it back. my vegetarian friend has actually mentioned missing meat on several occasions.

But, again, not necessarily. There's no reason to believe that this should be true for all, many, few, or most vegetarians. I mean, I could just as well argue that the natural human reaction is to want it back in the short term, but then adjust to not having it. Truth is, neither one fully describes human behavior. My diet is fairly limited, (because I'm a poor college student, though) but I don't really find myself craving the foods I don't get to eat anymore. That's just me, though. Setra would obviously feel differently.

[Setra]

But, again, not necessarily. There's no reason to believe that this should be true for all, many, few, or most vegetarians. I mean, I could just as well argue that the natural human reaction is to want it back in the short term, but then adjust to not having it. Truth is, neither one fully describes human behavior. My diet is fairly limited, (because I'm a poor college student, though) but I don't really find myself craving the foods I don't get to eat anymore. That's just me, though. Setra would obviously feel differently.Actually on this point I do agree somewhat.

While I do crave these foods, I also know how to make all of these foods, and can afford them.

If I could not get ahold of them, I'd probably either consciously or unconsciously force myself to not want them.

However for a vegetarian it could be different, as it is a choice to no longer have these foods, rather than lack of ability to get them.

In the end it probably depends a lot on why the person stopped eating meat.

[Hell Puppi]

I missed meat when I first turned vegetarian, but oddly enough now I don't even want it anymore.
I went to a friends wedding and was given a free steak. Having only been a vegetarian for a few months, and realizing it was a free meal (I'm a scavanger, okay?), I attempted to eat it. I couldn't. For some reason the texture seemed so gross to me that I couldn't even swallow the first bite.
The weird thing is I had been a pretty voracious carnivore up until that point, and loved steak. Now I've been a vegetarian for quite a while, and the thought of meat doesn't even appeal to me.

Also if you're worried about losing weight, keep in mind what you're body needs and how to fill that. If You're going veggie and not vegan, you still have the ultra-fatty cheeses you can devour, not to mention eggs. There's plenty to keep weight on, just make sure you're diet contains lots of different things (raw veggies, cooked veggies, beans, eggs, ect).

[Setra]

Why would a vegetarian eat eggs? :smallconfused:

[CatCameBack]

Why would a vegetarian eat eggs? :smallconfused:

Because they are yummy.

[Tempest Fennac]

I think it's becuse the contents of the egg was never alive (at least in theory).