Call Lightning and Dispel Magic

[Crake]

So an interesting conversation came up after hitting level 5, talking about call lightning and how one would deal with it using dispel magic. When cast normally, the disc of clouds is an obvious target for dispelling, however, what happens when you use the spell to take over an existing storm? Does the defender need to fly up and dispel the clouds in the sky? Can the effect be ended by dispelling the caster?

[Lord Vukodlak]

So an interesting conversation came up after hitting level 5, talking about call lightning and how one would deal with it using dispel magic. When cast normally, the disc of clouds is an obvious target for dispelling, however, what happens when you use the spell to take over an existing storm? Does the defender need to fly up and dispel the clouds in the sky? Can the effect be ended by dispelling the caster?

I would assume any spell you have to concentrate on can be dispelled by targeting you.

[Jerrykhor]

I would assume any spell you have to concentrate on can be dispelled by targeting you.

That is not correct. If a caster is concentrating on a spell, the spell is not necessarily on him (unless its a specified buff like Haste), therefore cannot be dispelled by targeting him.

[Valmark]

So an interesting conversation came up after hitting level 5, talking about call lightning and how one would deal with it using dispel magic. When cast normally, the disc of clouds is an obvious target for dispelling, however, what happens when you use the spell to take over an existing storm? Does the defender need to fly up and dispel the clouds in the sky? Can the effect be ended by dispelling the caster?

You'd still dispell the storm. Of course it won't go away, but the caster's control on it will.

[Crake]

You'd still dispell the storm. Of course it won't go away, but the caster's control on it will.

Right, so with your interpretation, you'd need to fly up thousands of feet into the air to have the storm be within the 120ft range of dispel magic?


I would assume any spell you have to concentrate on can be dispelled by targeting you.


That is not correct. If a caster is concentrating on a spell, the spell is not necessarily on him (unless its a specified buff like Haste), therefore cannot be dispelled by targeting him.

I would be inclined to agree that not every concentration spell can be dispelled by targeting the caster, however call lightning does bestow some ability to the caster specifically, so I would be willing to entertain that line of thinking for call lightning specifically.

[Valmark]

Right, so with your interpretation, you'd need to fly up thousands of feet into the air to have the storm be within the 120ft range of dispel magic?


Why? Call Lightning has the same range as Dispel Magic. If you needed to do that it'd mean the caster had to do the same to cast Call Lightning first.

[Amnestic]

Right, so with your interpretation, you'd need to fly up thousands of feet into the air to have the storm be within the 120ft range of dispel magic?


The storm is 100 feet above you the caster.


A storm cloud appears in the shape of a Cylinder that is 10 feet tall with a 60-foot radius, centered on a point you can see 100 feet directly above you. The spell fails if you can't see a point in the air where the storm cloud could appear (for example, if you are in a room that can't accommodate the cloud).


With a 120' range on dispel magic and a 60' radius on the stormcloud, it's pretty much guaranteed certain that anyone who could be targeted by the lightning can likewise target the stormcloud in return without having to move, certainly without having to fly.

[Galithar]

Why? Call Lightning has the same range as Dispel Magic. If you needed to do that it'd mean the caster had to do the same to cast Call Lightning first.

Because unlike Dispel Magic, Call Lightning has a specific addition that says if you are outside during a storm and cast the spell it has an effect of giving you control of the existing storm. Meaning you overrule the casting range of the spell.

It also means that combined with something that allows longer vision (Eagle Totem Barb multiclass for example) you could potentially use Call Lightning from a MUCH longer range. The point you choose must be "under the cloud". If the storm reaches a mile out from you, and you can see that far, you can target that far.

The addition of giving you control of am existing storm drastically changes the effect of the spell.

[Valmark]

The storm is 100 feet above you the caster.



With a 120' range on dispel magic and a 60' radius on the stormcloud, it's pretty much guaranteed certain that anyone who could be targeted by the lightning can likewise target the stormcloud in return without having to move, certainly without having to fly.
Small detail that doesn't actually matter- 100 feet was errata'd and became 'within range'. It doesn't change anything since DM has the same range, but I figured I'd mention it.

Because unlike Dispel Magic, Call Lightning has a specific addition that says if you are outside during a storm and cast the spell it has an effect of giving you control of the existing storm. Meaning you overrule the casting range of the spell.

It also means that combined with something that allows longer vision (Eagle Totem Barb multiclass for example) you could potentially use Call Lightning from a MUCH longer range. The point you choose must be "under the cloud". If the storm reaches a mile out from you, and you can see that far, you can target that far.

The addition of giving you control of am existing storm drastically changes the effect of the spell.

Except that nothing says you can take control of a cloud beyond 120 feet or that the storm doesn't shape itself into the standard shape of Call Lightning.

If you're going to run it like that then yeah, Dispel Magic becomes arguably a worst counter to it- no surprise there. Anything tends to perform better if you rule in its favor.

[Segev]

I know it doesn't say it this way, but I wonder if the spell is meant to be saying, "...centered directly above a point you can see within range."

As written, it actually calls for trigonometry to determine the maximum height at which the base or ceiling of the cylinder can be placed, based on how far from the caster it is. It also begs a question as to what constitutes "directly above you;" doest that mean the 120 foot range is only vertical and the sixty foot radius of the cloud must be centered on the caster?

It is also noteworthy that a caster could position the origin point of the spell ten feet over his head and make the origin be on top of the cylinder, thus putting the cloud on the ground. This likely creates obscurement. Without means to see through it, though, the caster is negating his own ability to direct lightning.

[Amnestic]

I know it doesn't say it this way, but I wonder if the spell is meant to be saying, "...centered directly above a point you can see within range."

As written, it actually calls for trigonometry to determine the maximum height at which the base or ceiling of the cylinder can be placed, based on how far from the caster it is. It also begs a question as to what constitutes "directly above you;" doest that mean the 120 foot range is only vertical and the sixty foot radius of the cloud must be centered on the caster?


I'm not so sure it does. My reading is:


A storm cloud appears in the shape of a Cylinder that is 10 feet tall with a 60-foot radius, centered on a point you can see 100 feet directly above you. The spell fails if you can't see a point in the air where the storm cloud could appear (for example, if you are in a room that can't accommodate the cloud).



The storm cloud, which you would dispel with dispel magic, appears as a 10' tall 60' radius cylinder centred above you.


When you cast the spell, choose a point you can see within range. A bolt of lightning flashes down from the cloud to that point.

The range of the spell is 120', and I read it as the range from the caster, not the cloud. Just a straight line up to 120' feet from the caster. This might mean it's more than 120' from the cloud, but it's unlikely to be the case in 99.9999999% of examples.

This reading does mean that you could theoretically cast it in one place, travel for 9 minutes, then start calling down lightning far from the storm cloud.
I am fine with that reading because it will almost never come up and I do not care about edge cases like that.

[Segev]

I'm not so sure it does. My reading is:



The storm cloud, which you would dispel with dispel magic, appears as a 10' tall 60' radius cylinder centred above you.



The range of the spell is 120', and I read it as the range from the caster, not the cloud. Just a straight line up to 120' feet from the caster. This might mean it's more than 120' from the cloud, but it's unlikely to be the case in 99.9999999% of examples.

This reading does mean that you could theoretically cast it in one place, travel for 9 minutes, then start calling down lightning far from the storm cloud.
I am fine with that reading because it will almost never come up and I do not care about edge cases like that.

I think you're either talking past my point/question, or saying the same thing, and I am not sure which.

On way to interpret "centered on a point you can see within range directly above you" is as allowing it to be any distance from touching the top of your head to 120 feet in the air, but the point must be directly over your head.

Another way that confuses because it means "directly" is not literal and thus needs some measure of interpretation is that you can put it anywhere within 120 feet as long as it somehow counts as "directly" overhead even if its not a vertical line upwards.

The more I think about it, the more I suspect it is, in fact, just giving you options for how high it is: the center is right over your head.

[KorvinStarmast]

The spell (call Lightning) said one thing in the first printing, and another after an errata. Are you asking about the later version of the spell's text?

[Amnestic]

I think you're either talking past my point/question, or saying the same thing, and I am not sure which.

Possibly both honestly. My read was that the storm cloud (10' up+down, 60' radius cylinder) had its middle point exactly 100' above you when you cast, with the "that you can see" clause included solely to avoid cases where you might be blinded or that the 100' above you might have total cover (if you're indoors and yes I know its specified later but even so).

The 120' range doesn't have anything to do with the storm cloud's location, is my understanding, it's solely to do with the lightning strikes itself.

Might be wrong though!

[Valmark]

The range of the spell is 120', and I read it as the range from the caster, not the cloud. Just a straight line up to 120' feet from the caster. This might mean it's more than 120' from the cloud, but it's unlikely to be the case in 99.9999999% of examples.

This reading does mean that you could theoretically cast it in one place, travel for 9 minutes, then start calling down lightning far from the storm cloud.
I am fine with that reading because it will almost never come up and I do not care about edge cases like that.

That's been errata'd too! Now the lightning bolts must strike "under the cloud", not "within range". Probably to avoid that problem.

[Amnestic]

That's been errata'd too! Now the lightning bolts must strike "under the cloud", not "within range". Probably to avoid that problem.

Huh, I'm going off roll20's spell description, guess that's not up to date with errata?

Good to know at least.

[Jerrykhor]

Huh, I'm going off roll20's spell description, guess that's not up to date with errata?

Good to know at least.

Roll20 only have spells from SRD, its really not a good source of reference.

[Segev]

Possibly both honestly. My read was that the storm cloud (10' up+down, 60' radius cylinder) had its middle point exactly 100' above you when you cast, with the "that you can see" clause included solely to avoid cases where you might be blinded or that the 100' above you might have total cover (if you're indoors and yes I know its specified later but even so).

The 120' range doesn't have anything to do with the storm cloud's location, is my understanding, it's solely to do with the lightning strikes itself.

Might be wrong though!I have a post-errata version of the PHB, which doesn't have the "100 feet overhead" clause. Just "within range directly overhead." "range" is 120 feet. It also says that the lightning must strike underneath the cloud.


That's been errata'd too! Now the lightning bolts must strike "under the cloud", not "within range". Probably to avoid that problem.

Technically still could call lightning down on things beneath the cloud as long as you can still see them.

Given that casting it beneath a stormy sky is obviously meant to be a power-up and explicitly states it gives you control over the existing storm instead of making a cloud per the description of the spell, I suspect that every aspect of implication given to controlling the entire storm is intended. Yes, it's much higher up and harder to dispel than normal (due to being out of range). It also covers a much larger area, so you can call lightning down anywhere you can see. You can call lightning anywhere beneath the cloud you control, and if you cast it under a stormy sky, you control the entire stormcloud overhead.

Of course, this has rather frightening implications, if run this way, for anybody who has made an enemy of a druid, especially if the druid knows places he frequents. Any time it's stormy out, he has to watch out for lightning bolts.