Help Me Optimize a Level 19 Cleric of Pelor

[Thoughtcandle]

Hey all, I’ll be playing a campaign soon where I’ll be building out a level 19 cleric right off the bat.

Definitely going to be playing a cleric of Pelor into radiant servant of Pelor.

No book restrictions.

While healing will be a focus for me, I’m not going to solely focus on it - I’m looking for versatility and optionality with this build.

I’m still very early with this character, but right now I’m thinking something like...

Cleric 6/RSoP 5/Contemplative 8

Or

Cleric 6/RSoP 5/Contemplative 6/Cleric 2

Really I’m just looking for your thoughts on this build or other optimal builds with RSoP, as there doesn’t seem to be a whole lot out there that isn’t primarily focused on building a solely heal focused cleric.

[Troacctid]

Really I’m just looking for your thoughts on this build or other optimal builds with RSoP, as there doesn’t seem to be a whole lot out there that isn’t primarily focused on building a solely heal focused cleric.
Honestly, I think that's because if you're not focusing on healing, then you're really just a normal casting-focused generalist cleric, and none of the big optimization vectors are going to be specific to RSoP. It makes you better at healing, which you seem to be ruling out, and turning, which, I mean, you can certainly optimize that and completely wreck whatever undead cross your path if that's what you want, but I imagine you wouldn't be headed for contemplative in that case.

So, if you're building a generalist caster, then I would say...pick feats that are good. Maybe one of the two initiate feats for Pelor. Some metamagic, that's always nice to have. Domain feats, reserve feats, divine feats, all very popular as well. You could even throw in a crafting feat. Parties love crafting feats. And even if it's not your main focus, you gotta have some healing stuff, natch. Grab that spontaneous domain casting for Healing. Pick at least one or two of Infused Spellcaster, Imbued Healing, Improved Power (Healing), etc. Oh! Craft Contingent Spell! That's one you'll probably want. Very good with healing spells, and also with cleric spells in general.

[One Step Two]

For Radiant Servant of Pelor, I cannot recommend enough that you look at the Spontaneous Domain Casting cleric variant in PH2, it allows you to spontaneously convert spells known into your domain spells, this is significant, because they then automatically benefit from RSoP's ability to maximize/empower healing domain spells meaning that you don't need to worry even slightly about your efficacy as a healer, because all your heals will be the best they can be. More importantly, frees up your domain slots for the other domains you have, which I cannot recommend Glory enough as a candidate, it has some good spells in the mix, and helps keep your Turning up when you dip other divine Prestige Classes.

For other prestige classes I recommend Divine Oracle from complete divine also, it grants you you Prescient Sense, which is Evasion in heavy armor, and Improved Uncanny Dodge at level 6, a build may look like

Cleric 5 / Divine Oracle 6/ Radiant Servant of Pelor 8 at 19th level.

[Biggus]

If you're starting at level 19, I presume the game is going into epic levels? If so, you might want to think about making sure you have the prerequisites for some of the better epic feats, like Epic Spellcasting, Ignore Material Components, Multispell and (if the game is likely to reach level 27+) Improved Metamagic.

[H_H_F_F]

My questions would be, optimized for what? And how optimized?

Optimized for what, meaning, what do you want to do? You said versatility, but that's a large umbrella. Do you wan't a lot of melee combat prowess? Do you want good shut-down options? Do you want to emulate a skill monkey?

How optimized, meaning, how high-op is your group? Would very cheesy tricks (nightsticks, etc) be in or out of place?

Either way, if you're going with the prestige classes you've mentioned, it doesn't sound like HP and BaB are super important to you, so cloistered cleric might be a good option. I'll second the recommendation for spontaneous domain casting as well.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Consider including Morninglord of Lathander in PGtF (Lathander is basically the FR version of Pelor). Contemplative is a bad choice IMO because it doesn't progress your Cleric level for turn undead, which can outright destroy entire encounters if you do it right.

Definitely use the PH2 spontaneous domain casting ACF for the Healing domain. This makes every healing spell you cast spontaneously count as a domain spell, and even allows you to spontaneously cast Heal.


I'd go Cleric 5/ Morninglord 1/ Radiant Servant 5/ Contemplative 1/ Morninglord 7 starting out. Start with the Sun and Healing domains, pick up Glory from Radian Servant, and from Contemplative get another domain (Strength or Good) or a devotion feat in CC. You can pick up devotion feats normally so I'd get a domain unless you're short on feats. Sun Devotion can be useful for combating creatures vulnerable to sunlight (and ask if Morninglord will double the radius), Strength Devotion can be useful as well. Maybe even go Illumian with the feat Bright Sigil if Morninglord will double the radius of that as well.

Get all the items that improve your effective level for turn undead: Phylactery of Undead Turning (+4), Rod of Defiance (-4 turn resistance), Scepter of the Netherworld (+3), Ephod of Authority (+1). Both the rod and scepter say they need to be held, since both are slotless (held isn't an item slot) and they're roughly the same shape they can probably be combined into a single item (or just duct tape them together and hold them in one hand). As often as you can convert a normal turning into a greater turning, you should be able to outright destroy any and all undead you'll encounter in a single turn. Granted this likely means you just won't fight any undead after the first encounter with some, or they'll have an evil cleric or similar bolstering them, or they'll need to have Lifeward dispelled first. Regardless, those items aren't very expensive and it's totally worth it and very on-theme for the character.

[Thoughtcandle]

Honestly, I think that's because if you're not focusing on healing, then you're really just a normal casting-focused generalist cleric, and none of the big optimization vectors are going to be specific to RSoP. It makes you better at healing, which you seem to be ruling out, and turning, which, I mean, you can certainly optimize that and completely wreck whatever undead cross your path if that's what you want, but I imagine you wouldn't be headed for contemplative in that case.

So, if you're building a generalist caster, then I would say...pick feats that are good. Maybe one of the two initiate feats for Pelor. Some metamagic, that's always nice to have. Domain feats, reserve feats, divine feats, all very popular as well. You could even throw in a crafting feat. Parties love crafting feats. And even if it's not your main focus, you gotta have some healing stuff, natch. Grab that spontaneous domain casting for Healing. Pick at least one or two of Infused Spellcaster, Imbued Healing, Improved Power (Healing), etc. Oh! Craft Contingent Spell! That's one you'll probably want. Very good with healing spells, and also with cleric spells in general.

Definitely not ruling healing out, just don’t want it to be my sole focus - that being said, I still fully plan to incorporate it into the build.

In regards to your feat suggestions, all great - deeply appreciated.

[Thoughtcandle]

For Radiant Servant of Pelor, I cannot recommend enough that you look at the Spontaneous Domain Casting cleric variant in PH2, it allows you to spontaneously convert spells known into your domain spells, this is significant, because they then automatically benefit from RSoP's ability to maximize/empower healing domain spells meaning that you don't need to worry even slightly about your efficacy as a healer, because all your heals will be the best they can be. More importantly, frees up your domain slots for the other domains you have, which I cannot recommend Glory enough as a candidate, it has some good spells in the mix, and helps keep your Turning up when you dip other divine Prestige Classes.

For other prestige classes I recommend Divine Oracle from complete divine also, it grants you you Prescient Sense, which is Evasion in heavy armor, and Improved Uncanny Dodge at level 6, a build may look like

Cleric 5 / Divine Oracle 6/ Radiant Servant of Pelor 8 at 19th level.

Definitely planning on taking the spontaneous domain variant, was already on my radar.

In regards to your build suggestion - you think divine oracle > contemplative? Don’t get me wrong, evasion & improved uncanny dodge in heavy armor is awesome... but do you think it’s worth it over the additional domains you get from contemplative?

Edit: I’m also pretty committed to jumping out of RSoP @ level 5, as the capstone doesn’t seem all that worth while to me compared to the level 5 ability and level 5-9 is mostly dead levels.

[Thoughtcandle]

If you're starting at level 19, I presume the game is going into epic levels? If so, you might want to think about making sure you have the prerequisites for some of the better epic feats, like Epic Spellcasting, Ignore Material Components, Multispell and (if the game is likely to reach level 27+) Improved Metamagic.

It will almost certainly be going into epic levels, so good suggestions I’ll 100% look into.

But for now, I’m focused on determining potential build options using RSoP.

[Thoughtcandle]

My questions would be, optimized for what? And how optimized?

Optimized for what, meaning, what do you want to do? You said versatility, but that's a large umbrella. Do you wan't a lot of melee combat prowess? Do you want good shut-down options? Do you want to emulate a skill monkey?

How optimized, meaning, how high-op is your group? Would very cheesy tricks (nightsticks, etc) be in or out of place?

Either way, if you're going with the prestige classes you've mentioned, it doesn't sound like HP and BaB are super important to you, so cloistered cleric might be a good option. I'll second the recommendation for spontaneous domain casting as well.

We have an absurdly capable barbarian in our party, so I didn’t feel the need to focus as heavily on BaB - and with HP, I’m planning on persisting buffs, so also not as much of a concern.

Just curious, how would you build a cleric with 5 levels of RSoP?

[Thoughtcandle]

Consider including Morninglord of Lathander in PGtF (Lathander is basically the FR version of Pelor). Contemplative is a bad choice IMO because it doesn't progress your Cleric level for turn undead, which can outright destroy entire encounters if you do it right.

Definitely use the PH2 spontaneous domain casting ACF for the Healing domain. This makes every healing spell you cast spontaneously count as a domain spell, and even allows you to spontaneously cast Heal.


I'd go Cleric 5/ Morninglord 1/ Radiant Servant 5/ Contemplative 1/ Morninglord 7 starting out. Start with the Sun and Healing domains, pick up Glory from Radian Servant, and from Contemplative get another domain (Strength or Good) or a devotion feat in CC. You can pick up devotion feats normally so I'd get a domain unless you're short on feats. Sun Devotion can be useful for combating creatures vulnerable to sunlight (and ask if Morninglord will double the radius), Strength Devotion can be useful as well. Maybe even go Illumian with the feat Bright Sigil if Morninglord will double the radius of that as well.

Get all the items that improve your effective level for turn undead: Phylactery of Undead Turning (+4), Rod of Defiance (-4 turn resistance), Scepter of the Netherworld (+3), Ephod of Authority (+1). Both the rod and scepter say they need to be held, since both are slotless (held isn't an item slot) and they're roughly the same shape they can probably be combined into a single item (or just duct tape them together and hold them in one hand). As often as you can convert a normal turning into a greater turning, you should be able to outright destroy any and all undead you'll encounter in a single turn. Granted this likely means you just won't fight any undead after the first encounter with some, or they'll have an evil cleric or similar bolstering them, or they'll need to have Lifeward dispelled first. Regardless, those items aren't very expensive and it's totally worth it and very on-theme for the character.

Great suggestions, I’ll have to see if my DM will allow morninglord but it looks like it compliments radiant servant well.

[Troacctid]

Edit: I’m also pretty committed to jumping out of RSoP @ level 5, as the capstone doesn’t seem all that worth while to me compared to the level 5 ability and level 5-9 is mostly dead levels.
Is it safe to assume you're planning to take Mastery of Day and Night, then? In my experience, that's the main reason why you would eschew the level 6 ability. If you're already auto-maximizing your cure spells, then you would be actively nerfing yourself by replacing the auto-empower with a redundant effect.


Get all the items that improve your effective level for turn undead: Phylactery of Undead Turning (+4), Rod of Defiance (-4 turn resistance), Scepter of the Netherworld (+3), Ephod of Authority (+1).
There's more. In ascending order by cost: flametouched iron holy symbol (+1), talisman of undead mastery (up to +4, limited charges per day), greater holy symbol (x1.5 turning damage), moonfriend (+3), and icon of Ravenloft (+4).

You might also look at a Khyber shard holy symbol, which grants you elemental turning, and a circlet of persuasion, which grants a +3 bonus to all Charisma checks (including turning checks).

[Biggus]

It will almost certainly be going into epic levels, so good suggestions I’ll 100% look into.

But for now, I’m focused on determining potential build options using RSoP.

OK, to be more specific I meant: as in two levels time the first 3 epic feats I mentioned will become available, you may wish to leave room in your build for the prerequisite feats Eschew Materials and Quicken Spell, and also to make sure you have enough skill points available to keep both Spellcraft and Knowledge (Religion) maxed out (not a trivial concern when Cleric and many Cleric-based prestige classes only give 2 per level). It would suck to be awesome at level 19 and 20 and then at level 21 realise none of the best options are available to you.

[Thoughtcandle]

Is it safe to assume you're planning to take Mastery of Day and Night, then? In my experience, that's the main reason why you would eschew the level 6 ability. If you're already auto-maximizing your cure spells, then you would be actively nerfing yourself by replacing the auto-empower with a redundant effect.


There's more. In ascending order by cost: flametouched iron holy symbol (+1), talisman of undead mastery (up to +4, limited charges per day), greater holy symbol (x1.5 turning damage), moonfriend (+3), and icon of Ravenloft (+4).

You might also look at a Khyber shard holy symbol, which grants you elemental turning, and a circlet of persuasion, which grants a +3 bonus to all Charisma checks (including turning checks).

I’m actually unfamiliar with master of day and night, maybe I should reconsider and take RSoP to level 6

Edit: I was mistaken in the first place, the level 6 ability is the one I would hold opt out of after - I thought it was what I gained at level 5.

So yes, I would 100% take RSoP to level 6

[Thoughtcandle]

OK, to be more specific I meant: as in two levels time the first 3 epic feats I mentioned will become available, you may wish to leave room in your build for the prerequisite feats Eschew Materials and Quicken Spell, and also to make sure you have enough skill points available to keep both Spellcraft and Knowledge (Religion) maxed out (not a trivial concern when Cleric and many Cleric-based prestige classes only give 2 per level). It would suck to be awesome at level 19 and 20 and then at level 21 realise none of the best options are available to you.

Agreed, I’ll make sure I delegate accordingly

[Troacctid]

I’m actually unfamiliar with master of day and night, maybe I should reconsider and take RSoP to level 6

Edit: I was mistaken in the first place, the level 6 ability is the one I would hold opt out of after - I thought it was what I gained at level 5.

So yes, I would 100% take RSoP to level 6
Mastery of Day and Night would effectively give you the capstone eight levels ahead of schedule in exchange for two feats (itself, plus the Maximize Spell prerequisite), so it is worth considering, depending on how your feats shake out.

[H_H_F_F]

Mastery of Day and Night would effectively give you the capstone eight levels ahead of schedule in exchange for two feats (itself, plus the Maximize Spell prerequisite), so it is worth considering, depending on how your feats shake out.

I'd usually say it surely is, but since this character's starting level is 19, I'd say just go to 6. There's something to be said for free empower+maximise, of course, but is it worth 2 feats? I'm unsure.

[Thoughtcandle]

Just curious for those in this thread...

Any PrC’s I’m not looking at that would be good consideration for radiant servant, or to add in place of contemplative?

[Troacctid]

I'd usually say it surely is, but since this character's starting level is 19, I'd say just go to 6. There's something to be said for free empower+maximise, of course, but is it worth 2 feats? I'm unsure.
I mean, it depends on whether you value Maximize Spell or not, yeah? Maybe it's a good enough metamagic feat on its own that you're happy to have it for its own sake.


Just curious for those in this thread...

Any PrC’s I’m not looking at that would be good consideration for radiant servant, or to add in place of contemplative?
Church inquisitor and paragnostic apostle are always solid picks for caster clerics.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You could always go memetic irony and play as the cleric of Pelor, the Burning Hate (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?443306-quot-Pelor-the-Burning-Hate-quot-(from-Wizards-forum)). Be an Evil (or Neutral) cloistered cleric (or archivist) of an ideal that is basically the memetic Pelor, the Burning Hate, and play as a heretic of the faith. Perhaps an older, more primal aspect of the same god, who decided to go for better PR and gain power by staging a coup on his old ideology and "overthrowing" his own theological order with a new persona.

Could be fun for RP, as well as give you options you otherwise couldn't make use of (ie, basically any evil options you want to faff about with).

[Biggus]

Church inquisitor and paragnostic apostle are always solid picks for caster clerics.

I've not really looked at paragnostic apostle before. On a scan over it, none of its class abilities seem particularly inspiring. On the other hand, it fully progresses spellcasting, turn undead and domain effects and costs very little to enter (just some skill points). Am I missing something about it, or is just good because its class features are effectively almost free?

[Thoughtcandle]

You could always go memetic irony and play as the cleric of Pelor, the Burning Hate (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?443306-quot-Pelor-the-Burning-Hate-quot-(from-Wizards-forum)). Be an Evil (or Neutral) cloistered cleric (or archivist) of an ideal that is basically the memetic Pelor, the Burning Hate, and play as a heretic of the faith. Perhaps an older, more primal aspect of the same god, who decided to go for better PR and gain power by staging a coup on his old ideology and "overthrowing" his own theological order with a new persona.

Could be fun for RP, as well as give you options you otherwise couldn't make use of (ie, basically any evil options you want to faff about with).

It’s cool flavor wise, but not this time around - HOLY WARRIOR OF LIGHT

[Thoughtcandle]

I've not really looked at paragnostic apostle before. On a scan over it, none of its class abilities seem particularly inspiring. On the other hand, it fully progresses spellcasting, turn undead and domain effects and costs very little to enter (just some skill points). Am I missing something about it, or is just good because its class features are effectively almost free?

Any of your own recommendations?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

It’s cool flavor wise, but not this time around - HOLY WARRIOR OF LIGHTYou know what they say: Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition Burning Hate!

[Biggus]

Any of your own recommendations?

Most of the ones I'd have recommended have already been mentioned. Thaumaturgist is pretty decent if summoning is something you're interested in.

Beyond that, if persisted buffs are one of your focuses increasing your caster level vs dispelling will be important, the feats Spell Girding and Divine Spell Power could help with that.

[Troacctid]

I've not really looked at paragnostic apostle before. On a scan over it, none of its class abilities seem particularly inspiring. On the other hand, it fully progresses spellcasting, turn undead and domain effects and costs very little to enter (just some skill points). Am I missing something about it, or is just good because its class features are effectively almost free?
It's free, but also it has some good abilities. +2 effective level for turning, +1 to spell penetration and dispelling, +1 caster level for a domain, and +2 AC for luminous armor are all excellent.

[One Step Two]

Definitely planning on taking the spontaneous domain variant, was already on my radar.

In regards to your build suggestion - you think divine oracle > contemplative? DonÂ’t get me wrong, evasion & improved uncanny dodge in heavy armor is awesome... but do you think itÂ’s worth it over the additional domains you get from contemplative?

Edit: IÂ’m also pretty committed to jumping out of RSoP @ level 5, as the capstone doesnÂ’t seem all that worth while to me compared to the level 5 ability and level 5-9 is mostly dead levels.

With regards to the contemplative, there's a couple of issues, the first is that you get Divine Health twice, which is a bit of a waste. The extra domains are nice, but by default Pelor has the Glory, Good, Healing, Strength and Sun domains. You will pick two for Cleric, Sun and Healing for Example, and RSoP gives you Glory, contemplative gives you the last two their sort of okay, and I would remind you that the Substitute Domain spell exists. With Divine Oracle giving you the Oracle Domain, you can use Substitute Domain (which lasts days/level) on Oracle (or any domain) to give you the tools you need. In essence, you're getting more tools from Divine Oracle which can help you in the long-term, and some of the spells in to Oracle Domain are pretty neat!

If you are allowed to use Dragon magazine I do have one idea related to making you a mounted holy warrior: Taking 2 levels of the Prestige Palain (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin), this will give you Divine grace for your Charisma to Saves, and the Paladin Special mount, Dragon Mag 325 has the Holy Mount feat, letting your paladin levels stack with all divine classes for mount special abilities. Pick up Dragon Mount and Dragon Cohort from Draconomicon, and enjoy riding around on a Silver or Gold Dragon, complete with bonus hit dice and shared spells!

If you're looking at Forgotten Realms Classes, Divine Disciple gives you a bonus domain, full casting over 5 levels, and transformation into a Native Outsider, a short but good class, especially since it lets you have protection from Evil on at all times. That ability was lost in the update in the Players Guide to Faerun.

Lastly, if you don't mind taking a hit to your caster level, a single dip Into Pious Templar for the Mettle Ability, a powerful defensive ability going into Epic.

[Biggus]

It's free, but also it has some good abilities. +2 effective level for turning, +1 to spell penetration and dispelling, +1 caster level for a domain, and +2 AC for luminous armor are all excellent.

I'd have called most of those "quite good" rather than "excellent" myself, but if you get them all in a 5-level class and give up almost nothing to get them, that is pretty decent.

[Thoughtcandle]

I'd have called most of those "quite good" rather than "excellent" myself, but if you get them all in a 5-level class and give up almost nothing to get them, that is pretty decent.

Agreed, that is pretty good...

[Anthrowhale]

Prestige Paladin 2 + the Serenity feat on a cleric grants great saves and more turn undead. Between that and the Pride domain (which clerics of pelor can access), you can power through many saving throws.

Maybe something like Lawful Good Lesser Aasimar Cloistered Cleric of Pelor {Sun, Spontaneous Healing, Knowledge} 2/Paragnostic Apostle 2/Church Inquisitor 1/Radiant Servant of Pelor 6/Contemplative 1/Prestige Paladin 3/Divine Oracle 1/Paragnostic Apostle 3?

With feats:
1. Extra Turning
3. Extend Spell
6. Persistent Spell
9. DMM[Persistent Spell] // up to 3/day, or 6/day with a rod of extend spell.
12. Mounted Combat
Frog God's Fane. Skill Focus[Knowledge[Religion]]
15. Serenity //Wisdom powers turn undead
18. Battle Blessing //all paladin spells quickened
Knowledge Domain. Knowledge Devotion

You have L18 cleric spell access, +1 healing spells, +2 divination spells (Oracle Domain)
+4 to dispel checks (Inquisition Domain)+1 (paragnostic)
+1 spell resistance checks (paragnostic)
Healing domain spells are automatically maximized (RSoP)
+2 to AC of all AC bonus spells (paragnostic)
Two other paragnostic extras
Up to 6 persistent spells active at a time.
Paladin spells are automatically quickened.
Turn undead level 18=16+2(Paragnostic), Greater Turning 4+Cha times/day (Sun + RSoP 1), Turning Check+2 (Glory domain), Turning damage+1d6 (Glory Domain)
+Wisdom bonus to all saves + reroll on a 1 (Pride Domain)
Access to Sun, Healing, Glory, Inquisition, Oracle, and Pride domains.
Divine Health, Aura of Courage, etc...

With respect to turning level, don't forget the spell 'Light of Wisdom'.

[Thoughtcandle]

Prestige Paladin 2 + the Serenity feat on a cleric grants great saves and more turn undead. Between that and the Pride domain (which clerics of pelor can access), you can power through many saving throws.

Maybe something like Lawful Good Lesser Aasimar Cloistered Cleric of Pelor {Sun, Spontaneous Healing, Knowledge} 2/Paragnostic Apostle 2/Church Inquisitor 1/Radiant Servant of Pelor 6/Contemplative 1/Prestige Paladin 3/Divine Oracle 1/Paragnostic Apostle 3?

With feats:
1. Extra Turning
3. Extend Spell
6. Persistent Spell
9. DMM[Persistent Spell] // up to 3/day, or 6/day with a rod of extend spell.
12. Mounted Combat
Frog God's Fane. Skill Focus[Knowledge[Religion]]
15. Serenity //Wisdom powers turn undead
18. Battle Blessing //all paladin spells quickened
Knowledge Domain. Knowledge Devotion

You have L18 cleric spell access, +1 healing spells, +2 divination spells (Oracle Domain)
+4 to dispel checks (Inquisition Domain)+1 (paragnostic)
+1 spell resistance checks (paragnostic)
Healing domain spells are automatically maximized (RSoP)
+2 to AC of all AC bonus spells (paragnostic)
Two other paragnostic extras
Up to 6 persistent spells active at a time.
Paladin spells are automatically quickened.
Turn undead level 18=16+2(Paragnostic), Greater Turning 4+Cha times/day (Sun + RSoP 1), Turning Check+2 (Glory domain), Turning damage+1d6 (Glory Domain)
+Wisdom bonus to all saves + reroll on a 1 (Pride Domain)
Access to Sun, Healing, Glory, Inquisition, Oracle, and Pride domains.
Divine Health, Aura of Courage, etc...

With respect to turning level, don't forget the spell 'Light of Wisdom'.

This looks very interesting, although I’m not sure prestige Paladin is an option as normal paladins exist in this campaign and I believe my DM would rule against prestige Paladin because of that.

[the_tick_rules]

1 or 2 levels of hierophant might be worth considering. touch spells at 30 or 60 feet is awesome. Personally i like the contemplative prestige class over radiant servant of pelor, it has some awesome buffs.

[Thoughtcandle]

1 or 2 levels of hierophant might be worth considering. touch spells at 30 or 60 feet is awesome. Personally i like the contemplative prestige class over radiant servant of pelor, it has some awesome buffs.

Not sure the hit to casting levels is worth the abilities

[Anthrowhale]

This looks very interesting, although I’m not sure prestige Paladin is an option as normal paladins exist in this campaign and I believe my DM would rule against prestige Paladin because of that.

There aren't that many classes which keep Turn Undead up. More levels of cloistered cleric might be a better choice just due to the extra skill points.

If you want to go nuts with persistent spell, then you could take a level of Spelldancer after paying the heavy feat tax.

Edit: One other thought is that you might want to use the Divine Magician ACF for clerics. You trade a domain at level 1 for the ability to pick 9 spells, one of each level, from the wizard list in the schools abjuration, necromancy, and divination. Something like: Disjunction/Mystic Shield/Righteous Glare/Starmantle/Duelward/Ray Deflection/Nondetection/Spectral Hand/True Strike might work well.

[Biggus]

Not sure the hit to casting levels is worth the abilities

Hierophant is worth considering after you reach epic levels, because you don't lose any spellcasting then. Agreed that it's generally not worth it pre-epic.

[Thoughtcandle]

There aren't that many classes which keep Turn Undead up. More levels of cloistered cleric might be a better choice just due to the extra skill points.

If you want to go nuts with persistent spell, then you could take a level of Spelldancer after paying the heavy feat tax.

Edit: One other thought is that you might want to use the Divine Magician ACF for clerics. You trade a domain at level 1 for the ability to pick 9 spells, one of each level, from the wizard list in the schools abjuration, necromancy, and divination. Something like: Disjunction/Mystic Shield/Righteous Glare/Starmantle/Duelward/Ray Deflection/Nondetection/Spectral Hand/True Strike might work well.

That would also open up Dweomerkeeper as a possibility...

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Going Cleric 5/ Morninglord 1/ Radiant Servant 6/ Morninglord 9 is 21 levels of turn undead progression. Continue taking Morninglord in the epic levels, or take Sacred Exorcist or similar if you want to change it up.

Hierophant is indeed useful after you've got 20 levels of spellcasting, but doesn't advance your turn undead level. You can even take Practiced Spellcaster and apply that before the Hierophant caster level increase.

[Anthrowhale]

That would also open up Dweomerkeeper as a possibility...

DK does not synergize well with Pelor---you lack access to the magic domain, the spells you get from divine magician are cast as divine spells, and DK does not advance turn undead. TU requires near-constant investment to stay relevant.

[Thoughtcandle]

Going Cleric 5/ Morninglord 1/ Radiant Servant 6/ Morninglord 9 is 21 levels of turn undead progression. Continue taking Morninglord in the epic levels, or take Sacred Exorcist or similar if you want to change it up.

Hierophant is indeed useful after you've got 20 levels of spellcasting, but doesn't advance your turn undead level. You can even take Practiced Spellcaster and apply that before the Hierophant caster level increase.

So here’s the issue with Pelor/morninglord.

My DM has both Pelor and Lathander existing in sort of alternate universes in his world, so he’s against substitution of them because they both technically exist in his world.

He DID say I could change radiant servant of pelor to radiant servant of lethander, but that loses me the healing domain - basically making the majority of Pelors class features non-effective.

To simplify, I could do radiant servant + morninglord of Lathander because of how radiant servant of Pelor is written, but I couldn’t do radiant servant + morninglord of Pelor.


DK does not synergize well with Pelor---you lack access to the magic domain, the spells you get from divine magician are cast as divine spells, and DK does not advance turn undead. TU requires near-constant investment to stay relevant.

All good points, thanks for clearing that up

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If you're going for any kind of healing focus, heavily consider either taking Draconic Aura: Vigor, getting access to the ToB healing maneuvers (crusader's strike and devoted spirit), or getting a minion who does one or all of those things. Free healing will do a LOT to extend your reserves, even if it's just "fast healing to 1/2 max hp."

A dip into crusader would definitely be more than a bit useful.

Some CL 1 wands of lesser vigor would also help, since they're one of the most cost-effective forms of healing in the game per gp spent.

[Thoughtcandle]

If you're going for any kind of healing focus, heavily consider either taking Draconic Aura: Vigor, getting access to the ToB healing maneuvers (crusader's strike and devoted spirit), or getting a minion who does one or all of those things. Free healing will do a LOT to extend your reserves, even if it's just "fast healing to 1/2 max hp."

A dip into crusader would definitely be more than a bit useful.

Some CL 1 wands of lesser vigor would also help, since they're one of the most cost-effective forms of healing in the game per gp spent.

Definitely considered dipping into crusader.

Curious, how would you build in a crusader dip?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Definitely considered dipping into crusader.

Curious, how would you build in a crusader dip?The highest level possible for the highest level maneuvers. Figure out which ones you want to take innately and which ones you want to add to items (and add several instances to a single item, via the rules in the MIC for adding abilities to existing items).

Don't bother using feats on maneuvers themselves, since the items will do that for you, although some Extra Granted Maneuver might be nice, especially if you can get feats from items and use the Dark Chaos Feat Shuffle to swap them for what you want.

Really, it's pretty straightforward.

Unfortunately, The authors of ToB thought it was a great idea for the only divine/initiator theurge PrC to be for a very specific deity, which locks out every other divine caster in the whole game from taking proper advantage, instead of, y'know, actually allowing other types of divine casters or clerics of other deities other than Wee Jas. Who the hell follows Wee Jas, anyway? I mean, what about all the people playing any other class or any other cleric of any other god in any other setting aside from AEIOUOAERTH?

Seriously. Why?

[Thoughtcandle]

The highest level possible for the highest level maneuvers. Figure out which ones you want to take innately and which ones you want to add to items (and add several instances to a single item, via the rules in the MIC for adding abilities to existing items).

Don't bother using feats on maneuvers themselves, since the items will do that for you, although some Extra Granted Maneuver might be nice, especially if you can get feats from items and use the Dark Chaos Feat Shuffle to swap them for what you want.

Really, it's pretty straightforward.

Unfortunately, The authors of ToB thought it was a great idea for the only divine/initiator theurge PrC to be for a very specific deity, which locks out every other divine caster in the whole game from taking proper advantage, instead of, y'know, actually allowing other types of divine casters or clerics of other deities other than Wee Jas. Who the hell follows Wee Jas, anyway? I mean, what about all the people playing any other class or any other cleric of any other god in any other setting aside from AEIOUOAERTH?

Seriously. Why?

Agreed 110% - I think it’s stupid as well. If I were DM, I would definitely let a player go into RKV with whatever deity they wanted to open up greater possibility.

But to each their own.

In regards to including 1 level crusader, do you think it‘a as simple as, let’s say...

Cleric 6/radiant servant 6/crusader 1/ X 7

X with the initial post being contemplative, but I feel like there’s probably another PrC whose class features would compliment more.

[Troacctid]

If you're going for any kind of healing focus, heavily consider either taking Draconic Aura: Vigor, getting access to the ToB healing maneuvers (crusader's strike and devoted spirit), or getting a minion who does one or all of those things. Free healing will do a LOT to extend your reserves, even if it's just "fast healing to 1/2 max hp."

A dip into crusader would definitely be more than a bit useful.

Some CL 1 wands of lesser vigor would also help, since they're one of the most cost-effective forms of healing in the game per gp spent.
I personally like Touch of Healing for this purpose if you're an actual healing-focused caster, since it gives you that nice +1 caster level for your healing spells (although it admittedly does not stack with the bonus from Mitigate Suffering or a ring of mystic healing).

[MaxiDuRaritry]

See if your DM will allow ruby knight vindicator without the stupid "you must be this tall worship this god to ride" prereq. Which is stupidly stupid. There's absolutely nothing mechanically that requires it, and it just forces players to play one character type and that's it, when it could be a lot more.

[Troacctid]

RKV doesn't really synergize with RSoP...it's more of a gish class. I wouldn't worry about it, or crusader, unless you want to do the gish thing.

[AvatarVecna]

It gets a bad rep around these parts, but healing magic is still magic so you get enough of it that even zero investment in improving it will still see it absolutely dominate.

Like...Cleric 19 with Wis 26 in a 5-man band with no healing investment (including no domain) is looking at 255d8+4618 healz per day (avg 5765.5 healz). A lot of that will end up wasted taking somebody above max health, but that's easily 7 times the total HP of the party. So even assuming a good deal of waste, you'll take everybody from near-dead to full maybe 3-4 times a day? Granted, this is soending spells on nothing else, but that's the WotC level of optimization. This is the awful reality WotC expected play to happen at. And cleric is still 100% bonkers.

Imagine what it looks like with serious investment.

[Thoughtcandle]

It gets a bad rep around these parts, but healing magic is still magic so you get enough of it that even zero investment in improving it will still see it absolutely dominate.

Like...Cleric 19 with Wis 26 in a 5-man band with no healing investment (including no domain) is looking at 255d8+4618 healz per day (avg 5765.5 healz). A lot of that will end up wasted taking somebody above max health, but that's easily 7 times the total HP of the party. So even assuming a good deal of waste, you'll take everybody from near-dead to full maybe 3-4 times a day? Granted, this is soending spells on nothing else, but that's the WotC level of optimization. This is the awful reality WotC expected play to happen at. And cleric is still 100% bonkers.

Imagine what it looks like with serious investment.

So are you suggesting just run pure cleric?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, page 9, Deity Conversion table shows Pelor = Ilmater, Lathander, Torm. So RAW, a core Cleric who worships Pelor is equivalent to a Cleric who worships any of those three if converted to a FR character. RAW, Morninglord is just as applicable to worshippers of Pelor as it is to those of Lathander, because they're the same thing as far as the rules are concerned, even if both exist in the same game.

[Thoughtcandle]

Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, page 9, Deity Conversion table shows Pelor = Ilmater, Lathander, Torm. So RAW, a core Cleric who worships Pelor is equivalent to a Cleric who worships any of those three if converted to a FR character. RAW, Morninglord is just as applicable to worshippers of Pelor as it is to those of Lathander, because they're the same thing as far as the rules are concerned, even if both exist in the same game.

So you’re saying that, according to RAW, it should go both ways?

Meaning Lethander & Pelor should more or less be interchangeable for the sake of classes?

[Biggus]

Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, page 9, Deity Conversion table shows Pelor = Ilmater, Lathander, Torm. So RAW, a core Cleric who worships Pelor is equivalent to a Cleric who worships any of those three if converted to a FR character. RAW, Morninglord is just as applicable to worshippers of Pelor as it is to those of Lathander, because they're the same thing as far as the rules are concerned, even if both exist in the same game.


So you’re saying that, according to RAW, it should go both ways?

Meaning Lethander & Pelor should more or less be interchangeable for the sake of classes?

OK, first thing, if we're talking about RAW that table is for bringing Greyhawk characters into FR, it says nothing about making prestige classes available in each others' settings.

As far as I can see, it's more of guideline than a rule, considering that in some cases up to 4 FR deities are considered equivalent to a Greyhawk one, and that some of the ones listed are quite dramatically different from each other. It doesn't go into much details in the book about how the conversion table is meant to be used, but I'm pretty sure that the intent is that you choose one of those deities as your FR equivalent depending which aspect of your deity's portfolio you're most focussed on, it doesn't make much sense otherwise.

Having said that, in the specific case of Morninglord of Lathander, that's a sun-based class and Pelor is the god of the sun so there's a clear equivalence there. I don't think it's at all unreasonable personally to ask for it to be available for clerics of Pelor.

[Thoughtcandle]

OK, first thing, if we're talking about RAW that table is for bringing Greyhawk characters into FR, it says nothing about making prestige classes available in each others' settings.

As far as I can see, it's more of guideline than a rule, considering that in some cases up to 4 FR deities are considered equivalent to a Greyhawk one, and that some of the ones listed are quite dramatically different from each other. It doesn't go into much details in the book about how the conversion table is meant to be used, but I'm pretty sure that the intent is that you choose one of those deities as your FR equivalent depending which aspect of your deity's portfolio you're most focussed on, it doesn't make much sense otherwise.

Having said that, in the specific case of Morninglord of Lathander, that's a sun-based class and Pelor is the god of the sun so there's a clear equivalence there. I don't think it's at all unreasonable personally to ask for it to be available for clerics of Pelor.

I discussed it with my DM yesterday, and he rules against it.

I disagree with the ruling, as that’s my thought as well - they’re both sun gods and extremely similar, so it should work both ways - but gotta go with what the DM determines accurate.

No worries, plenty of alternative and awesome ways to go about building a cleric of Pelor.

[Anthrowhale]

Synthesizing nixed and suggested possibilities, maybe something like this?

Good Human Cloistered Cleric of Pelor {Spontaneous Healing, Divine Magician, Knowledge} 2/Paragnostic Apostle 5/Radiant Servant of Pelor 10/Spelldancer 1/Cloistered Cleric 1?
Feats:
Human. Extra Turning
1. Combat Casting
3. Dodge
6. Mobility
9. Endurance
12. Extend spell
15. Ocular Spell
18. Persistent Spell

For the Divine Magician ACF use:
1. True Strike
2. Spectral Hand
3. Nondetection
4. Ray Deflection
5. Duelward
6. Starmantle
7. Avasculate
8. Mystic Shield
9. Disjunction

For Paragnostic Apostle abilities, you pick up:
Penetrating insight: Spell Resistance+1/Dispel+1
See through the Veil: Necromancy DC+1, Turn level +2
Mind over Matter: +2 AC to armor bonus granting spells
Manifest Ethos: Half damage divine vs evil
Spatial Awareness: +10' move to move granting spells

You use Substitute Domain[Sun] to qualify for RSoP. One key question here is: can you use substitute domain on the healing domain? As far as I can tell, this is legal. If so (and you maintain spontaneity), you can cast domain spells for all of Pelor's domains {Charity, Community, Glory, Good, Healing, Nobility, Pride, Purification, Radiance, Strength, Sun} with a round delay by casting Substitute Domain.

You can persist almost any non-necromancy/evocation spell on your list, either via spelldance[persistent spell] or spelldance[ocular spell] followed by spelldance[persistent spell]. Furthermore, these can be extended so they only cost half the slots. And you've cherry-picked some great abjuration spells from the wizard list to make yourself immune to all weapons (presumably including natural weapons), all spells of level 6 or less (while retaining the benefits of such), and all ranged touch attacks. You can also stack for AC 55=10+5 deflection(Shield of Faith)+6 circumstance(Holy Star)+1 morale(Divine Protection)+5 Sacred(Shield of Warding)+3 Insight(True Prayer of the Chosen)+2 Dodge(Visions of the Future)+15 Armor (Greater Luminous Armor + Magic Vestment)+7 Shield(an actual shield + Magic Vestment)+1 Natural Armor (Greater Visage of the Deity) and more generally there is a persistable spell for just about all attack forms. Use various caster level boosting items (like the prayer bead of karma) to make it hard to dispel protections with anything short of Disjunction.

On the healing side, all conjuration(healing) spells are maximized and empowered and you can spontaneously cast from the healing domain. Furthermore, these can be dispensed at range via spectral touch.

The turning level before item enhancements is 20 and you have plentiful greater turning. This can be improved with items to undead army annihilation levels.

On the combat side, you qualify for the classic Sense Weakness+Surge of Fortune+Vorpal weapon trio. The vorpal weapon here could be either a sickle or a dagger.

[Thoughtcandle]

Synthesizing nixed and suggested possibilities, maybe something like this?

Good Human Cloistered Cleric of Pelor {Spontaneous Healing, Divine Magician, Knowledge} 2/Paragnostic Apostle 5/Radiant Servant of Pelor 10/Spelldancer 1/Cloistered Cleric 1?
Feats:
Human. Extra Turning
1. Combat Casting
3. Dodge
6. Mobility
9. Endurance
12. Extend spell
15. Ocular Spell
18. Persistent Spell

For the Divine Magician ACF use:
1. True Strike
2. Spectral Hand
3. Nondetection
4. Ray Deflection
5. Duelward
6. Starmantle
7. Avasculate
8. Mystic Shield
9. Disjunction

For Paragnostic Apostle abilities, you pick up:
Penetrating insight: Spell Resistance+1/Dispel+1
See through the Veil: Necromancy DC+1, Turn level +2
Mind over Matter: +2 AC to armor bonus granting spells
Manifest Ethos: Half damage divine vs evil
Spatial Awareness: +10' move to move granting spells

You use Substitute Domain[Sun] to qualify for RSoP. One key question here is: can you use substitute domain on the healing domain? As far as I can tell, this is legal. If so (and you maintain spontaneity), you can cast domain spells for all of Pelor's domains {Charity, Community, Glory, Good, Healing, Nobility, Pride, Purification, Radiance, Strength, Sun} with a round delay by casting Substitute Domain.

You can persist almost any non-necromancy/evocation spell on your list, either via spelldance[persistent spell] or spelldance[ocular spell] followed by spelldance[persistent spell]. Furthermore, these can be extended so they only cost half the slots. And you've cherry-picked some great abjuration spells from the wizard list to make yourself immune to all weapons (presumably including natural weapons), all spells of level 6 or less (while retaining the benefits of such), and all ranged touch attacks. You can also stack for AC 55=10+5 deflection(Shield of Faith)+6 circumstance(Holy Star)+1 morale(Divine Protection)+5 Sacred(Shield of Warding)+3 Insight(True Prayer of the Chosen)+2 Dodge(Visions of the Future)+15 Armor (Greater Luminous Armor + Magic Vestment)+7 Shield(an actual shield + Magic Vestment)+1 Natural Armor (Greater Visage of the Deity) and more generally there is a persistable spell for just about all attack forms. Use various caster level boosting items (like the prayer bead of karma) to make it hard to dispel protections with anything short of Disjunction.

On the healing side, all conjuration(healing) spells are maximized and empowered and you can spontaneously cast from the healing domain. Furthermore, these can be dispensed at range via spectral touch.

The turning level before item enhancements is 20 and you have plentiful greater turning. This can be improved with items to undead army annihilation levels.

On the combat side, you qualify for the classic Sense Weakness+Surge of Fortune+Vorpal weapon trio. The vorpal weapon here could be either a sickle or a dagger.

Some great suggestions here, definitely going to incorporate some of them into this build.

Curious, how would you incorporate radiant servant of pelor with fist of raziel? Or do you not think they mesh well together?

Other PrCs that look good for this progression are of course contemplative, divine oracle, and sacred exorcist.

Considering what you came up with here, would be interested to see what else you could come up with - Cleric is new to me so my grasp of how to play the class well is still developing.

[AvatarVecna]

So are you suggesting just run pure cleric?

I'm not necessarily suggesting that you go pure cleric, or pure healer. I agree with the general forum consensus that spending all your slots healing others is one of the less efficient and honestly less fun ways to use them. I just wanna make sure that it comes with the caveat that, while it's weak and inefficient, a full caster dedicating themselves to healing is still a major force to be reckoned with. Just because it's relatively bad doesn't mean it's actually bad.

[Anthrowhale]

Some great suggestions here, definitely going to incorporate some of them into this build.

Curious, how would you incorporate radiant servant of pelor with fist of raziel? Or do you not think they mesh well together?

Other PrCs that look good for this progression are of course contemplative, divine oracle, and sacred exorcist.

Considering what you came up with here, would be interested to see what else you could come up with - Cleric is new to me so my grasp of how to play the class well is still developing.

Some thoughts:

Fist of Raziel doesn't mesh well due to the lack of TU progression. Also, you can persist Divine Power, which gives you BAB+19 and Bastion of Good which is better than Magic Circle. I usually think of FoR as naturally complementing Divine Crusader rather than Cleric.
Contemplative and Divine Oracle also don't progress TU. They do grant a domain which is nice, but the Contemplative domain is accessible anyways via substitute domain. The oracle domain grants divination spell caster level +2 and provides access to Identify (since the knowledge domain already grants access to Legend Lore and Foresight). These are nice-to-haves, but perhaps not necessary. If you really want access to Identify trade it for Divine Magician Truestrike.
Sacred Exorcist advances TU, so it meshes. The class features are ok with consecrated presence being actively good if you know that you are heading into an undead heavy campaign with lots of vile damage. It's not super-necessary in general, since Consecrate is available as a level 2 spell.
When you go into epic, it's useful to have a prestige class with 10 levels, because advancing it in epic grants access to epic feats. There is no specified progression here, but since RSoP only advances TU levels, it should be as a cleric (1 epic feat/3 levels) or a slight chance of better.
In terms of use of a cleric, some spells to keep in mind are:

Guidance of the Avatar + Divine Insight = yes, you can pass the skill check.
Sense Weakness + Surge of Fortune + Vorpal = Off with their head.
Wall of Sand = no-save die for weak opponents in confined spaces and great crowd control otherwise.
Caster level enhancements (start with Prayer Bead of Karma + Ankh of Ascension) + Holy Word (or Word of Chaos, or Dictum, depending on alignment) = no save kill.
Persistent Divine Power + Divine Favor + Righteous Might + Righteous Wrath of the Faithful = the fighter wonders about life choices.
Gate a 50HD epic monster = game over.
Erupt = nuclear weapon.
Spread of Contentment = no save creatures can't fight you, even when you stab them in the eye.
Veil of Undeath + End to Strife = 20d6 retributive nonlethal damage per attack to others. However, this would require that you be true neutral.
Greater Plane Shift twice = go anywhere.
Super Resistance + Conviction + Recitation + Visions of the future = make any save
Eyes of the Oracle = act out of turn.
Persistent Consumptive Field + Persistent Greater Consumptive Field applied day after day = at least caster level x2. This is broken-good.
Mantle of the Icy Soul + Algid Enhancement + caster level = huge bonus to attack and deflection.
Energy Immunity all 5 flavors.
True Seeing defeats an entire school of magic.
Boreal Wind or Streamers are some heavy damage spells.
Mark of the Enlightened Soul + Persistent Darkfire + Lesser Rod of Maximize Spell + Manifest Ethos = a reliable high damage attack with iteratives. (Check with your DM that you have iteratives.)
Lesser rod of maximize spell + Shivering Touch + Spectral Hand/Ocular Spell = knockout anything vulnerable to dexterity damage.
Eyes of the Avoral + Vision of the Omniscient Eye = make spot checks.
Persistent Cloud of knives = minor free attack/round. Persistent Holy Star = significant free attack/round.
No Light + Ebon Eyes = you can see and they cannot.
Brambles + Duskwood special material = +10 to damage with any weapon.
Persistent Mass Lesser Vigor = the entire party automatically heals between encounters.

I realized a small error--you can either be a Lesser Aasimar and cheese a feat from the Spelldancer tax, or be a human and enter Paragnostic Apostle after level 5. There are many ways to cheese feats. Taking bloodline levels (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm) would give you two (Dodge + Mobility). Bloodlines are considered broken-good. There is a cleric 4 spell called Unfailing Endurance which grants the Endurance feat for day/level. There is Armor of Mobility from MIC which grants mobility.
You should check with your DM about spelldancer persistomancy. It's broken-good as well. DMM[Persistent Spell] is a step down, and avoiding any metamagic reducers is a step down from that as well.

[Thoughtcandle]

Some thoughts:

Fist of Raziel doesn't mesh well due to the lack of TU progression. Also, you can persist Divine Power, which gives you BAB+19 and Bastion of Good which is better than Magic Circle. I usually think of FoR as naturally complementing Divine Crusader rather than Cleric.
Contemplative and Divine Oracle also don't progress TU. They do grant a domain which is nice, but the Contemplative domain is accessible anyways via substitute domain. The oracle domain grants divination spell caster level +2 and provides access to Identify (since the knowledge domain already grants access to Legend Lore and Foresight). These are nice-to-haves, but perhaps not necessary. If you really want access to Identify trade it for Divine Magician Truestrike.
Sacred Exorcist advances TU, so it meshes. The class features are ok with consecrated presence being actively good if you know that you are heading into an undead heavy campaign with lots of vile damage. It's not super-necessary in general, since Consecrate is available as a level 2 spell.
When you go into epic, it's useful to have a prestige class with 10 levels, because advancing it in epic grants access to epic feats. There is no specified progression here, but since RSoP only advances TU levels, it should be as a cleric (1 epic feat/3 levels) or a slight chance of better.
In terms of use of a cleric, some spells to keep in mind are:

Guidance of the Avatar + Divine Insight = yes, you can pass the skill check.
Sense Weakness + Surge of Fortune + Vorpal = Off with their head.
Wall of Sand = no-save die for weak opponents in confined spaces and great crowd control otherwise.
Caster level enhancements (start with Prayer Bead of Karma + Ankh of Ascension) + Holy Word (or Word of Chaos, or Dictum, depending on alignment) = no save kill.
Persistent Divine Power + Divine Favor + Righteous Might + Righteous Wrath of the Faithful = the fighter wonders about life choices.
Gate a 50HD epic monster = game over.
Erupt = nuclear weapon.
Spread of Contentment = no save creatures can't fight you, even when you stab them in the eye.
Veil of Undeath + End to Strife = 20d6 retributive nonlethal damage per attack to others. However, this would require that you be true neutral.
Greater Plane Shift twice = go anywhere.
Super Resistance + Conviction + Recitation + Visions of the future = make any save
Eyes of the Oracle = act out of turn.
Persistent Consumptive Field + Persistent Greater Consumptive Field applied day after day = at least caster level x2. This is broken-good.
Mantle of the Icy Soul + Algid Enhancement + caster level = huge bonus to attack and deflection.
Energy Immunity all 5 flavors.
True Seeing defeats an entire school of magic.
Boreal Wind or Streamers are some heavy damage spells.
Mark of the Enlightened Soul + Persistent Darkfire + Lesser Rod of Maximize Spell + Manifest Ethos = a reliable high damage attack with iteratives. (Check with your DM that you have iteratives.)
Lesser rod of maximize spell + Shivering Touch + Spectral Hand/Ocular Spell = knockout anything vulnerable to dexterity damage.
Eyes of the Avoral + Vision of the Omniscient Eye = make spot checks.
Persistent Cloud of knives = minor free attack/round. Persistent Holy Star = significant free attack/round.
No Light + Ebon Eyes = you can see and they cannot.
Brambles + Duskwood special material = +10 to damage with any weapon.
Persistent Mass Lesser Vigor = the entire party automatically heals between encounters.

I realized a small error--you can either be a Lesser Aasimar and cheese a feat from the Spelldancer tax, or be a human and enter Paragnostic Apostle after level 5. There are many ways to cheese feats. Taking bloodline levels (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm) would give you two (Dodge + Mobility). Bloodlines are considered broken-good. There is a cleric 4 spell called Unfailing Endurance which grants the Endurance feat for day/level. There is Armor of Mobility from MIC which grants mobility.
You should check with your DM about spelldancer persistomancy. It's broken-good as well. DMM[Persistent Spell] is a step down, and avoiding any metamagic reducers is a step down from that as well.


Your insights are great, do you mind if I DM you?

[Troacctid]

I really dislike spelldancer. You're lighting all those feats on fire when you could just be an illumian and get almost the same thing for almost no feats at all. (Maybe Extra Turning.)

Spectral hand is also terrible. The short duration makes it useless. If you want to heal from a distance, take Improved Power (Healing). If I were going divine magician, my picks would be more like chill touch/identify/parching touch, command undead, disobedience/explosive runes/spellcaster's bane/reverse arrows, friendly fire, channeled lifetheft/skin of the steel dragon, greater anticipate teleportation, avasculate/spell turning/pulse of hate, mind blank, and disjunction.

[Thoughtcandle]

I really dislike spelldancer. You're lighting all those feats on fire when you could just be an illumian and get almost the same thing for almost no feats at all. (Maybe Extra Turning.)

Spectral hand is also terrible. The short duration makes it useless. If you want to heal from a distance, take Improved Power (Healing). If I were going divine magician, my picks would be more like chill touch/identify/parching touch, command undead, disobedience/explosive runes/spellcaster's bane/reverse arrows, friendly fire, channeled lifetheft/skin of the steel dragon, greater anticipate teleportation, avasculate/spell turning/pulse of hate, mind blank, and disjunction.

Also in regards to progressing turn undead (in the post above) - I think there are plenty of viable options outside of class features that provide more flexibility with how you incorporate PrC’s and what ones you incorporate.

[No1Talks]

If you expect this to be a game with plenty of undead and if all 3.5 WoTC publications are on the table, please consider the Exalted Turning feat from BoED.

In addition to the usual Turning process, this feat adds 3d6 HP damage to any creature turned. Very handy when your high-level turn nails multiple undead in one pop.

[Anthrowhale]

Your insights are great, do you mind if I DM you?
Sure.

I really dislike spelldancer. You're lighting all those feats on fire when you could just be an illumian and get almost the same thing for almost no feats at all. (Maybe Extra Turning.)
This is a case where quantity has a quality of it's own. Naenhoon Illumian grants 4 persisted spells for the cost of 2-3 feats. Spelldancer grants (say) 40 persisted spells for the cost of 6-7 feats. The difference is quite far from negligible.


Spectral hand is also terrible. The short duration makes it useless.

In my view, it's problematic but perhaps not totally useless. One level of Hierophant for divine reach is also a possibility, although it costs a level of TU.


If you want to heal from a distance, take Improved Power (Healing).

What's that?


chill touch/identify/parching touch

Identify seems reasonable. I have difficulty interpreting chill/parching touch. The damage from a single touch is negligible at high levels. The target line:
Living creature or creatures touched (up to one/level) is hard to read. Is that one touch/level or one touched creature/level? My best guess is the latter, so a single creature can be touched at most once. If you happen to have 19 creatures in reach, the total damage is quite impressive for a first level spell, but since it's spread out it seems hard to justify the opportunity-cost as a combat action.

command undead
This is good, but I was assuming it didn't fit the roleplay.

disobedience/explosive runes/spellcaster's bane
These are good choices also.

reverse arrows
I don't see the attraction? Any foe worth worrying about has magical weapons?

friendly fire
The noninstantaneous version of friendly fire is a bit hard to understand. You deflect ranged attacks (not just ranged touch attacks as per ray deflection) toward "another target within 30'". What happens if you move more than 30' away from the designated target? What if the designated other target ceases to exist over the duration of the spell?

channeled lifetheft/skin of the steel dragon
Channeled Lifetheft seems reasonable as a no-save exhaustion effect. It's less specialized than Duelward, but Duelward is pretty nice when you have spell combat.
What's the point of SotSD when you have native access to Spell Resistance (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spellResistance.htm)?


greater anticipate teleportation
This is a great spell, although a bit tricky to use since often the party teleports more than the monsters. Starmantle is a bit more party-admissible and the incremental value of Anticipate Teleportation (at 3rd level) may not be worth 3 levels.


avasculate/spell turning/pulse of hate

I don't see the attraction of Pulse of Hate, and it seems like a hard sell in the church of Pelor. Spell Turning is a good spell which is a little bit tricky to use. If you are the only spellcaster in the party casting spells on yourself, maybe that's fine.


mind blank[/I]and disjunction.
Both are great spells.

[Thoughtcandle]

Sure.

This is a case where quantity has a quality of it's own. Naenhoon Illumian grants 4 persisted spells for the cost of 2-3 feats. Spelldancer grants (say) 40 persisted spells for the cost of 6-7 feats. The difference is quite far from negligible.

In my view, it's problematic but perhaps not totally useless. One level of Hierophant for divine reach is also a possibility, although it costs a level of TU.

What's that?

Identify seems reasonable. I have difficulty interpreting chill/parching touch. The damage from a single touch is negligible at high levels. The target line: is hard to read. Is that one touch/level or one touched creature/level? My best guess is the latter, so a single creature can be touched at most once. If you happen to have 19 creatures in reach, the total damage is quite impressive for a first level spell, but since it's spread out it seems hard to justify the opportunity-cost as a combat action.

This is good, but I was assuming it didn't fit the roleplay.

These are good choices also.

I don't see the attraction? Any foe worth worrying about has magical weapons?

The noninstantaneous version of friendly fire is a bit hard to understand. You deflect ranged attacks (not just ranged touch attacks as per ray deflection) toward "another target within 30'". What happens if you move more than 30' away from the designated target? What if the designated other target ceases to exist over the duration of the spell?

Channeled Lifetheft seems reasonable as a no-save exhaustion effect. It's less specialized than Duelward, but Duelward is pretty nice when you have spell combat.
What's the point of SotSD when you have native access to Spell Resistance (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spellResistance.htm)?

This is a great spell, although a bit tricky to use since often the party teleports more than the monsters. Starmantle is a bit more party-admissible and the incremental value of Anticipate Teleportation (at 3rd level) may not be worth 3 levels.

I don't see the attraction of Pulse of Hate, and it seems like a hard sell in the church of Pelor. Spell Turning is a good spell which is a little bit tricky to use. If you are the only spellcaster in the party casting spells on yourself, maybe that's fine.

Both are great spells.

Do your perceptions change if you advance turn undead externally? In regards to how you play into other PRC’s?

The intention being to optimize turn undead for DMM.

[Anthrowhale]

Do your perceptions change if you advance turn undead externally? In regards to how you play into other PRC’s?

The intention being to optimize turn undead for DMM.

TU for DMM implies optimizing the number of DMMs rather than the TU level, so it looks quite different. To increase the number of TUs, take the Destroy Undead ACF at cleric level 1 and Sacred Exorcist 1 to get 2 turning pools which can then be enhanced with Extra Turning and items. To decrease the MM cost, you can sometimes use Practical Metamagic (on a spontaneous cleric), but more generally can benefit from taking Assume Supernatural Ability + Polymorph[Tome Dragon] or Shapechange[Tome Dragon]. The choice of metamagic matters here in how you trade off the strategies. For Persistent spell, increasing TUs is more important while for Quicken Spell mitigation is more dominant by level 19. Metamagic rods of extend spell are effective doublers for persistent spell.

If the intention is DMM persist (is it?), then enhancing DMM to the point where it competes with Spelldancer 1 typically requires at least a similar investment. DMM[persist] makes more sense for a persistent spell dabbler.

Since 2/19 levels are specified for DMM, the space of prestige classes to consider is much broader.

[Thoughtcandle]

TU for DMM implies optimizing the number of DMMs rather than the TU level, so it looks quite different. To increase the number of TUs, take the Destroy Undead ACF at cleric level 1 and Sacred Exorcist 1 to get 2 turning pools which can then be enhanced with Extra Turning and items. To decrease the MM cost, you can sometimes use Practical Metamagic (on a spontaneous cleric), but more generally can benefit from taking Assume Supernatural Ability + Polymorph[Tome Dragon] or Shapechange[Tome Dragon]. The choice of metamagic matters here in how you trade off the strategies. For Persistent spell, increasing TUs is more important while for Quicken Spell mitigation is more dominant by level 19. Metamagic rods of extend spell are effective doublers for persistent spell.

If the intention is DMM persist (is it?), then enhancing DMM to the point where it competes with Spelldancer 1 typically requires at least a similar investment. DMM[persist] makes more sense for a persistent spell dabbler.

Since 2/19 levels are specified for DMM, the space of prestige classes to consider is much broader.

Haven’t fully decided to go quicken or persist.

Like I said in a previous post, running cleric is still new to me so I still have quite a bit to understand when it comes to how it works mechanically and what’s possible within the class (I know the answer is A LOT is possible, but I digress)

[Anthrowhale]

Like I said in a previous post, running cleric is still new to me so I still have quite a bit to understand when it comes to how it works mechanically and what’s possible within the class (I know the answer is A LOT is possible, but I digress)

What do you want to do? You started with RSoP, and the proposals are of an RSoP^2 variety. There are many alternatives. A baseline PHB-only cleric is quite capable. On the high end power-wise, you have Hathran, Initiate of Mystra, DMM[persist], or Spelldancer[persist]. On the gish side, DMM[quicken] is fantastic, or alternatively, you the Arcane Disciple cleric variant is amazing. Via various design choices, you can make a fighter, a paladin, a bard, or a rogue jealous.

The right choice here depends on your table: what's the optimization level? And what roles synergize vs. usurp your party?

[Thoughtcandle]

What do you want to do? You started with RSoP, and the proposals are of an RSoP^2 variety. There are many alternatives. A baseline PHB-only cleric is quite capable. On the high end power-wise, you have Hathran, Initiate of Mystra, DMM[persist], or Spelldancer[persist]. On the gish side, DMM[quicken] is fantastic, or alternatively, you the Arcane Disciple cleric variant is amazing. Via various design choices, you can make a fighter, a paladin, a bard, or a rogue jealous.

The right choice here depends on your table: what's the optimization level? And what roles synergize vs. usurp your party?

I’ll shout you a DM