help me build a great Tier 2 Twilight Cleric

[da newt]

How can I optimize a Twilight Cleric for a lvl 8 to 12 campaign? All books are in play. The only constraint is no heavy armor (DEX not ST).

Is Custom Origin better than 1/2 Elf?

What Feats / ASIs?

Which spells other than healing, Bless, SW & SG?

And most importantly - WHY?



I'm leaning toward CO + Fey Touched for 18 WIZ to start (Tasha's Hideous Laughter or Dissonant Whispers), RES CON and +2 WIZ. Are there better options?

[ZeddRahl]

With 1/2 elf you get an extra skill (2 vs 1), advantage on saves vs being charmed, can’t be put to sleep, and 2 +1s to stats by losing a feat. Though neither of those +1s can be where you put your +2 (wis). If considering it as a feat, it would be a good one but increasing your main stat is also important. I think either option works well.

I just started a twilight cleric at level 8, I took resilient con and skill expert as my feats. For my concept, I wanted an extra proficiency additionally expertise in perception with a 20 wisdom is pretty cool. But fey touched is probably better mechanically. You need something to improve constitution saving throws, so resilient con is a great option.

It looks like you’re maxing wisdom and not improving dex or wis, so I’d use the blessed strikes optional class feature to concentrate on cantrips instead of weapons.

As for spells.
Command is great for controlling/burning actions of an enemy.
Healing word is great for quickly bringing a PC back up.
Lesser restoration by getting rid of the poisoned or another condition can be clutch.
Enhance ability can help you or a fellow party member in non-combat situations especially: sneak, convince an NPC of something, etc.
Detect magic is useful especially cast as a ritual for exploration: looking through a house, a horde, etc.
Revivify is important to have if you have the diamonds
I tend to cast guardian of faith before going to sleep if I have the spell slot, especially if not sleeping in a tiny hut.

[da newt]

I'm leaning towards H-Elf (w/ floating ASIs), Res Con and +2 Wiz so at level 8:
St 10
DX 14
CO 16
IN 13
WI 18
CH 9

Then dipping WIZ for just one level for a spell book, 3 cantrips, 6 known spells (shield and AE and rituals), and arcane recovery. This will delay my cleric spells known progression, but add a ton of utility / survivability.

[Eldariel]

Any idea on the other party members and what kind of a role you want to fill? Anyways, quickly Twilight domain:
- You have quite possibly the best Channel Divinity in the game. Stupid amount of replenishing temporary HP or removing a highly debilitating status. And it's not even Concentration. By this alone you are an aegis for your allies and the radius is even big enough to avoid sitting in fireball formation. 2xSR that - doesn't take any effort, you're just awesome.
- You'll definitely want Blessed Strikes. While Psychic Divine Strike is strong, you don't want to be attacking in the first place. It's just silly to. Instead just cast spells, cantrips or otherwise, especially in tier 3. Most importantly, Blessed Strikes works on OAs and OA spells unlike Divine Strike.
- You definitely want a bonus feat on this level. CO and Vuman are both solid. Res: Con lets you get 16 Con and then you can have 16 Dex and 16 Wis. I'd go with Res: Con and War Caster and then +2 Wis if you want to be in the front.
- For spells, your Concentration will be taken by Spirit Guardians vast majority of the time. So pick spells for when SG isn't that useful (e.g. when enemy is kiting and hard to reach) and non-Concentration spells.

* Sanctuary is a kinda nice spell once you have SG active; essentially make an ally incredibly difficult to attack. Level 1 and non-Concentration, uses up your Bonus Action so you can even Dodge the same round.
* Death Ward is probably worth having. Another solid non-Concentration spell and one that's situationally extremely useful.
* It might be worth it to have one damage spell like Guiding Bolt or Inflict Wounds on this level if you ever need to hit someone hard. Not very useful but fits into your action economy and there are times when you can save everyone a lot of pain by just hitting hard. Of course that means upcasting here; if it weren't for Clerics complete lack of decent damage spells, this of course wouldn't even come into consideration.
* Silence is a solid anticaster spell at times. Also a good ritual. Worth having around.
* Always pack Enhance Ability. It makes you a swiss army knife out of combat and even in combat, casting it on Str for a couple of grapple/shove-capable characters can occasionally be very worth it (note the upcast potential).
* Always pack Dispel Magic. When you need it, you really need it and it's not even Concentration.
* Stone Shape is a solid non-Concentration battlefield control spell for creating cover or traps or whatever.
* Warding Bond is another nice non-Concentration buff to throw around especially with how you split your temp HP and thus splitting damage is superconvenient (though note how it stacks poorly if Warded ally already has resistance so don't go throwing it on Barbarians).
* If there's no Wizard, stuff like Detect Magic and Augury is nice to have for ritual casting and downtime utility. Divination is also just a superb spell for information gathering as are the various Locate X-spells so pack some variation of those (vary based on what you might need each day).


Once you get there, Summon Celestial is a good level 5-6 spells for when you need to engage at range.

[shipiaozi]

Cleric is the weakest full caster in 5e, with worst spell list and no unique ability. Divine soul could do everything better while capable of more roles, cast more powerful spells and have extra unique abilities. The only decent Cleric build beyond tier 1 is Mark of Handling Cleric, cast conjure animals as the only concentration spell, played like a Druid with no conjure Woodland Beings, better AC and better class ability.


1. Custom Origin/V human is better than 1/2 Elf because feat worth more than some minor useless traits.
2. War Caster, Lucky and Alert are all great, remember Cleric should never choose WIS+2 because WIS only provide +1 attack roll for very limit spells, compare with STR/DEX+2 provide +1 attack roll and +1 damage roll for almost all actions of a non-caster.
3.
lv1- Command, Healing Word, (Bless)
lv2- Aid, SW, Prayer of Healing
lv3- Conjure Animals, Dispel Magic, Revivify
lv4- Death Ward, Divination
lv5- Greater Restoration
lv6- Heal, Heroes' Feast

[stoutstien]

Cleric is the weakest full caster in 5e, with worst spell list and no unique ability. Divine soul could do everything better while capable of more roles, cast more powerful spells and have extra unique abilities. The only decent Cleric build beyond tier 1 is Mark of Handling Cleric, cast conjure animals as the only concentration spell, played like a Druid with no conjure Woodland Beings, better AC and better class ability.


1. Custom Origin/V human is better than 1/2 Elf because feat worth more than some minor useless traits.
2. War Caster, Lucky and Alert are all great, remember Cleric should never choose WIS+2 because WIS only provide +1 attack roll for very limit spells, compare with STR/DEX+2 provide +1 attack roll and +1 damage roll for almost all actions of a non-caster.
3.
lv1- Command, Healing Word, (Bless)
lv2- Aid, SW, Prayer of Healing
lv3- Conjure Animals, Dispel Magic, Revivify
lv4- Death Ward, Divination
lv5- Greater Restoration
lv6- Heal, Heroes' Feast

The only category that DS really out preforms a cleric is in high tier summoning but even then the cleric isn't exactly a slouch.

I'm ready curious how you came to the conclusion that clerics are the weakest full caster past saying they have no unique features which is just not true. They have better HD, armor/shield prof, prepared casting, ritual casting, the widest spell capacity (best mitigation, top tier damage, utility, and information gathering), subclass right at level 1, and the list goes on.

DS are very strong specialist but they just don't have the spells know to fill more than 2-maybe 3 roles.

[shipiaozi]

The only category that DS really out preforms a cleric is in high tier summoning but even then the cleric isn't exactly a slouch.

I'm ready curious how you came to the conclusion that clerics are the weakest full caster past saying they have no unique features which is just not true. They have better HD, armor/shield prof, prepared casting, ritual casting, the widest spell capacity (best mitigation, top tier damage, utility, and information gathering), subclass right at level 1, and the list goes on.

DS are very strong specialist but they just don't have the spells know to fill more than 2-maybe 3 roles.

If wizard/sorcerer build have no armor/shield prof then the balance would be much better, but wizard/sorcerer could easily get armor/shield prof by multiclass or racial trait + feat. With shield/absorb element, wizard/sorcerer are best tank class, while cleric are not so good at absorb damage.

In combat, cleric have weakest at-will attack on par with druid, no extra attack or blade cantrip. They are also WIS-based and have difficulty to use Eldritch Blast. Their spells are weak and narrow with no class ability to buff them, oh, there is one called Destructive Wrath, for wizard/sorcerer multiclass. One of the best cleric spell SG is just a weaker fireball with concentration, that's said enough about cleric's spell list. In tier3 and beyond, Cleric have no Simulacrum or Wish.

Divine Soul could get best cleric spells and use them better than Cleric, such as extended Aura of Vitality or Twinned Heal, deal damage with Quicken Blade Cantrip while cleric doing nothing.

[Lunatism]

If
Divine Soul could get best cleric spells and use them better than Cleric, such as extended Aura of Vitality or Twinned Heal, deal damage with Quicken Blade Cantrip while cleric doing nothing.

Druid and cleric beats Soccerer in spell versitility as they don't have known spell limitations.

On the other hand the number of soccerer known spell is greatly limited.

[shipiaozi]

Druid and cleric beats Soccerer in spell versitility as they don't have known spell limitations.

On the other hand the number of soccerer known spell is greatly limited.

As a general rule, number of spell prepared isn't important, what's the value of 10th, 15th spell? Very few, probably even 20 extra spell prepared don't worth a feat, all ritual spells of wizard worth less than 1 feat and most value are in familiar. "Change spell between long rest" is a very minor trait almost could be ignored. A caster only need to know best spell, for example druid only need about 7 spells even in lv17(Absorb, Healing, 2 Conjure, Heal, AOE, Foresight), all others are minor benefits that overused too often.

Divine soul is by far the most versatile class in 5e, while class like wizard in never versatile.

[Lunatism]

As a general rule, number of spell prepared isn't important, what's the value of 10th, 15th spell? Very few, probably even 20 extra spell prepared don't worth a feat, all ritual spells of wizard worth less than 1 feat and most value are in familiar. "Change spell between long rest" is a very minor trait almost could be ignored. A caster only need to know best spell, for example druid only need about 7 spells even in lv17(Absorb, Healing, 2 Conjure, Heal, AOE, Foresight), all others are minor benefits that overused too often.

Divine soul is by far the most versatile class in 5e, while class like wizard in never versatile.

If what you do is combat only, then 15 spells known may be enough but you are useless out-combat.

Let's return to what OP concern:
Banishment is always a solid control spell for cleric.
Silence can be good against spellcasters, if your teammates can pin them in the sphere.

[Captain Panda]

A caster only need to know best spell, for example druid only need about 7 spells even in lv17(Absorb, Healing, 2 Conjure, Heal, AOE, Foresight),

Shapechange and erupting earth should absolutely be on that list.

[Chronic]

Saying a full caster only need seven spells is absurd. The main advantage of being a full caster (and a spell caster in general) is the diversity of possibilities spells give a player.

[kingcheesepants]

If you have a base Hallow is super good to cast on said base. I have a group with an airship and powerful demonic/undead enemies, that hallow on their ship has saved their skins more than once. Insect plague is really good against groups of enemies it does a decent amount of damage, blocks sight and is difficult terrain if there's a group of archers or something you can quickly neutralize them. Scrying is hit or miss depending on the circumstances but can be invaluable. Things like magic circle or protection from good and evil are another one that could be good or bad depending on what your up against. But if you're fighting fiends, fey, undead, elementals (which in tier 2 you probably are) then they're useful to have.

[ByzantiumBhuka]

One particularly interesting thing about the Twilight domain is that it doesn't depend on Wis at all except for the number of creatures you share your darkvision with. When creating your cleric, you could get away with 14 or 16 Wis; don't invest too much in the score.

The more important ability for you would be Dexterity. With a light crossbow and Divine Strike, you could do some serious at-will damage. The Twilight Aura makes you a potent passive buffer while doing that, and if enemies get into melee range? You can fly in your aura. You're a flying psychic sniper.

Add on the mastery of auras that you get from Spirit Guardians and Aura of Vitality in addition to the Twilight aura, and you get a character quite capable in terms of kiting for both help and hurt. And you can attack quite easily at range. And you're a full caster (see the spell choices of Eldariel). All in all, a pretty good deal.

[stoutstien]

If wizard/sorcerer build have no armor/shield prof then the balance would be much better, but wizard/sorcerer could easily get armor/shield prof by multiclass or racial trait + feat. With shield/absorb element, wizard/sorcerer are best tank class, while cleric are not so good at absorb damage.

In combat, cleric have weakest at-will attack on par with druid, no extra attack or blade cantrip. They are also WIS-based and have difficulty to use Eldritch Blast. Their spells are weak and narrow with no class ability to buff them, oh, there is one called Destructive Wrath, for wizard/sorcerer multiclass. One of the best cleric spell SG is just a weaker fireball with concentration, that's said enough about cleric's spell list. In tier3 and beyond, Cleric have no Simulacrum or Wish.

Divine Soul could get best cleric spells and use them better than Cleric, such as extended Aura of Vitality or Twinned Heal, deal damage with Quicken Blade Cantrip while cleric doing nothing.
So your base of reasoning is that clerics are weak because other casters can take an opportunity cost to pick up some of their base benefits with optional rules but for some reason the cleric isn't capable of the same thing?

Being wis based is not a handicap and If you honestly think SG is just a weaker fireball I think we are playing entirely different games.

[Chronic]

One particularly interesting thing about the Twilight domain is that it doesn't depend on Wis at all except for the number of creatures you share your darkvision with. When creating your cleric, you could get away with 14 or 16 Wis; don't invest too much in the score.

The more important ability for you would be Dexterity. With a light crossbow and Divine Strike, you could do some serious at-will damage. The Twilight Aura makes you a potent passive buffer while doing that, and if enemies get into melee range? You can fly in your aura. You're a flying psychic sniper.

Add on the mastery of auras that you get from Spirit Guardians and Aura of Vitality in addition to the Twilight aura, and you get a character quite capable in terms of kiting for both help and hurt. And you can attack quite easily at range. And you're a full caster (see the spell choices of Eldariel). All in all, a pretty good deal.

Just because their channel divinity doesn't scale with wisdom doesn't mean they should not max it. They still are basic cleric, and many of their spells scale with wisdom, so unless you have something specific you want to invest in, which will compensate the fact you will be a lesser spell caster, max wisdom is the way to go, and as soon as possible, I wouldn't take more than one feat before maxing my wis with ASI. Crossbow are fun, but your cantrip will remain pretty much competitive unless you take at least two feats. Clerics are bad martials and rely on spells such as spirit guardians and spiritual weapon, the later taking your bonus action. I'm not saying that your idea is bad, just that you have to invest heavily on it to be worth in the long run.

[Valmark]

Being wis based is not a handicap and If you honestly think SG is just a weaker fireball I think we are playing entirely different games.

The fact that they said that the twilight cleric doesn't have anything unique when they have one of the best and most unique abilities in the game (currently) didn't clue you in already? :P

Talking about the recharging temporary hp (which are also an hefty amount to the point that you could just not care of some damage rolls).

[stoutstien]

The fact that they said that the twilight cleric doesn't have anything unique when they have one of the best and most unique abilities in the game (currently) didn't clue you in already? :P

Talking about the recharging temporary hp (which are also an hefty amount to the point that you could just not care of some damage rolls).

IMO the charm/frightened cancel combined with dim light (so many good combos here from sulker to SB) is stronger than the THP spam which is good but honestly at this point THP buffers are a dime a dozen.

My view might be unique due my DM style with a larger emphasis on conditions in general rather than straight hp attrition.

[Chronic]

It's also a hard counter against darkness strategy, the channel divinity should by raw bypass any form of darkness, magical or not.

[stoutstien]

It's also a hard counter against darkness strategy, the channel divinity should by raw bypass any form of darkness, magical or not.

I'm on the fence on this ruling. IMO both the CD and the darkness spell are equally specific and dimlight overriding darkness doesn't make in game sense to me. The light cleric CD also is a ripple. It also makes 'light' and calls out how it specifically interacts with magical darkness. (It also is another case of when the rules call something sunlight but doesn't give it the typical advantage that sunlight has on some NPCs..just why..).

I'm hip ruling is currently the area of both are reduced by 1/2 while they overlap.

Probably should be using fog cloud anyways unless environment prevents it.

[da newt]

Ship's input is always interesting. It seems he has a very narrow analytical view of how to best optimize PCs that focuses on DPR almost exclusively and always choosing the max NOVA option every round of every combat, combat DPR is the only consideration - as if it was a competition and every PC was in it for themselves. I think he approaches the game with a different paradigm than most on this board, and offers a unique perspective.

[stoutstien]

Ship's input is always interesting. It seems he has a very narrow analytical view of how to best optimize PCs that focuses on DPR almost exclusively and always choosing the max NOVA option every round of every combat, combat DPR is the only consideration - as if it was a competition and every PC was in it for themselves. I think he approaches the game with a different paradigm than most on this board, and offers a unique perspective.

Even then a DS can only realistically grab a small portion of the best cleric spell while also maintaining the best sorcerer options regardless of level. Hence why they are amazing specialist but at the cost of flexibility and adaptability.

[shipiaozi]

So your base of reasoning is that clerics are weak because other casters can take an opportunity cost to pick up some of their base benefits with optional rules but for some reason the cleric isn't capable of the same thing?

Being wis based is not a handicap and If you honestly think SG is just a weaker fireball I think we are playing entirely different games.

1. Wizard/Sorcerer could get armor with very little cost, medium or heavy armor should be their default choice, and they have powerful defense spell.
2. Cleric have worst at-will attack among casters.
3. Cleric have no powerful or unique class abilities except one that Cleric can't use. What the "unique ability of Twilight Domain" someone here talk about? Twilight Sanctuary is great because it gives you extra feat inspiring leader, that's all.
4. Cleric have worst spell list, no spell to use reaction, worst at summon, no great spell at all, no good AOE or control, no Simulacrum for tier3-4 play, worst lv9 spell list. Bless and healing are only two decent aspects but that's all.
5. Does anyone really think SG is a great spell? The spell need to wait 2.5 rounds to deal as much damage as fireball, seriously... AOEs are used in the first or second turn of the combat, not the last turn. The spell usually deal less damage than fireball, and waste concentration.

[stoutstien]

1. Wizard/Sorcerer could get armor with very little cost, medium or heavy armor should be their default choice, and they have powerful defense spell.
2. Cleric have worst at-will attack among casters.
3. Cleric have no powerful or unique class abilities except one that Cleric can't use. What the "unique ability of Twilight Domain" someone here talk about? Twilight Sanctuary is great because it gives you extra feat inspiring leader, that's all.
4. Cleric have worst spell list, no spell to use reaction, worst at summon, no great spell at all, no good AOE or control, no Simulacrum for tier3-4 play, worst lv9 spell list. Bless and healing are only two decent aspects but that's all.
5. Does anyone really think SG is a great spell? The spell need to wait 2.5 rounds to deal as much damage as fireball, seriously... AOEs are used in the first or second turn of the combat, not the last turn. The spell usually deal less damage than fireball, and waste concentration.

1. A level dip the other way for cleric nets the same defensive spells at a similar opportunity cost. Wash
2. At will damage is used so rarely who cares? Even then the cleric has the same at will damage as 80% of the other full casters with zero investment. Once again opportunity cost is key
3. Define powerful. Each cleric domain has some pretty powerful and unique options up to and including. Just because it's not damage doesn't make it weak.
4. Objectively false. They may not have the best reaction spells but those are cheap to obtain and has the most potent bonus action damage spell that does not require concentration. They are solidly middle of the road at summoning with the added benefit of being a prepared caster so they don't even have to decide to be good at it or not past taking a nap. Clerics might feel boring from 10 + but they are hardly weak even on the fill caster scale.
5. For spell slot economy,CC, avoiding the third worse damage type, party friendly, and the ability to precast on top of enough damage to catch up to the almighty fire ball in a single encounter? You bet people think it's good. On the AOE timing comment, Really? Does your DM just place NPCs on neat formations for you to blast and nevers have the change formations or strategies? Usually a party has to activate force NPCs into the position for the big blasts to target enough to be worth while. See SG.

[Valmark]

Ship's input is always interesting. It seems he has a very narrow analytical view of how to best optimize PCs that focuses on DPR almost exclusively and always choosing the max NOVA option every round of every combat, combat DPR is the only consideration - as if it was a competition and every PC was in it for themselves. I think he approaches the game with a different paradigm than most on this board, and offers a unique perspective.

This would be true if it wasn't that when they posted a wizard 'guide' it... Wasn't optimized for damage. It was basically a wizard build that could stay in melee (AC-wise). Note that I literally mean that- they weren't a tank, nor particularly damaging when compared to base wizards.



3. Cleric have no powerful or unique class abilities except one that Cleric can't use. What the "unique ability of Twilight Domain" someone here talk about? Twilight Sanctuary is great because it gives you extra feat inspiring leader, that's all.
5. Does anyone really think SG is a great spell? The spell need to wait 2.5 rounds to deal as much damage as fireball, seriously... AOEs are used in the first or second turn of the combat, not the last turn. The spell usually deal less damage than fireball, and waste concentration.

3) Saying that clerics have a unique ability that clerics can't use seems a bit illogical.
Twilight Sanctuary is far better then Inspiring Leader. It continuely regenerates the lost THP AND also heals conditions AND can be used more times each rest.
5) You're comparing a Concentration spell that debuffs and avoids allies with an instantaneous spell that only deals damage and doesn't avoid allies. That alone should tell you that SG shouldn't deal nowhere the damage of a Fireball- and that ignoring the fact that SG scales better then Fireball.

[Chronic]

Twilight Channel ability combined with the circle of power spell is probably the most powerful defensive option any class or subclass possess. And this is on top of what most people consider an excellent class chassis.
I love sorcerer to death, and divine soul is a good subclass, with a good mix of offense and defense and the nice tricks of "double concentration" but as pure support? Well they are wasted.

[stoutstien]

Twilight Channel ability combined with the circle of power spell is probably the most powerful defensive option any class or subclass possess. And this is on top of what most people consider an excellent class chassis.
I love sorcerer to death, and divine soul is a good subclass, with a good mix of offense and defense and the nice tricks of "double concentration" but as pure support? Well they are wasted.

Ok. Before I go hunting for my books did they really give a cleric CoP?!

Yep there it is. Good grief. that was uncalled for lol.

[Eldariel]

Ok. Before I go hunting for my books did they really give a cleric CoP?!

Yep there it is. Good grief. that was uncalled for lol.

Well, I guess they wanted to give Spirit Guardians some competition.

[shipiaozi]

This would be true if it wasn't that when they posted a wizard 'guide' it... Wasn't optimized for damage. It was basically a wizard build that could stay in melee (AC-wise). Note that I literally mean that- they weren't a tank, nor particularly damaging when compared to base wizards.



3) Saying that clerics have a unique ability that clerics can't use seems a bit illogical.
Twilight Sanctuary is far better then Inspiring Leader. It continuely regenerates the lost THP AND also heals conditions AND can be used more times each rest.
5) You're comparing a Concentration spell that debuffs and avoids allies with an instantaneous spell that only deals damage and doesn't avoid allies. That alone should tell you that SG shouldn't deal nowhere the damage of a Fireball- and that ignoring the fact that SG scales better then Fireball.


1. Wizard/Sorcerer are best tank in 5e and almost must be melee(try stay close to enemy to increase DPS, protect other team member). Although melee wizard/sorcerer deal more damage than incorrect, unarmored build, that's not their main advantage.

2. Channel Divinity: Destructive Wrath is really powerful ability... for wizard/sorcerer multiclass build, again Cleric have no suitable spell.

3. Difference between Inspiring Leader and Twilight Sanctuary are small, if you want "continuely regenerates the lost THP" then you would need to cast it in combat or just before combat.

4. SG require concentration, divide damage in more than one rounds, have much worse range and radius, unfriendly to allies(Fireball could avoid allies, but SG is very hostile to summoned creatures because they may not be summoned when SG is casted). The debuff effect is very weak, 10ft movement reduce is only a bonus at best. Yeah SG scale better, but lv4 SG is still much worse than fireball, on higher levels fireball is no longer a good spell and SG need to compete with better damage spells.

5. If you disagree cleric is worst full caster in 5e, which class is among wizard/sorcerer/warlock/druid/bard?

[x3n0n]

3. Difference between Inspiring Leader and Twilight Sanctuary are small, if you want "continuely regenerates the lost THP" then you would need to cast it in combat or just before combat.



I had assumed this anyway? Use it in the first round of first significant combat encounter after a rest, and it's likely to offset a lot of damage, *plus* leave everybody full of THP going into the next encounter.

[Valmark]

2. Channel Divinity: Destructive Wrath is really powerful ability... for wizard/sorcerer multiclass build, again Cleric have no suitable spell.

3. Difference between Inspiring Leader and Twilight Sanctuary are small, if you want "continuely regenerates the lost THP" then you would need to cast it in combat or just before combat.

4. SG require concentration, divide damage in more than one rounds, have much worse range and radius, unfriendly to allies(Fireball could avoid allies, but SG is very hostile to summoned creatures because they may not be summoned when SG is casted). The debuff effect is very weak, 10ft movement reduce is only a bonus at best. Yeah SG scale better, but lv4 SG is still much worse than fireball, on higher levels fireball is no longer a good spell and SG need to compete with better damage spells.

5. If you disagree cleric is worst full caster in 5e, which class is among wizard/sorcerer/warlock/druid/bard?

2) Oh that, yeah, they aren't great with it. It's neither unique nor the only unique feature though.

3) I mean... That's how you are meant to use it so... Yes?

4) Fireball can't avoid allies unless you mean that they aren't within the radius which like you said is larger then SG so Fireball would still be worst at it.
And it's halved speed, not 10 feet of movement. You're confusing it with Spirit Shroud, I think.
Of course thah changes for an Evoker but comparing the blasting-centric wizard's Fireball isn't very fair.

5) Obviously warlock if you want to talk about full casting. Less slots and less versatility- even if it had the better spell list (arguable) it would still be worst at it. Warlocks aren't even real full casters, honestly.

[da newt]

"SG ... unfriendly to allies(Fireball could avoid allies, but SG is very hostile to summoned creatures because they may not be summoned when SG is casted)."

Huh? When you cast SG you get to choose who is unaffected, that's part of the spell. In order to avoid allies with a fireball you have to be a specific subclass of wizard.

"3. Difference between Inspiring Leader and Twilight Sanctuary are small, if you want "continuely regenerates the lost THP" then you would need to cast it in combat or just before combat."

The IL feat cost you a feat/ASI to grant level+CHA mod temp hp once per SR and takes 10 minutes.

Twilight Sanctuary
At 2nd level, you can use your Channel Divinity to refresh your allies with soothing twilight. As an action, you present your holy symbol, and a sphere of twilight emanates from you. The sphere is centered on you, has a 30-foot radius, and is filled with dim light. The sphere moves with you, and it lasts for 1 minute or until you are incapacitated or die. Whenever a creature (including you) ends its turn in the sphere, you can grant that creature one of these benefits:
You grant it temporary hit points equal to 1d6 plus your cleric level.
You end one effect on it causing it to be charmed or frightened.

Twilight Sanctuary is HUGELY more effective, and after 6th lvl you can do it twice per SR, provide the temp HP every round for a full minute (10 rounds of combat), and uncharm/frighten folks.


"1. Wizard/Sorcerer are best tank in 5e and almost must be melee(try stay close to enemy to increase DPS, protect other team member)."

Double HUH? Care to justify this opinion?

[x3n0n]

"SG ... unfriendly to allies(Fireball could avoid allies, but SG is very hostile to summoned creatures because they may not be summoned when SG is casted)."

Huh? When you cast SG you get to choose who is unaffected, that's part of the spell. In order to avoid allies with a fireball you have to be a specific subclass of wizard.


I think this is "creatures summoned *after SG has started* are not eligible for exclusion, and will get cooked and slowed".

[da newt]

I think this is "creatures summoned *after SG has started* are not eligible for exclusion, and will get cooked and slowed".

True - IF a party member decides to summon creatures AFTER you cast SG and they decide to move into the SG range of 15' from the cleric then they are affected by the spell (if it's a tuesday and the moon is waxing ...)

That is almost as ridiculous as stating 'conjure animals is a terrible spell because if the summoned beasts walk into lava then you wasted a spell slot.'

[x3n0n]

I think this is "creatures summoned *after SG has started* are not eligible for exclusion, and will get cooked and slowed".

True - IF a party member decides to summon creatures AFTER you cast SG and they decide to move into the SG range of 15' from the cleric then they are affected by the spell (if it's a tuesday and the moon is waxing ...)

That is almost as ridiculous as stating 'conjure animals is a terrible spell because if the summoned beasts walk into lava then you wasted a spell slot.'

I also think this is less of an issue than ship suggested. Assuming both players intend to cast in the first round, the Cleric can Ready SG.

Perhaps there are tactical reasons to summon them in close quarters in a later round, but I don't know what they are.

[shipiaozi]

"1. Wizard/Sorcerer are best tank in 5e and almost must be melee(try stay close to enemy to increase DPS, protect other team member)."

Double HUH? Care to justify this opinion?

1. Like Paladin/Barbarian/Monk, Wizard/Sorcerer perform better in melee, they deal more damage with blade cantrips and more likely to cast certain spells such as counterspell. Ranged class like Warrior/Rogue/Artificer, have no melee class ability and higher attack range.

2. Wizard/Sorcerer have best AC and a lot of defence ability, they hold shield while physical class usually shouldn't. They have shield/absord element and want to spend low-level spell slots to use them, otherwise they would be wasted. In addition, wizard and sorcerer should not invest on caster ability while physical dps and hexblade usually need to, their best feat pick usually are some defence boost.

[shipiaozi]

2) Oh that, yeah, they aren't great with it. It's neither unique nor the only unique feature though.

3) I mean... That's how you are meant to use it so... Yes?

4) Fireball can't avoid allies unless you mean that they aren't within the radius which like you said is larger then SG so Fireball would still be worst at it.
And it's halved speed, not 10 feet of movement. You're confusing it with Spirit Shroud, I think.
Of course thah changes for an Evoker but comparing the blasting-centric wizard's Fireball isn't very fair.

5) Obviously warlock if you want to talk about full casting. Less slots and less versatility- even if it had the better spell list (arguable) it would still be worst at it. Warlocks aren't even real full casters, honestly.


2) It's the best feature cleric could provide(maybe the final trait of Arcane Domain is close, consider how bad Cleric list is), and extremely powerful. "Full damage" equals to action surge plus extra spell slot, minus the loss to cast AOE spell instead of the spell without this trait. Action surge is really great to make many people believe Caster X/Warrior 2 is not garbage, the Destructive Wrath is much better than action surge without spell slots loss!

3) No, unless adventure usually allow pre-buff, Cleric should cast it after the rest, same as Inspiring Leader.

4) Fireball is really good at avoid ally damage, you could just select area without ally. SG need to move close enemy to work, and creature summoned after you casted the spell probably are here too, very annoying. Ofc Cleric could use prepared action, but then that's waste of 1 reaction and some damage.

On speed, I read the spell des again and it seems worse than I originally thought. I thought enemy only need 10ft to move outside the area so it likes 10ft movement reduce. However, it seems enemy regain speed after move out of the area, so a creature with 30ft movement could move 10ft in area and 20ft outside the area? Not sure about this but no matter what the effect is small.

[Chronic]

Yeah sure, your games must be strange if you think sorcerer and wizard are the best tank. They have a limited amount of the spell shield, which is an excellent spell, but even if you invest HEAVILY to get medium/heavy armor and shield proficiency, you still have so much low level spells slots and ****ty hp, and you will need either 15 strength or 14 dex. You will also suck at grapple, and good ac or not, the ennemies will LOVE the fact that they don't have to run up to you.
At low level you won't have enough spells to be useful AND tanky, at high level you won't compete with classically built wizard.

[Eldariel]

Yeah sure, your games must be strange if you think sorcerer and wizard are the best tank. They have a limited amount of the spell shield, which is an excellent spell, but even if you invest HEAVILY to get medium/heavy armor and shield proficiency, you still have so much low level spells slots and ****ty hp, and you will need either 15 strength or 14 dex. You will also suck at grapple, and good ac or not, the ennemies will LOVE the fact that they don't have to run up to you.
At low level you won't have enough spells to be useful AND tanky, at high level you won't compete with classically built wizard.

Okay, seriously, on what planet is the difference between d6 and d10 HD that important? Sure, it exists, but on each level it's often 0-1 extra hits. It's the least impactful difference in durability. Like assuming 16 Con, on level 1 it's pretty big at 9/13 HP (4/9 or 45%ish) but on level 3 it's already down to 23/31 (8/23 or 35%ish) and on level 20 it's mere 42/142 or 29%.

It doesn't take more than Shield or Absorb Elements blocking one effect to come out even. Of course Abjurer just straight-up is even far as durability goes.


For HP tanking the only classes with real advantages are Barb (due to resistance) and Moon Druid (due to massive amounts of temporary HP). And later Polymorph casters and similars. HD exists but it comes do far behind class features in importance that it's not even funny.