Epic dragons

[Biggus]

On my extended trawl-through of epic monsters, I've come to the epic dragons (force and prismatic). Now I look at them properly, they're wonky AF; the rate at which their AC, SR and caster level increase don't fit at all with their supposed CRs, resulting in them being ridiculously tough in some ways and ridiculously vulnerable in others at higher age categories.

But then I looked at their CRs, and was even more puzzled. The force dragon in particular; between young and very old, their CR increases by 2-4 per age category, then it jumps by 7 and then 9 at wyrm and great wyrm. Looking at the new and improved abilities they get at each age category, I'm at a complete loss to why this is. The prismatic dragon is the other way round, its CR increases are fairly smooth at higher age categories, but jump around seemingly randomly between wyrmling and juvenile.

The nearest thing to an explanation I can come up with is that in 3.0, their CR seems to be partly based on what weapon is required to overcome their damage reduction (they both require +10 weapons at CR 40ish and +12 weapons at CR 50ish for example). But that still doesn't really explain some of the jumps: all force dragons get at great wyrm (other than their regular HD-based increases) are telekinetic sphere and invisibility, both of which they could have learned as spells long ago if they wanted them.

Has anyone used epic dragons in a game? If so, did their actual difficulty match their CR?

Beyond that, can anyone shed any light on why epic dragons are how they are? Is there some kind of reason behind it or were their numbers just determined by throwing darts at a dartboard?

[noob]

On my extended trawl-through of epic monsters, I've come to the epic dragons (force and prismatic). Now I look at them properly, they're wonky AF; the rate at which their AC, SR and caster level increase don't fit at all with their supposed CRs, resulting in them being ridiculously tough in some ways and ridiculously vulnerable in others at higher age categories.

But then I looked at their CRs, and was even more puzzled. The force dragon in particular; between young and very old, their CR increases by 2-4 per age category, then it jumps by 7 and then 9 at wyrm and great wyrm. Looking at the new and improved abilities they get at each age category, I'm at a complete loss to why this is. The prismatic dragon is the other way round, its CR increases are fairly smooth at higher age categories, but jump around seemingly randomly between wyrmling and juvenile.

The nearest thing to an explanation I can come up with is that in 3.0, their CR seems to be partly based on what weapon is required to overcome their damage reduction (they both require +10 weapons at CR 40ish and +12 weapons at CR 50ish for example). But that still doesn't really explain some of the jumps: all force dragons get at great wyrm (other than their regular HD-based increases) are telekinetic sphere and invisibility, both of which they could have learned as spells long ago if they wanted them.

Has anyone used epic dragons in a game? If so, did their actual difficulty match their CR?

Beyond that, can anyone shed any light on why epic dragons are how they are? Is there some kind of reason behind it or were their numbers just determined by throwing darts at a dartboard?

A little bit is random and a little bit is based on overvaluing things that are not necessarily very important like slas for a creature with high sorcerer casting or overvaluing size categories.

[RNightstalker]

I think Epic dragons are like they are because dragons in 3.x are severely flawed from the start. I think one of the biggest things that makes dragons lower than their CR is their Dexterity score. Most will get killed because they never get a turn in...we faced something to the equivalent of a mature adult black dragon and only two players got a turn in and it was dead...
Dragons should have an ability that allows them to get racial bonuses to initiative and also using their ST or something like that. Every dragon in MMI has initiative +0...and the fact that their DR is overcome by magic weapons only is pathetic...you would think the namesake monster would be a little tougher.

[upho]

On my extended trawl-through of epic monsters:smallconfused: Are you some kind of weird intellectual masochist? Or some kind of trash design junkie? :smallwink:

More seriously though, I hope you're getting something out of your trawl that isn't game related, 'cause there's precious little of actual game value to be found in what is probably the most horrendously designed 1PP book ever made for 3e.


Beyond that, can anyone shed any light on why epic dragons are how they are? Is there some kind of reason behind it or were their numbers just determined by throwing darts at a dartboard?According to my admittedly hazy memories of 3.0, the only explanation I could add to those mentioned by noob, is that epic simply allows for a far too vast optimization range, making actually meaningful and somewhat universally applicable CR assignments practically impossible.

As a bit of an aside, it does however seem to me that the inconsistent - and largely arbitrary - CR scaling is first and foremost the result of embarrassingly poor and insufficient assessments of the relative mechanical power of different creature abilities/values (monsters as well as N/PCs). Although I suppose the core system and monster design guidelines, rather than the ELH designers, were ultimately responsible for many of these poor assessments and simply exacerbated to face-palm levels in the ELH.


Has anyone used epic dragons in a game? If so, did their actual difficulty match their CR?Haven't used any of them in a game, but I don't think I need to in order to conclude that at least those with the higher ratings would require a lot of epic spell and feat tinkering to match their actual power with their given CR in most games. And I'm having a hard time seeing how that could be done without also adding a lot of houserules/homebrew, and/or without also making them basically TO builds practically useless in most real games.

Perhaps more importantly though, as written I find them uninspiring and lazy "copy-paste and inflate"-design, offering no unique interesting or fun mechanics or tactics.

[Biggus]

I think Epic dragons are like they are because dragons in 3.x are severely flawed from the start. I think one of the biggest things that makes dragons lower than their CR is their Dexterity score. Most will get killed because they never get a turn in...we faced something to the equivalent of a mature adult black dragon and only two players got a turn in and it was dead...
Dragons should have an ability that allows them to get racial bonuses to initiative and also using their ST or something like that. Every dragon in MMI has initiative +0...and the fact that their DR is overcome by magic weapons only is pathetic...you would think the namesake monster would be a little tougher.

The low Dex score is only a catastrophic vulnerability in relation to Shivering Touch as far as I'm aware. Many dragons can choose Cleric spells, so those ones will all take Spell Immunity if they're as intelligent as they're supposed to be.

As far as I can see, it's Shivering Touch itself which is badly designed in this context rather than dragons, as it can shut down any creature of average or lower Dex instantly, which is ludicrously overpowered for a 3rd-level spell. I only outright ban about 10 spells out of the 2000+ published for 3E, but ST is one of them.

There are several spells which can boost initiative (Nerveskitter, Combat Readiness, Sign, Heroics, Cat's Grace) which are all quite low-level. Having said that, an initiative boost for dragons isn't a bad idea, maybe equal to their age category.

Agreed that dragon's DR is completely useless in 3.5, so much so that I've considered going back to 3.0 DR for dragons only. At the very least, it should have a material (perhaps adamantine) added to the requirements at higher age categories, or maybe have a lower level of DR/- in addition to the DR/magic.


:smallconfused: Are you some kind of weird intellectual masochist? Or some kind of trash design junkie? :smallwink:

LOL, fair comment. I'm currently running a campaign which is likely to go to epic levels, and while my players certainly aren't hardcore optimizers they're no fools either, so I've been looking at the epic monsters to try and patch up some of their most obvious weaknesses after a comment on here by Endarire pointed out that nearly all of the non-caster epic monsters can be defeated by one of five common tactics.


More seriously though, I hope you're getting something out of your trawl that isn't game related, 'cause there's precious little of actual game value to be found in what is probably the most horrendously designed 1PP book ever made for 3e.

What's 1PP?


According to my admittedly hazy memories of 3.0, the only explanation I could add to those mentioned by noob, is that epic simply allows for a far too vast optimization range, making actually meaningful and somewhat universally applicable CR assignments practically impossible.

This is a fair point.


As a bit of an aside, it does however seem to me that the inconsistent - and largely arbitrary - CR scaling is first and foremost the result of embarrassingly poor and insufficient assessments of the relative mechanical power of different creature abilities/values (monsters as well as N/PCs). Although I suppose the core system and monster design guidelines, rather than the ELH designers, were ultimately responsible for many of these poor assessments and simply exacerbated to face-palm levels in the ELH.

Yeah, in some books the CRs are a reasonable guideline, in others (MM2 and ELH in particular) they're...not, to be very polite about it.

[RNightstalker]

The low Dex score is only a catastrophic vulnerability in relation to Shivering Touch as far as I'm aware. Many dragons can choose Cleric spells, so those ones will all take Spell Immunity if they're as intelligent as they're supposed to be.

As far as I can see, it's Shivering Touch itself which is badly designed in this context rather than dragons, as it can shut down any creature of average or lower Dex instantly, which is ludicrously overpowered for a 3rd-level spell. I only outright ban about 10 spells out of the 2000+ published for 3E, but ST is one of them.

There are several spells which can boost initiative (Nerveskitter, Combat Readiness, Sign, Heroics, Cat's Grace) which are all quite low-level. Having said that, an initiative boost for dragons isn't a bad idea, maybe equal to their age category.

Agreed that dragon's DR is completely useless in 3.5, so much so that I've considered going back to 3.0 DR for dragons only. At the very least, it should have a material (perhaps adamantine) added to the requirements at higher age categories, or maybe have a lower level of DR/- in addition to the DR/magic.

Endarire pointed out that nearly all of the non-caster epic monsters can be defeated by one of five common tactics.



I was unaware of Shivering Touch and you're right...it's on the ban list! Nobody ever came out and said that was a typo?!?

In the games I run I'm working on using 3.0 DR on ALL monsters...especially epic ones. The monsters got screwed on that update.

What are those five common tactics? I'm remembering a game I inherited where the entire party basically had greater blink persisted, and it wasn't fun for me...I glazed over the sight restrictions on that spell which I'll need to take advantage of next time.

[Khedrac]

What's 1PP?

Probably "First (1st) Party Product"

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Shivering touch is even worse than most people think it is. Note that it deals Dex damage on a touch, and it lasts for 1 round/lvl. So that means that every touch attack you make for CL rounds deals 3d6 Dex damage. And ability damage is instantaneous and lasts until healed. So a level 20 wizard can deal 40 touch attacks (2/round for 20 rounds), or 60 with haste. In the latter case, that's 180d6 Dex damage. And all of it done at Medium Range (100'+10'/lvl) with spectral hand. Or twice that with Enlarge Spell.

And forget about Ocular Spell + Chain Spell.

[Biggus]

What are those five common tactics?

To quote the original post: "forcecage, flight, (improved) invisibility, long-range weaponry (mostly spells), and simply going first".


Probably "First (1st) Party Product"

Ah, thank you.


Shivering touch is even worse than most people think it is. Note that it deals Dex damage on a touch, and it lasts for 1 round/lvl. So that means that every touch attack you make for CL rounds deals 3d6 Dex damage. And ability damage is instantaneous and lasts until healed. So a level 20 wizard can deal 40 touch attacks (2/round for 20 rounds), or 60 with haste. In the latter case, that's 180d6 Dex damage. And all of it done at Medium Range (100'+10'/lvl) with spectral hand. Or twice that with Enlarge Spell.

And forget about Ocular Spell + Chain Spell.

That seems a rather odd interpretation. I would have thought that the spell is discharged when you touch someone, and the effect lasts for one round per level, like most similar spells. What are you basing your interpretation on?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

That seems a rather odd interpretation. I would have thought that the spell is discharged when you touch someone, and the effect lasts for one round per level, like most similar spells. What are you basing your interpretation on?Ability score damage is instantaneous; otherwise, it would be a penalty. There is no such thing as "temporary" damage, to my knowledge (and if there's an effect that does do that, it would say so, which shivering touch doesn't). So touching a creature with shivering touch deals instantaneous Dex damage. The spell doesn't have any mention of discharging in it; it simply allows you to make touch attacks for 1 round/lvl, each dealing 3d6 Dex damage. Otherwise, it'd say "or until discharged" like other hold-the-charge spells do, and yet it doesn't say that. Compare to literally any other spell that discharges when used.

The only way the spell can function, considering how it's written, is that it allows you to continue making Dex-damaging touch attacks throughout its duration, and each time you successfully touch an enemy, it takes an instantaneous 3d6 Dex damage.

[upho]

The low Dex score is only a catastrophic vulnerability in relation to Shivering Touch as far as I'm aware. Many dragons can choose Cleric spells, so those ones will all take Spell Immunity if they're as intelligent as they're supposed to be.
...
There are several spells which can boost initiative (Nerveskitter, Combat Readiness, Sign, Heroics, Cat's Grace) which are all quite low-level. Having said that, an initiative boost for dragons isn't a bad idea, maybe equal to their age category.This.

In 3.x as well as PF1, I believe dragons have an unusually wonky and unreliable CR. And disregarding the idiocy that is shivering touch, I believe dragons in general are actually infamously underrated. And for good reasons that are obvious when comparing them to the large majority of monsters sharing the same ratings. As a player, it's perhaps also easy to become biased by having faced most dragons as lone BBEGs (or supported only by a few far less dangerous minions), which of course puts practically any monster at a considerable disadvantage when facing an entire party of PCs. Yet even in such BBEG-type scenarios, the simple fact that most dragons don't come with a preset pile of trash feats and crap spells means they actually can be made capable of presenting a far greater challenge than almost any other monster of the same CR.

But I agree an initiative boost wouldn't be out of place, at least not in games where dragons are otherwise required to spend so much of their resources mitigating that weakness in order to become viable threats. Though it's worth noting that in such games, tons of monsters are invalidated by a poor initiative, and that unlike most dragons, most of these lack the means to do anything about it as written. So unless the DM wants Mary Sue dragons or is too lazy to build them properly, all those other monster probably also need a similar initiative boost.


LOL, fair comment. I'm currently running a campaign which is likely to go to epic levels, and while my players certainly aren't hardcore optimizers they're no fools either, so I've been looking at the epic monsters to try and patch up some of their most obvious weaknesses after a comment on here by Endarire pointed out that nearly all of the non-caster epic monsters can be defeated by one of five common tactics.Yeah, I believe it was quite telling that a PF gunslinger 20, albeit with modern firearms, and even a PF melee control fighter 20 without cheese, Mythic or much immediate prep, would easily take out at least a large majority of those monsters before the they could act, often even in encounters including more than one monster. Perhaps especially telling in the case of the fighter, because she wouldn't even need her high initiative to solo most of the non-caster monsters, and can't use any of the other tactics mentioned by Endaire.

And again, most of the extremely high base numbers of epic monsters are easily rendered meaningless simply because they're not properly supported by other capabilities. As I touched upon in the thread about epic monsters vs. PF PCs where Endaire made that comment, I believe the monsters typically lack absolutely vital such supporting capabilities, notably in three areas:

1. Sufficient Action Radius
If an epic monster is turned into a sitting duck simply because the PCs have some basic 3D mobility and ranged offense, it's not an epic monster IMO. IOW, unless a monster is only ever faced in more cramped environments or is somehow able to simply ignore most ranged offense, it must at the very least have either good long range offense or sufficient 3D mobility and related action economy to use its short range offense effectively. (Naturally, this includes also having the senses, skills and/or other abilities required to benefit from an improved action radius also when true seeing isn't enough and against at least PCs with standard baseline sneaky stuff (i.e.: decent Hide/MS skills, mind blank, greater invisibility, etc), but thankfully I believe many (most?) epic monsters already do pretty well in this particular regard.)

2. Powerful Active Defenses
A monster's chances of surviving the opening round against a high level party of PCs are rarely - or at least should rarely be - solely a function of the monster's initiative and passive defense numbers (hp/DR/resistances, AC, saves etc), but at least equally of how well it can prevent the PCs from taking offensive actions, and/or avoid any dire direct consequences of those actions. And most epic monster are hopelessly lacking in this department, with few of the melee focused ones having even the most basic stuff, like sufficient reach, additional AoO triggers and strong AoO hit effects, much less any means to counter decently built and played caster PCs. The monsters without set spell lists should of course also consider foresight to avoid surprise an absolute no-brainer, while those without that option should at the very least have uncanny dodge/equivalent (EDIT: the PF version (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/Core-Classes/Barbarian/#Uncanny_Dodge_Ex) allowing for immediate actions and AoOs before having acted in combat /EDIT), combined with defensive out-of-turn actions.

When it comes to the dragons specifically, they thankfully already have access to one great such ability: wings of cover. But I believe they need more than that in most games, not to mention many of the less fortunate monsters. I'd start by pilfering from PF, such as related barbarian rage powers (like come and get me (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo-rage-powers/come-and-get-me-ex), savage dirty trick (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo-rage-powers/savage-dirty-trick-ex) and unexpected strike (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo-rage-powers/unexpected-strike-ex)), the Swashbuckler's excellent Opportune Parry and Riposte (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/Swashbuckler/#Deeds) deed, the dirty trick (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/Gamemastering/Combat/#TOC-Dirty-Trick) combat maneuver and all related feats (like Dirty Trick Master (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dirty-trick-master-combat/)) along with PoW's powerful the Seize the Opportunity (https://libraryofmetzofitz.fandom.com/wiki/Seize_the_Opportunity) feat, the many great counters and stances found in PoW disciplines (notably in Eternal Guardian (https://libraryofmetzofitz.fandom.com/wiki/Eternal_Guardian) and Radiant Dawn (https://libraryofmetzofitz.fandom.com/wiki/Radiant_Dawn)) and probably also steal the related "basic mythic abilities (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/mythic/mythic-heroes/#Base_Mythic_Abilities)" granted by PF's mythic progression (such as Amazing Initiative, Force of Will, and Unstoppable). And speaking of PF's mythic, the common +10 initiative granted to most of the highest rated mythic monsters is probably also fitting for most epic monsters.

EDIT: And perhaps also Disruptive (Mythic) (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/mythic/mythic-feats/disruptive-mythic) and Spellbreaker (Mythic) (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/mythic/mythic-feats/spellbreaker-mythic) (treating creatures with fewer HD as "non-mythic") /EDIT

3. Effective Action Economy
In addition to having effective out-of-turn defensive actions to have a chance of surviving a round of PC turns, epic monsters need a way to put their offense to greater use during their own turns. For example, very few of them, and none of the dragons IIRC, have any melee hit effects other than hp damage. No free action combat maneuvers beyond grapple (which is often negated and a poor action trade), no tactical repositioning of enemies or allies, no debuff effects, no free spellcasting. On top of this, very few can even move and use their melee in a way which directly steals actions from the enemy during one and the same turn. And even fewer of those which also have more substantial casting/SLAs can combine the use of those abilities with their melee stuff in an effective manner.

This means that even if for example a dragon manages to deal enough damage to kill or KO a PC with a full attack, the gains in terms of "enemy actions negated and other advantages gained" relative the actions spent will most likely suck, especially in comparison to what the dragon could most likely get from spending that move and standard on casting AoE control/debuff or even personal buff (non-epic) spell(s). In short, the dragons' high base melee numbers are largely wasted even in situations when their enemies are within melee range and clearly seen, primarily because their attacks only deal hp damage, which is relatively pointless unless it's actually enough to kill/KO (and wasted if more than that) and often easily mitigated by high level PCs. Personally, I'd prefer most dragons being far more dangerous in close combat than when sniping with spells from the air.

Again, I'd try to get away with having to do as little work as possible, and simply steal the most suitable PF stuff, especially from PoW disciplines and mythic stuff like Dual Initiative (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/mythic/mythic-monsters/mythic-universal-monster-rules/#Dual_Initiative_Ex), plus for example the Magus' Spell Combat (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/Magus/#Spell_Combat_Ex) and Spellstrike (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/Magus/#Spellstrike_Su) features for gish monsters.

EDIT: And I forgot the perhaps most important one for non-casters: spell sunder (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo-rage-powers/spell-sunder-su) (usable in place of any number of melee attacks, 1/round, or just 1/encounter, depending on the monster and CR in question). PC casters will hopefully soon learn to fear melee monsters once they've found out they can't all be dismissed with easy win-buttons like forcecage or prismatic wall, and especially once they've seen one effortlessly tear through their layers of epic defensive spells faster and more reliably than any caster could... :smallamused: /EDIT


What's 1PP?"1st Party Publisher", meaning the publisher of the core rules system (WotC in the case of D&D and the ELH). Compare to "3PP", which refers to publishers releasing stuff for a core rules system they didn't publish themselves (such as Dreamscarred Press, Necromancer Games, Green Ronin, etc).


Yeah, in some books the CRs are a reasonable guideline, in others (MM2 and ELH in particular) they're...not, to be very polite about it.Yeah, especially in epic levels, I believe you'll simply have to live with putting in a bit more work analyzing and tweaking opponents to ensure they're suitable for the PCs (and grant a suitable amount of XP, if applicable).


What are those five common tactics? I'm remembering a game I inherited where the entire party basically had greater blink persisted, and it wasn't fun for me...I glazed over the sight restrictions on that spell which I'll need to take advantage of next time.
The most notable WotC epic threats from the SRD are the casters, mostly the Dragons. Much of everything else can be beaten with forcecage, flight, (improved) invisibility, long-range weaponry (mostly spells), and simply going first.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

As mentioned above, a lot of true dragons have arcane spellcasting (as sorcerers, some of which also have select cleric spells available), so having access to nerveskitter is a must. Having a +1 defending/spellstrike/warning/eager weapon with access to greater magic weapon would be nice, as well. Most of the big dragons can certainly afford one easily enough, especially if it's also sizing and morphing and was originally an arrow. Having one implanted in its body in such a way that the party is likely to overlook it (unless they regularly render monster bodies down for parts), such as being grafted via the tooth of Leraje, or something even harder to find, could give it a major advantage while making it unlikely for the party to get hold of it.

[Biggus]

Ability score damage is instantaneous; otherwise, it would be a penalty. There is no such thing as "temporary" damage, to my knowledge (and if there's an effect that does do that, it would say so, which shivering touch doesn't). So touching a creature with shivering touch deals instantaneous Dex damage. The spell doesn't have any mention of discharging in it; it simply allows you to make touch attacks for 1 round/lvl, each dealing 3d6 Dex damage. Otherwise, it'd say "or until discharged" like other hold-the-charge spells do, and yet it doesn't say that. Compare to literally any other spell that discharges when used.

The only way the spell can function, considering how it's written, is that it allows you to continue making Dex-damaging touch attacks throughout its duration, and each time you successfully touch an enemy, it takes an instantaneous 3d6 Dex damage.

Wow. I'm still pretty sure my interpretation was the intended meaning, but I have to agree that by RAW yours is the most logical.



But I agree an initiative boost wouldn't be out of place, at least not in games where dragons are otherwise required to spend so much of their resources mitigating that weakness in order to become viable threats. Though it's worth noting that in such games, tons of monsters are invalidated by a poor initiative, and that unlike most dragons, most of these lack the means to do anything about it as written. So unless the DM wants Mary Sue dragons or is too lazy to build them properly, all those other monster probably also need a similar initiative boost.

Agreed, I have borrowed the +10 insight bonus to initiative that PF gives to archangels and so on for some epic monsters.



2. Powerful Active Defenses
A monster's chances of surviving the opening round against a high level party of PCs are rarely - or at least should rarely be - solely a function of the monster's initiative and passive defense numbers (hp/DR/resistances, AC, saves etc), but at least equally of how well it can prevent the PCs from taking offensive actions, and/or avoid any dire direct consequences of those actions. And most epic monster are hopelessly lacking in this department, with few of the melee focused ones having even the most basic stuff, like sufficient reach, additional AoO triggers and strong AoO hit effects, much less any means to counter decently built and played caster PCs. The monsters without set spell lists should of course also consider foresight to avoid surprise an absolute no-brainer, while those without that option should at the very least have uncanny dodge/equivalent (EDIT: the PF version (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/Core-Classes/Barbarian/#Uncanny_Dodge_Ex) allowing for immediate actions and AoOs before having acted in combat /EDIT), combined with defensive out-of-turn actions.

When it comes to the dragons specifically, they thankfully already have access to one great such ability: wings of cover. But I believe they need more than that in most games, not to mention many of the less fortunate monsters. I'd start by pilfering from PF, such as related barbarian rage powers (like come and get me (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo-rage-powers/come-and-get-me-ex), savage dirty trick (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo-rage-powers/savage-dirty-trick-ex) and unexpected strike (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo-rage-powers/unexpected-strike-ex)), the Swashbuckler's excellent Opportune Parry and Riposte (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/Swashbuckler/#Deeds) deed, the dirty trick (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/Gamemastering/Combat/#TOC-Dirty-Trick) combat maneuver and all related feats (like Dirty Trick Master (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dirty-trick-master-combat/)) along with PoW's powerful the Seize the Opportunity (https://libraryofmetzofitz.fandom.com/wiki/Seize_the_Opportunity) feat, the many great counters and stances found in PoW disciplines (notably in Eternal Guardian (https://libraryofmetzofitz.fandom.com/wiki/Eternal_Guardian) and Radiant Dawn (https://libraryofmetzofitz.fandom.com/wiki/Radiant_Dawn)) and probably also steal the related "basic mythic abilities (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/mythic/mythic-heroes/#Base_Mythic_Abilities)" granted by PF's mythic progression (such as Amazing Initiative, Force of Will, and Unstoppable). And speaking of PF's mythic, the common +10 initiative granted to most of the highest rated mythic monsters is probably also fitting for most epic monsters.

EDIT: And perhaps also Disruptive (Mythic) (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/mythic/mythic-feats/disruptive-mythic) and Spellbreaker (Mythic) (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/mythic/mythic-feats/spellbreaker-mythic) (treating creatures with fewer HD as "non-mythic") /EDIT

3. Effective Action Economy
In addition to having effective out-of-turn defensive actions to have a chance of surviving a round of PC turns, epic monsters need a way to put their offense to greater use during their own turns. For example, very few of them, and none of the dragons IIRC, have any melee hit effects other than hp damage. No free action combat maneuvers beyond grapple (which is often negated and a poor action trade), no tactical repositioning of enemies or allies, no debuff effects, no free spellcasting. On top of this, very few can even move and use their melee in a way which directly steals actions from the enemy during one and the same turn. And even fewer of those which also have more substantial casting/SLAs can combine the use of those abilities with their melee stuff in an effective manner.

This means that even if for example a dragon manages to deal enough damage to kill or KO a PC with a full attack, the gains in terms of "enemy actions negated and other advantages gained" relative the actions spent will most likely suck, especially in comparison to what the dragon could most likely get from spending that move and standard on casting AoE control/debuff or even personal buff (non-epic) spell(s). In short, the dragons' high base melee numbers are largely wasted even in situations when their enemies are within melee range and clearly seen, primarily because their attacks only deal hp damage, which is relatively pointless unless it's actually enough to kill/KO (and wasted if more than that) and often easily mitigated by high level PCs. Personally, I'd prefer most dragons being far more dangerous in close combat than when sniping with spells from the air.

Again, I'd try to get away with having to do as little work as possible, and simply steal the most suitable PF stuff, especially from PoW disciplines and mythic stuff like Dual Initiative (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/mythic/mythic-monsters/mythic-universal-monster-rules/#Dual_Initiative_Ex), plus for example the Magus' Spell Combat (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/Magus/#Spell_Combat_Ex) and Spellstrike (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/Magus/#Spellstrike_Su) features for gish monsters.

EDIT: And I forgot the perhaps most important one for non-casters: spell sunder (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo-rage-powers/spell-sunder-su) (usable in place of any number of melee attacks, 1/round, or just 1/encounter, depending on the monster and CR in question). PC casters will hopefully soon learn to fear melee monsters once they've found out they can't all be dismissed with easy win-buttons like forcecage or prismatic wall, and especially once they've seen one effortlessly tear through their layers of epic defensive spells faster and more reliably than any caster could... :smallamused: /EDIT


Thanks for all the suggestions! I will give them a read, if I don't use them for the dragons they'll probably come in useful for other epic monsters :smallsmile:

[RNightstalker]

Wow. I'm still pretty sure my interpretation was the intended meaning, but I have to agree that by RAW yours is the most logical.


Shivering touch has a singular target. The duration is how long they are shivering. The Dexterity damage comes back 1 pt/day, or 2 pts/day of complete bedrest.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Shivering touch has a singular target. The duration is how long they are shivering. The Dexterity damage comes back 1 pt/day, or 2 pts/day of complete bedrest.According to the SRD:


Touch Spells and Holding the Charge
In most cases, if you don’t discharge a touch spell on the round you cast it, you can hold the charge (postpone the discharge of the spell) indefinitely. You can make touch attacks round after round. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates.So at the very least, you can continue making touch attacks for more Dex damage repeatedly against the one target without discharging the spell. It's not discharged, after all.

[Biggus]

Shivering touch has a singular target. The duration is how long they are shivering. The Dexterity damage comes back 1 pt/day, or 2 pts/day of complete bedrest.

Sorry, are you saying that the shivering and the Dex damage are two separate things, and that the shivering has no actual game effect? The way Lesser ST is worded certainly looks to me as though they meant that the shivering is what causes the Dex loss (and is part of the reason I'm pretty sure they meant a Dex penalty, not Dex damage).

[RNightstalker]

Sorry, are you saying that the shivering and the Dex damage are two separate things, and that the shivering has no actual game effect? The way Lesser ST is worded certainly looks to me as though they meant that the shivering is what causes the Dex loss (and is part of the reason I'm pretty sure they meant a Dex penalty, not Dex damage).

The shivering does cause the ability damage, but you're not shivering for the days it will take to recover the dexterity damage. Both spells, the normal and the lesser, clearly say dexterity damage, and the DMG has something to say about the difference between ability damage and ability drain, and how you regain/heal ability damage.

[One Step Two]

In relation to dragons in general, which also applies to their Epic Kin, is that Dragons are pretty impressive creatures, and treating them as islands unto themselves is a bad encounter design as a whole. Even putting aside it's natural spell-casting that can augment it's ability to affect the area it lives in, it's presence should be enough to affect it's locale, having smaller creatures worship it, or revere it's presence, acting as informal scouts or guards can act to give it warning, or aid when attackers are present.

Dragons older than Wyrmling of any colour should have allies that it can count on, as even a Young Dragon is 31-50 years of age, it's hardly sitting in a bubble that entire time, even if all they have is family it's something they can rely on to help keep it safe. After all, loving one's family should hardly be out of the ordinary for any dragon to feel, even if they are evil. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0628.html)