Epic Rogue Build help - ECL 38!!!

[KoDT69]

So back in the golden age of AD&D I played a lot of characters to very high levels. When I started at the age of 14 I had nothing else to do, so my group played no less than twice a week at 12 hours per session (normally consuming my weekends) and again 2 or 3 nights a week at 4-5 hours each. Needless to say some of them reached 80+ levels. When 3rd edition came out I started to convert the legions of my group's characters to find they won't be fun to play anymore unless I make some houseruled changes. Their respective powers increased dramatically by RAW. That's beside the point. My first character was a rogue/wizard/fighter back in the day. He is being converted over at 38 total character levels. He is a standard halfling. Starting stats are as follows: STR 16, DEX 20, CON 14, INT 17, WIS 15, CHA 18 (Yes I rolled very well for my first character!!! And the DEX and STR are bumped the extra for the 3rd edition halfling racial adjustments).

I would like him to still be primarily rogue, and part sorcerer. My Initial thought is Rogue 19 / Shadowdancer 1 / Sorcerer 18. Yes I know also, this will not get me epic spellcasting, but for the old character converts that are all beyond epic, I am limiting that cheese anyway, so it's not really important. And sorcerer is sub-par compared to wizard, but I prefer the flavor for this character better. He was definitely no bookworm hermit. Look at his CHA score, he was a party animal!

So, my request... Help me make one sneaky character that can double as a backup caster (my brother has the primary casters and still thinks fireball is a good option at epic level :smalleek:). Please outline feat choices and level distribution as you feel best optimised! Thanks everyone!

[Azerian Kelimon]

First choice. Change a bump to CHA to be able to cast 9th level spells.

[Kurald Galain]

Get some more prestige classes in there, like Arcane Trickster and Daggerspell Mage. The straight sorcerer class offers no real benefits beyond level one.

[brian c]

Get some more prestige classes in there, like Arcane Trickster and Daggerspell Mage. The straight sorcerer class offers no real benefits beyond level one.

Yeah, Sorcerer as a class... really doesn't need to be taken past 8th level or so (whenever you can get into a PrC). And if you're multiclassing from Rogue into Sorc, you probably only need a couple levels to qualify. Arcane Trickster improves casting at every level, and you only need 3rd level spells to get in (so after 6 levels of Sorc). Obviously, nice synergies with Rogue with the added SA dice and the Impromptu Sneak Attack ability (Here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/arcaneTrickster.htm) if you're not familiar)

[Saph]

Erk. ECL 38?

I'm sure some people on this forum have builds that can help you, but you have to realise that from about level 21 to 25 up in D&D, you're basically playing freeform. Level 38 is way into silliness territory. You can play, but the numbers don't really matter anymore; your character's power is determined by what the DM allows you to get away with.

- Saph

[Duke of URL]

Sticking solely with SRD material, I like:

Rogue 3 / Sorcerer 6 / Arcane Trickster 10 / Shadowdancer 1 / Arcane Trickster +18

You also get 9 ability score increases (+1 INT for 1 more skill point per level, +2 CHA for 9th level spells and extra spells per day, +6 DEX), 7 general feats and 6 epic feats

That's, by my calculations, +16d6 sneak attack, caster level 34, hide in plain sight, ranged legerdemain 7x/day, impromptu sneak attack 7x/day, hide in plain sight, and 4 bonus epic feats from the arcane trickster list.

[KoDT69]

Erk. ECL 38?

I'm sure some people on this forum have builds that can help you, but you have to realise that from about level 21 to 25 up in D&D, you're basically playing freeform. Level 38 is way into silliness territory. You can play, but the numbers don't really matter anymore; your character's power is determined by what the DM allows you to get away with.

- Saph

Yes Saph, you normally would be correct, however, this group that the character in question is a part of is laughable at best in optomization. I am literally the only one that knows how to optimize anything at all. This group is exactly as what D&D was tested for, Blaster casters, healbots, and Two-Weapon fighters :smalleek:

The only reason the characters are epic levels is that they were all rolled over from 2nd edition. Back then, you could have a Wizard 20 / Cleric 20 that was not a walking god. At 10th level you gained next to nothing for HP, there were no such thing as metamagic feats (so only one spell per round), and these guys having that character would still cast FIREBALL instead of something useful. Trust me when I say that the rolled over characters rangge from 26th up to 80th+ level, and mine are the only ones that can break a game :smallamused:

Aside from that, the same group only has 1 character each from our last campaign that took 5 years, played from level 1 to level 26. The casters ALL dropped fireball and flamestrikes even into epic levels. They even developed epic spells that did nothing except buttloads of d6's of energy damage. I was the DM, and it would have been all too easy to destroy a party of 8!

OK enough plot disposition, on to my final version of this character. I made a mistake he was actually level 40, almost 41. So given the non-optimized mentality of the group I took a more relaxed and gish type build.

Rogue 16 / Fighter 1 / Master Thrower 1 / Sorcerer 6 / Arcane Trickster 16

End result BaB +25, Sneak Attack +18d6 (includes bonus 2d6 from a magic item), 22nd level caster with epic casting ability and a bunch of metamagic feats (maximize, intensify, quicken, multispell, and smiting spell), and devastating critical (dagger).

We use a few houserules so the Sorc/Arcane Trickster spells are used as a wizard instead of full-round, and since sneak-attack can be added to anything with an attack roll, yeeehaw! 3 spells per round with critical and sneak attack possibility which the spell selection helps make sure it happens. He has a handful of triple-throw returning daggers, and a few blasty ray spells made with the DMG rules that he can split-ray and make 2 rays of 20d6 that get past SR and saving throws with the standard action spell and can chuck the daggers pretty quick too.

What do you all think? Too nerfed? He still beats out the level 60 elf that is like fighter 20 / rogue 12 / wizard 14 / cleric 14... Yeah, that's my brother. Sometimes he suprises us with a Maximized Fireball! 60 damage, save for 30... at 60th level.... ummm... yeah. :smallsigh:

If it helps anything I killed that character with a Fighter 5 / Wizard 5 PC back in 2nd edition and almost made him cry, at age 38 :smallamused: , good times. I also killed off his Fighter 20 / Cleric 20 with a 6th level goblin sorcerer NPC, and almost wet myself with laughter. I know I can be so mean to them sometimes. :smalltongue:

[AKA_Bait]

Beguiler 38 :-)

[Chronos]

Are you familiar with the Spellthief (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050107a)? It makes a much better mage/thief than an Arcane Trickster does, and it's even a base class, not a PrC. Even better, take Spellthief and Arcane Trickster: You may need to pull some tricks to get access to Mage Hand (spellthieves don't get cantrips), but if nothing else, a one-level dip in almost anything would get that for you.

[Ted_Stryker]

How are you doing BAB? Seeing "BAB +25" makes me wonder. Technically, RAW, you only amass BAB in the first 20 PC levels, the rest goes into "Epic Attack Bonus." This could impact the number of iterative attacks you get, because EAB doesn't count for the purpose of determining iterative attacks.

The other thing is, what order are you taking your classes in? If you backload the spellcasting classes, you won't be able to take any Epic metamagic feats or the like until very late in the build's progression. Something to keep an eye on.

[KoDT69]

AKA - While the capstone ability of the Beguiler is quite awesome, I prefer the Arcane Trickster for this build. As stated above, the group he runs with is woefully built and teir play ability even underuses the poorly built characters pretty bad. I took up Assay Spell Resistance, so I should be cool.

Chronos- The Spellthief is a cool concept as well, but I'm just not that interested in playing one myself. I'd rather have my own full power than to rely on stealing it from others. The voluntary touch attack to share spells could prove worthwhile though, still sticking with Arcane Trickster.

Ted - Dude, you are absolutely right. By RAW his AB would be lower. That is a houserule I forgot to mention. We progress saves and attack base the same as the non-epic class. It makes sense for us. I mean, if you were to play a level 30 fighter into epic (just an example, though we have some epic pure fighters in the group though none of them are my characters :smalleek:), by RAW he would have a +25 AB... for 10 levels of advancement that were a 1:1 ratio before he's all of the sudden penalized for doing what he was built to do, swing his poky-stik. Under our rules he gets +30 instead. Trust me, we all know the extra +5 AB means nothing in epic anyway because spellcasters exist. The character I built up to have 8 regular and 8 epic feats. As far as I know to get the prerequisites for the good ones, he used more as non-epic, but I'm not too worried about that. He's gonna be triple-spell sneak attacking 30th level fighters anyway, so he can stand to be a bit underpowered, hence the investment in master thrower and devastating critical.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Rogue 4 / Spymaster 4 / Sorceror 6 / Arcane Trickster 16 / Void Incarnate 10

Less sneak attack-but constant 'invisibility' that can't be seen through and a crapload of immunities.

[Ganurath]

First level: Wizard 1, Precocious Apprentice gets 2nd level slot
2-X: Rogue until you qualify for either Arcane Trickster or Geometer
5 levels: Geometer ASAP
The rest: Arcane Trickster

Be sure to pick up Ignore Material Components so you can spellglyph all your spells and therefore Silence them.