How would you turn theurges into a generic rules mechanism?

[Elves]

Mystic theurge started it but over time theurging became a familiar formula. Instead of doing it through a bevy of individual classes or even through generic classes like this (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?427306-Prestige-Class-Gestalt-Theurge) by Troacctid, how would you change theurging into a game mechanism similar to gestalt but balanced for normal play? I'm thinking of 4e's hybrid rules as a comparison.

[Troacctid]

Well, I would—

or even through generic classes like this (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?427306-Prestige-Class-Gestalt-Theurge) by Troacctid
...ah, never mind, then.

[Elves]

That PRC might be balanced for normal play if all base classes are extremely feature sparse, like cleric and wizard, so that the doubling of class features is less powerful. Maybe, for example, each class only has 5 levels of class features and after that you're expected to either PRC out or to "slot" 5-10 level packages of class features directly into the class table. Generic theurge as one of those packages, so the only "special"-column benefits you get from theurging are improvements in scaling features from low levels.

Or you could have only certain class features earmarked as theurge features with a T superscript, and only those are granted by theurging. That would require more individual work on each class but if theurging is more commonplace maybe that's worth it.

It's much more constrictive, but I kind of like the idea that instead of having "advances x" columns in PRCs, PRCs are slotted directly into the tables of base classes that can qualify for them, in 5-level chunks. So when you reach wizard 6th you might choose master specialist, and those would become your level 6-10 wizard class features. Then when you reach 11th (tier 3) you could choose to slot in levels 6-10 of master specialist or instead slot in levels 1-5 of something else. Archmage a "tier 4" class so you could only slot it in at 16th. Certainly less free with build creation, but maybe a decent medium. Obviously would not work with many PRCs as they exist now since every PRC would need to be designed as a 5 and/or 10 level package, and be limited in most cases to certain eligible classes. And every base class would need to be a 5-level package with scaling features.

[Rebel7284]

Second edition did this with dual classing, allowing you to progress two classes with all the class features in exchange for splitting your XP between the two classes. I think this can be done in 3.5 as well. For example, a ritual or a feat that gives you LA and in exchange you get to become a gestalt character.

[Hatevah]

Second edition did this with dual classing, allowing you to progress two classes with all the class features in exchange for splitting your XP between the two classes. I think this can be done in 3.5 as well. For example, a ritual or a feat that gives you LA and in exchange you get to become a gestalt character.

Pedantic: This was 2e multiclassing (available to non-humans...with only some combinations available, based on race). Dual classing was a thing humans (only) could do, where you restarted your progression as a second class, and once you passed the level of your first class, you regained all the abilities from your first class.
It was...needlessly complicated.

[Rebel7284]

Pedantic: This was 2e multiclassing (available to non-humans...with only some combinations available, based on race). Dual classing was a thing humans (only) could do, where you restarted your progression as a second class, and once you passed the level of your first class, you regained all the abilities from your first class.
It was...needlessly complicated.

Ah yes, thanks, it's been a while since I played Baldur's gate :smallsmile:

It occurs to me that there might also be a simpler solution than LA which is pretty awkward since the XP difference between levels grows at an uneven pace. I wonder if there are any issues/exploits about simply a feat that says "you gain half XP, but gestalt!"

[Maat Mons]

I'd do it the same way 5e does it.

Basically, imagine if there was only one spell progression table shared by all classes. And all spellcasting base classes just said "+1 level casting" in the Special column at some or all levels, like prestige classes do. With non of this nonsense about needing to have pre-existing spellcasting to advance. The first time you gain a level that says "+1 level casting," you gain 1st-level casting, whether you got it from a base class or a prestige class.

Also, every spell has psionics-style scaling. So if you're a Wizard 16 and you take Druid 1, you learn Summon Nature's Ally (no roman numeral), and you can cast it out of a 1st-level slot to summon an animal from the 1st-level list, or you can cast it out of one of your newly-acquired 9th-level slots to summon an animal off the 9th-level list.

And your spells known are separate for each class, but all still cast-able from the same pool of spell slots, because it's impossible to have separate pools of spell slots. Each class has its own limit on max spell level known, but they can all be augmented up to be level-appropriate, like psionic powers.

My description is a little of from how 5e actually is. But it's close enough to give you the idea.

[Darg]

I think a level adjustment + gestalt variation (both sides together would count as a single class so no separate class progressions) would probably work best with 3rd edition rules. You start with a LA +1 and gain an additional +1 every 3 levels. At ECL 20 you would be 15/15 which is where theurges end if you equally distribute levels. It would even be possible to add PrCs this way. Let's classify this multiclass concept as "theurging classes." When one theurges classes together you can only theurge 2 at once, are considered a single class for leveling purposes, and yet separate classes for the multiclass penalty excepting itself. The rule would prohibit theurging different PrCs together, but one could still take a theurge PrC. Using these rules when actually multiclassing, your total theurge levels determines when you get +LA. When Multiclassing with another theurge class combination, one half must always be a class from the previous level. Each half is considered it's own class for the purpose of feature progression when multiclassing with PrCs.

At level up you get the best between the two classes but only once. (fighter/wizard) would get full BAB, good fort and will saves, and the fighter's HD size. At level 2, if the character were to level only as a wizard, you wouldn't get the +2 to will saves because statistical increases would be as if you were a 2nd level wizard.

examples:

theurge (wizard/cleric) 9 / wizard 8 would be a 17th level wizard at ECL 20 (LA+3) and a 9th level cleric. Suffered Multiclass penalty because wizard and cleric are more than 1 level apart.
theurge (wizard/cleric) 5 / mystic theurge 10 would be a 15th level wizard at ECL 20 (LA+5) and 15th level cleric. No multiclass penalty.

Multiclass progression example:
1) theurge (wizard/cleric) LA +1
2) theurge (wizard/rogue)
3) theurge (rogue/cleric)
4) theurge (rogue/cleric) LA +2
5) theurge (rogue/cleric) multiclass xp penalty as you are now a rogue 4, cleric 4, wizard 2
6) wizard () no more xp penalty with wizard 3
7) fighter () xp penalty
8) fighter () xp penalty
9) fighter () no xp penalty
10) mystic theurge (wizard/cleric)
11) mystic theurge (wizard/cleric) LA +3 as your total theurge levels = 7


Thoughts? Questions? Blatantly obvious flaws that are right in front of the face, but I can't see? If 15/15 is too harsh then one can change it to +1 LA per 4 levels instead to end at 16/16.

[Rebel7284]

15/15 progression is definitely too harsh. Sure, Wizard 5/Cleric 5/MT 10 end up with 15/15, but also 5 more HD. We probably want a higher optimization floor here...

In addition, it's common wisdom that LA is more and more difficult to bear as you level since caster power increases exponentially. Getting more LA as you level doesn't seem like the best approach. I flat +2LA is perfectly fair in my eyes, but I can see +3 being justified too because class features.

[rel]

Maybe a variation on the Tome of battle Multiclassing mechanism.

[Rebel7284]

Maybe a variation on the Tome of battle Multiclassing mechanism.

That seems difficult to generalize.

[Bphill561]

I might be tempted to use Eldritch Master from Dragon Magazine #280. It gives:

Effective increase in caster level for spell variables based on caster level, not actual caster level or progression though. (Practiced spell caster goes nicely with this).

Level 3, 6, 9 a bonus metamagic feat

Level 3, 6, 9 a spell slot one level higher than you can currently cast

Level 4 and 8 access to spells from another classes spell list of choice

Bonus spells known based on a chart, plus more

If you would make entry not require arcane casting specifically, just have the class be 4 levels long, and make the spell slot one level higher "move up" to always be one level above your top spell level; I think that would work fine.

Most full casters will have 8th level spell access at 16th level, this would bump it to 9. You would have one set of spell slots and cast off one ability score, but two spell lists. Not as fancy as early entry tricks and less slots, but it would only take 4 levels allowing for another full caster PrC to fit in the build.

I am on my phone, so keeping it short. But that is the general idea.

[Rebel7284]

I have a thread about Eldritch Master.

The class could possibly could be used for inspiration, but outside of a couple of specific builds, spell boost is insufficient for real theurging and doesn't work for combining non-caster classes.

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?323862-Brainstorming-Eldrich-Master

[Darg]

15/15 progression is definitely too harsh. Sure, Wizard 5/Cleric 5/MT 10 end up with 15/15, but also 5 more HD. We probably want a higher optimization floor here...

In addition, it's common wisdom that LA is more and more difficult to bear as you level since caster power increases exponentially. Getting more LA as you level doesn't seem like the best approach. I flat +2LA is perfectly fair in my eyes, but I can see +3 being justified too because class features.

Keep in mind that LA +3 would still end up at double 9ths Which is what I was trying to avoid. Not to mention as you said, you get class features from 2 classes at nearly the same rate as 1 class. There is also the issue of inheriting the gestalt quality of keeping the best traits of both classes. A fighter/wizard 15/15 would have 15 BAB, 15d10 HD, 8th level spells, 8 fighter bonus feats, etc.

Don't forget, PrCs are explicitly allowed. This means you could take theurge (fighter/wizard) 2 / wizard 3 and access eldritch knight easier and with more class features for just the low cost of a measly LA +1.

The point is to dramatically increase the amount of class features over time at the cost of spellcasting potential. If there is no real cost, then there isn't much of a choice. Then again, if the cost is too high there isn't one either. Under regular circumstance a player's first level into mystic theurge (wizard/cleric) would be at 7th level as a 4th level caster and 4d4+3d8 HD. Under the new rules, the player would probably find mystic theurge completely lacking. Theurge 5 (wizard/cleric) gives casting as a 5th level, 5d8 HD, a wizard bonus feat, and cleric BAB. Plus, you start as a theurge from level 1.

I think the "maximize spell progression" mindset is really terrible for creating a fun game to enjoy. Unless it is something you enjoy that is. Even so, wizard 20 is always an option for people who want that.

[DMVerdandi]

So my ideal has elements of 2e Multiclassing, as well as pathfinder's variant multiclassing, and ideally it would be a pathfinder dominant Pf3.X revision of variant multiclassing that THEY have.



So, instead of pathfinders normal variant multiclassing and necessarily Gestalt, it will be a third way more inspired by advanced dungeons and dragons 2e, with the other two refining the idea.


I call it Totemic Multiclassing.

Alright, so basically, at level 1, a player character can choose the Totem multiclassing, and only at level 1.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Totemic Multiclassing/ Pathfinder 3.x

>Totemic Characters also known as *Totemists*, who take this option CANNOT gain levels in any other class outside of the classes they choose at level 1

>Characters MUST Advance using the Variant multiclassing feat advancement scale.

>Characters who choose this CANNOT gain prestige classes.

>Characters who choose this option take the best hit die and skill points between the classes, all proficiencies and class abilities are gained. if more than one class grants the same class ability, character takes the fastest advancing ability.

>Characters who choose this option cannot choose more than 2 full spellcasting classes





So how it works is when the player chooses this option, you can chose either 2-4 classes.

>If you choose 2 classes, only the rules above apply.

>If you chose 3 classes. You must choose slow character advancement

>If you chose 4 classes, you must reduce all ability scores by -1



Outside of the benefit of leveling up multiple classes, Totemic characters get one other benefit.

>ORIGIN: At level 1, choose a Bloodline[Bloodrager or sorcerer], Domain[Cleric or Druid], or Psychic discipline. Totemic character gets this and all benefits associated with it to include skills and bonus feats, and can cast any spells gained from it once per day as a spell like ability with the caster level being equal to character level.
Any variant to the bloodline, domain or discipline can be added at first level.


Characters who choose a bloodline cast all spells as arcane spells, characters who choose a domain cast all spells as divine spells, and characters who chose psychic disciplines cast all spells as psychic spells.
This can be altered as normal later by advancement such as feats, and class abilities/archetypes, and character options that alter the functionality of one class similarly alter all of the classes in the character.

Totemic characters cannot choose a separate bloodline, domain or discipline, and any class levels that grant the option they chose must have the original choice as their option, however they can advance seperately the other two options as normal. [A totemic character with the abyssal bloodline MUST choose the abyssal bloodline, but if character also chooses cleric, they are free to choose any domain as per the normal class options]

Use of crossblooded archetype is the only exception



--------------------------------------------


Pulling it all together, there still remains some semblance of usefulness with advancing as normal, and that is speed. You are still going to advance faster as a single class wizard than if you are a totemic character.

You have more feats from level advancement
You have more flexibility in picking up a random class, and can prestige class
You level up faster





And really that's why I like my method better than all the rest. Cost benefit analysis.
Gestalt costs NOTHING, and while lit, is a pure power up.
Variant multiclassing for what it gave you costs WAY too much
2e multiclassing is confusing and requires too much math, but the variety it gave was the best.

Totemic multiclassing gives you:
A unifying theme to build your character around, AND a unified spellcasting mechanic
Balance between someone generalizing vs someone specializing
Fair penalties to balance the extra options you get
The ability to play the type of character you want without being 1 dimensional. In fact, you are 2-4 dimensional.



If I want to build storm from the x-men, I need only pick the stormborn bloodline, and take perhaps
Cavalier//Fighter//Sorcerer//rogue[lol]

Boom. That's storm in a nutshell. I don't have to pick anything else.

Or Wolverine

Shapechanger
Bloodrager//Barbarian//Samurai//Ninja


Or Batman

Self Perfection Discipline
Investigator//Brawler//Vigilante//Ninja


or Alucard
Undead Domain
Gunslinger//Shifter//Slayer//antipaladin

or Alucard
Undead bloodline
Summoner//Swashbuckler//Occultist//

Or DIO BRANDO
Superiority discipline
Arcanist//Mesmerist//bloodrager//spiritualist

OR DIEGO BRANDO
Superiority discipline
Druid//Cavalier//Spiritualist//

And that's all just the classes without archetypes [cause I'm lazy].

With the time you could REALLY tune in all of these.
It's as complicated as you want to be, and if you just want a simple 2 class variation, you can. Maybe you just want to be a Magus with wizard casting. You can, and even at the 2 class totem, it's still more balanced to the base game than gestalt. Throw on arcane bloodline and that's it.




Post script.
If your table doesn't use XP to level up, but sessions, simply have said character always be one level behind.
If the party is level 20, they are 19, etc.

[rel]

That seems difficult to generalize.

Yeah, you couldn't generalise it. You would have to write a multiclassing rule for each power system; magic, psionics, binding and so forth.
still easier than a lot of other solutions.

Also, the Tome of Battle system is designed primarily to facilitate dipping. To facilitate psudo dualclassing you would need an expansion to the basic rule.

something like:
When you take a level in a power class you get <bonuses in line with the ToB multiclassing bonuses> based on existing HD.
If you take a level in a class and you have at least 1/X of your levels in that class (e.g. 1/3, 1/2, 1/4 depending on where you want the balance point to be) you get <larger bonus in line with what you want to see from a theurge>.

It might also be worth checking the 5e rules for multiclassing to look for ideas.

[Zaile]

I'd do it the same way 5e does it.

Basically, imagine if there was only one spell progression table shared by all classes. And all spellcasting base classes just said "+1 level casting" in the Special column at some or all levels, like prestige classes do. With non of this nonsense about needing to have pre-existing spellcasting to advance. The first time you gain a level that says "+1 level casting," you gain 1st-level casting, whether you got it from a base class or a prestige class.

Also, every spell has psionics-style scaling. So if you're a Wizard 16 and you take Druid 1, you learn Summon Nature's Ally (no roman numeral), and you can cast it out of a 1st-level slot to summon an animal from the 1st-level list, or you can cast it out of one of your newly-acquired 9th-level slots to summon an animal off the 9th-level list.

And your spells known are separate for each class, but all still cast-able from the same pool of spell slots, because it's impossible to have separate pools of spell slots. Each class has its own limit on max spell level known, but they can all be augmented up to be level-appropriate, like psionic powers.

My description is a little of from how 5e actually is. But it's close enough to give you the idea.

I was working on a variation of this for an upcoming 3.5 game where half the players have only ever played 5e. There is a LOT of multiclass caster work as there are something like 10 different spell progression for base classes and 3-6 unique prestige class progressions. It's a mess to sort out or simplify. The idea I had for unified progression was the Archivist or Sorcerer progression (as you would be 1-3 levels behind on spells already as multi-class). You get those slots and you can cast any spells you get from your class levels in any slot of level or above. You would get no benefit from upcasting, but could metamagic. Prepare rules are like 5e and spontaneous casters don't have to increase casting time. Spontaneous "sacrifice a prepared spell co cast a cure spell of equal level" is gone for cleric/druid since you don't lose prepared spells (still count as having it for PRCs/feats).

Caster level = 1 per bard, sorc, wizard, cleric, other full caster
1/2 = Paladin, Ranger, Hexblade, Duskblade

Here is the post for it (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?626463-Using-5e-Rules-in-3-5-New-Players). Spellcasting section is at the bottom.

[Nifft]

There was a thing in Unearthed Arcana called Magic Rating which kinda did this:

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/magicRating.htm

It wasn't perfect, but it's perhaps a decent starting point.



Caster level = 1 per bard, sorc, wizard, cleric, other full caster
1/2 = Paladin, Ranger, Hexblade, Duskblade

Given how caster level effects are tightly coupled to CR, it's my opinion that caster level should just equal character level, for all spells and spell-like effects.

Certainly you'd want to provide Paladin / Ranger / Hexblade / etc. fewer slots (and lower-level slots), but give them a fighting chance to have their spells penetrate SR & not get trivially dispelled.

[StSword]

Overhauling Multiclassing by Tipsy Tabby Publishing had an interesting system.

A feat tree that gives a player the benefits of a second class, culminating in having the full class features of the second class at -4 character level.

It was meant to replace normal multiclassing entirely, but I could see it being adapted for a "do it yourself theurge" situation.

[DMVerdandi]

Today I thought to refine my idea a little more, and decided instead of having as a complete sub-system overhaul, that making it a feat would be much more plausible and applicable, rather than being an option, having it as a feat makes it tied to a system which already exists as character options that modify each individual's capabilities



So


Totemic Multiclassing

You have an easy time learning and performing many different roles, but find it impossible to stray from the path you have already set for yourself and are destined for.


Prerequisite(s)

Character level 1; Must be chosen at character creation




Benefit(s)

When choosing your class, choose another.
Treat your HD as class level for both classes for the purpose of class abilities and proficiencies.
Both classes can choose archetypes or variant classes as normal. Any class abilities that alter the function of a class and overlap with another apply to both

[example, If one class changes the main ability score for class features, it changes it for both classes you choose. If you gain abilities like a witches' familiar, you can store any spell as a witch spell, or use any spell as a magus spell for their class abilities]

Take the highest average Hit Die,saves and skill ranks of each class.


Also choose between any bloodline, domain, or discipline.
Your character level is equal to the class level from which the choice came. Any spells granted from the choice use your character as class level and are cast as spell like abilities.
If taking a bloodline, all spells cast are cast as arcane spells spells.
If taking a domain, all spells cast are cast as divine spells, and if taking a discipline, all spells are cast as psychic spells. If a class is picked with access to domains, bloodlines, or disciplines, you it must be the same as your choice gained from this feat.





Taking this feat causes you to gain bonus feats every 4 character levels , instead of every second level.

You must also choose one ability score. That ability score must either remain at 8, or is reduced to 8, and can never be permanently raised. Raising it through any class ability of temporary duration does work, but afterwards it must return to 8.
Semi-permanent increases, such as through magic items do not work at all.


After taking this feat, you cannot use the normal multiclassing or variant multiclassing to gain levels in other classes.





Special

While selecting this feat, you can instead pick up to four classes[Ex. 1/1/1/1] to include in your totemic multiclass.

Each class you pick past the second must choose an additional ability score to permanently reduce to eight, with a 3 permanently reduced scores being the maximum total.

Also, only 2 of your classes can be full spellcasters.
If the option to have a 4 class totemic multiclass [Also known as a totem] is picked, one of your chosen classes must have no spellcasting ability whatsoever.