Decent 3.5e super-basic super-generic warrior-style build?

[47948201]

I wanna make a mundane that doesn't have fancy bells or whistles, doesn't need to rely on high-level maneuvers or ubercharge leap attacks or huge precision damage or any other super-specific class features, but just has straight-up good strength, speed, and durability.

Like, you know how a bugbear or an ogre can pick up any sort of weapon and hit stuff with it, and it's still threatening to a low-level party? And then if they make a well-timed grapple or trip, or ambush you, then that's even better, but it's not like they're completely ignoring half their combat potential if they don't. I want something like that, but built out to 20th level (LA+0 race)

Obviously I don't expect anything that can compete with highly-optimized builds, and of course some weapon setups are just better than others (who uses clubs if they're proficient with and have a warhammer available?), but how should I go about fitting this general "generalist mundane" concept, other than literally just taking 20 levels of the NPC Warrior class and some very basic PHB feats (which ones I don't even exactly know)?

[gijoemike]

The real issue is that as you go up in level fighters whether ranged or melee specialize. It starts early with weapon focus, then rapid shot, weapon spec, greater versions of all of that. Improved Grapple, combat expertise, improved sunder, imp trip. The game somewhat pigeonholes mundane types into a specific niche to remain even remotely competent.

So to remain a general fighter/melee type one would need to avoid the vast majority of those feats.

You mention ogre or orc. Are you wanting a monster race or are you wanting a normal pc race that can face smash?

[47948201]

Yeah I've noticed that's how the game wants you to progress, by specializing around a small number of weapons and/or techniques, which is probably why I'm defiantly sitting here like "ok but how about I don't"

Not necessarily going for a monster race, but I've noticed that some of them tend to be pretty "just have good modifiers to everything and maybe one or two pretty basic special moves, like Pounce, or Power Attack plus Gore". That sorta thing is hard to come by in LA+0 races, but I do wanna stick to LA+0 [EDIT: so it doesn't have to be a "normal PC", in that there are options other than elf and dwarf, even other creature types like monstrous humanoid and outsider, but actually being an ogre is definitely out] and just make the least-bad warrior I can.

[Roninblack]

A couple of good "generic" feats for your martial character are improved initiative and quick draw. It let's you start the fight faster and hopefully put an enemy caster on the defensive early.
I'll second the weapon focus stuff, if you're a good warrior you have a weapon you favor. Realistically there isn't a I'm great with everything I pick up, but fighter does the I'm good with everything I pick up and great with my favorite weapon!

[animewatcha]

Part of the problem is that the alot of the hitting itself is key'ed off of strength instead of dexterity. Bugbear/Ogre tends to be overqualified in the strength department.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Find ways to add +Str to everything (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?125732-3-x-X-stat-to-Y-bonus), then boost both Str and size as much as possible, and wield a reach weapon capable of disarming and tripping. Then milk that size, reach, and Str for all it's worth. The Improved X feats (aside from Trip) are almost completely obviated if smaller, weaker enemies can't resist anyway, and AoOs don't matter if nobody can reach you.

[Particle_Man]

To be clear do you want: a) the fighter that takes feats that just add more pluses to things so you don’t have to remember to activate the feats, b) a Barbarian that just goes into rage and hits things, or c) some prestige class like war hulk that is a big strong guy (you need to be large to take that prestige class though), or d) something else (and if so, what?).

There is also the horizon tripper build, and maybe something can be done with racial paragons like half-orc 3/orc 3/Barbarian?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Start out Fighter 9, with the Dungeoncrasher ACF and Zhentarim Soldier (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) substitution levels and Dead Levels (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a) features. Reflavor Zhentarim Soldier to a generic bully if necessary. Combat Reflexes and Power Attack should be your first feats. Take the Quick trait (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm#quick) for +10 ft. speed, take Improved Toughness to make up the hp loss if you think you'll need it. Take two flaws (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) (more here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?258440-The-quot-Best-quot-Flaws#30)) to start with two extra feats. When you get some in-game down time spend some gold to say you visited the Otyugh Hole in CS to get Iron Will without spending a feat on it (and again for Menacing Demeanor if you qualify). Don't waste your time on Cleave, instead get Improved Bull Rush, Combat Expertise, and Improved Trip, more on that later.

You'll need to be large size, whether from race or hire an NPC spellcaster (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#spell) for Permanency (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/permanency.htm) and Enlarge Person (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/enlargePerson.htm), get both at a caster level of 20th for a higher dispel DC. A custom item that grants a continuous effect of Enlarge Person could also work if your DM allows custom items and you fear getting dispelled, plus that allows you to get medium gear then equip the item to make it large with you.

Get the feat Knock Back in RoS, when you knock opponents into a solid obstacle like a wall you'll deal dungeoncrasher damage to them as well. Knock-Down (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown) is also highly recommended. Take the feat Imperious Command in DotU, and the Never Outnumbered skill trick in CS. That combines well with your swift action intimidate checks from Zhentarim Soldier, you can keep an enemy cowering the entire fight and once per encounter make every opponent within ten feet cower for one round and be shaken on the round after.

After Fighter 9 or 10 start taking War Hulk in MH. That doesn't improve your BAB, but those iterative attacks rarely hit anyway. Instead it grants +2 Str per level, and allows you to hit multiple opponents every time you attack, including opportunity attacks. Eventually every attack you make will hit every opponent that's in your reach. Sweep everyone into a corner and dungeoncrash them against the wall. If someone tries to get up your opportunity attack hits everyone and dungeoncrashes them again. If you prefer you can skip the intimidate stuff and go Fighter 6/ War Hulk.

Your primary weapon could be something exotic like a spiked chain, or a greathorn minotaur greathammer in MMIV p101, or whatever else you want to swing. Make it a magic weapon and eventually put Wrathful Healing on it from the book Enemies and Allies, it costs a +3 and heals you for 50% of the total damage you deal on every attack. Otherwise just be sure you have all the Necessary Magic Item (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items) effects covered, and remember that you can put flat bonuses on other items of the appropriate slot for the same price as a standalone item of that same bonus per MIC p234. So instead of Bracers of Strength get Armbands of Might in MIC with an enhancement bonus to Str (and Dex) added on.

[47948201]

Closest to A. It doesn't have to be a fighter, but basically I don't want to have to activate features or feats, I just want big numbers. I don't just want the big numbers in one place, though, I want them in unarmed, sword+board, two-handed, dual-wielding, thrown, and launched weapons to a roughly even degree.

Barbarian honestly gets close, with just one feature to activate to gain big numbers that apply to melee and thrown weapons as well as tanking, but I dislike the "x/encounter" and "x/day" sort of limits it has, and it does heavily favor a brawling playstyle while giving relatively little to things like archery (full BAB and strength for composite bows is great, but compared to how hugely melee abilities get buffed by rage, yeah)

EDIT: War hulk actually looks amazing. The rock-throwing things are a bit specific for my tastes (though I do appreciate that they're trying to give it a beefy-feeling ranged option), and I'm not a fan of the feature that kills all your mental skills, but the huge strength bonuses and features that are literally just "attack, but you attack a bunch of dudes at once" are pretty cool, and you can still get two attacks out of a full attack to focus some damage if there's only one enemy.

The build that involves intimidation to give debuffs and dungeoncrashing dudes to sweep them more effectively certainly sounds powerful, but generally it sounds like a bit too specific of a tactic for my tastes. Other stuff there are good suggestions, though.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The dungeoncrashing stuff works off the feat knock-back, which automatically triggers a free bull rush every time you hit with a regular attack when you're power attacking. So it's still just attack stuff, but the attacks knock them so hard that they splatter against the wall. Knock-down works the same way, you just attack stuff and you hit them so hard it knocks them to the ground. Ideally you'll knock everyone to the same place and get them stuck being pummeled against the wall, but you don't necessarily need to do it that way.

The intimidate stuff is optional, but still worthwhile as it doesn't cost you anything in combat. It's a swift action, so you still get to full attack, and you didn't have anything to spend your swift action on anyway. The ACFs to get it cost you nothing but a tiny bit of backstory effort. You were probably going to put those skill ranks in intimidate anyway. The only thing it really costs you is the feat on Imperious Command, and the Cha requirement for it isn't doable with point buy or poor rolls. Again, just skip that part if you want and go Fighter 6/ War Hulk.

[Particle_Man]

Well that much versatility requires feats so fighter it is. I would recommend half-orc for the race. Strong and simple and has darkvision. For feats? Well you will have 18 of them. Core feats you might look at: iron will, lightning reflexes, great fortitude (these cannot be from the bonus combat feats from the fighter class). Combat reflexes. Improved Initiative. Improved Unarmed Strike. Improved Grapple. Point Blank Shot. Far Shot. Precise Shot. Two Weapon Fighting. Two Weapon Defense. Improved Shield Bash. Quick Draw. Improved Precise Shot. Improved Two-weapon fighting. Greater Two-Weapon Fighting. Power Attack (this one does require calculations but is very useful for two handed weapon attacks). So that is 18 feats in various areas. You will need high dex and high str and of course con never hurts and wisdom isn’t bad. You can safely dump int and chr.

Hope that helps!

[47948201]

Oh yeah, I didn't actually look into the Knockback feat, but that makes it sound like it all works... Amazingly well, actually, and with a perfectly acceptable level of flavor. The skill stuff still makes me sad, but that's honestly not the worst thing to find bonuses for when everything else fits together like that. Just for the sake of knowing my options, though, since (even though I know they're so so much better for mundanes) I'm not too huge on Large characters (or even "large characters" like goliaths), and although PrC levels (according to more people than not, it seems) stick around even if the Large size you qualified with gets dispelled, I don't really see any other way for, like, a human (just as an example) to use the Knockback feat while they're Medium-sized?

Just taking a feat or two from every type of fighting style is also an option, though! I wonder what sorts of non-core feats could fill in some of these things that fill in what seem to be some of the weaker feats here (there are a lot of TWF feats in core so many are included here, even though +1 to AC while TWFing is... Cool, but probably not the strongest)

[smasher0404]

If the goal is simply high combat stats, without any specialization, the result is going to be fairly weak at best. The game simply isn't designed around generalist melee fighters. Even competent monstrous brutes (like Orcs and Bugbears) try to specialize in something (even if it is just hitting something with a big stick). But, if I had to try and come up with something:

Be an Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale (Savage Species pg 217), which is LA +0 (to technically fit your spec), but comes with 3 RHD (which since Class Features tends to specialize you, you don't really need too many levels). Main benefits are Large Size (to give reach, qualifications for War Hulk), Good Ability Mods (a juicy +8 to Strength to hit well, +4 to Con for Fort and HP, +4 to Dex for Initiative and Reflex, and +4 to Wis for perception and will saves), and a large amount of Natural Armor. (roughly equivalent to already wearing a full plate, plus you can still wear armor over it). It also arguably gets blindsight (I personally believe it does, but I have had DMs rule against it), which is amazing for detecting hidden enemies.

Large Size gives you bonuses to most combat manuevers (Trip, Grapple, Bull Rush, Overrun, etc.) and reach to allow you to initiate some of these with AoO against medium creatures. It also increases weapon die sizes, making every weapon deal more damage. While you are not stealthy, your stat bonuses over come the -1 to AC and Attack rolls.

Pick up a pair of Strongarm Bracers (Magic Item Compendium) at your earliest convenience to wield weapons of up to Huge size (which further increases damage levels for all of your non-natural weapons). If you are forcing yourself to be medium, it is still a generic damage increase.

Take Weapon Focus(any Weapon), and a single level of Warblade (Tome of Battle) as your 9th HD. Weapon Aptitude (Warblade's first level feat) allows you to change which Weapon your Weapon Focus targets with 1 hour of practice in the morning. To get around Warblade actively giving you some form of specialization in combat, you take Action Before Thought, Mind Over Body, and Moment of Perfect Mind (all of which do not make you better at fighting, but allow you to replace a saving throw with your concentration check). You need to take your Warblade level at 9 or later in order to get Mind over Body (which is a third level maneuver) over something that makes you specialize.

With Weapon Aptitude from Warblade, you can safely take the weapon specialization feats to boost your numbers (since you can swap them out with Weapon Aptitiude). That means you can grab any feat that requires you to pick a specific weapon (such as Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, and Improved Critical).

You'll also want to take Combat Expertise, Disciple of Darkness, and Power Attack. None of these forces you to specialize in a specific weapon to gain a benefit (Power Attack technically applies to Melee weapons only, but you are not forced to use it). That, plus an evil alignment, qualifies you for Disciple of Dispater (Book of Vile Darkness). The class is full BAB and has all good saves. The features of particular interest to you are Iron Hews and Iron Power. Iron Hews (and the later feature Greater Iron Hews) grants a flat divine bonus to Attack and Damage for a number of non-consecutive rounds equal to your Constitution modifier (which you can pump without specializing in a combat style). Iron Power grants a permanent insight bonus to Attack and Damage, and expands your Critical Range (which explicitly stacks with Improved Critical), but only applies to iron and steel weapons (which are most of them). (Technically these are class features, but I'm hoping these are generic enough to not be "super-specific class features")

The rest of the class is mostly Spell-like Abilities, but none of them actually specialize towards a specific combat style (summons, and defensive buffs 1/day).

Gear Wise, you'll want to pick up 3 weapons with the Morphic enchantment (Underdark): one light, one one-handed, and one two-handed. That'll cut down on gear costs, as they can change into any weapon of the same category.

[noob]

I believe there was a warforged that only used a manoeuvrer to substitute concentration to attack rolls(to have extra reliable attacks) and got as many immunities as possible and was super tough.

[47948201]

Oh gosh, I haven't looked into all those features yet but I didn't know SS had an anthropomorphic animals table, the baleen whale is so dumb but so good (I don't think I've ever seen something with that many HDs while keeping an explicit +0 LA, apart from like the huge viper a couple spaces above it)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

There's the feat Jotunbrud in Races of Faerun, it basically gives a human powerful build. With the right DM it could be substituted for large size to qualify for those things.

[Zaq]

How do you feel about a magic-user (probably a cleric) who loads up on all-day buffs in the morning and then doesn't bother casting anything during the day, just making generic basic attacks whenever combat happens to come up? That's probably the most robust way to get big numbers but keep things simple once initiative is rolled.

Alternatively, if you actually like the design on ogres/stone giants/etc., there are rules for playing such pile-o'-meat monsters in Savage Species.

[47948201]

Interesting feat, definitely worth considering! I'm not sure I'd rule it that way if I were DMing, but it's something.

I've considered something similar to the cleric idea. Dragons tend to have some terrible level adjustments, but a while back I was looking into finding a strong one, loading up on sorcerous gishy classes to get spell slots and BAB, then persisting strength of the true form. I ultimately decided I'd prefer something that has its powers always-on, though.

Honestly, I know this is also at odds with how the game designers seemed to imagine things, but it's not like I have any special attachment to ogres or ogre-like races--it was just an example of something that exists primarily as a straightforward pile of stats. If anything, I'd prefer a normal-sized elf or even something like a halfling who has exceptional strength and skill for their size. But that's entirely personal preference, I figured I'd get some interesting ideas by not disallowing Large-or-larger races in the OP (and I sure did!)

[H_H_F_F]

How would you feel about a 1 or 2 level dip in warblade at some point? You could only get counters, which to me feel less "initiat-y" and more natural than boosts and strikes, and you could get yourself a stance or 2, which is an all day thing. That would also allow you to take feats for specific weapons and switch them up day to day.

Put that on top of a fighter/barbarian and you've got the basis for "generic fighting man". An alternate option for a less brute-y feel is taking 2-4 levels of monk, fighter levels, and maybe 4 levels of thief acrobat (from cadv).

[liquidformat]

If you don't want to go ubercharger or Initiator I think the best option is going with a tripper and maybe adding disarm into the mix for good measure. Just going barbarian 2 (lion spirit totem for pounce, wolf totem for improved trip)/ Fighter 4 to 6 (Zhentarim Soldier) variant is pretty powerful wit the right feat choices. Go Human here are a list of feats to look at Hidden Talent (Expansion)[needs to be taken level 1], Wolf Berzerker [should be taken at level 1], Knockdown, Intimidating rage, Never Outnumbered (skilltrick), Combat Reflexes, Imperious Command, Extra Rage. If you pickup endurance, Steadfast Determination, power attack, cleave, and destructive rage then Frenzied Berserker is a great prc, endurance and steadfast determination are great in general and with power attack you can dip bear warrior.

I personally really like going Barbarian 3(Bear Totem & City Brawler)/Ranger 5 (Wild shape and maybe Champion of the Wild, Arcane Hunter, and urban companion or Distracting Attack to replace animal companion)/Fist of the Forest 2/Primeval 10 (I like Dire Puma or Dire Lion the most but there are other good options) You are focused around natural attacks and will have stupid high AC due to your alternate for and FotF you are also a judo chopping lion which is hilarious. It makes a really nice natural attack blender.

I am also a fan of Barbarian/Fighter/Warmind but that might be going to far out of what you are looking for. You could also look at something like Barbarian/Fighter/Fist of The Forest/Frostrager one fun thing with that build is taking Frozen and Blazing Berserker to be immune to cold and fire damage which is always amusing.

If you want something more unique you could look at going Raptoran Barbarian 2(lion spirit totem for pounce, wolf totem for improved trip)/ Raptoran Fighter 8 (gives some nice flight benefits)/Stormtalon 10 besides taking knockdown feat focus your feats around flying and you can really go crazy flying around the battlefield dive bombing everyone and knocking them on their butts.

[47948201]

Honestly I very rarely go without taking a level or two in Warblade just for those defensive maneuvers. Weapon aptitude sadly doesn't let you just, like, disarm a minotaur and start using its suped-up weapon against it any better, but I guess it is sounding like one of the closest-to-generalist approaches that's generally available.

Trip build is too reliant on a single tactic for me--even if it's a good tactic and one that few enemies really don't care about, it's just a bit much. That said, there are some good barbarian combinations in there!

[smasher0404]

Honestly I very rarely go without taking a level or two in Warblade just for those defensive maneuvers. Weapon aptitude sadly doesn't let you just, like, disarm a minotaur and start using its suped-up weapon against it any better, but I guess it is sounding like one of the closest-to-generalist approaches that's generally available.

Trip build is too reliant on a single tactic for me--even if it's a good tactic and one that few enemies really don't care about, it's just a bit much. That said, there are some good barbarian combinations in there!

The big issue is that characters are designed to specialize into a niche of some sort, especially Martial characters. Monstrous Brutes (like the Ogre, Bugbear, and Giants) can be sort-of threatening at their CRs because they have higher stat lines than the expected equivalent Fighter AND more HD than their CR. The Bugbear is going to be physically stronger on average compared to the expected core 2nd level Fighter (+4 Strength vs +2 from Half-Orc), and has more bulk (3d8 (Expected Value: 13.5) vs 2d10 (Expected Value 11)) before accounting for the Bugbears on average higher constitution modifier (+2 Con matching the Dwarf) that is applied more often than the Fighter's.

The HD/Statline vs CR gets more exaggerated the higher up you go (and thus the more specialized the expected PC is supposed to be). Hill Giants have almost twice as many HD compared to its CR, Large Size (so +4 on most combat maneuvers compared to the expected Medium Fighter), and just a free Full-Plate's worth of Natural armor in addition to its normal AC.

Notably, the system recognizes this within its own guidelines. Adding associated class levels that improve a monster's core niche (such as Barbarian levels on a Giant) adds more to their CR than adding non-associated class levels that add abilities that don't directly help its niche (such as adding Wizard levels to a Giant).