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View Full Version : Optimization Overlooked examples of optimization. RAW and RAI compliant.



redking
2021-02-16, 03:57 AM
Psionic Runecaster

Inscribe Rune + Runecaster Prestige Class + Chameleon Crafting + psion.

Everything in this Runecaster handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?296106-Runeblaster-A-Handbook-for-the-D-amp-D-3-5-Runecaster) is possible, AND you can make psionic runes via chameleon crafting.

Nar Demonbinder

I don't think this has been noticed before. Check out the Iron Sign ability from Nar Demonbinder. This has never been dealt with in a Nar Demonbinder handbook before.


Iron Sign: On reaching 2nd level, a Nar demonbinder learns how to fashion a special token known as an iron sign. Creating the token requires three days and 1,000 gp in magical materials. The iron sign is the size of a large amulet. The demonbinder can use it in one of two ways.

Calling Diagram: The iron sign functions as a calling diagram (see Conjuration under Schools of Magic in Chapter 10, Magic of the Player's Handbook) that combines a magic circle with dimensional anchor. The demonbinder need only set the token on a suitable surface, and no Spellcraft check is necessary to scribe the diagram. A creature held by the iron sign must remain within 5 feet of it and otherwise behaves as if it were completely enclosed in a suitably sized calling diagram.

The iron sign can hold a called creature for up to one day per caster level of the character who crafted it. Unlike a normal calling diagram, the iron sign cannot be disturbed unless something physically removes the token from the spot where it was placed (naturally, the called creature cannot disturb the token either directly or indirectly).

Demon Trap: As a full-round action, the demonbinder can set the token on a suitable surface and try to compel a free outsider within 30 feet of the token into its effective calling diagram (Will save negates, DC 10 + Nar demonbinder level + Nar demonbinder's Charisma modifier). The subject is entitled to spell resistance. If the creature fails its saving throw, it is transported to a square of its choice within 5 feet of the iron sign, and trapped just as if the demonbinder had conjured it into a calling diagram.

When a trapped creature leaves the iron sign (because it was freed by the demonbinder, escaped on its own, or the duration of the calling diagram lapsed), the token crumbles into powder and is destroyed.

Now Magic Circle against Evil (http://"http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicCircleAgainstEvil.htm") -


A magic circle leaves much to be desired as a trap. If the circle of powdered silver laid down in the process of spellcasting is broken, the effect immediately ends. The trapped creature can do nothing that disturbs the circle, directly or indirectly, but other creatures can. If the called creature has spell resistance, it can test the trap once a day. If you fail to overcome its spell resistance, the creature breaks free, destroying the circle. A creature capable of any form of dimensional travel (astral projection, blink, dimension door, etherealness, gate, plane shift, shadow walk, teleport, and similar abilities) can simply leave the circle through that means. You can prevent the creature’s extradimensional escape by casting a dimensional anchor spell on it, but you must cast the spell before the creature acts. If you are successful, the anchor effect lasts as long as the magic circle does. The creature cannot reach across the magic circle, but its ranged attacks (ranged weapons, spells, magical abilities, and the like) can. The creature can attack any target it can reach with its ranged attacks except for the circle itself.

You can add a special diagram (a two-dimensional bounded figure with no gaps along its circumference, augmented with various magical sigils) to make the magic circle more secure. Drawing the diagram by hand takes 10 minutes and requires a DC 20 Spellcraft check. You do not know the result of this check. If the check fails, the diagram is ineffective. You can take 10 when drawing the diagram if you are under no particular time pressure to complete the task. This task also takes 10 full minutes. If time is no factor at all, and you devote 3 hours and 20 minutes to the task, you can take 20.

A successful diagram allows you to cast a dimensional anchor spell on the magic circle during the round before casting any summoning spell. The anchor holds any called creatures in the magic circle for 24 hours per caster level. A creature cannot use its spell resistance against a magic circle prepared with a diagram, and none of its abilities or attacks can cross the diagram. If the creature tries a Charisma check to break free of the trap (see the lesser planar binding spell), the DC increases by 5. The creature is immediately released if anything disturbs the diagram—even a straw laid across it. However, the creature itself cannot disturb the diagram either directly or indirectly, as noted above.

Now here is the incredible part of this ability. The Iron Sign abrogrates the need for the physical circle surrounding the trapped creature - its bound by the Iron Sign. Normally you could cast some spells at the trapped outsider, but its generally accepted that anything that physically crosses the magic cirle breaks the circle, freeing the outsider. From DMDM's Guide to Planar Binding (http://"https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qqbb?DMDMs-Guide-to-Planar-Binding") -


Debuffing your target. A much-discussed question is whether you can cast debuffs on the target creature in order to make it more amenable to your demands. If you accept the "binding happens/fails as soon as the creature appears" rule, you can't cast debuffs for that first check unless you have some sort of area debuff up and running ten minutes in advance. However, if you fail that first check, can you cast debuffs on the creature for the second check, 24 hours later? Well, there's no question that you can cast one spell -- Agonize, which is specifically designed for the purpose of convincing unruly outsiders to cooperate. Otherwise, though, can you cast Enervation? Dominate? A question to James Jacobs provided the following answer: "You can cast any spell you want at the outsider in the circle, but those that create physical effects that cross the circle would let the monster out. What entails 'breaking the circle' is left to the GM, but you could certainly argue that the beam of black energy from a ray like enervation counts, or even the faint mist produced by mind fog."

FWIW, here's my personal interpretation: spells that involve energy, that do damage, or that create any sort of physical area affect will break the circle. Spells that produce purely mental effects (like Dominate) or that produce effects on the target without a ray or any other connection to the target (like Baleful Polymorph) will not break the circle. If you're planning to go this route, try to get a ruling from your DM first.

The Iron Sign means that you are free to use rays, mists, spectral hand to deliver touch spells, or even enervation to debuff the trapped outsider. Iron Sign is a 1st tier planar binding ability. Normally you are restricted in the kinds of debuffs that you can use on a captive outsider. Now you can use whatever debuffs you have at hand to ensure that your negotiation always goes your way.

Thrall of Fraz-Urb'luu

The Thrall of Fraz-Urb'luu from Dragon Magazine #333 has a remarkable ability. People have often commented on its capstone ability, Alter Reality before, and it's good, but the 5th level ability Staff Mastery, is even better.


Staff Mastery (Ex): Upon reaching 5th level, you have mastered the use of magic staffs in emulation of your demonic master's skill with these potent magic items. You can now wield any magic staff, as if it were a +1 greatclub, at no risk of causing the staff itself damage. In addition, the staff is treated as an evil weapon for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction. You are considered to be proficient with the staff for this purpose.

You can use any magic staff as if its spells were on your spell list. Additionally, you may opt to activate a staff using your own lifeforce rather than expending charges. For each charge that the staff activation would normally consume, you instead take 1 point of Constitution damage. If you don't have a Constitution score, or are for some reason immune to ability score damage, you cannot power a staff with this ability and must use the staffs charges to manifest its spells.

Take a level of binder to bind Naberius to get Faster Ability Healing to heal your constitution damage, and you have unlimited ability to expend charges from staffs.

Where the real power is shown is when the staff contains a spell that normally requires XP expenditure. Staff of true creation? Staff of simulacrum? Staff of whatever you want now that you are a virtual god?

You can enter at 7th level at the earliest, and must be chaotic evil (perhaps your your DM will allow you a different alignment adaption). Whether the DM will throw the players handbook at you for deploying this PrC is another matter altogether.

The Black Egg

The Black Egg from Dungeon Magazine 106. Get your own half fiend 19 HD red dragon servitors for the relatively trivial cost of risking a curse for not feeding dragon souls to the egg. This is feeding dragon type creatures, so you don't need to go out and actually kill full sized dragons, they can be draconians from the Dragonlance setting, so other creatures with the dragon type. Probably the best artifact in the game.

[https://i.ibb.co/tPfHs19/3b86c16861015f04f88d0e7dc9e0e0001355f4e9.png (https://ibb.co/prD1zkS)
https://i.ibb.co/2qTSdfq/05e4f51bf0dc4ef10d1b4bcc9f8eb373b79bce7a.png (https://ibb.co/5TPkLfT)

Dragonlance

Towers of High Sorcery, Dragonlance 3.5, p.52.

https://i.ibb.co/crq3p3k/3254fb00c601682d2ac4d730d9123a27cd77ca3c.png (https://ibb.co/5RZ4z4G)

You can draw people (in the form of simulacrums, according to how they are remembered), and even half powered magical items. There is huge potential there. Combine with programmed amnesia for profit.

redking
2021-02-17, 10:17 PM
Can I get any comments on whether people think these examples actually work? I'd like to hear objections, if any. Or expansions along the same theme.

newguydude1
2021-02-17, 10:32 PM
its generally accepted that anything that physically crosses the magic cirle breaks the circle, freeing the outsider.

no its not. a straw must lay on top of the circle to break it. as in if its hovering above it it wont break the circle. so saying like how anything crossing the circle breaks the circle is just some guy who hates planar binding so much hes just making stuff up to try and nerf it without calling it a house rule. ive been to many tables with planar binding and my current dm is raw or die and absolutely no one "accepted" casting a magic missile across the circle is gonna break it. the worst i saw is that magic circle protects the creature inside but thats, once again, some guy who hates planar binding so much hes just making stuff up.

iron sign costs money. its designed solely to capture outsiders in combat, not out of combat. this is a virtually worthless ability so its ignored.

the real planar binding optimization comes from getting access to surge of fortune for 100% planar binding success rate, or a way to get geas/quest on the creature without them thwarting it by plugging their ears like using it as a standard action somehow so they dont have the time to react to it, and then use said geas/quest to force them to accept the binding (aka voluntarily fail the charisma check). suggestion works to. but any language dependent spell is thwarted by blocking your ears so any real planar binder will go wyrm wizard or recaster to get surge of fortune on them.

smasher0404
2021-02-17, 11:24 PM
Regarding Staff Mastery:
I'm not sure if you've considered opportunity cost of taking the class levels and 2-3 feats required to pull this trick off. You'd need to dip into Binder, and lose 2 spellcasting levels to the Thrall class, 2 feats to enter the class, and a 3rd feat for Craft Staff if you are looking to actually abuse the ability.

That blocks you off from 9th level spells until level 20 (assuming you are a Prepared Caster), burns through a good chunk of your feats, and that's not beginning to consider the fact that neither Disguise nor Forgery are class skills for Wizard/Binder which means that either you are investing another feat to get it as a class skill (of which you are already burning 3), you are taking another class level in something else to get it as a class skill, or you are a Beguiler (the latter two of which cuts off access to 9th level spells entirely, and will put you a full 2 spell levels behind a full prepared caster).

In exchange you can bypass the experience costs of expensive spells by crafting/finding(aka via DM permission) a staff of it first. If the DM isn't providing XP Component Spells in Staffs, you are crafting them with Craft Staff which requires expending XP equal to the number of castings you'd normally be able to cast it from the staff to begin with (number of charges/charges needed to cast). If you are doing 1 charge per use (which is required to be able to spam it every round), you are expending XP upfront for 50 castings of the spell. It also takes a number of days normally to craft such an item, which chews into downtime that can be used to either adventure more or craft other more universal items.

This gets cheaper with the more charges you require to cast the spell, but that takes a larger toll on your ability to spam the spell to begin with (since you are paying more Con up front).

Regarding The Black Egg:

First, the Black Egg is a Major Artifact. That means by RAW, there is no way to craft it, and it has no Market Price to purchase it (although the DM may have it come up at market at their discretion). In order to operate the Black Egg, you either need to be able to reliably cast 9th level spells to cast Soul Bind (so typically ECL 17 or Higher), or get your hands on a separate specific Minor Artifact that is designed specifically for the task.

The Egg is also notably destroyable, which is an exception to the normally indestructible nature of Major Artifacts. So if you abuse the artifact, it is highly likely that in addition to the normal adventurers setting out to stop you, there will be people attempting to destroy the Egg. It can also compel the owner into following its own will (both through being an Intelligent Item and through a DC 30 Will Save to avoid wanting to wreak havoc with the Egg), while the Will Save is not difficult for a higher level character, 1/20 times it will succeed in taking control.

It is notably also intelligent and capable of casting Disintegrate on the person touching it (while the description notes that it will attempt it on creatures with 9 or less HD trying to take ownership, the ability is not actually restricted to that range).

Saintheart
2021-02-18, 12:18 AM
Psionic Runecaster

Inscribe Rune + Runecaster Prestige Class + Chameleon Crafting + psion.

Everything in this Runecaster handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?296106-Runeblaster-A-Handbook-for-the-D-amp-D-3-5-Runecaster) is possible, AND you can make psionic runes via chameleon crafting.



Can I get any comments on whether people think these examples actually work? I'd like to hear objections, if any. Or expansions along the same theme.


Don't get me wrong, I'll go for anything that helps enhance the versatility of my much-beloved runecasters, but I think there are some limitations on this thing.

The first thing is that I'm not sure how one makes psionic runes with this combination. A chameleon can mimic divine spellcasting and arguably therefore make runes, sure, but I don't know of any feature that allows you to turn manifestation of a psionic ability into a spell, much less a divine spell. The problem is not so much with runecaster, it's with Inscribe Rune and/or crafting runes themselves, which provides that the rune contains a divine spell prepared by the caster. You can get around the necessity for a divine spell via Alternative Source Spell or Southern Magician or something, but how is a psion able to turn their power into a spell and thus allow it to go into a rune?

Second thing to think about is the notional build. Runecaster requires the ability to cast 3rd level divine spells, and absent Dusk Giant-ish shenanigans you can't qualify for Chameleon before character level 5 - so that means you don't get to start down the path of Runecaster until level 8, i.e. Base Class 5/Chameleon 3/Runecaster rest of the way. Which is not fatal by any means, because Runecaster's break point is level 8 in the PrC anyway so you'll have four levels at the other end to play with, but you then also run into convincing the DM to allow your Chameleon casting to qualify for advancement of a divine spellcasting feature as the PrC requires. If it doesn't, you're stuck with 3rd-level spells in runes. If it does, you max out at 6th level spells I would think. Also, permanent and use-per-day runes won't be available until level 16, where for a more orthodox entry you'd be picking them up around level 13 or so.

What am I missing on the proposal? Happy to be convinced.

smasher0404
2021-02-18, 12:30 AM
Don't get me wrong, I'll go for anything that helps enhance the versatility of my much-beloved runecasters, but I think there are some limitations on this thing.

The first thing is that I'm not sure how one makes psionic runes with this combination. A chameleon can mimic divine spellcasting and arguably therefore make runes, sure, but I don't know of any feature that allows you to turn manifestation of a psionic ability into a spell, much less a divine spell. The problem is not so much with runecaster, it's with Inscribe Rune and/or crafting runes themselves, which provides that the rune contains a divine spell prepared by the caster. You can get around the necessity for a divine spell via Alternative Source Spell or Southern Magician or something, but how is a psion able to turn their power into a spell and thus allow it to go into a rune?

Second thing to think about is the notional build. Runecaster requires the ability to cast 3rd level divine spells, and absent Dusk Giant-ish shenanigans you can't qualify for Chameleon before character level 5 - so that means you don't get to start down the path of Runecaster until level 8. Which is not fatal by any means, because Runecaster's break point is level 8 in the PrC anyway, but you then also run into convincing the DM to allow your Chameleon casting to qualify for advancement of a divine spellcasting feature as the PrC requires. If it doesn't, you're stuck with 3rd-level spells in runes. If it does, you max out at 6th level spells I would think. Also, permanent and use-per-day runes won't be available until level 16, where for a more orthodox entry you'd be picking them up around level 13 or so.

What am I missing on the proposal? Happy to be convinced.

I think (I had to look this up myself) that Chameleon Crafting is a feat from Dragon Magazine that allows psionic powers to be subbed in for spells in Item Crafting.

Saintheart
2021-02-18, 01:35 AM
Ah hah. Now i get it. I'll go seek that out and see what it says. :)

EDIT: Okay, I've had a look at it.

And I think we now not only have a RAW way to get psionic powers into runes, we also have a way to neatly get around arcane spells not going into runes, given 'any spell you know' can be placed into a rune provided that you have this feat. Inscribe Rune is one of the prerequisites for the feat, being itself an feat. Good grief it's got wide application. It doesn't even contemplate the fact that Craft Magic Arms and Armor or Craft Staff are [Item Creation] feats themselves, how the heck does a Longsword +1 of [I]True Strike even work? It doesn't say how the mechanics work for the item, your DM would have to agree that the feat allows you to override normal limits (such as the fact Brew Potion normally doesn't let you have higher than 4th level spells in it). That said - this one's going into the Runecaster handbook.

About the only slight drawback I can see to the feat is along cost-minimisation lines. Since it's a separate [Item Creation] feat, something like Magical Artisan which gives discounts on magic item creation would have to apply to it and not to the stuff you're making via Inscribe Rune.

thethird
2021-02-18, 05:13 AM
Psionic Runecaster

Inscribe Rune + Runecaster Prestige Class + Chameleon Crafting + psion.

Everything in this Runecaster handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?296106-Runeblaster-A-Handbook-for-the-D-amp-D-3-5-Runecaster) is possible, AND you can make psionic runes via chameleon crafting.

Why psion? If I was doing this I would do it with the combined might of two characters.
-An Ardent Ur Priest Runecaster. (Runecaster progresses divine spellcasting, so you aren't going to get close to the high level powers with it)
-A psionic artificer. (A psionic artificer can craft any power stone, and yada yada spell to power erudites, with a power stone then we can craft any rune)


Nar Demonbinder

I don't think this has been noticed before. Check out the Iron Sign ability from Nar Demonbinder. This has never been dealt with in a Nar Demonbinder handbook before.

As much as I like Nar Demonbinder this seems based on a unnecessarily strict reading of magic circle. Which if you have a dm that is enforcing that reading he most likely wants to lowkey ban binding. Pulling a Nar Demonbinder and playing an arm's race in that kind of game... doesn't seem like a good idea.


Thrall of Fraz-Urb'luu

The Thrall of Fraz-Urb'luu from Dragon Magazine #333 has a remarkable ability. People have often commented on its capstone ability, Alter Reality before, and it's good, but the 5th level ability Staff Mastery, is even better.

This seems like a huge opportunity cost. There are several ways to bypass charge cost that require a smaller investment and are actually available to classes that will be able to use the staff better.
Wand Surge (+ Unfettered Heroism)
Channel Charge / Wand Bonding


The Black Egg

The Black Egg from Dungeon Magazine 106. Get your own half fiend 19 HD red dragon servitors for the relatively trivial cost of risking a curse for not feeding dragon souls to the egg. This is feeding dragon type creatures, so you don't need to go out and actually kill full sized dragons, they can be draconians from the Dragonlance setting, so other creatures with the dragon type. Probably the best artifact in the game.

Using an artifact hardly qualifies as optimization. That said I don't think it's probably the best artifact in the game. Suppose that I have become a god, and I can craft artifacts, would that artifact be my first go to? No.


Dragonlance

Towers of High Sorcery, Dragonlance 3.5, p.52.

You can draw people (in the form of simulacrums, according to how they are remembered), and even half powered magical items. There is huge potential there. Combine with programmed amnesia for profit.

Again using a spell hardly is optimization. It has very strong hints of DM please oversee this, so it can be problematic. You could get someone who saw an "artifact" but if he doesn't have a proper understanding of how it works it might not work in reality, a deck of many things could just be a fancy deck for example. You could use mindrape (why go with programmed amnesia over mindrape with this, am I missing something?) to give them fake memories. But you know what you get out of fake memories? Fake items?

redking
2021-02-18, 05:25 PM
About the only slight drawback I can see to the feat is along cost-minimisation lines. Since it's a separate [Item Creation] feat, something like Magical Artisan which gives discounts on magic item creation would have to apply to it and not to the stuff you're making via Inscribe Rune.

After looking at your handbook update, I need to clarify that I am talking about the Chameleon Crafting feat (not "Chameleon Casting") which appeared in Dragon Magazine #349. Although unconnected to the Chameleon PrC, using Chameleon PrC to pick up Chameleon Crafting as a floating feat saves you a feat if you are feat starved.


You can craft magic items that can duplicate psionic powers, or psionic items that duplicate magic powers.
Prerequisite: Any one item creation feat, ability to cast 1st-level spells, ability to manifest 1st-level powers.
Benefit: You can place any spell or a power that you know into any items you create. The item crafted determines if the effect is magical or psionic. For example, a psion/sorcerer with the Imprint Stone feat could create a psionic shocking grasp stone. Likewise, if the same character had the Brew Potion feat, she could create a magic potion of my light. The XP cost for an item created with this feat equals 1.5 times the item's standard XP cost.

Saintheart
2021-02-18, 07:33 PM
Noted - will fix :) Thanks for identifying the exploit in any event! :smallsmile:

thethird
2021-02-19, 07:21 AM
Looking further at chameleon crafting... Per the wording in the feat would it allow to craft a potion of disintegrate? Or if we keep going with the runes would it allow to put arcane spells into runes?

Saintheart
2021-02-19, 09:31 AM
Looking further at chameleon crafting... Per the wording in the feat would it allow to craft a potion of disintegrate? Or if we keep going with the runes would it allow to put arcane spells into runes?

By the RAW, yes to both. "Any spell you know" can go into an item the subject of another crafting feat the person has.

The simplest RAI to it would be that the spell has to otherwise comply with the rules of making the item - no spells above 3rd level for potions, no variable CLs for wands, etc - but the feat itself doesn't have any such restriction. The feat is just wide open on application and didn't contemplate or didn't care about the full implications of what it was saying.