Albions_Angel
2021-02-16, 05:51 AM
Some friends and I are playing Pathfinder 2e, and actually really enjoying it. They are all bored of 5e, but I cannot convince them to play 3.5e or P1. I have tried. A lot. And they have played a 2shot of P1. They just dont want to do it, which is a shame, but oh well. We are starting a 4e game soon (turns out, PCs automate a lot of what people hated about 4e), but we are also playing through the Extinction Curse and having a blast.
They all went fairly simple chars, so I thought I would try one of the "hybrids" and play a witch.
They are very weird. I know P2e has some fairly big issues, but witch seems very difficult to build correctly.
So, what is the witch in P2e?
Well, they get the following things:
A choice of patron, which gives them access to a free cantrip, and a "focus spell" (spells with their own resource that means you can effectively cast at least one, and eventually up to 3 per encounter) - the first of which is always the same. It also determines the spell school. Most patrons give access to the occult school, which is nice and thematic.
A familiar which is slightly better than other familiars, but familiars are fairly dull in P2e to start off.
A large number of learned cantrips (10), and the ability to prepare up to 5 of those a day (the free patron cantrip does not count to either of these limits).
A reasonable number of learned spells, with fairly easy ways to get more (consuming scrolls in a 1 hour ritual), but limited to a very small number of each level per day.
Witch feats to choose from every 2 levels or so - these fall into 3 catagories:
Lessons - you can only take 3 of these, a basic, a greater, and a major - each lesson gives you another focus spell themed around something
Melee combat - thematic claws and Bayonetta hair, but strange to have it on a spellcasting class with so little physical prowess
Other - an eclectic mix of crafting feats, familiar upgrades and strange spell enhancers that are rarely useful...
When it comes to the feats, you nearly always want to be taking the lessons as soon as you can. You can only take 3 lessons and each gives you a focus spell, which given the way P2e expects you to play, is basically a free per encounter power on a very spellslot starved class.
But picking the lessons is really hard, and very important. There are several at each "level" of the feat (5 basics, 3 greaters, and 3 majors) and there are clearly traps. I messed up, misread that you cant take the "basic lesson" feat multiple times, and took a fasthealing lesson as my first one because we had no healer. Now I am stuck with it, as the party has gained feats to heal whenever they want.
The other feats are... really weird. Because I didnt expect witch to be a front line fighter, my attributes have effectively locked me out of any of the melee feats. I could take them, but they would be pointless. On the other hand, I have next to no use for any of the other feats. I took the potion crafting one, but there is not a lot of downtime in Extinction Curse. Feats to widen or extend my spells are not all that helpful, as many are instantaneous single target spells.
Which brings me to my next point. The description of witch is basically "battlefield control" (which I wish I had read...). The thing is, most patrons give access to the occult spells, which have a lot of single target debuffs. Now a single target debuffer CAN do battlefield control. But not when they can only ever cast 3 spells of levels they have access to per day, yet there are typically 5+ encounters per day, each with multiple enemies.
So you would have to pick probably arcane or primal for AoE debuffs and area denial, of which there are far fewer patrons.
On the other hand, if you pick Baba Yaga (occult), you get a cantrip which, at level 3, starts to outscale the party, and other spells, for damage. Because it starts at 1d6 damage to a single target, and gains 2d6 damage for every spell level you know. Its basically sneak attack without the base damage. As a cantrip. With no requirement other than "hit".
I did make some bad spell choices, but even with hindsight, in the occult list, there was not a lot else I could take that would fulfil the role of BFC.
BUT
I think witch could work. If I did it again, I would not fall into the healbot trap (seriously, I think its the worst basic lesson), and I would pump dex as much as int, making the melee skills and standing near the front actually viable. I think witches actually stand to be quite nasty melee combatants. That would also enable Bane to actually be useful (which is set as a 5' burst effect centred on you, that you can make burst further every round after the first). By standing up front, Baba Yaga's cantrip becomes less useful, so you can try another patron, potentially one with better BFC spell access.
Long story short, I tried to make a Diablo 3 Myriam clone, but really, you want to be going for Bayonetta or Jenny Greenteeth.
I might retire her next session, as the party is very range heavy and thats... causing issues. Besides, I want to try the Swashbuckler.
Its got its flaws, but people should give P2e another try. Yes, the spells can seem limiting compared to hitting 3 times, but once you get into the way P2e WANTS you to play (never, ever being next to an enemy when they start their turn, for example - playing with the action economy) its actually a really fun system. Its just not D&D.
They all went fairly simple chars, so I thought I would try one of the "hybrids" and play a witch.
They are very weird. I know P2e has some fairly big issues, but witch seems very difficult to build correctly.
So, what is the witch in P2e?
Well, they get the following things:
A choice of patron, which gives them access to a free cantrip, and a "focus spell" (spells with their own resource that means you can effectively cast at least one, and eventually up to 3 per encounter) - the first of which is always the same. It also determines the spell school. Most patrons give access to the occult school, which is nice and thematic.
A familiar which is slightly better than other familiars, but familiars are fairly dull in P2e to start off.
A large number of learned cantrips (10), and the ability to prepare up to 5 of those a day (the free patron cantrip does not count to either of these limits).
A reasonable number of learned spells, with fairly easy ways to get more (consuming scrolls in a 1 hour ritual), but limited to a very small number of each level per day.
Witch feats to choose from every 2 levels or so - these fall into 3 catagories:
Lessons - you can only take 3 of these, a basic, a greater, and a major - each lesson gives you another focus spell themed around something
Melee combat - thematic claws and Bayonetta hair, but strange to have it on a spellcasting class with so little physical prowess
Other - an eclectic mix of crafting feats, familiar upgrades and strange spell enhancers that are rarely useful...
When it comes to the feats, you nearly always want to be taking the lessons as soon as you can. You can only take 3 lessons and each gives you a focus spell, which given the way P2e expects you to play, is basically a free per encounter power on a very spellslot starved class.
But picking the lessons is really hard, and very important. There are several at each "level" of the feat (5 basics, 3 greaters, and 3 majors) and there are clearly traps. I messed up, misread that you cant take the "basic lesson" feat multiple times, and took a fasthealing lesson as my first one because we had no healer. Now I am stuck with it, as the party has gained feats to heal whenever they want.
The other feats are... really weird. Because I didnt expect witch to be a front line fighter, my attributes have effectively locked me out of any of the melee feats. I could take them, but they would be pointless. On the other hand, I have next to no use for any of the other feats. I took the potion crafting one, but there is not a lot of downtime in Extinction Curse. Feats to widen or extend my spells are not all that helpful, as many are instantaneous single target spells.
Which brings me to my next point. The description of witch is basically "battlefield control" (which I wish I had read...). The thing is, most patrons give access to the occult spells, which have a lot of single target debuffs. Now a single target debuffer CAN do battlefield control. But not when they can only ever cast 3 spells of levels they have access to per day, yet there are typically 5+ encounters per day, each with multiple enemies.
So you would have to pick probably arcane or primal for AoE debuffs and area denial, of which there are far fewer patrons.
On the other hand, if you pick Baba Yaga (occult), you get a cantrip which, at level 3, starts to outscale the party, and other spells, for damage. Because it starts at 1d6 damage to a single target, and gains 2d6 damage for every spell level you know. Its basically sneak attack without the base damage. As a cantrip. With no requirement other than "hit".
I did make some bad spell choices, but even with hindsight, in the occult list, there was not a lot else I could take that would fulfil the role of BFC.
BUT
I think witch could work. If I did it again, I would not fall into the healbot trap (seriously, I think its the worst basic lesson), and I would pump dex as much as int, making the melee skills and standing near the front actually viable. I think witches actually stand to be quite nasty melee combatants. That would also enable Bane to actually be useful (which is set as a 5' burst effect centred on you, that you can make burst further every round after the first). By standing up front, Baba Yaga's cantrip becomes less useful, so you can try another patron, potentially one with better BFC spell access.
Long story short, I tried to make a Diablo 3 Myriam clone, but really, you want to be going for Bayonetta or Jenny Greenteeth.
I might retire her next session, as the party is very range heavy and thats... causing issues. Besides, I want to try the Swashbuckler.
Its got its flaws, but people should give P2e another try. Yes, the spells can seem limiting compared to hitting 3 times, but once you get into the way P2e WANTS you to play (never, ever being next to an enemy when they start their turn, for example - playing with the action economy) its actually a really fun system. Its just not D&D.