Bladesinger

[adb82]

Hello,
i finally decided to stay pure bladesinger and dont multiclass, but i have some reasons for dont consider him just a tank wizard, but also a good melee dpr (when he dont need cast powerfull concentration spells or he just dont want use hight lv slots).

Our Bladesinger at lv 11, with a ShadowBlade of 3rd lv (but he can upcast to 5th lv if he want) and BoomingBlade applying (and i found out that also Jeremy Crawford in practice allowed to do it, bcs seem this specification was born for other intent than nerf SB, i just dont get why there is still no errata, but you can find more details here: https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/1326925328267177984 anyway this work RAI for sure, i suppose also RAW, but im not sure) deal anyway something like: 15 (3d8 SB) + 40 (8d8 SB + BB) +10 (dex assuming he maximize it) = 65 (from lv 5 to 11 its 55 dpr) or 75 (and without suffer any -5 penalty to hit + having often advantage) if he upcast Sb to lv 5 and it should be possible especially getting contigency, as use it on other spells will leave free one slot for SB. If we dont have SB the output go down to a low 45 (50 if hasted, bcs in my opinion you cant use BB on the attack granted from haste, bcs while the BS can cast a cantrip sacrifing one of his attacks, the spell say that with that action you can make ONLY one weapon attack, and even BB is one weapon attack, its not ONLY one weapon attack) that is pretty awful . If i didnt miss anything (which is anyway possible and near to sure as its complicated cosider everything) the damage output in malee for BS is anyway kinda hight if he use a shadow blade (or spirit shroud) even without spend an hight lv spell slot with SB (3rd lv spell slot is already ok) he have same output of a zealot barb (without considering crits, but even critting the difference is kinda few if we talk about dpr), similar output with an Horizon Walker at range with shapeshooter and 3 attacks, its just below the paladin, the fighter and the hexblade (not so much below this last 2), but none of them is a full caster (except the Hexblade that count anyway on less powerful spells and less uses in the day, except your dm let you get many short rest per day).

This said, of course there are better DPR in malee (as i suppose better tanks, any martial with heavy armor and shield proficiency, maybe with 3 dip in bear totem barb should tank still more safely, a Paladin with all that auras and a shield do a great job too, a cleric with a shield and spirit guardian, and once get polimorph, if its really needed, any of my companion polimorphed tank better and with no risk), but this guy essentially is a wizard, when he have nothing else to cast or when he dont want to spend slots, he can SB with a 3rd lv slot and be a good enought dpr, i can be wrong but to my eyes seem better than use him as a tank waiting the first crit (that with blur active its true it will happen really few times, near to never) for eventually go down. So i writed this build not for tankines but for use him as a skermisher and "anticaster" when he is not busy keeping concentration on something else.

The stat are the same, assuming an hight elf (its not exactly an hight elf, but a homebrew race living on floating cities, similar with humans except for the blue skin, and for have a very low technology. But basically they have +2 dex +1 int as the hight elfs)

STR 8
DEX 16
CON 15
INT 16
WIS 10
CHA 8

im thinking to pick false life for stay alive after a crit, especially early lv.
Mage armor (later on a +1 leather, but this campaign will drop few magic items so i dont count on it), longstrider, grease.
Of course shield, absorb elements and find familiar
Mirror image till when it work decently + blink (50% chance to cant be even targetted)
unluckly ill kinda dump blur that is fantastic, for get more uses of shadow blade.
Counterspell and dispel are obvius pick.
Later on polimorph, wall of force,
contingency
and simulacrum.

Cantrips Booming blade, Green Flame Blade, shocking grasp.

I only mentioned the most important spells for the build and the concentration spells.

This said i think he gonna depend everyday from a short rest and arcane recovery.

The Asi's would be +2 dex, +2 int, resilient (con), +2 int, +2 dex.


This character will be playing from lv 4 till lv 20, the magic items in this campaign are not so easy to drop, every uncommon magic item is treated like a rare one and so on, and the DM is anyway not easy to make us drop magic items.

The party is made by this bladesinger, a moon druid, 2 paladins, a monk and a rogue.

TWF is not possible as my dm pretend a free hand for the arcane focus and he wont accept the drop weapon thing as its kinda ugly, as he accepts warcaster only for that specific components, so actually the one way is to make my arcane focus my sword, but in this campaign this is possible only with something called acquamarine, that is anyway very expensive. Otherwise, he accepted my clarification on BB + SB so i can use it.

On this campaign some spells are banned, in general all the spells involving other planes are not eligible.

Is this build playable or it lose too much compared with the more tanky style?

Do you feel same me that haste on the BS is less useful than on anyone else?

waiting for general comments. :P

[adb82]

Just edited with a more detailed spell list:

Cantrips:
Booming blade, Green Flame Blade, Mind Sliver, Shocking Grasp, minor illusion
1st lv:
Shield, Absorb elements, find familiar, identify, mage armor, Charm person, false life, detect magic
2nd lv:
Mirror Image, Shadow Blade, Misty Step, darkvision
3rd lv:
Counterspell, Dispel Magic, Blink, hypnotic pattern
4th lv:
Charm Monster, Polimorph, Wall of fire, Greater Invisibility
5th lv:
Wall of Force, Rary’s Telepathic Bond, steel wind strike, Synaptic static
6th lv:
Contingency, Soul Cage, Mass Suggestion, true seeing
7th lv:
Simulacrum, Crown of stars, Whirlwind, forcecage
8th lv:
Feeblemind, Clone, Mind Blank, Mighty Fortress
9th lv:
Foresight, Wish, Blade of Disater, Shapechange

I added more riruals and utilities and dumped some concentration spell that he would not use so much.
As said on this campaign i can use BoomingB + ShadowB but i cant use TWF and cast everything with war caster, as the OA of warcaster cant be BB and the attack grats from haste cant be BB as well.

As feats, i only have a doubt on lv 12, resilient (con) or mobile (that i wouldnt pick for a tanky build with blur, but as this guy will act more like a skermisher, alternating some wall and debuff for open the combat with melee for end it, maybe it can help to make BB and SB enter more often as ill not need shocking grasp, neither against fighters or anyway things that easy hit). In this moment resilient still look better in my eyes (from +11 at lv 12 till +15 to concentration savings it mean near to never fail +24 hit points), from other side with mobile the concentration savings its anyway a not bad +6 (+7 later) and he ll get hitted much less, but it smell trap somehow, i dont know why lol.

[MaxWilson]

Hello,
i finally decided to stay pure bladesinger and dont multiclass, but i have some reasons for dont consider him just a tank wizard, but also a good melee dpr (when he dont need cast powerfull concentration spells or he just dont want use hight lv slots).

*snip*

(B) Do you feel same me that haste on the BS is less useful than on anyone else?

(A) waiting for general comments. :P

Ps i hope my math are correct but as mentioned before im afraid to had forget something, i didnt write about earlier lv bcs SB is still stronger compared with other martial classes before, where they can have less attacks for round and still less slot for smite compared with BS slots for SB that have a full progression.

(A) General comment:

I hope you don't mind my saying so but if you're looking for comments it helps if you minimize the amount of work readers need to do to understand you.

(1) Put your main questions up front, which I think is something like "Looking for general advice on Bladesinger tactics. Is Haste still a good spell on Bladesinger? What other spells should I be looking at?"

(2) Use proper grammar and capitalization and format paragraphs with one main idea per paragraph, introduced at the beginning of the paragraph. It will only take you a second to write "because" instead of "bcs" but it can save hundreds of people hundreds of seconds spent trying to read it. If you make it too much work to read, a lot of people will ignore it and just go read something else!

(3) Consider reducing your use of acronyms, or at least giving the full name before you start using acronyms. It took me a while to figure out that "Our BS at lv 11, with a SB of 3rd lv (but he can upcast to 5th lv if he want) and BB applying" meant that you were using Shadow Blade III and Booming Blade.

(B) I generally agree that Shadow Blade is better offensively than Haste. Haste is good defensively if you're trying to kite (i.e. use it for a free Dash, Disengage or Hide attempt) and not so great if you're using it for an extra attack.

[Eldariel]

Don't forget about the potential offered by Magic Jar. That might save you two ASIs on Dex which could be well used on feats (Alert and Lucky are both huge on a Wizard for instance, doubly so if you're a fighty type - Mobile is pretty nice too especially thinking about BB). Incidentally Variant Human or Custom Lineage from Tasha's is obviously the best race as you stand to get a lot out of your feats. Steal any decent humanoid body (any high level one generally works) and go from there. Shadar-Kai, Gith & Drow in particular are notable. Knock 'em unconscious for the duration you need to borrow their body and then get to the ritual and you're golden. High level Goblin body for Disengage bonus action to abuse with BB would be awesome.

Far as viability goes, it's no worse than most melee fighters. Melee combat itself has a hard time matching high level caster performance on this level, but SB/BB is a reasonable set of damage and one of good types while at it, so you can do reasonably in melee. On this level you finally have enough Bladesongs to lean on that too. 8d8+6 at advantage is a reasonable set of damage though lacking innate scaling does hurt a bit (of course, Shadow Blade scales and eventually you'll unlock Shapechange which gives you the mother of all scalings; turn into e.g. Marilith which combines absurdly well with Bladesong giving you that +5 Int on each sword hit and gives you a reaction to cast Shields/Absorb Elements/Counterspells or taking OAs or parries each turn).


It's worth noting that Haste combines very well with Haste as does anything that gives you a lot of damage per attack. Tenser's goes nicely with it too, equal to level 5 Shadow Blade in terms of damage in darkness but superior otherwise. Of course, this means you want your Simulacrum casting Haste on you when you're self-buffing and then bailing so the Concentration is not at risk.

And yeah, the damage is very good. Even a level 11 Battlemaster with XBE/SS is only looking at 70ish DPR without going maneuver nova or action surge (though with those it can obviously push a lot higher temporarily).

[adb82]

Don't forget about the potential offered by Magic Jar. That might save you two ASIs on Dex which could be well used on feats (Alert and Lucky are both huge on a Wizard for instance, doubly so if you're a fighty type - Mobile is pretty nice too especially thinking about BB). Incidentally Variant Human or Custom Lineage from Tasha's is obviously the best race as you stand to get a lot out of your feats. Steal any decent humanoid body (any high level one generally works) and go from there. Shadar-Kai, Gith & Drow in particular are notable. Knock 'em unconscious for the duration you need to borrow their body and then get to the ritual and you're golden. High level Goblin body for Disengage bonus action to abuse with BB would be awesome.

Far as viability goes, it's no worse than most melee fighters. Melee combat itself has a hard time matching high level caster performance on this level, but SB/BB is a reasonable set of damage and one of good types while at it, so you can do reasonably in melee. On this level you finally have enough Bladesongs to lean on that too. 8d8+6 at advantage is a reasonable set of damage though lacking innate scaling does hurt a bit (of course, Shadow Blade scales and eventually you'll unlock Shapechange which gives you the mother of all scalings; turn into e.g. Marilith which combines absurdly well with Bladesong giving you that +5 Int on each sword hit and gives you a reaction to cast Shields/Absorb Elements/Counterspells or taking OAs or parries each turn).


It's worth noting that Haste combines very well with Haste as does anything that gives you a lot of damage per attack. Tenser's goes nicely with it too, equal to level 5 Shadow Blade in terms of damage in darkness but superior otherwise. Of course, this means you want your Simulacrum casting Haste on you when you're self-buffing and then bailing so the Concentration is not at risk.

And yeah, the damage is very good. Even a level 11 Battlemaster with XBE/SS is only looking at 70ish DPR without going maneuver nova or action surge (though with those it can obviously push a lot higher temporarily).

Yep, i understand what do you mean to do with magic jar...but it suppose to find someone with 20 dex and not so hight cha, that have to be for one minute at no more than 100 feet from you. I can probably pick it anyway as look nice, maybe in place of mass suggestion, but i dont know if i can plan my asi's starting from the point that at lv 11 ill find other body with 20 dex.

Lucky is not pickable in this campaign, player's can get the feat during the campaign, but only the DM know how.

Yea mobile would help me to make booming blade trigger, but it also mean im much weaker on concentration savings, while resilient give me from +11 to +15 on it.

The race is already choosed, we are already playing from lv 4, its an homebrew race but anyway grants same bonus as the hight elf (+2 dex, +1 int).

Tenser yea is good, but it deal as same damage as SB of 5th lv, but it dont let me cast shield, absorb elements, counterspel, dispel etc, while it solve my problem with concentration savings and give me 50 hp (pretty awesome), but it also burn my daily slot for soulcage. Still feel SB better, thats true that give advantage only in dim light, but with a owlcat familiar and 2 paladins in the group i should find enought advantage also with light.

I Didnt think about it but if ill meet a marilith its a nice combo.

About the simulacrum, i thought to make him do the control part, concentration on walls, on polymorph my ally, debuffing with synaptic static and things like this, while the main character is in melee with SB (i actually dont know if this is the best way to play it, thats just was my original idea), but yea sometime, if i find the spell for copy it, would be nice be hasted while using my SB lol (but i dont think to pick it as known spell as i wont use it till get simulacrum at lv 13).

Yes, if my math is not wrong, BS at lv 11 have around same dpr with good martial melee classes (even with SB upcasted at lv 3, he should be as you said near a BM or Zealot Barb, much better than any arcane trickster, and probably a bit below paladin and hexblade), plus its a full wizard, he can still debuff (synaptic static will probably be the open fight standard spell in the first turn when i start bladesong), buff himself (soul cage or more), deal damage to muliple targets (steel wind strike if fighting many enemies), save and buff, at the same time, himself or an ally with few hp (polimorph indeed will be my heal spell, something ill use only when im near to go down), dispel, counterpsel and when its really needed he can concentrate on a wall of force or use one of his many utilities out of combat, plus an insane AC (hp is the real issue but the ability he get at lv 10 help), i can say a good 70% of times he hit with advantage and without any -5 to hit for additianal damage, so his crits double almost all the damage as its almost all made by dice and he hit more often than anyone with GWM. Later on he gonna add also +5 int to damage, and i probably prefer -0 +5 with advantage and huge crits when it happen, than -5 +10 with a small crit and less often advantage. But its also true that Battle Masters for exemple have Superiority Dice and action surge for make their DPR for sure highter.

[MaxWilson]

Yep, i understand what do you mean to do with magic jar...but it suppose to find someone with 20 dex and not so hight cha, that have to be for one minute at no more than 100 feet from you.

You don't necessarily need to give them a full minute to react. You can always just knock them out with nonlethal damage and then Magic Jar them later.

But yeah, Magic Jar is situational, not something you can count on. Also it creates weaknesses to antimagic, although at high level there's a workaround via True Polymorph + Sequester to keep your original body on your person (e.g. as an invisible ring on your finger) in case of antimagic.

[adb82]

You don't necessarily need to give them a full minute to react. You can always just knock them out with nonlethal damage and then Magic Jar them later.

But yeah, Magic Jar is situational, not something you can count on. Also it creates weaknesses to antimagic, although at high level there's a workaround via True Polymorph + Sequester to keep your original body on your person (e.g. as an invisible ring on your finger) in case of antimagic.

Yea thats what i mean, it can be fun have magic jar, but i cant build the character around it.

Anyway for solve the main problem i even think a way for get mobile and resilient both, sacrifying a dex asi:
+2 int, mobile, resilient (con), +2 int, +2 dex

but stay with 16 dex in practice till the end seem a suboptimal option...

maybe +2 dex, mobile, resilient (con), +2 int, +2 int work better?

or if i want choose only one between mobile and resilient (con) which one looks better?

[Eldariel]

Res: Con is better. Mobile is nice as is Alert and Lucky, but Res: Con is borderline mandatory especially when you aren't Bladesinging.

I'd rate them all over Dex simply because Shapechange, True Polymorph and Magic Jar all override your Dex and even if they lack 20 Dex, they can have other very worthwhile boons where you'd want to have 'em anyways and don't care about your Dex (Gloom Weaver for example gets +4d12 Necrotic on its attacks and Soulmonger has +3d12 - while your DM's world probably lacks those specific creatures there's a world of humanoids out there and I find it extremely difficult to believe you wouldn't run into an upgrade if you fight high level NPCs like ever). So even if you miss out on the dream of 20 Dex/20 Int, you can probably have something even better.

And yeah, Magic Jar isn't 100% reliable (use your Contingency and Counterspell to protect yourself from would-be dispellers though enemies shouldn't know that you're Magic Jar'd straight out of the gate so they wouldn't know to use Dispel) but it's good enough to go for it; it frees up two ASIs which means you can get like Alert + Lucky or Mobile + Lucky (Lucky is so good as is Alert; Alert means you can always use your Counterspell/Shield/Absorb Elements and can fight at enemy disadvantage in Fog Cloud and the like and you'll get to go first and land your big CC long before enemy gets to act, while Lucky makes your Counterspells/Initiatives/etc. more reliable and lets you make enemy reroll their crits on you and gives you save rerolls). I just don't think the boons of boosting your base form Dex outweigh the drawbacks of missing out on feats. And even at 16 Dex your attacks are fine. You have Advantage much of the time so the hit rate isn't that big and your base damage is so big that the minor damage boost, especially with so few attacks, just doesn't feel worth it when you couple it with the fact that you might spend a significant time of your career without access to the Dex boosts.

As for Simulacrum, you can just pick the spell to use for the situation. Haste is a good one as is Wall of Force. Pick based on your needs. Haste is nice as a 3rd level spell for when you just wanna hit things though. There's sometimes a call for that.

[adb82]

Res: Con is better. Mobile is nice as is Alert and Lucky, but Res: Con is borderline mandatory especially when you aren't Bladesinging.

I'd rate them all over Dex simply because Shapechange, True Polymorph and Magic Jar all override your Dex and even if they lack 20 Dex, they can have other very worthwhile boons where you'd want to have 'em anyways and don't care about your Dex (Gloom Weaver for example gets +4d12 Necrotic on its attacks and Soulmonger has +3d12 - while your DM's world probably lacks those specific creatures there's a world of humanoids out there and I find it extremely difficult to believe you wouldn't run into an upgrade if you fight high level NPCs like ever). So even if you miss out on the dream of 20 Dex/20 Int, you can probably have something even better.

And yeah, Magic Jar isn't 100% reliable (use your Contingency and Counterspell to protect yourself from would-be dispellers though enemies shouldn't know that you're Magic Jar'd straight out of the gate so they wouldn't know to use Dispel) but it's good enough to go for it; it frees up two ASIs which means you can get like Alert + Lucky or Mobile + Lucky (Lucky is so good as is Alert; Alert means you can always use your Counterspell/Shield/Absorb Elements and can fight at enemy disadvantage in Fog Cloud and the like and you'll get to go first and land your big CC long before enemy gets to act, while Lucky makes your Counterspells/Initiatives/etc. more reliable and lets you make enemy reroll their crits on you and gives you save rerolls). I just don't think the boons of boosting your base form Dex outweigh the drawbacks of missing out on feats. And even at 16 Dex your attacks are fine. You have Advantage much of the time so the hit rate isn't that big and your base damage is so big that the minor damage boost, especially with so few attacks, just doesn't feel worth it when you couple it with the fact that you might spend a significant time of your career without access to the Dex boosts.

As for Simulacrum, you can just pick the spell to use for the situation. Haste is a good one as is Wall of Force. Pick based on your needs. Haste is nice as a 3rd level spell for when you just wanna hit things though. There's sometimes a call for that.

so at this point +2 int, mobile, resilient (con). +2 int +2 dex (or whatever) looks better than my starting idea, even in this way what i really lost is a +1 CA while im not bladesinging, and early lv it probably count.

Lucky is not allowed to be picked, there is a way during the campaign we can get it, but we dont know how actually.

About haste, id like to pick it but counterspell and dispel are needed, blink as well boost my defense (random, but better than nothing as its the one no concentration spell with mirror image that do it, but mirror image after hit maybe the end of tier 2 or even earlier go down after 1 or 2 turns), i should dump hypnotic pattern that yes, is concentration, but its probably the best benefits/cost spell of the list, its good even out of combat, so i hope to find an haste scroll for when i hit lv 13 and get simulacrum...wall of force yes, it really cant miss in any wizard build, its simply too good.

[adb82]

I changed again some spell, i added fireball as a 4th lv choice and ill probably upcast it or more often counterspel and dispel. I dumped Greater Invisibility bcs i wanted to use it out of combat, but one minute its really few. I added mordenkeinen's private sanctum for the clone later on and dumped charm monster, i also dumped wall of fire for dimension door and ray's telepathic bond for teleportation circle, mass suggestion for scatter and finally whirlwind with teleport.

So for be more clear:

Cantrips:

Booming blade, Green Flame Blade, Mind Sliver, Shocking Grasp, minor illusion

1st lv:

SHield, Absorb elements, find familiar, identify, Mage Armor, Charm person, false life, detect magic

2nd lv:

Mirror Image, Shadow Blade, Misty Step, darkvision.

3rd lv:

Counterspell e Dispel Magic, Blink, hypnotic pattern, fireball (normally upcasted to 4th lv and choosed between 4th lv spells)

4th lv:

Mordenkainen Private Sanctum, Polimorph, dimension door

5th lv:

Wall of Force, Teleportation Circle, steel wind strike, Synaptic static

6th lv:

Contingency, Soul Cage, Scatter, true seeing

7th lv:

Simulacrum, Crown of stars, teleport, forcecage

8th lv:

Feeblemind, Clone, Mind Blank, Mighty Fortress

9th lv:

Foresight, Wish, Blade of Disater, Shapechange

The mechanics should be: open the fight with synaptic static (or scatter) and start bladesong in the same turn, than go with SB (lv 3, or 5 from T3 sometimes) for a full attack in the second turn, he have misty step, dimension door and steel wind strike for mobility, later on soul cage and crown of stars help to fill the bonus action. Wall of force when its needed, polimorph as heal spell (earlier false life precasted). Earlier lv the opening spell can be fireball or hypnotic pattern, or defensive spells like mirror image and blink, depend on situation...misty step is my bonus action. In T2/T3 i suppose im gonna leave things like mirror image and probably blink too, while till lv 9/10 ill use them more often.

For asi's i decided to go +2 int, resilient (con), +2 int, alert (or +2 dex, but at lv 16 dex shouldnt matter anymore i suppose, thats why im searching alternatives, +8 or +9 on attacks damage its just same, and at this level the +1 to hit also dont make so big difference), maybe charger here but im not sure...

If 16 dex would be too few for hit i can go with +2 int, resilient (con), +2 dex, +2 int, alert or charger

There is some better or alternative tactic or mechanic to figure out?

Do you think this have enought sinergies?

Which progression with asi's looks better? Its still worth to put +2 dex at lv 12?

Do you think it gonna be ok till lv 12 (or till the end) to keep him with 16 dex considering that he often should get advantage and that he dont have the -5 penalty like GWmasters?

unluckly i have to decide my first asi before tomorrow, because we ll play our first session after get to lv 4 in the last one


Ps other consideration im making is to go for a dip hexblade after lv 14 (or even after lv 17):
+ 5 (+6 later on) to damage + 5 int + 3 (or 4 depend on asi) dex its = between +13 and +15 damage to every attack, without any penalty to hit, with crit chance doubled and often advantage, with a SB and BB applaying on it seem terrifying for 2 fights a day. The real problem is that its supposed to enter at turn 3, bcs first turn will be bladesong + synaptic static (for exemple), second turn SB + full attack, 3rd turn curse + full attack...so entering so late in play im not sure its really worth it, but maybe can be good if i give up shadow blade for any magic weapon, entering in turn 2 it seem really too good and ill use concentration for other thing, whirlwind for exemple, that i would pick in place of teleport...but well, even wall of force its more than ok.