New Beast Master?

[TheSnowHatHero]

Just a quick question,
Does the new Beast Master feature from Tasha's make it comparable to other(non-gloomstalker) subclasses?
That's it. Thanks!

[Catullus64]

Comparable how? It's certainly more fun than it was before, and has a more satisfying gameplay loop now that animal companion commands are more efficient. I've played rangers only sporadically, but my new post-Tasha's Beastmaster was probably the most fun I've had with any ranger subclass. It communicates the fantasy of man and beast fighting in tandem, as opposed to the old BM where man hangs out in the back shouting encouragement at beast.

I think it also helps that you have a physical animal that you're moving around the board as the centerpiece of your tactics; you have a really tangible sense of what your character and his beast are doing, while so many of the other Ranger subclasses are some variant of "do abstract magic thing to deal extra damage" or "fulfill criterion X and get more attacks for some reason." It feels a lot more dynamic to describe your falcon swooping down on the ogre before you loose your arrow, rather than some variant on "I stare at the ogre really hard in order to deal more damage."

[SharkForce]

old beastmaster was not necessarily mechanically weak, just mechanically clunky, limited in options (if you wanted to keep up in damage, that is; if you don't mind being weaker, you had more options), and felt quite unsatisfying to play.

new beastmaster is much more straightforward, feels better, and has some major quality of life features, including making it so that you don't have an extremely hard time replacing your pet if it dies... but also is basically limited to only 1 or 2 options for pet unless you're willing to trade in most of the improvements (one if your campaign is 24/7 underwater, two if it isn't).

for most people, new beastmaster will likely do a good job of giving them what they want while being reasonably powerful.

[J-H]

There's a bit of competition for Bonus Actions, but at least you don't have to give up attacks to use it any more.

Land beast at level 20, assuming Wis 20(?!?) on the Ranger:
AC 19
HP 105
Speed 40', climb 40'
Darkvision 60'
Attack: Maul, +11 to hit, 5', one target, 1d8+8 slashing damage
On a charge, +1d6 slashing damage, and Str DC 17 or prone

The AC is good, the damage is not, and the number of attacks isn't very good.

Here's what a 20th-level/6th level spell slot "Elemental Spirit" from Tasha's does. I picked this because it's upcast some, but not to the point of consuming the only one of a particular slot for the day. Assuming a 20 in the casting stat.
AC 17
HP 70
Speed 40'
Darkvision 60
Some immunities and resistances
Attack x 3: +11 to hit, 5', one target, 1d10+10 damage

The Beastmaster beast has better AC & HP, but zero resistances. An elemental summoned by a 6th level spell does triple the damage.

...

End of the day, it's an improvement, but at high levels, the beast is less valuable than a 4th/5th/6th level spell slot. You'll get more damage out of Zephyr Strike (the one that's a teleport and 4d10 force damage to 5 targets) than you will out of your beast for an entire fight.
I'd take it for a low-level campaign, but not for a high-level campaign.

Edit: I would take it if I was playing a small race and riding it. If there's a way to get permanently Reduced, the flying one would be good, too.

[Dark.Revenant]

There's a bit of competition for Bonus Actions, but at least you don't have to give up attacks to use it any more.

Land beast at level 20, assuming Wis 20(?!?) on the Ranger:
AC 19
HP 105
Speed 40', climb 40'
Darkvision 60'
Attack: Maul, +11 to hit, 5', one target, 1d8+8 slashing damage
On a charge, +1d6 slashing damage, and Str DC 17 or prone

The AC is good, the damage is not, and the number of attacks isn't very good.

Here's what a 20th-level/6th level spell slot "Elemental Spirit" from Tasha's does. I picked this because it's upcast some, but not to the point of consuming the only one of a particular slot for the day. Assuming a 20 in the casting stat.
AC 17
HP 70
Speed 40'
Darkvision 60
Some immunities and resistances
Attack x 3: +11 to hit, 5', one target, 1d10+10 damage

The Beastmaster beast has better AC & HP, but zero resistances. An elemental summoned by a 6th level spell does triple the damage.

...

End of the day, it's an improvement, but at high levels, the beast is less valuable than a 4th/5th/6th level spell slot. You'll get more damage out of Zephyr Strike (the one that's a teleport and 4d10 force damage to 5 targets) than you will out of your beast for an entire fight.
I'd take it for a low-level campaign, but not for a high-level campaign.

Edit: I would take it if I was playing a small race and riding it. If there's a way to get permanently Reduced, the flying one would be good, too.

You're forgetting that the beast has two attacks from level 11 onwards. Potentially 28.5 damage on a bonus action, or in place of one of your regular attacks. It can also generate advantage for you. This doesn't require concentration, so the closest direct comparison is Spiritual Weapon: a spell that can't match your damage output even when cast at 9th level.

The 6th-level spell requires concentration and an action to set up (so it's not as convenient in some situations), but does do 46.5 damage without requiring further actions of input.

A fairer comparison is the Beastmaster also has Summon Elemental active, except for him it's at 4th level (a fairly similar investment compared to a full caster's 6th level slot at 17+). Both are now using concentration, though the Beastmaster is using his bonus action for additional damage while the caster is probably not using the bonus action for damage. The Beastmaster is doing, in total, 55.5 damage before we take his Action into account.

[J-H]

You're forgetting that the beast has two attacks from level 11 onwards. Potentially 28.5 damage on a bonus action, or in place of one of your regular attacks. It can also generate advantage for you. This doesn't require concentration, so the closest direct comparison is Spiritual Weapon: a spell that can't match your damage output even when cast at 9th level.
I don't see the second attack anywhere on page 62 of Tasha's with the rest of the new beast info. Where is it?

[Vulryn]

I don't see the second attack anywhere on page 62 of Tasha's with the rest of the new beast info. Where is it?

Because you‘re looking into the wrong book. ;) it’s in the phb.

[stoutstien]

I don't see the second attack anywhere on page 62 of Tasha's with the rest of the new beast info. Where is it?

The Tasha option is added to the base BM in the PHB and only changes the rules of the beast basically.

[Quietus]

The big tradeoff is that with standard beastmaster pets, you have to spend one of your attacks for your beast to attack - but its stats are not connected to your own. With Beastmaster, you are accepting Monk-style stat requirements for the ability to make a bonus action attack with your pet, and as of level 11, it makes two attacks instead of one.

It basically boils down to, which would you rather do? The base beastmaster works best if you take a feat that gives you bonus action attacks, while using Tasha's beast works best if you're going to make use of your spells and raise Wisdom.

[lordshadowisle]

I've played with the new Tasha's Beast Master a small bit. I think that the new beast master feature patches some of the problems with the original class. The bonus action to command significantly improves the action economy (and thus DPR) of the BM ranger.

However, the main problem is still that your subclass features are entirely tied to the beast, which (although buffed) isn't all that tanky. If it dies during combat, you have no subclass for the rest of the combat. Tasha's BM is still better than base though, as this is partially remedied by being able to spend a spell slot to revive the beast from dead to max HP after one minute. Interestingly, since you really don't want the beast to die too early during combat, if the beast is significantly injured at the end of a combat, a pragmatic beastmaster may want to "heal" the beast to full HP... by killing it first and expending a spell slot :smallamused:!

That said, while the beast isn't that tanky compared to a PC, because it can essentially regenerate all its HPs between combat at the cost of only 1 spell slot, it does a decent job at being a sacrificial meatshield to block attackers or provoke OAs.

One other downside is that because the beast is another body on the ground, any AOE effects can feel doubly punishing. Also, since the beast hangs around between combats, it also suffers any incidental damage or effects (eg traps, environmental effects) that occur. It's a problem when playing any type of summoner/pet class, but it doesn't feel like the upside is worth it.

[Unoriginal]

Also worth noting the Elemental Spirit costing a spell slot, requiring concentration and not sticking with you all day because of spell duration (on top of having less staying power in general due to lower AC and HPs) means that you're likely going to get more attacks out of the Land Beast overall, between two long rests.

[J-H]

Ah, split info. Thanks!

I think if someone wanted to play a BM in my campaign, I'd allow the beast to attune to a magic item or two.

[stoutstien]

Ah, split info. Thanks!

I think if someone wanted to play a BM in my campaign, I'd allow the beast to attune to a magic item or two.
RaW they could attune to magical items. The question is the nature of equipping said item.

[MrCharlie]

As others have said the real benefit is that it's basically a level 4-6ish level concentration spell you always have active and which does not cost concentration for you, in comparison to the summoning spells. As a ranger archetype this is pretty decent. The one negative is that you have literally zero reason to use two-weapon fighting as a beastmaster, as commanding it either takes an attack or a bonus action, meaning you lose the second attack either way. It's good on an archer or a two-handed ranger though.

Fey wanderer is probably better at the minion spam, because it can simply spend every action making another fey summon that does not require concentration. As a minion summoning class goes, fey wanderer can really nova minions all over the place, and unlike summon beasts or something these minions are all mobile and can actually hit what they are aiming at. It costs spell slots the ranger doesen't actually have to spend, but it's a better minion nova. In terms of staying power, beast master still has it beat. Also, fey wanderer minion cascade is a super high level technique.

In comparison to other classes, beastmaster is still mediocre. Battlesmith artificer has a better pet and better base class, Wildfire druid has better secondary summons and better spells to summon with, and even creation bard has a decent summon because it can use inspiration and make the summon attack on the same bonus action. And it goes without saying that bards and druids are better classes than ranger, even Tasha's ranger, by virtue of being A tier spellcasters.

[Lolzyking]

I still think Old Beast master is arguably more useful.

I would much rather just get the bonus action command option along with the Primal Bond Ability on any existing BM pet and call it a day than ever use the bland beasts tasha's provide.