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Waazraath
2021-02-17, 03:51 AM
Tasha's boosted monk in several ways. In the first place, the optional rules. There are quite a lot of them (4), all of them are additional (not replacing other features). If you play with Tasha's and the DM allows them, this is all pretty much: extra damage from lvl 2 (with a versatile weapon), extra accuracy from lvl 5, extra healing from lvl 4, and extra attack when using an action that costs ki, giving a boost to casting monks like 4e and shadow. But in the second place, there are 2 pretty strong subclasses, that improve versatility and damage over the regular monks (mercy gives healing / status removal, and extra damage/debuffing, while astral gives bonusses to skills and extra damage). Finally, there's the fighting style (unarmed fighting), that increases unarmed damage to 1d8, and with a feat can be taken at lvl 1 (vhuman or tasha's custom race). 2 attacks for 1d8 + 3 at level 1 was only attainable by a fighter taking the relevant fighting style and the two weapon fighting feat - and at level 3, the monk can use flurry of blows for 3 x 1d8 +3.

I'd say with Tasha's on the table, it's the best time ever to play a monk. A lot of classes got some extra's, but I'd say monk got more than most of them.

But was it really needed? What I've seen of monks, they were already darn good at the low levels - though I might be biased seen campaigns with mainly low hp enemies that could be vanquished with 1 hit of 1d4+3, and people in general only playing monks when having rolled good stats - something the monk benefits from more than most other classes.

Damon_Tor
2021-02-17, 05:25 AM
I was going to quibble about how the Fighting Initiate feat would become a waste as soon as the Monk hits level 11, but then I remembered the feat lets you retrain the fighting style. So once your normal unarmed attacks grow to 1d8 you can ditch the unarmed style in favor of either blind fighting or superior technique.

elyktsorb
2021-02-17, 05:40 AM
For specifically low level campaigns (1-4) the the unarmed fighting style might be worth it, but it specifically goes off of Strength and not Dex. On average your d8 unarmed strikes will only be ahead until you get to d6 in monk progression, assuming your dumping strength so you can still have a decent AC.

With +0 Str as opposed to +3 Dex, once you hit lvl 5 you do basically the same damage with your 3d6+dex as your 3d8. (With Custom Lineage you could take a +2 to Dex and then take a feat that gives a +1 to Dex to start with an 18 in dex)

Of course you could pump Str at the cost of lessening your AC, and future monk abilities. So unless your specifically pumping Str, I'd say the unarmed fighting style stops being worth anything for Monks as soon as you hit lvl 5. And then if you take a campaign long enough to get to level 11 it's becomes redundant/wasteful, because instead of having +5 Dex by now, you likely have +5 Str, and likely a middling dex. Which means you spent a feat to get less AC than you would normally have, and pushing the idea of this being good for grappling is a moot point since the Astral Self Subclass allows you to do grappling while still synergizing with what a monk wants.

If I really wanted another fighting style, keeping unarmed fighting from levels 1-3 would be a nifty thing for some extra damage. But I don't see any point to pushing str with it.

As for everything else, yeah, I think Monk got some good stuff. Did it need it? Probably not, but I'd rather have things I don't need than to have nothing at all. Probably would have preferred if they did more shoring up to the less good monk classes.

Waazraath
2021-02-17, 05:42 AM
For specifically low level campaigns (1-4) the the unarmed fighting style might be worth it, but it specifically goes off of Strength and not Dex. On average your d8 unarmed strikes will only be ahead until you get to d6 in monk progression, assuming your dumping strength so you can still have a decent AC.


Hmmm... I considered the fighting style changing damage to 1d8+str, and the martial arts ability changing the str to dex, ending up with 1d8+dex...

Hytheter
2021-02-17, 05:48 AM
Yeah, I don't see why Unarmed Style shouldn't be compatible with Martial Arts using Dex.

"You can use Dexterity instead of Strength for the attack and damage rolls of your unarmed strikes and monk weapons."

Nothing about that suggests it wouldn't work if you're already using a feature that modifies unarmed. It'd be different if it said that using Dex was contingent on using the Martial Arts dice, but that's not the case - they are technically unrelated effects despite being part of the same feature.

Damon_Tor
2021-02-17, 05:51 AM
For specifically low level campaigns (1-4) the the unarmed fighting style might be worth it, but it specifically goes off of Strength and not Dex.

There's no reason to think the monk's Martial Arts ability wouldn't function as written. "You can use Dexterity instead of Strength for the attack and damage rolls of your unarmed strikes and monk weapons."

elyktsorb
2021-02-17, 05:51 AM
Hmmm... I considered the fighting style changing damage to 1d8+str, and the martial arts ability changing the str to dex, ending up with 1d8+dex...

Due to it's wording, you can only have the unarmed fighting's damage if you use Str for damage. "Your unarmed strikes can deal bludgeoning damage equal to 1d6 + your Strength modifier on a hit" So you can make your unarmed strike deal 1d6(or 8)+ str on a hit. You can't however turn it from str back to dex. And that's specifically because Martial Arts stipulates INSTEAD, which means you can use either Strength or Dexterity.

Though given the wording it may be possible to use str for the damage (meaning you'd get unarmed fightings 1d8+str) while using your Dex for the Attack roll because the feat states that you can have your unarmed attacks deal that damage, as opposed to saying it must. So that means if you attack with your unarmed strike using dex, you can have the damage be 1d6 or 1d8+str.

I have no idea why anyone would ever want to do that as it would be investing in both str and dex, which defeats the whole point of being a monk in the first place. Though that same INSTEAD might also mean you have to use a single stat Dex or Str, to make both the attack and the damage roll, which would completely prevent you from using the pointless thing I mentioned above. And if this were the case it might imply that you have to use your Str for the attack roll to deal Str damage. But again, if you were pumping Str, you wouldn't be using Dex for the attack roll anyway.

Hytheter
2021-02-17, 05:58 AM
Due to it's wording, you can only have the unarmed fighting's damage if you use Str for damage. "Your unarmed strikes can deal bludgeoning damage equal to 1d6 + your Strength modifier on a hit" So you can make your unarmed strike deal 1d6(or 8)+ str on a hit.

I don't see how that wording prevents replacing the strength bonus with your dexterity using Martial Arts. Unarmed style says you can attack d6+str; martial arts says you can use Dex instead of strength when you make an unarmed strike.

elyktsorb
2021-02-17, 06:11 AM
I don't see how that wording prevents replacing the strength bonus with your dexterity using Martial Arts. Unarmed style says you can attack d6+str; martial arts says you can use Dex instead of strength when you make an unarmed strike.

No, martial arts says you can use Dex when rolling attack and damage rolls instead of strength. "You can use Dexterity instead of Strength for the attack and damage rolls of your unarmed strikes and monk weapons."

Unarmed Style says "Your unarmed strikes can deal bludgeoning damage equal to 1d6 + your Strength modifier on a hit."

Meaning either,

You used Dexterity for the attack roll, you could read the and in martial arts as saying you can use dexterity instead of strength for the attack roll, and you could use it for the to hit roll as well, meaning that if you hit using Dexterity, your damage roll could use Strength. But if you use Dexterity for the damage roll, you have to use that instead of Strength. Which means your unarmed strike can't do 1d6+str. Which is what the Unarmed Fighting Style allows you to do if you use Str. Because it does not allow your unarmed strikes to deal 1d6 (or 8) + dex.

OR

The And is for both, meaning that if you use Dexterity for the attack roll you have to also use it for the damage roll, at which point you've already enabled your instead to make it dexterity based damage.

The first is both interesting and meaningless in the long run, because at low levels your dex might be higher than your str if you are dumping str and are just using the fighting style to get the d6 (or d8) on your unarmed strikes, but after level 5, if your still putting more into dex because you planned to swap the fighting style once it becomes redundant, then that's where it stops being useful.

If you are instead pumping str and are using this feat to get 1d6(or 8) of damage from levels 1-10 on a monk, then it's pointless because you wouldn't be using your dex for the attack rolls anyway.

Damon_Tor
2021-02-17, 06:28 AM
Due to it's wording, you can only have the unarmed fighting's damage if you use Str for damage. "Your unarmed strikes can deal bludgeoning damage equal to 1d6 + your Strength modifier on a hit" So you can make your unarmed strike deal 1d6(or 8)+ str on a hit. You can't however turn it from str back to dex. And that's specifically because Martial Arts stipulates INSTEAD, which means you can use either Strength or Dexterity.

You're wrong my man.

It is really common for various attack types to note that you add strength to the damage. Hell, even the core unarmed attack rule says it: "On a hit, an Unarmed Strike deals bludgeoning damage equal to 1 + your Strength modifier." By your logic a monk wouldn't be able to use dex for any unarmed strike, ever. Which is clearly incorrect.

Theodoxus
2021-02-17, 06:36 AM
Or, you know, use a staff, which is a monk weapon already, so doesn't need Dedicated Weapon, thus can start at level 1; doesn't need a feat, so thus can be any race, and deals 1d8+Dex...

I don't agree with Ely's take on the interaction either. Specific overrides general. The fighting style is general. Martial Arts is specific. But outside of jerk DMs starting a campaign sans equipment, there's little reason to get tied into knots trying to emulate a 'weaponless' build that's easily replicated with a superior weapon. Plus, it's pretty iconic...

Damon_Tor
2021-02-17, 06:41 AM
Or, you know, use a staff, which is a monk weapon already, so doesn't need Dedicated Weapon, thus can start at level 1; doesn't need a feat, so thus can be any race, and deals 1d8+Dex...

I don't agree with Ely's take on the interaction either. Specific overrides general. The fighting style is general. Martial Arts is specific. But outside of jerk DMs starting a campaign sans equipment, there's little reason to get tied into knots trying to emulate a 'weaponless' build that's easily replicated with a superior weapon. Plus, it's pretty iconic...

Except that the bonus action attack from Martial Arts has to be unarmed, as do the attacks from Flurry of Blows.

Hytheter
2021-02-17, 06:49 AM
stuff.

Frankly, you're making this more complicated than it is. It's like this: Unarmed style lets you make an unarmed strike that deals d6+str. That d6+str is a damage roll with an unarmed strike. Martial arts lets you use DEX instead of STR for the damage rolls of unarmed strikes. Therefore, when you make that d6+str damage roll you can replace the str with dex and make it a d6+dex damage roll.

elyktsorb
2021-02-17, 06:49 AM
You're wrong my man.


I concede. I am wrong. Unarmed fighting will stop being useful at 11th level for most monks.

Theodoxus
2021-02-17, 07:07 AM
Except that the bonus action attack from Martial Arts has to be unarmed, as do the attacks from Flurry of Blows.

so you lose 1 point of damage? ok...

Hytheter
2021-02-17, 07:26 AM
so you lose 1 point of damage? ok...

I'm with you that unarmed style for monks is a mild low-level boost at best and not really worth investing into. You're really going to spend an ASI for this? I don't think so. Actually, Fighting Initiate seems to me like a trap choice in general, with archers as a possible exception.

IMO the more interesting side of this interaction is to use a monk dip to enhance an unarmed fighter.

stoutstien
2021-02-17, 07:35 AM
so you lose 1 point of damage? ok...

It's nice for a flavor option that isn't completely subpar. There is also a few subclasses that rely on unarmed strikes for the bulk of thier features like Mercy and sometimes magical weapon damage is needed on as many PCs as possible so passing on a magical weapon and using fists is a worthwhile move.

while it's not a good pick it's also not a bad one. Solid middle IMO.

Ki fueled strike is where the money is with Monk's optional features. Focused aim is strong later on when ki pool is deep enough to leverage it.

Waazraath
2021-02-17, 07:46 AM
so you lose 1 point of damage? ok...

How is this 1 point of damage? The difference with martial arts is between 1d4 and 1d8, average 2 damage; with flurry of blows, that's an average of extra 4 damage. That's a lot. 3 attacks of 1d8+3 9 times/day (assuming 2 short rests) is very strong at these levels.

Dork_Forge
2021-02-17, 07:51 AM
I concede. I am wrong. Unarmed fighting will stop being useful at 11th level for most monks.

The grapple benefit would still be useful for some (like an Astral Self grapple build), but most Monks can just swap it out for a more beneficial fighting style. The obvious one would be Superior Technique (making the Monk more of a short rest power house) but in Tier 3 Blind Fighting could be a real boon, as could grabbing dueling to do 1d8+2+Dex, which is better than just using the versatile property on something like a longsword. It also opens up a good damage option (Dueling rapier) whilst still qualifiying for something like Defensive Duelist or a Rogue dip.


so you lose 1 point of damage? ok...

You lose 2 points of damage on average going from a d8 to a d4, so 4 points per Flurry and worse crits (there's the added benefit of the grapple damage if you go that route too). Is it a monumental difference? Not really, but we're talking about early game where every little helps.

Unoriginal
2021-02-17, 08:15 AM
Tasha's boosted monk in several ways. In the first place, the optional rules. There are quite a lot of them (4), all of them are additional (not replacing other features). If you play with Tasha's and the DM allows them, this is all pretty much: extra damage from lvl 2 (with a versatile weapon), extra accuracy from lvl 5, extra healing from lvl 4, and extra attack when using an action that costs ki, giving a boost to casting monks like 4e and shadow. But in the second place, there are 2 pretty strong subclasses, that improve versatility and damage over the regular monks (mercy gives healing / status removal, and extra damage/debuffing, while astral gives bonusses to skills and extra damage). Finally, there's the fighting style (unarmed fighting), that increases unarmed damage to 1d8, and with a feat can be taken at lvl 1 (vhuman or tasha's custom race). 2 attacks for 1d8 + 3 at level 1 was only attainable by a fighter taking the relevant fighting style and the two weapon fighting feat - and at level 3, the monk can use flurry of blows for 3 x 1d8 +3.

I'd say with Tasha's on the table, it's the best time ever to play a monk. A lot of classes got some extra's, but I'd say monk got more than most of them.

But was it really needed? What I've seen of monks, they were already darn good at the low levels - though I might be biased seen campaigns with mainly low hp enemies that could be vanquished with 1 hit of 1d4+3, and people in general only playing monks when having rolled good stats - something the monk benefits from more than most other classes.

The "if you spend ki, you can do a BA attack" point is really nice for Four Elements Monks, as it help making spending ki for their elemental powers worthwhile.

I wouldn't say the changes were needed to make the Monk functional, it already was. But it def. makes the Monk more fun/fluid.

Keravath
2021-02-17, 10:51 AM
Honestly, most of the Tasha's monk options seem more for flavor than function.

"DEDICATED WEAPON
2nd-level monk feature
You train yourself to use a variety of weapons as monk weapons, not just simple melee weapons and shortswords. Whenever you finish a short or long rest, you can touch one weapon, focus your ki on it, and then count that weapon as a monk weapon until you use this feature again.
The chosen weapon must meet these criteria:
• The weapon must be a simple or martial weapon.
• You must be proficient with it.
• It must lack the heavy and special properties."

Monks only start off proficient with simple melee weapons and shortswords so I don't see what effect this feature has at all except for a multiclass that picks up proficiency in martial weapons or some races that have additional weapon proficiencies not available to a standard monk. Without additional proficiencies this feature does nothing as far as I can tell for a regular monk.

"KI-FUELED ATTACK
3rd-level monk feature
If you spend 1 ki point or more as part of your action on your turn, you can make one attack with an unarmed strike or a monk weapon as a bonus action before the end of the turn."

Monks can always make a bonus action attack using martial arts. This feature helps edge cases like a shadow monk or four elements that happen to use ki to cast a spell and as a result get one bonus action attack. Useful yes but hardly a game changer.

"QUICKENED HEALING
4th-level monk feature
As an action, you can spend 2 ki points and roll a Martial Arts die. You regain a number of hit points equal to the number rolled plus your proficiency bonus."

It uses your action, but due to Ki fueled strikes you can use a very minor healing ability and still make an attack. Starts at d4+2, d6+3 at level 5 ... however, the amount of healing is so small that it won't typically prevent a character from going down since opponents will do far more damage than that every turn. In addition, 2 ki is worth 2 attempts at stun which will completely shut down an opponent and make them an easy target for everyone else. This is niche and generally not a good use of ki.

"FOCUSED AIM
5th-level monk feature
When you miss with an attack roll, you can spend 1 to 3 ki points to increase your attack roll by 2 for each of these ki points you spend, potentially turning the miss into a hit."

Possibly very expensive with ki, very niche when the character really must hit this time with this attack for some reason. However, if the character is spending ki to try to get another d6+3 (or 4) attack to hit ... what is the point? Again the character is probably much better off spending the ki on stun, or flurry of blows for and extra attack which could crit.

Anyway, I find that the new abilities for monk's in Tasha's are mostly just ribbons. They have niche applications but most of the time would not be a good use of ki.

stoutstien
2021-02-17, 11:14 AM
The basic combo is that focused aim allows ki fueled strike which is better damage than flurry most of the time. depending on the weapon used.

Amechra
2021-02-17, 12:28 PM
Honestly, most of the Tasha's monk options seem more for flavor than function.

I'm going to drop this here. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?626095-The-Way-of-the-Zen-Archery-A-Mini-Guide-To-The-Post-Tasha-s-Kensei)

Basically:


Devoted Weapon either lets you use weapons granted by your race/multiclass, or it gives you the ability to use darts/shortbows to give you a ranged option.
Ki-Fueled Attack lets you make ranged attacks in conjunction with Devoted Weapon. Or you use it to make BA attacks with a magic weapon.
Quickened Healing basically lets you turn leftover ki into virtual hit-dice during short rests. It's not a good feature, but it gives you something to do with your ki if you were a little overly conservative (i.e., the boss fight you were expecting doesn't happen until after a short rest).
Focused Aim is really good with Sharpshooter if you're doing the ranged thing. It also lets you trigger Ki-Fueled Attack.


I'll agree that they're mostly ribbon-tier features, but they add quite a bit of much-needed versatility to the Monk chassis.

MaxWilson
2021-02-17, 12:56 PM
Quickened Healing basically lets you turn leftover ki into virtual hit-dice during short rests. It's not a good feature, but it gives you something to do with your ki if you were a little overly conservative (i.e., the boss fight you were expecting doesn't happen until after a short rest).

It also functions as a form of regeneration if your party has time to take a longer rest (e.g. two short rests back to back) but not enough time to take a full 24 hour break (long rest).

Scarytincan
2021-02-17, 01:12 PM
Honestly, most of the Tasha's monk options seem more for flavor than function.

"DEDICATED WEAPON
2nd-level monk feature
You train yourself to use a variety of weapons as monk weapons, not just simple melee weapons and shortswords. Whenever you finish a short or long rest, you can touch one weapon, focus your ki on it, and then count that weapon as a monk weapon until you use this feature again.
The chosen weapon must meet these criteria:
• The weapon must be a simple or martial weapon.
• You must be proficient with it.
• It must lack the heavy and special properties."

Monks only start off proficient with simple melee weapons and shortswords so I don't see what effect this feature has at all except for a multiclass that picks up proficiency in martial weapons or some races that have additional weapon proficiencies not available to a standard monk. Without additional proficiencies this feature does nothing as far as I can tell for a regular monk.

"KI-FUELED ATTACK
3rd-level monk feature
If you spend 1 ki point or more as part of your action on your turn, you can make one attack with an unarmed strike or a monk weapon as a bonus action before the end of the turn."

Monks can always make a bonus action attack using martial arts. This feature helps edge cases like a shadow monk or four elements that happen to use ki to cast a spell and as a result get one bonus action attack. Useful yes but hardly a game changer.

"QUICKENED HEALING
4th-level monk feature
As an action, you can spend 2 ki points and roll a Martial Arts die. You regain a number of hit points equal to the number rolled plus your proficiency bonus."

It uses your action, but due to Ki fueled strikes you can use a very minor healing ability and still make an attack. Starts at d4+2, d6+3 at level 5 ... however, the amount of healing is so small that it won't typically prevent a character from going down since opponents will do far more damage than that every turn. In addition, 2 ki is worth 2 attempts at stun which will completely shut down an opponent and make them an easy target for everyone else. This is niche and generally not a good use of ki.

"FOCUSED AIM
5th-level monk feature
When you miss with an attack roll, you can spend 1 to 3 ki points to increase your attack roll by 2 for each of these ki points you spend, potentially turning the miss into a hit."

Possibly very expensive with ki, very niche when the character really must hit this time with this attack for some reason. However, if the character is spending ki to try to get another d6+3 (or 4) attack to hit ... what is the point? Again the character is probably much better off spending the ki on stun, or flurry of blows for and extra attack which could crit.

Anyway, I find that the new abilities for monk's in Tasha's are mostly just ribbons. They have niche applications but most of the time would not be a good use of ki.

Dedicated weapon opens up for multiclass yes, also for racial weapons from elves, dwarves etc. It also allows you to use a ranged weapon like a sling later for d10 damage. It also opens up ranged weapons for the ki fueled bonus action attack.

Ki fueled attack can also be triggered by things like stunning strike on an attack you made during your action, kensei features, and quivering palm, etc.

Quickened healing is mostly going to be used for extra healing before a short rest.

Focused aim will probably get the least use I'd say, as far as using ki efficiently is concerned. But could see more use in kensei archers and builds that use poison. I could see it getting used more often as well when you really need to stun a target and need the hits, be that on your turn or an opportunity attack.

x3n0n
2021-02-17, 02:32 PM
Monks only start off proficient with simple melee weapons and shortswords so I don't see what effect this feature has at all except for a multiclass that picks up proficiency in martial weapons or some races that have additional weapon proficiencies not available to a standard monk. Without additional proficiencies this feature does nothing as far as I can tell for a regular monk.

Simple _ranged_ weapons can become Monk weapons now. Of some note, a dedicated shortbow (or sling!?) scales its damage with Martial Arts.

Much more important than the damage scaling (as others have mentioned) is the combo with a (potentially ranged) Ki-Fueled Attack bonus action.

Even a non-Kensei can do a decent impression of the 3-shots-per-turn Kensei trick in Amechra's thread, just less efficiently (shortbow instead of longbow, no option for Deft Strike).

Shadow and Four Elements can both cast a (ranged) spell and make a follow-up ranged attack, even at 3rd level.

MaxWilson
2021-02-17, 02:49 PM
Shadow and Four Elements can both cast a (ranged) spell and make a follow-up ranged attack, even at 3rd level.

Silence + bonus action Stunning Strike is particularly nice. No longer do you have to rely purely on an opportunity attack Stunning Strike to prevent the enemy mage from getting out of the Silence zone!

Focused Aim is likewise helpful for landing those in the first place so that you can attempt Stunning Strike.

x3n0n
2021-02-17, 03:09 PM
Silence + bonus action Stunning Strike is particularly nice. No longer do you have to rely purely on an opportunity attack Stunning Strike to prevent the enemy mage from getting out of the Silence zone!

Focused Aim is likewise helpful for landing those in the first place so that you can attempt Stunning Strike.

Good points and all true, as we discussed in that other thread. :)

Dark.Revenant
2021-02-17, 06:23 PM
Dedicated Weapon gives an actual reason to take Weapon Master: if you happen to find an extremely powerful magic weapon that would qualify for Dedicated Weapon, this is how you'll equip it. I have actually done this.

x3n0n
2021-02-17, 06:40 PM
Dedicated Weapon gives an actual reason to take Weapon Master: if you happen to find an extremely powerful magic weapon that would qualify for Dedicated Weapon, this is how you'll equip it. I have actually done this.

That is awesome! The stars would have to align just right for me to do this. (Not be Kensei, acquire weapon with ASI coming "really soon", and either Dex or Wis odd to justify a half-ASI feat on a Monk.)

MaxWilson
2021-02-17, 06:46 PM
That is awesome! The stars would have to align just right for me to do this. (Not be Kensei, acquire weapon with ASI coming "really soon", and either Dex or Wis odd to justify a half-ASI feat on a Monk.)

AFB but IIRC Weapon Master doesn't let you increase Wis, only Str or Dex.

x3n0n
2021-02-17, 07:26 PM
AFB but IIRC Weapon Master doesn't let you increase Wis, only Str or Dex.

True. I was thinking that it might be acceptable to make both odd and fix them with a split ASI later. The weapon would need to be REALLY good. :)

Dark.Revenant
2021-02-17, 08:16 PM
True. I was thinking that it might be acceptable to make both odd and fix them with a split ASI later. The weapon would need to be REALLY good. :)

This character, a Sun Soul Aarakocra with Mobile, already had tome'd 22 DEX but had an odd 11 STR I could even out, so it wasn't a total waste. I took the feat upon entering 16th level rather than raising Wisdom to 20 in order to use a magic longsword. It's a sentient weapon that hates chromatic dragons, in a campaign where the ultimate goal is to defeat Tiamat's avatar. Beyond some useful abilities (like at-will extended-range Detect Magic, 3/day Invisibility w/o concentration, 3/day Shield), it's a +2 weapon. Against chromatic dragons (Tiamat included), it's +4 instead and does 3d8 additional damage per hit.

It's no exaggeration to say that this character is quite capable of soloing any adult dragon, thanks to this sword.

Hytheter
2021-02-17, 08:46 PM
Dedicated Weapon gives an actual reason to take Weapon Master: if you happen to find an extremely powerful magic weapon that would qualify for Dedicated Weapon, this is how you'll equip it. I have actually done this.

I'd still rather dip fighter, personally.

x3n0n
2021-02-17, 09:35 PM
I'd still rather dip fighter, personally.

Much of the time, I would probably dip Fighter or martial Cleric as well, but if (for example) I knew that a single-level multiclass would prevent me from reaching Diamond Soul or Empty Body and/or the odd Dex lined up, I might go the other way.

T.G. Oskar
2021-02-18, 04:22 AM
Honestly, most of the Tasha's monk options seem more for flavor than function.

DEDICATED WEAPON
[snip]

Monks only start off proficient with simple melee weapons and shortswords so I don't see what effect this feature has at all except for a multiclass that picks up proficiency in martial weapons or some races that have additional weapon proficiencies not available to a standard monk. Without additional proficiencies this feature does nothing as far as I can tell for a regular monk.


Basically:


Devoted Weapon either lets you use weapons granted by your race/multiclass, or it gives you the ability to use darts/shortbows to give you a ranged option.

That sounds about right. Monks don't have a lot of ranged options; turning a dart or a sling into a weapon with increasing damage dice does a lot for them. Not to mention: the greatclub originally can't be chosen because it's a Two-Handed weapon, but Dedicated Weapon bypasses this, giving you a solid 1d8 damage weapon very early on. Furthermore, Shortbows are simple ranged weapons with the Two-Handed property, making them useless normally, but viable with this feature - extending the Monk's range considerably. (80 ft. range is nothing to scoff off.)


KI-FUELED ATTACK
[snip]

Monks can always make a bonus action attack using martial arts. This feature helps edge cases like a shadow monk or four elements that happen to use ki to cast a spell and as a result get one bonus action attack. Useful yes but hardly a game changer.


Ki-Fueled Attack lets you make ranged attacks in conjunction with Devoted Weapon. Or you use it to make BA attacks with a magic weapon.

It also works with Quickened Healing, since it's an action that consumes Ki. You already have a way to use this feature effectively. Sure: Open Hand Monks don't, because Wholeness of Body doesn't require Ki and Quivering Palm is much like Stunning Strike in that it rides off an action. It also triggers from the Sun Soul's Searing Sunburst move and the Mercy Monk's Hand of Healing (and if it's an unarmed strike, follow up with Hand of Harm for a sweet reference to the Shadow Sun Monk from 3.5!).

That said: it is far more effective for Four Elements or Shadow Monks, because they have more uses of Ki that require an Action to trigger.


QUICKENED HEALING
[snip]

It uses your action, but due to Ki fueled strikes you can use a very minor healing ability and still make an attack. Starts at d4+2, d6+3 at level 5 ... however, the amount of healing is so small that it won't typically prevent a character from going down since opponents will do far more damage than that every turn. In addition, 2 ki is worth 2 attempts at stun which will completely shut down an opponent and make them an easy target for everyone else. This is niche and generally not a good use of ki.


Quickened Healing basically lets you turn leftover ki into virtual hit-dice during short rests. It's not a good feature, but it gives you something to do with your ki if you were a little overly conservative (i.e., the boss fight you were expecting doesn't happen until after a short rest).

Do note that it's also a last-resort survival move. Consider that you're basically at 1 HP and surrounded. While you won't be able to make your BA attack with Ki-Fueled Strikes, you can do Step of the Wind and Disengage as a Bonus Action, using your superior speed. It's comparable to the Fighter using its Second Wind + Disengage as an action - it's a repositioning + damage mitigation move, particularly if it helps you reposition close to a character that can heal you further (Paladin or Cleric using Aura of Vitality, Phoenix Cleric, Shepherd or Stars Druid, etc.)

Indeed: two chances at Stunning an opponent (or one chance to stun two opponents) is a much more efficient use of Ki, but Stunning Strike requires a Constitution save against your Ki save DC (which relies on your Wisdom, which may be lower than your Dex unless you choose to go full Astral Self Monk), so it's not as efficient, since it can always fail (or be no-sold, thanks to Legendary Resistance). Sometimes, healing + repositioning can be more tactically efficient than hoping the opponent can be stunned.

But yeah, it could've been a lot more efficient than 2 ki for 1d4+2 healing, 1d10+6 maximum. Think of it as "imagine if you didn't have it"; you don't have to use it, ever, but it's essentially a freebie.


FOCUSED AIM
[snip]

Possibly very expensive with ki, very niche when the character really must hit this time with this attack for some reason. However, if the character is spending ki to try to get another d6+3 (or 4) attack to hit ... what is the point? Again the character is probably much better off spending the ki on stun, or flurry of blows for and extra attack which could crit.


Focused Aim is really good with Sharpshooter if you're doing the ranged thing. It also lets you trigger Ki-Fueled Attack.

I'd be wary of trying to justify Ki-Fueled Attack with Sharpshooter + this, but consider the following:
You're at disadvantage with attack rolls. Your best roll would've succeeded, but your worst roll failed by up to 6 points. Focused Aim turned it into a success. Now, you can trigger a Stunning Strike, potentially negating that disadvantage.
Your opponent succeded on its first save, but it has disadvantage on Con saves (say, because of Mind Sliver, or Bane), and you failed your second attack by 6 or less. Focused Aim makes it a success, allows you to trigger Stunning Strike once again.
You MC'ed with Rogue. That's self-explanatory.
Go nova. You used Flurry of Blows, you used Stunning Strike, and you can use this to make every single attack succeed if you fail one or more. Sure, you'll be out of Ki afterwards, but that can signal the difference between a TPK and a victory.

The thing is, Focused Aim has its uses, and they're more than you might think. It's one of those few features that allow you to succeed on an attack when you desperately need it, and since it has a smart trigger (i.e., it's used after you know you missed with the attack roll, so it's not like you wasted your Ki pointlessly), you can decide when to use it. If that then is "never", it might seem as worthless; however, there's always that moment where you could wish you had a +2 bonus to that attack because otherwise it could've killed the boss, or an annoying creature, and this is the kind of feature that's designed with it in mind.

I wouldn't say they're ribbons. They expand the Monk's options. Do note that they're optional features, in the same way Feats and Multiclassing are: if you find a way to make them work, they're there for you to use.

Speaking of Multiclassing: I haven't passed Dedicated Weapon through my DM, but my build tends to use a Shortbow quite a bit (Rogue 3/Monk 2, though I plan to focus on Monk afterwards, since I got all I wanted from Rogue anyways). I already got a lot of synergy between the two classes: Monks use Shortswords and most single weapons as Monk Weapons, and as long as they're also Finesse or Ranged (i.e. Darts) they also count for Sneak Attack; Cunning Action means I don't have to spend Ki on Step of the Wind unless I want that double jump distance, and I can use Cunning Action to Hide whenever I'm in "ranged" mode. With the Monk (and Rogue!) optional features, there's a lot more I can do:

Shortbows are now Monk Weapons. I can combine Quickened Healing with Ki-Fueled Attack at a distance, and trigger Sneak Attack from that attack. (And any rider effect from the Rogue's subclass features, also; for example, the Phantom's Wails from the Grave.)
Steady Aim or BA Hide + Focused Aim. That means I can add that Sneak Attack damage almost effortlessly.
With Shadow Monk, I can use Invisibility, position myself into a good cover spot, break the Invisibility with Ki-Fueled Attack while taking advantage of the Invisible condition. Alternatively, if I have a way to see in magical darkness: Darkness + Ki-Fueled Attack.

And that's what I can think of. Imagine with stuff like the Poisoner feat...

x3n0n
2021-02-18, 08:52 AM
Not to mention: the greatclub originally can't be chosen because it's a Two-Handed weapon, but Dedicated Weapon bypasses this, giving you a solid 1d8 damage weapon very early on.

One nit: I've never heard of a DM denying the ability to wield a 1d6/1d8 simple versatile melee weapon (quarterstaff or spear) and then attack with both hands, so the 1d8 option isn't new to most tables.


I can combine Quickened Healing with Ki-Fueled Attack at a distance, and trigger Sneak Attack from that attack. (And any rider effect from the Rogue's subclass features, also; for example, the Phantom's Wails from the Grave.)

I am missing something here... Why bother with Quickened Healing instead of just attacking?