2 clerics is a four person party

[nickl_2000]

Do you see issues with there being optimization and role issues with 2 clerics in a four person party? Personal and players issues I can handle with a simple conversation, I don't like to take away fun from others so that will be discussed.

Likely 1 would be a Forge Cleric and the other Twilight, so they have somewhat different focuses in combat.

Does that make each one feel less unique and interesting?

[Eldariel]

Do you see issues with there being 2 clerics in a four person party?

Likely 1 would be a Forge Cleric and the other Twilight, so they have somewhat different focuses in combat.

Does that make each one feel less unique and interesting?

In earlier D&D editions I would've said "absolutely no problem" but given 5e Clerics really lean on just a handful of spells (for instance, it's hard to imagine a Cleric who doesn't prepare Spirit Guardians or Spiritual Weapon), there might be some overlap. Now mind you, it's not a problem; those effects stack just fine and it's powerful enough that it doesn't matter but the two will largely be casting similar spells in combat (luckily there's a bunch of non-Concentration spells on the Cleric list so those offer some variety even though your Concentration is often spoken for).

[Waazraath]

I don't see major issues. There are plenty of interesting concentration spells, no party is bad off with one cleric casting Bless while the other has Spirit Guardians going. 2 spiritual weapons at the same time: fine, and 2 healers, also fine, if the guy doing the revivify's dies, there's somebody to get him back up.

I would sit together before play though, if I'd be one of those clerics, and talk about getting different skills/tools, and what spells to avoid overlap in. That helps each create its own niche, while giving the party as a whole more options.

[stoutstien]

Clerics have very little conflict in all reality. The all cleric party I DM for was almost unstoppable.

[da newt]

It's only a problem if the 2 Players think it's a problem.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I don't see major issues. There are plenty of interesting concentration spells, no party is bad off with one cleric casting Bless while the other has Spirit Guardians going. 2 spiritual weapons at the same time: fine, and 2 healers, also fine, if the guy doing the revivify's dies, there's somebody to get him back up.

I would sit together before play though, if I'd be one of those clerics, and talk about getting different skills/tools, and what spells to avoid overlap in. That helps each create its own niche, while giving the party as a whole more options.

Largely this. I had a Light Cleric so tended to use my 3rd level spells for fireball and upcast Bless to 2nd to give all 4 of our group the benefit. Clerics are tough and well rounded.

[kazaryu]

Do you see issues with there being 2 clerics in a four person party?

Likely 1 would be a Forge Cleric and the other Twilight, so they have somewhat different focuses in combat.

Does that make each one feel less unique and interesting?

this isn't a question we can answer. not really. this is entirely down to the mentality of the Players in question. its doesn't matter how 'reasonable' we think it is. ultimately there's nothing reasonable about the response you fear. its purely emotional, and regardless of how different 2 character are, could harm fun. conversely, even if the two characters were the same subclass, raised in the same temple, and are the same character in everything but name, it could be perfectly fine. it all depends on the players. This is something you *need* to talk to the players in question about.

[nickl_2000]

this isn't a question we can answer. not really. this is entirely down to the mentality of the Players in question. its doesn't matter how 'reasonable' we think it is. ultimately there's nothing reasonable about the response you fear. its purely emotional, and regardless of how different 2 character are, could harm fun. conversely, even if the two characters were the same subclass, raised in the same temple, and are the same character in everything but name, it could be perfectly fine. it all depends on the players. This is something you *need* to talk to the players in question about.

That's fair, which is why I was starting here from a optimization and role perspective. If others have seen 2 clerics in a party feel distinct and fit into different roles.



I don't see major issues. There are plenty of interesting concentration spells, no party is bad off with one cleric casting Bless while the other has Spirit Guardians going. 2 spiritual weapons at the same time: fine, and 2 healers, also fine, if the guy doing the revivify's dies, there's somebody to get him back up.

I would sit together before play though, if I'd be one of those clerics, and talk about getting different skills/tools, and what spells to avoid overlap in. That helps each create its own niche, while giving the party as a whole more options.


Agreed, it is always a good thing to make sure you aren't taking someone else niche and talking things through. As I said above I start here to see if it is even worthwhile from a play perspective that others have seen or if they tend to overlap so much that it's pointless. If I have heard that it is possible, then I look at the people aspect of it and see if it would be fun for everyone involved (and yes that is always something I think about as a player. I offered a DM to replace a character completely because he was frustrated with how easily it was carving through the bad guys, this is about fun for everyone).

[firelistener]

Clerics are probably the only class where I wouldn't question an entire party composed of the same class.

[kazaryu]

That's fair, which is why I was starting here from a optimization and role perspective. If others have seen 2 clerics in a party feel distinct and fit into different roles.


ohhh, hmm, didn't see tha tmentioned in the OP. nvm then. yes, clerics are probably the only class that can comfortably fill any role from a low level. druids maybe.

[LudicSavant]

Do you see issues with there being 2 clerics in a four person party?

Likely 1 would be a Forge Cleric and the other Twilight, so they have somewhat different focuses in combat.

Does that make each one feel less unique and interesting?

You can straight up make a party out of 4 Clerics.

[MrCharlie]

Do you see issues with there being 2 clerics in a four person party?

Likely 1 would be a Forge Cleric and the other Twilight, so they have somewhat different focuses in combat.

Does that make each one feel less unique and interesting?
Absolutely not a problem. Clerics aren't heal bots, and each one has room for unique spell picks and playstyles. A slightly more optimal party might have a light or tempest cleric so they have slightly more diverse spell lists-Twilight is support focused and forge is utility and damage focused, but these lists aren't terribly transformative; nothing like fireball or the tempests suite of AOE.

In general, the only thing the party might end up struggling with is something like antimagic, but antimagic is generally a low blow anyway.

[nickl_2000]

ohhh, hmm, didn't see tha tmentioned in the OP. nvm then. yes, clerics are probably the only class that can comfortably fill any role from a low level. druids maybe.

I didn't say it well enough or clarify. I fixed that, thanks.

[Eldariel]

ohhh, hmm, didn't see tha tmentioned in the OP. nvm then. yes, clerics are probably the only class that can comfortably fill any role from a low level. druids maybe.

Eh, depends on what you mean by "low level". Starting on level 2-3 pretty much all spellcasters can fill any role. Bladesinger and Abjurer make solid Wizard tanks with e.g. Hobgoblin, Githanki, Mountain Dwarf or a generic start especially taking Moderately Armored and going with the full suite of 19 AC + Shield + Absorb Elements. And it's beyond obvious that any spellcaster fills any of the spellcasting roles just fine. Bard is the same, though they need until level 3 to bring out their Valor/Swords (that said, Lore is fine on 3 too thanks to Cutting Words and any Bard can start with Moderately Armored from level 1).

And even without all that, there's Tortle and there's Mage Armor for a Wizard frontliner from level 1 so it's not like it's entirely undoable either; lowish HP but Shield spell and familiar help a lot.


So, I think it's pretty easy for any full caster to party as 4 of the same filling all roles in the party you might want. Sorcerer might have the hardest time at it (and then there's Warlock which can fight just fine but doesn't really do the "casting"-part as well), but Wizard/Druid/Cleric/Bard all party as 4 effortlessly without multiclassing (though one Wizard probably wants to go Jorasco Halfling for some yoyoing as necessary and all the normal revival stuff and such).

[kazaryu]

Eh, depends on what you mean by "low level". Starting on level 2-3 pretty much all spellcasters can fill any role. Bladesinger and Abjurer make solid Wizard tanks with e.g. Hobgoblin, Githanki, Mountain Dwarf or a generic start especially taking Moderately Armored and going with the full suite of 19 AC + Shield + Absorb Elements. And it's beyond obvious that any spellcaster fills any of the spellcasting roles just fine. Bard is the same, though they need until level 3 to bring out their Valor/Swords (that said, Lore is fine on 3 too thanks to Cutting Words and any Bard can start with Moderately Armored from level 1).

And even without all that, there's Tortle and there's Mage Armor for a Wizard frontliner from level 1 so it's not like it's entirely undoable either; lowish HP but Shield spell and familiar help a lot.


So, I think it's pretty easy for any full caster to party as 4 of the same filling all roles in the party you might want. Sorcerer might have the hardest time at it (and then there's Warlock which can fight just fine but doesn't really do the "casting"-part as well), but Wizard/Druid/Cleric/Bard all party as 4 effortlessly without multiclassing (though one Wizard probably wants to go Jorasco Halfling for some yoyoing as necessary and all the normal revival stuff and such).

trouble is that tanking isn't just about AC. obviously a wizard can get a better AC than a cleric. but a cleric has a better hp/hp control. i.e. they can heal themselves. abjurer could be an exception, but it requires them spending a spell slot to get their ward online (at least until you get to level 5, and even then only if you're a deep gnome). and once they do it gives them thp that can only be replenished by spending more of their spell slots. of course, this is assuming a campaign thats designed to actually strain the parties resources. the general consensus is that most people don't play those types of campaigns.

however, i did realize that ranged DPR is a role that low level casters have difficulty filling. ranged cantrips don't keep up in damge with at-will attacks. obviously the caster version of ranged DPR is a blaster, and casters *Can* do that. but 'ranged consistent damage' is a role that casters struggle to fill.

[Eldariel]

trouble is that tanking isn't just about AC. obviously a wizard can get a better AC than a cleric. but a cleric has a better hp/hp control. i.e. they can heal themselves. abjurer could be an exception, but it requires them spending a spell slot to get their ward online (at least until you get to level 5, and even then only if you're a deep gnome). and once they do it gives them thp that can only be replenished by spending more of their spell slots. of course, this is assuming a campaign thats designed to actually strain the parties resources. the general consensus is that most people don't play those types of campaigns.

Well, all Wizards have Shield and Absorb Elements, which goes a long way towards extending your HP pool. HP and resistances/AC are multiplicatory; resistance/AC multiply your HP. So if your HP is a bit lower but you have multipliers, you'll generally end up with a very healthy total. There's False Life too if you just need a raw HP buffer. And Bards of course are default d8 and have other ways to buff their resistances (many Colleges have tools for avoiding hits or buffing temporary HP).


however, i did realize that ranged DPR is a role that low level casters have difficulty filling. ranged cantrips don't keep up in damge with at-will attacks. obviously the caster version of ranged DPR is a blaster, and casters *Can* do that. but 'ranged consistent damage' is a role that casters struggle to fill.

Well, if you have 4 casters you have way more slots so you can afford to burn some for ranged damage.

All the Extra Attack casters can also go Sharpshooter (and CBE/Fighting Initiate if they so choose) - that is to say, Bladesinger, Blade and Valor Bard (Blade's maneuvers even work at range, conveniently enough). Thanks to buff spells the investment will remain useful. Moreover, on levels 1-4 there isn't much difference between a 16 Dex caster and a 16 Dex anyone else fighting with a Light Crossbow or whatever. On the contrary, sustained ranged DPS on those levels is practically class agnostic. It's only feats and weapons, which casters too do have access to. On higher levels it is also partially something you can outsource to e.g. skeletons. There's also the question of how much it matters if your DPS options are ranged or melee if you can conjure them up within attack range of the enemy.

But yeah, this pretty much only concerns Cleric on Tier 2; other casters have reasonable or good solutions. It is true that Cleric Cantrips aren't that efficient at range (though they can at least get Potent Cantrip as a rider and Divine Strike does apply to ranged attacks too but lacking Extra Attack sucks), with a maximum of 60' outside Arcana and Death Clerics who can get 120' cantrips from class features. Druids have sorta problem with this too; they can turn to apes and eventually giant apes via Polymorph and throw rocks but honestly, their best bet is just conjuring stuff up close and letting them deal with it. Eventually Summon Celestial gives Clerics a similar option of summoning a shooter for ranged DPR.

[MoiMagnus]

I find it really important for them to chose different background, so that they end up with different skill sets. The main danger IMO is both cleric having almost the same skills, and skill redundancy is IME more frustrating than class redundancy.

But taking extreme opposites, a Str/Con/Wis cleric plays fundamentally differently compared to a Dex/Wis/Cha cleric.

[ImproperJustice]

Clerics have very little conflict in all reality. The all cleric party I DM for was almost unstoppable.

Did they call themselves the A-Men?

[JackalTornMoons]

A peace/twilight combo is probably the best duo you could add to any party.

[stoutstien]

Did they call themselves the A-Men?
Close. They called themselves CPR and for the life of me I can't remember what the acronym stood for. Sucks getting old. I think it was cleanses something and rites.

[HolyAvenger7]

Forge screams Tank
Twilight can tank, but also performs superbly in a support /control role, especially at early levels with sleep and faerie fire.
Focus on roles and who can fill them rather than classes.

[Merudo]

Channel Divinity: Twilight Sanctuary + Animate Objects is pretty brutal. Suddenly these 10 tiny objects don't just have 20 HPs, they also have 10-15 THP each that regen each turn.

[kazaryu]

Well, all Wizards have Shield and Absorb Elements, which goes a long way towards extending your HP pool. HP and resistances/AC are multiplicatory; resistance/AC multiply your HP. So if your HP is a bit lower but you have multipliers, you'll generally end up with a very healthy total. There's False Life too if you just need a raw HP buffer. And Bards of course are default d8 and have other ways to buff their resistances (many Colleges have tools for avoiding hits or buffing temporary HP).
ehh, sort of. stacking AC only defends against one type of damage, and if you're intending to tank then chances are you wanna save your reaction for shield. since you can't use both shield and absorb elements in the same round. and yet, if absorb elements is in play, then you're likely to encounter both elemental and attack based damage. it just seems a bit too unreliable at low level. great for secondary melee, but as primary in a game where roles actually matter? not the greatest. meanwhile clerics not only inherently have a larger health pool. if you're building a cleric to tank, they can also indirectly have a larger health pool due to the fact that they need to invest less in dex, so they can focus con secondary. and while damge mitigation is important, straight health is far more reliable.




Well, if you have 4 casters you have way more slots so you can afford to burn some for ranged damage.

All the Extra Attack casters can also go Sharpshooter (and CBE/Fighting Initiate if they so choose) - that is to say, Bladesinger, Blade and Valor Bard (Blade's maneuvers even work at range, conveniently enough). Thanks to buff spells the investment will remain useful. Moreover, on levels 1-4 there isn't much difference between a 16 Dex caster and a 16 Dex anyone else fighting with a Light Crossbow or whatever. On the contrary, sustained ranged DPS on those levels is practically class agnostic. It's only feats and weapons, which casters too do have access to. On higher levels it is also partially something you can outsource to e.g. skeletons. There's also the question of how much it matters if your DPS options are ranged or melee if you can conjure them up within attack range of the enemy. sure, at low levels they can. to be clear, the reason i specified 'at low levels' when discussing clerics is because at higher levels any caster can be built to fill any role. (well, with the exception of sustained DPR). and that was before bringing up ranged dpr. so yeah, fair enough. i'll agree that sustained ranged dpr is definitely something anyone can do at low levels, they'd still fall off at higher levels. (well, at level 5 for most of them).

actually, i'll make an obvious exception: warlocks make great sustained DPR.



But yeah, this pretty much only concerns Cleric on Tier 2; other casters have reasonable or good solutions. It is true that Cleric Cantrips aren't that efficient at range (though they can at least get Potent Cantrip as a rider and Divine Strike does apply to ranged attacks too but lacking Extra Attack sucks), with a maximum of 60' outside Arcana and Death Clerics who can get 120' cantrips from class features. Druids have sorta problem with this too; they can turn to apes and eventually giant apes via Polymorph and throw rocks but honestly, their best bet is just conjuring stuff up close and letting them deal with it. Eventually Summon Celestial gives Clerics a similar option of summoning a shooter for ranged DPR.

i think you and i are using hte term 'ranged dpr differently. my fault, i used poor phrasing. im not just talking about single target damage thats done per turn in a given fight. im talking about being able to (near) indefinitely output some baseline damage at a range. and summoning a celestial doesn't IMO fill that criteria, because eventually the summon drops. this may jsut be nitpicking, but it is how i was thinking. But i think we're both agreed regardless that at high levels Caster's are able to fill a lot of roles comfortably, the biggest limitations only exist at low levels.

[Eldariel]

ehh, sort of. stacking AC only defends against one type of damage, and if you're intending to tank then chances are you wanna save your reaction for shield. since you can't use both shield and absorb elements in the same round. and yet, if absorb elements is in play, then you're likely to encounter both elemental and attack based damage. it just seems a bit too unreliable at low level. great for secondary melee, but as primary in a game where roles actually matter? not the greatest. meanwhile clerics not only inherently have a larger health pool. if you're building a cleric to tank, they can also indirectly have a larger health pool due to the fact that they need to invest less in dex, so they can focus con secondary. and while damge mitigation is important, straight health is far more reliable.

Well, 16/16/16 is a statline accessible to anyone so in that sense, it's hard for Clerics to have more HP than Wizards for instance. Though of course a bit higher up, going Dwarfish race and putting the 17 in Con does work which is fair enough (OTOH same can be done with e.g. Hobgoblin Wizard going Moderately Armored)

[kazaryu]

Well, 16/16/16 is a statline accessible to anyone so in that sense, it's hard for Clerics to have more HP than Wizards for instance. Though of course a bit higher up, going Dwarfish race and putting the 17 in Con does work which is fair enough (OTOH same can be done with e.g. Hobgoblin Wizard going Moderately Armored)

clerics have a d8 HD. wizards would need to have a higher con mod in order to catch up to cleric. whereas a cleric is fairly safe to dump dex in order to boost their con. overall clerics always have the advantage in HP. even moreso when you consider that a cleric benefits from the racial ability scores of dwarfs. meaning they can get the 'free' 1hp per level without having to sacrifice much in the way of ability scores. of course race matters less (or possibly not at all?) if Tasha's is in play. I haven't actually looked at the rules in there regarding ancestry, but i do know that it allows a level of customization.

[Eldariel]

clerics have a d8 HD. wizards would need to have a higher con mod in order to catch up to cleric. whereas a cleric is fairly safe to dump dex in order to boost their con. overall clerics always have the advantage in HP. even moreso when you consider that a cleric benefits from the racial ability scores of dwarfs. meaning they can get the 'free' 1hp per level without having to sacrifice much in the way of ability scores. of course race matters less (or possibly not at all?) if Tasha's is in play. I haven't actually looked at the rules in there regarding ancestry, but i do know that it allows a level of customization.

Yeah, there's 1 HP/level difference but that's rarely the difference between a hit downing you and not downing you. Generally, if you have a reasonable base number, the multipliers are more impactful than the base stats. Custom Lineage are basically just +2 to a stat plus bonus feat plus darkvision (optimally); a strict sidegrade to Vuman depending on your goal (enables +4 base stat on level 1 but at the cost of your feat on half-feat and your secondary stats being +2 at best).

If you mean effect on normal races, there's just a reshuffle so you can assign the scores anywhere (so Dwarf works for a Wizard as well as a Cleric). Hobgoblin Wizard is actually an example of doing the exact same thing with a Wizard instead of a Cleric; but it takes until level 4 to take Moderately Armored and thus become exceptionally tanky (Absorb Elements + Shield + 19 AC is a pretty good set of defenses vs. virtually anything and you have Saving Face for any unusual saves or such too and Abjurer could add +2 HP per levelish + extra HP from Int and any Reactions you cast).

[kazaryu]

Yeah, there's 1 HP/level difference but that's rarely the difference between a hit downing you and not downing you. Generally, if you have a reasonable base number, the multipliers are more impactful than the base stats. Custom Lineage are basically just +2 to a stat plus bonus feat plus darkvision (optimally); a strict sidegrade to Vuman depending on your goal (enables +4 base stat on level 1 but at the cost of your feat on half-feat and your secondary stats being +2 at best).

If you mean effect on normal races, there's just a reshuffle so you can assign the scores anywhere (so Dwarf works for a Wizard as well as a Cleric). Hobgoblin Wizard is actually an example of doing the exact same thing with a Wizard instead of a Cleric; but it takes until level 4 to take Moderately Armored and thus become exceptionally tanky (Absorb Elements + Shield + 19 AC is a pretty good set of defenses vs. virtually anything and you have Saving Face for any unusual saves or such too and Abjurer could add +2 HP per levelish + extra HP from Int and any Reactions you cast).

fair enough, i figured normal races would probably not matter then. but now you're talking a trade off. Bladesingers get a really good AC, at the cost of being extremely MAD. Abjurers get good bulk, at the cost of available spell slots and the ability to be a viable threat in melee. neither one is all that great at filling the 'tank' role in a campaign where roles actually matter. a wizard by itself doesn't *have* a good base HP to multiply. a bladesinger has pretty good multipliers, but low HP so its not really stacking well. Abjurers have good base HP, but weaker multipliers (and lack offense if you're intending to use them to soak damage) Clerics meanwhile natively have both decent bulk and decent AC. They're less mad, as they don't need to invest in DEX as much for their defenses. and have the ability to heal themselves if need be. and while healing isn't typically an efficient use of an action in combat. it is most efficient at low levels, where a single cure wounds can heal for a huge % of a PC's HP.

im not doubting that a wizard can soak damage, but you need to be able to do more than just soak damage in order to tank.

[stoutstien]

Having a larger HD is more than one hp per level. It's also makes spending them during short rests more impactful so during longer days you have both a higher hp and effective hp.

Doesn't mean wizard tanks are bad by any means.

[LudicSavant]

You're really missing out on what Wizard tanks are capable of, kazaryu! You can do so much more than that.


abjurer could be an exception, but it requires them spending a spell slot to get their ward online They don't require that at all. They get the initial ward for free. Moreover, you don't spend a slot just to regenerate the ward... you spend a slot to do whatever that spell does, and then get extra hit points as a bonus, and it adds up. On top of that, there are multiple ways to recharge it without expending slots.


but a cleric has a better hp/hp control. i.e. they can heal themselves.
Healer Wizard builds are actually a thing, and they're very, very good at their jobs.

Even if you're not playing one of those, Wizard spells tend to be at least comparable in value to Cleric ones, even if the hp preservation doesn't come directly in the form of Cure Wounds or the like.


(at least until you get to level 5, and even then only if you're a deep gnome). and once they do it gives them thp that can only be replenished by spending more of their spell slots. There's actually quite a few ways to replenish it without using spell slots. And Deep Gnome is one of them!

Also, not sure what you have to wait until level 5 for. You can get an endlessly regenerating ward at level 2.


of course, this is assuming a campaign thats designed to actually strain the parties resources.
The problem here isn't what kind of campaign you're in. It's just that you're not taking full advantage of your class's abilities.

[Eldariel]

im not doubting that a wizard can soak damage, but you need to be able to do more than just soak damage in order to tank.

Wizards do perform the tank duties better than most tanks. Their biggest advantage? Normally tanks need a way to make enemies focus them. Nothing draws focus like a high value Concentration spell or being a high threat spellcaster in general. So Wizard has the undivided focus of the enemy by default; they only need to make themselves both a desirable and an impossible target to excel at their job.

I'm also not sure 5e really has campaigns where roles matter. All "any full caster" can probably, even without having a tank, take on tougher and longer adventuring days than normal mixed party. Tanking can always be outsourced to minions starting level 5; at that point damage just costs you spell slots at worst instead of HP/HD, except when enemy is capable of attacking at extreme range and all your perception abilities fail (in which case they'd probably fail for any party). And on lower levels, sufficient alpha to take down the truly dangerous encounters probably conserves more overall party resources than someone with slightly lower likelihood of taking hits or ability to take few more hits making a character with slots that make enemy unable to hurt you probably more valuable than a character with some minor defensive boons.

[kazaryu]

Wizards do perform the tank duties better than most tanks. Their biggest advantage? Normally tanks need a way to make enemies focus them. Nothing draws focus like a high value Concentration spell or being a high threat spellcaster in general. So Wizard has the undivided focus of the enemy by default; they only need to make themselves both a desirable and an impossible target to excel at their job.

I'm also not sure 5e really has campaigns where roles matter. All "any full caster" can probably, even without having a tank, take on tougher and longer adventuring days than normal mixed party. Tanking can always be outsourced to minions starting level 5; at that point damage just costs you spell slots at worst instead of HP/HD, except when enemy is capable of attacking at extreme range and all your perception abilities fail (in which case they'd probably fail for any party). And on lower levels, sufficient alpha to take down the truly dangerous encounters probably conserves more overall party resources than someone with slightly lower likelihood of taking hits or ability to take few more hits making a character with slots that make enemy unable to hurt you probably more valuable than a character with some minor defensive boons.

campaigns where filling roles matter exist. they jsut require several combats between long rests. the point being that you need to strain the party's resources. for casters thats mostly spell slots, for martials its HP. the purpose of a tank (in a ttrpg) is to minimize the amount of damage being thrown the party's way, so that casters need to spend fewer resources defending themselves. As such, a campaign where a tank is important, is a campaign in which spell slots are limited.

the concentration thing is also why i specified 'low level' for my initial statement. casters don't have the spell slots to maintain a 'high value concentration spell' while also spending their spell slots to keep themselves alive consistently. not over multiple fights. and summons can't always be used for tanking, that particular strategy is failry reliant on getting a good initiative check. IF the wizard goes last, then by the time he's got his summons up the enemy will have closed distance, but overall i won't speculate on the competence of a full caster party. the way most campaigns are run it'd certainly not be a problem

[Eldariel]

campaigns where filling roles matter exist. they jsut require several combats between long rests. the point being that you need to strain the party's resources. for casters thats mostly spell slots, for martials its HP. the purpose of a tank (in a ttrpg) is to minimize the amount of damage being thrown the party's way, so that casters need to spend fewer resources defending themselves. As such, a campaign where a tank is important, is a campaign in which spell slots are limited.

the concentration thing is also why i specified 'low level' for my initial statement. casters don't have the spell slots to maintain a 'high value concentration spell' while also spending their spell slots to keep themselves alive consistently. not over multiple fights. and summons can't always be used for tanking, that particular strategy is failry reliant on getting a good initiative check. IF the wizard goes last, then by the time he's got his summons up the enemy will have closed distance, but overall i won't speculate on the competence of a full caster party. the way most campaigns are run it'd certainly not be a problem

I don't see how that really matters. A Wizard is a good frontliner whether you have 1 or 10 fights per long rest; they have reasonable at-will and superb resources so for each fight where things get rough, Wizards can pull out a tool to make life easier. Whether you spread those tools between 1 or 10 encounters, you'll probably have enough for all the Shields and Absorb Elements you need to cast and then you have your at-wills and offensive spells for when the situation calls for it. On level 5, Arcane Recovery lets you recover 3 Shields already.

[KorvinStarmast]

It's only a problem if the 2 Players think it's a problem. We have a winner.

For the OP: who are the other two PCs who are not clerics?

Notional Four Cleric party:

1 Arcana Domain
1 Forge Domain
1 Life or Twilight Domain
1 Knowledge Domain (1/2 elf for added skills and better charisma, party face)

I can see that group doing very well in general, but the after dinner discussions that get to philosophy and religion might get a little testy. :smallbiggrin:

[nickl_2000]

We have a winner.

For the OP: who are the other two PCs who are not clerics?

Notional Four Cleric party:

1 Arcana Domain
1 Forge Domain
1 Life or Twilight Domain
1 Knowledge Domain (1/2 elf for added skills and better charisma, party face)

I can see that group doing very well in general, but the after dinner discussions that get to philosophy and religion might get a little testy. :smallbiggrin:

Due to this thread we actually discussed naming the team the A-Men. After the group laughing/getting angry with me, I think there is a decent chance we will see a 4 cleric party.

1 Forge Domain
1 Twilight Domain
1 Order Domain
1 Arcana Domain

[KorvinStarmast]

Due to this thread we actually discussed naming the team the A-Men. Bravo!

After the group laughing/getting angry with me, I think there is a decent chance we will see a 4 cleric party.

1 Forge Domain
1 Twilight Domain
1 Order Domain
1 Arcana Domain Nice mix! Hope it goes well.

[DwarfFighter]

Close. They called themselves CPR and for the life of me I can't remember what the acronym stood for. Sucks getting old. I think it was cleanses something and rites.

Cleanse, Purge, Repeat.

-DF

[GreyBlack]

Do you see issues with there being optimization and role issues with 2 clerics in a four person party? Personal and players issues I can handle with a simple conversation, I don't like to take away fun from others so that will be discussed.

Likely 1 would be a Forge Cleric and the other Twilight, so they have somewhat different focuses in combat.

Does that make each one feel less unique and interesting?

I'm 99% certain you could have a group of 4 clerics that all feel unique and interesting.

You don't have to worry about role overlap.