Would an Eldritch Knight Monk or Arcane Trickster Monk be Overpowered?

[dmhelp]

How powerful would a Monk be if the DM let you pick up Eldritch Knight (losing your 5th tier power since Monks only get 4 subclass powers) or Arcane Trickster as variant subclasses?

Would it present any problems game balance wise or would it be fine?

[ProsecutorGodot]

Probably not very strong, I definitely wouldn't want to play one.

[x3n0n]

How powerful would a Monk be if the DM let you pick up Eldritch Knight (losing your 5th tier power since Monks only get 4 subclass powers) or Arcane Trickster as variant subclasses?

Would it present any problems game balance wise or would it be fine?

Just to make sure I follow, here are my assumptions: Start with base Monk.
* Monk 3: wizards spells casting with Wisdom, with a 2-school limitation similar to EK/AT, same known-spell and slot progression. Appealing!
* Monk 3: What second feature? Neither looks particularly appealing as written (Bonus action clog, no weapons needed)
* Monk 6: Again, what feature? Neither War Magic (bonus action) nor Magical Ambush (hiding?) looks very appealing as written.
* Monk 11: Eldritch Strike looks much better than Versatile Trickster here (Monk is already SO busy with bonus actions)
* Monk 17: All candidate features look unappealing. Arcane Charge: no action surge. Improved War Magic: see War Magic. Spell Thief: meh.

Am I missing anything?
If not, that leaves a lot of features to fill in, IMO.

Edit: FWIW, a few months ago someone posted an (IMO) appealing cleric-spell ki-caster, similar to Elemonk, but with additional free castings and real features.
That felt more flavorful to me. https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?619489-Opinions-on-Monk-Sub-class-The-Blessed

[minute]

Probably not. If you wanted to make use of the Monk's unarmored defense and stunning strike, you want a good wisdom. You obviously need a good dexterity, and for both subclasses you mentioned you need a good intelligence. You also want a decent constitution since Monks/Rogues only have a d8 hit die, and also to keep concentration

[Witty Username]

It would not present any problems with game balance.

[adb82]

I dont see any problem with game balance.

but monk/wizard is totally MAD, maybe you can think to go couple dip BS for boost armor class, or war wizard...but no more and not sure even this its really worth.

Monk/rogue can work fine, 3 dip give you canning action that make you save Ki points, some SA, expertise and a subclass. Assassin for try crit with all the monk attacks (but it can be anyway kinda difficult to get an enemy surprised, depend on your DM how he rules it), while arcane trickster give you shield spell.

In both case dump int and use only spells that dont need a saving and dont ask you to hit with a magic attacks.

I would absoutly not reccomand to play monk/wizard.

EDIT you asked about EK, my bad, with EK can work kinda well, maybe 3/4 dip, depnding on how much you need that asi, but nothing about giving problem with game balance. It also give you shield spell 3 times a day, which is good, dueling fighting style (or if you get Kensei than TWF), and action surge (even this is another BA).

In my experience, what gives problem with balance the game in this edition, except some very specific build, is only Paladin/sorcer and, a bit less, Paladin/warlock, Paladin/bard and sorcerer/warlock. Paladin/sorcerer well optimized can go alone with no party and be anyway OP lol. All other things are pretty well balanced, multiclassing can be a big trap choosing the wrong dip or the wrong moment for dip.

[Talionis]

Just to make sure I follow, here are my assumptions: Start with base Monk.
* Monk 3: wizards spells casting with Wisdom, with a 2-school limitation similar to EK/AT, same known-spell and slot progression. Appealing!
* Monk 3: What second feature? Neither looks particularly appealing as written (Bonus action clog, no weapons needed)
* Monk 6: Again, what feature? Neither War Magic (bonus action) nor Magical Ambush (hiding?) looks very appealing as written.
* Monk 11: Eldritch Strike looks much better than Versatile Trickster here (Monk is already SO busy with bonus actions)
* Monk 17: All candidate features look unappealing. Arcane Charge: no action surge. Improved War Magic: see War Magic. Spell Thief: meh.

Am I missing anything?
If not, that leaves a lot of features to fill in, IMO.

Edit: FWIW, a few months ago someone posted an (IMO) appealing cleric-spell ki-caster, similar to Elemonk, but with additional free castings and real features.
That felt more flavorful to me. https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?619489-Opinions-on-Monk-Sub-class-The-Blessed
No it’s not overpowered. Generally Monk is underpowered and 4E is a weaker Arcane Trickster or Eldritch Knight. Casting off spell slots would’ve been smarter for 4E, since casting doesn’t hurt Rogue or Fighter resources.

But it’s not a 1-1 conversion. I’d change the casting stat to Wisdom. The minor archetype abilities would need tweaking.

[stoutstien]

No it’s not overpowered. Generally Monk is underpowered and 4E is a weaker Arcane Trickster or Eldritch Knight. Casting off spell slots would’ve been smarter for 4E, since casting doesn’t hurt Rogue or Fighter resources.

But it’s not a 1-1 conversion. I’d change the casting stat to Wisdom. The minor archetype abilities would need tweaking.

4E monks aren't really weaker than AT or EK just not as flexible. The number of fireballs they can drop in a day is pretty impressive.

[Willie the Duck]

No it’s not overpowered. Generally Monk is underpowered and 4E is a weaker Arcane Trickster or Eldritch Knight. Casting off spell slots would’ve been smarter for 4E, since casting doesn’t hurt Rogue or Fighter resources.
But it’s not a 1-1 conversion. I’d change the casting stat to Wisdom. The minor archetype abilities would need tweaking.

4E monks aren't really weaker than AT or EK just not as flexible. The number of fireballs they can drop in a day is pretty impressive.
Tasha's gave 4e monks a real boost, by letting them still do their bonus action attack(s) in rounds they use their 4e abilities.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

No it’s not overpowered. Generally Monk is underpowered and 4E is a weaker Arcane Trickster or Eldritch Knight. Casting off spell slots would’ve been smarter for 4E, since casting doesn’t hurt Rogue or Fighter resources.

But it’s not a 1-1 conversion. I’d change the casting stat to Wisdom. The minor archetype abilities would need tweaking.

Wisdom to me makes more sense to, which leads me to think it makes more sense to use Clerical spells. I do like the idea of a 1/3 divine caster monk. I think it's thematic, but maybe not the theme the OP was going for.

[Talionis]

4E monks aren't really weaker than AT or EK just not as flexible. The number of fireballs they can drop in a day is pretty impressive.
A lot depends on DM and getting short rests. But neither Rogue or Fighter have resource like Chi. 4Es problems are very small choice in spells and using the same Chi resource that most of the Monk abilities come from.

[Angelalex242]

Instead of this, just make 4 Elements Monk not so friggin ki point expensive.

[Zuras]

Building a 4 Elements style monk using spell slots instead of ki isn’t going to create something over-powered.

The monk is one of the weaker classes overall, and neither the EK nor AT are on the high end of the power curve. The only way you could end up with something even slightly overpowered is by somehow allowing stunning strike and spellcasting simultaneously, like allowing booming blade plus stunning strike plus a flurry of blows, and even that is probably not overpowered except in comparison to other monks.

[Angelalex242]

Not even that.

I'd just say reduce all ki points of 4 elements to 1.

That's all they need.

[x3n0n]

Not even that.

I'd just say reduce all ki points of 4 elements to 1.

That's all they need.

To be fair, that's pretty powerful once you pass level 11 and get access to Fireball. Even at 3 ki per casting (vs 4 ki RAW), that would be 4 per short rest at level 12, often 8x or 12x daily. At 1 ki per casting, 36 daily Fireballs seems a bit much.

[Kane0]

How powerful would a Monk be if the DM let you pick up Eldritch Knight (losing your 5th tier power since Monks only get 4 subclass powers) or Arcane Trickster as variant subclasses?

Would it present any problems game balance wise or would it be fine?

Should be fine, wouldn't be the strongest monk subclass.

[Angelalex242]

To be fair, that's pretty powerful once you pass level 11 and get access to Fireball. Even at 3 ki per casting (vs 4 ki RAW), that would be 4 per short rest at level 12, often 8x or 12x daily. At 1 ki per casting, 36 daily Fireballs seems a bit much.

Even if you have 36 fireballs, this monk isn't significantly more powerful than any other class, unless you're running war where you need 36 fireballs.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Even if you have 36 fireballs, this monk isn't significantly more powerful than any other class, unless you're running war where you need 36 fireballs.

Surely the solution isn't to make the 4E's identity "I cast fireball all day" though? Seems like a lazy fix, especially if you think afterwards it doesn't make them all that much more powerful.

Which, I disagree with, you'd be rocking a higher AC and hit point total than your fireball slinging competitors with strong martial ability as a fallback.

[Angelalex242]

Surely the solution isn't to make the 4E's identity "I cast fireball all day" though? Seems like a lazy fix, especially if you think afterwards it doesn't make them all that much more powerful.

Which, I disagree with, you'd be rocking a higher AC and hit point total than your fireball slinging competitors with strong martial ability as a fallback.

But fireball is all they've got.

It's like a wand of fire with 36 charges.

The actual mage is more like a staff of the magi.

[ProsecutorGodot]

But fireball is all they've got.

It's like a wand of fire with 36 charges.

The actual mage is more like a staff of the magi.

I mean, an "actual mage" would be a full caster, which 4E isn't designed to emulate. Your quick fix makes that comparison possible, but not in any good way imo.

If you want to cast Fireball all the time, play a full caster. 4E is for the Monk who wants to cast a spell every now and then, because there are going to be a lot of times where you fall back on your base class features instead.

[x3n0n]

Even if you have 36 fireballs, this monk isn't significantly more powerful than any other class, unless you're running war where you need 36 fireballs.

FWIW, I rather like the limiting mechanism they used in the dragon-themed UA: a small number (proficiency bonus or ability mod) of "free" long-rest uses, and then spending ki for additional uses.

That gets me a lot more uses at low levels where ki is a problem without crazy scaling issues at the top.

The only thing I *dislike* about that is that the first few don't interact with Tasha's Ki-Fueled Attack.

[Kane0]

The 4E monk discussion might be a bit derailing, there's plenty of houserule and homebrew fixes for them out there.

[Angelalex242]

That's fair. The idea is to make 4E

A: not the worst monk type
and B: actually a good or even great monk type.

[ProsecutorGodot]

That's fair. The idea is to make 4E

A: not the worst monk type
and B: actually a good or even great monk type.

I'd say with the addition of Tasha's it's probably not the worst Monk subclass and qualifies as Good.

Simply allowing AT or EK to be chosen with no changes would make them heaps worse.

[kikagezumi]

No, I don't think they would, however, what about a 6 level bladesinger dip? You get cantrip damage folded into your martial arts damage.