[Legendary Games] [PF] Kheshig Open Playtest. An Akashic Frontliner. [Archive]

AGrinningCat

2021-02-18, 05:32 PM

Welcome to the Kheshig open play test! Rajah author here with another Akashic class! This new akashic frontliner is now available for playtesting and your games. The Kheshig excels at drawing enemy fire to themselves, protecting weaker allies from dangerous foes.

For those of whom who are wondering about the Kheshig, it is a tanky class created to introduce people to Akasha by creating a high power floor via its generous class features, allowing the player to choose veils at their leisure and learn how veilweaving works, without worrying about hamstringing themselves too much.

For those who have experience with Akasha, the Kheshig introduces 48 new veils (and a few feats) to help round out your veilweavers, or give them new tricks.

All in all, I hope that you enjoy this class, and if you have any issues, please let me know!

This playtest will be running from 2/18 to 3/11, with a ranged archetype coming on 3/4.

You can find the playtest here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1otBsIYlGjh2ZssbTKjOf9MWOvDB8uJ2QMsLAz2oENOc/edit?usp=sharing)

StSword

2021-02-19, 08:30 AM

AGrinningCat

2021-02-19, 10:25 AM

It's a pretty busy class, so I don't even know where there would be room to add more stuff, but....

It just bugs me that they can get two combat styles, allowing them to adapt to which is more beneficial to the fight, but are stuck with one chosen armor specialization.

That just might be me, I admit.

That's a valid point! My counter point would be -- How often do you switch armors? Especially in combat! You can get two weapon styles since a lot of weapon veils can use one or the other (dancing glaive can use two handed, unarmed, or twf, for example), but you typically can't benefit from unarmored and heavy armor at the same time.

Volfogg

2021-02-19, 11:53 AM

AGrinningCat

2021-02-19, 01:54 PM

I am liking the class a great deal! I have read it through once, and will need to do so again, to provide a more detailed response, however, the following are just two things that popped out to me (nothing wrong per se):

1 - Titan Weapon Style: This does not grant a bonus feat like the the other styles, not sure it really matters, but thought that I would point it out as I like a certain pattern when it comes to class ability progression.
2 - Juggernaut Blade: Why not simply allow the blade to function as a heavy steel shield (albeit one that offers the shield bonus to AC per the ability write-up)?

More to follow once I give this another once over. :)

Cheers
Volf

Thank you for reading the class and posting! For your concerns:

1 - Titan weapon style is the dedicated 2h style. Unlike other 'styles' in pathfinder, 2h really has no need for feat support since 2h works right out the gate, so it got something else in its stead
2 - There isn't any direct reason -- So I've changed Juggernaut blade to be more accommodating for shield usage.

Volfogg

2021-02-19, 05:50 PM

Thank you for reading the class and posting! For your concerns:
It's a great class! Thanks for sharing.

1 - Titan weapon style is the dedicated 2h style. Unlike other 'styles' in pathfinder, 2h really has no need for feat support since 2h works right out the gate, so it got something else in its stead
Makes sense to me!

2 - There isn't any direct reason -- So I've changed Juggernaut blade to be more accommodating for shield usage.
This change is perfect!

Another thing that's been nagging me is the lack of being able to apply either a) enhancement bonuses to their veils [Enhanced] or b) a progression, similar to the monk ki pool ability, whereby progression in the class allows their veils [Enhanced] to overcome certain damage reduction types. Maybe something like the following:

Akashic Anvil (Su): Within the confines of the Kheshig's body there exists an akashic anvil with which he is able to temper and reforge his veils [Enhanced] into ever more powerful forms. As the Kheshig progresses his mastery over his internal magical energies grant the following benefits when wielding his veils [Enhanced]:

At xth level, akashic anvil allows his veils [Enhanced] to be treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
At xth level, his veils [Enhanced] are also treated as cold iron and silver for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
At xth level, his veils [Enhanced] are also treated as an alignment type possessed by the Kheshig.
At xth level, his veils [Enhanced] are treated as adamantine weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction and bypassing hardness.

Another option would be a feat, similar to Craft Magic Arms and Armor, which allows a Kheshig to enhance his veils [Enhanced].

Cheers
Volf

StSword

2021-02-19, 07:06 PM

That's a valid point! My counter point would be -- How often do you switch armors? Especially in combat! You can get two weapon styles since a lot of weapon veils can use one or the other (dancing glaive can use two handed, unarmed, or twf, for example), but you typically can't benefit from unarmored and heavy armor at the same time.

Actually, that's part of why the rules as written bug me- since generally you can only benefit from one armor at a time, giving them more armor specializations wouldn't increase their power level in a fight one iota.

So why force them to specialize in one type of armor forever and ever and ever?

What exactly would it break if it were "armor adaptation: they gain the listed benefit whenever they wear the appropriate armor?" Would that have anyone say "OP, please nerf?"

The Aegis class has a similar class feature, and they actually do have the ability to switch what kind of armor they wear in combat.

Or if the class feature allowed them to retrain the class feature if a light armor specialist runs into a really sweet suit of heavy armor, or if they had a religious epiphany and decided to multiclass into monk?

"Like with an hour of combat practice in which they wear (or not wear in the case of unarmored) the appropriate armor, the character can switch what type of armor they specialize in?"

Efrate

2021-02-19, 10:34 PM

I did a brief skim but initial questions.

Are any of their veils shapable by other classes? A few seem great for Rajah and those seem like an excellent pair. Other seem perfect for a Path of the Crafter Vizier, but that could be stepping on DSP toes so I get it. Ask them maybe, they are around here. Is this planned to be updated?

In the same vein, are any veils usable by other veilweavers shapeable by them? If so which? Or if not a comprehensive list any idea of the type of veils that could be?

I will build one soon to check some numbers, I am running a heavily akashic game and there is a big tournament coming up that I can easily drop a new exotic fighter into to see how they fare.

Elves

2021-02-20, 03:29 AM

This class needs its theme to be focused and pulled to the forefront. For an incarnum bodyguard class, the obvious thing is shaping soulmelds on your chosen "charge" rather than on yourself -- or perhaps having "sympathetic" soulmelds that manifest on both yourself and your target, granting synergistic effects (ie, lets you each take 1 extra 5 foot step per round per invested essentia, but only if it brings you closer to the other).

The bulwark "improved" benefit is good, it's clean and thematic. The other fighting styles have nothing to do with the class theme and should be deleted -- the class is too crammed and they don't contribute anything.

The class could use more fluff. I'm not getting what the fluff is around akashic mark. It seems all over the place. What's the connection between a Mongolian bodyguard and teleporting behind someone? More importantly, how is this an "akashic" mark? If this is an incarnum tank class, its mark mechanism needs to interact with incarnum. Just slapping the name on doesn't do anything. It seems like its soulmelds don't even have any interaction with the mark.

The mark's effects seems a little scattered -- it's like all the marks from 4e classes rolled into one. How about incorporating the combat style choice into the Akashic Mark ability? Ie, it provides the basic effect and then an additional effect based on your combat style choice. One could be teleporting, one could be blocking, one could be AoOs. Then the 5th and 17th level upgrades would stay for all. Or each soulmeld could add an effect to your mark when chakra bound.

Armored by Akasha has the same problem as weapon styles. No connection to either the class theme or to the incarnum/akasha subsystem.

The idea of a mystic eastern oriental bodyguard in a brass mask, utterly devoted to their emperor or khan or rajah, has potential and an incarnum tank would be cool but the class doesn't deliver on its theme. Theme, theme, theme.

(Even if you don't want to go all in on the bodyguard theme and just want it to be a frontliner, the lack of soulmeld/essentia interaction in its class features is a problem.)

AGrinningCat

2021-02-20, 03:32 PM

[Enhanced] problems

Give me some time to consult some people on this. I understand this problem now that you've brought it to light, and I'm going to mull over the options to try to find an elegant solution.

A lot of good words

Would that have anyone say "OP, please nerf?"
Unfortunately, yes. I agree with your words, but it's the perception of power that makes the class seem better than it would be in practice. I'll try to talk to some people about this, but I don't have high hopes that this will change. Still, I'll give it my best shot.

I did a brief skim but initial questions.

Veils will get proliferated to other classes once I've made sure they're all functioning and not broke in half. As far as Kheshig receiving any veils, they already have a large list, but I'm open to suggestions if people think its a good idea.

Rajah won't get any new veils (As all of its veils are tied to Path of War disciplines, so unless there are new disciplines, there won't be new veils). The [Enhanced] veils probably won't be proliferated, but I'm looking at all of the others and deciding where they should go.

(Even if you don't want to go all in on the bodyguard theme and just want it to be a frontliner, the lack of soulmeld/essentia interaction in its class features is a problem.)

The truth is:

The class is supposed to be only lightly flavored, like Fighter or Rogue. Rather than presenting a theme, the class is what you make it. This is needed cause Kheshig is supposed to be an entry point to the system; you're as bland as a fighter conceptually, so you can dress yourself up however you want. Simple and Accessible are the two words for this class. This leads to the second point:

The class's class features are supposed to be cut, dry, and straight forward. You're not supposed to do a lot of interaction with them. Rather, they are the floor for you to stand on, keeping you up while you juggle with your veils. This way, you're not too limited on what you can do, regardless of your veil loadout, allowing players to experiment and explore with the system at their leisure.

The reasoning is that I've received a lot of complaints about the system being arcane or hard to get into; people look at Daevic or Zodiac and are overwhelmed by options, or play Vizier and feel ineffective because their veil loadout. This class is aimed to solve that problem; with nearly each class feature raising your power floor so you're not struggling due to bad decisions, or tying into the akashic system somehow to have people go and look at those rules. An easy example is Weapon veils, which are presented first, with huge sidebars for their descriptors -- This teaches you to look at descriptors. Further down you can find the Undetectable descriptor, which should lead you into seeing how your other veils can be identified and noticed. Steady does both -- Calling out that save DCs don't normally work like this: Teaching you how save DCs work in the system, but also giving you a good floor so your abilities at least connect with low essence. Some veils feature essence burn, which will lead you to those rules. Some veils sunder themselves, leading you to those rules, and so on and so forth.

This is also why there are very little choices in the class chassis itself -- You choose what weapon you want to use and armor, and all your 'real' choices come from what veils you wish to shape. Adding in more choices pulls focus towards the class chassis rather than the veils themselves, which are the core and meat of the akashic system.

Essentially, the light flavor and simplistic class features are by design -- Class features are strong enough so you don't feel bad if your veil selection is terrible (So people don't associate the feeling of playing an Akashic class as something terrible), while being broad enough that any individual who wants to play a 'tank' or otherwise frontline person can fit within the theme of the class.

Elves

2021-02-20, 05:06 PM

The class is supposed to be only lightly flavored, like Fighter or Rogue. Rather than presenting a theme, the class is what you make it. This is needed cause Kheshig is supposed to be an entry point to the system; you're as bland as a fighter conceptually, so you can dress yourself up however you want.
Rename to a basic word then IMO. "Kheshig" is too obscure to draw entry point players and too particular to be generic.

The reasoning is that I've received a lot of complaints about the system being arcane or hard to get into
MoI from the start was criticized as being hard to understand, and those were classes that had almost no class features beyond the melds. The complexity criticism is about the subsystem itself, not class features.

Part of it is the arcane terminology. Someone posted a whole thing where they refluffed soulmelds as cybertech enhancements, which I thought was far more intuitive. Gadgets or attachments instead of melds/veils, energy instead of essence. That's the supplement I would write to make incarnum more accessible and popular. A class with a weird Mongolian name isn't going to do that.

Trying to give them a non-incarnum chassis and then incarnum on top of that is counterproductive because it makes the class even more intimidating due to feature cram. Looking at the table it's too much. If you integrate the abilities it actually becomes simpler. I agree with you that a good way to do class design is one style or subclass type choice that creates differentiation within the class, with the other abilities largely flexible day to day. My suggestion for paring this one down is cut the armor and weapon style abilities and replace them with a single ability that determines what rider effect your mark gains (teleport, AoOs or concealment) rather than all 3 being baseline.

The mark is something that, if you want this class to be simple and approachable, should be cut. But if you do include it it's awkward to have it be disjointed from the class's other features. Having separate parts is more complicated than a unified whole. And this class has so much to read that it's absolutely not a beginner class. Making it be one requires serious paring down. But since a beginner isn't going to choose a class with a weird name like "kheshig", nor are you going to solve incarnum's approachability problem without addressing the system itself, it makes more sense IMO to go all out on making a cool incarnum/akasha bodyguard.

Volfogg

2021-02-20, 05:17 PM

Give me some time to consult some people on this. I understand this problem now that you've brought it to light, and I'm going to mull over the options to try to find an elegant solution.
An intereting take on this would be to have an essence resceptacle, similar to Akashic Anvil, whereby the Kheshig would invest essence in order to gain the listed benefits. However, this would mean that essence would be in short supply. :(

Veils will get proliferated to other classes once I've made sure they're all functioning and not broke in half. As far as Kheshig receiving any veils, they already have a large list, but I'm open to suggestions if people think its a good idea.
Only thing missing from the veil list, as far as I can tell, would be some "armor-like" veils, similar to Breastplate of the Righteous.

The truth is:
... snip
If this is the case, possibly change the name and tweak the fluff into a more generalist theme? Maybe call the class Akashic Knight or some such thing. A warrior who also masters the principles and usage of veil weaving. Nice and simple. With what you have already a player could concentrate on one of the usuall tropes (sword and board, unarmed, two-handed sword etcetera). Although I still feel that Akashic Mark could use a tweak or two (possibly even removed all together), I just can't put my finger on it.

Cheers
Volf

AGrinningCat

2021-02-20, 06:11 PM

Rename to a basic word then IMO. "Kheshig" is too obscure to draw entry point players and too particular to be generic.
Akashic Mysteries core and Rajah (The class I wrote) all use 'silk road'-esq naming; I'm continuing this trend. We're we in an earlier stage of development, I might have considered the name (and indeed, Kheshig was not always Kheshig), but I believe it's a bit too late at this point. Kheshig (the name) was indeed picked to be a counterpart to the Rajah; even if most games won't allow for both classes at the same time.

MoI from the start was criticized as being hard to understand, and those were classes that had almost no class features beyond the melds. The complexity criticism is about the subsystem itself, not class features.
This is why class features are simple -- I don't want people focusing on them. Anyone who has a basic system mastery of Pathfinder can gloss over these features and understand what they do in an instant -- Fighting styles make you fight better. Armor styles makes your armor better. Akashic mark takes some reading (And if I could simplify this, I would), but its understandable once you've read it. These things aren't "new" to any pathfinder player; and that's by design. Everything new essentially is pushed into the veilweaving side. Giving them akashic class features puts focus on those class features, which is the opposite of what I want.

The purpose of the class features is to A) Be simple enough to understand and B) Be powerful enough that a player isn't scrambling to make Kheshig function. This is why a lot of the early class features hand out bonus feats or abilities to make your avenue of attack functional. Want to unarmed? You get Improved unarmed strike and 1d6 fists. Want to dual wield? You get TWF and the ability to use STR instead of Dex. These qualify for both A and B of the class features.

Nominally, the best way to go about this would be similar to the conscript or the incanter from Spheres of Might/Power, where players are just thrown to the proverbial wolves, but we have a class like this (Vizier), and due to the dependence on its veils, this causes its own problems. If you mess up your veil selection; you may be underperforming for the day; or maybe for the entire campaign, if you're repeatedly making this mistake. The B) portion of these class features keeps the power floor up high enough, that with nearly any random selection of veils (So long as you're matching a weapon veil to your fighting style), that you'll be on par with other non-Path of War 3pp classes; give or take depending on your actual choices.

Now, if I were to remove Fighting style/armor style, I'd be dropping both the power floor, making players scramble to make up via feat choices (Which I don't want, I want them to be looking at akashic feats, understanding how they work, as well as understanding how non-veil containers work, hence Reinforced class feature). I could remove Akashic Mark all together, but then the class actually becomes bland (rather than just slightly bland), and you'd have to figure out other ways to contribute to a team besides 'apply damage to face' which nearly anyone else can do; which again moves player's focus elsewhere as they try to make u

An intereting take on this would be to have an essence resceptacle, similar to Akashic Anvil, whereby the Kheshig would invest essence in order to gain the listed benefits. However, this would mean that essence would be in short supply. :(
This could be interesting as a feat, but I feel it may be a bit weak to take vs other feats, especially if you do have a crafter around to actually give you the +x stuff. Again, I'm looking into this for a more elegant solution.

Only thing missing from the veil list, as far as I can tell, would be some "armor-like" veils, similar to Breastplate of the Righteous.
This class was written largely before armor-like veils even existed. This isn't a terrible idea, and may serve to replace Armored by Akasha armor benefits all together. The only thing I'm worried about here is word count, but Armaments of faith is only 300 words. I could squeeze in maybe 2ish armor veils per 'style' (light/medium/heavy/unarmed) at 1200 words per set (2 veils per would be 2400), but I have to keep an eye on the word count to account for the ranged archetype as well.

If this is the case, possibly change the name and tweak the fluff into a more generalist theme? Maybe call the class Akashic Knight or some such thing. A warrior who also masters the principles and usage of veil weaving. Nice and simple. With what you have already a player could concentrate on one of the usual tropes (sword and board, unarmed, two-handed sword etcetera). Although I still feel that Akashic Mark could use a tweak or two (possibly even removed all together), I just can't put my finger on it.
Since you're the second person to note on this, I'll do some talking about it, but I don't know if it'd be good to change the name this late in development.

As far as Akashic mark goes; it has played smoothly in the few combats I've ran against it, so I'm surprised to see so many complaints about it. If you do manage to place a finger on it, let me know, as you're not the only one with a hang-up on this ability.

Elves

2021-02-20, 06:42 PM

Akashic Mysteries core and Rajah (The class I wrote) all use 'silk road'-esq naming; I'm continuing this trend.
Kheshig done in a fully thematic way would be a great akashic class. You could also do a good beginner/basic class to introduce players to the subsystem. Right now, this class is splinched between those two goals and doesn't fulfill either. Choose one and go all the way with it.

Akashic mark takes some reading (And if I could simplify this, I would)
Here:

Akashic Mark (Su): At 1st level, whenever you make a melee attack against a creature, hit or miss, that creature is marked for 1 round. Creatures other than you have concealment against them, and they have a 20% spell failure chance when they cast a targeted spell or spell-like ability that doesn't include you as a target. These penalties only apply when they could choose to target you instead.

The first time each round a given creature triggers one of the above penalties, they take 1d6 untyped damage after their attack or spell is resolved. This damage increases by 1d6 at each odd-numbered class level thereafter.

AGrinningCat

2021-02-20, 07:18 PM

Due to Volfogg's feedback, I've added in the Akashic Arms and Armor feat. This should allow veilweavers (or other individuals who may poach an Enhance veil via other means) to enhance their enhancables without needing a wizard nearby. You'll still need Spellcraft; however. Do let me know if you all feel that this is an issue.

Kheshig done in a fully thematic way would be a great akashic class. You could also do a good beginner/basic class to introduce players to the subsystem. Right now, this class is splinched between those two goals and doesn't fulfill either. Choose one and go all the way with it.
I believe I have gone in on making a good beginner class; I have refuted your opinions in the earlier post with stances I believe to be solid. I recognize this as a matter of opinion; however, and you're entitled to your own. While the name may change, I believe the class features are largely in a good place, save the conversation I had with Volfogg earlier.

Here:

Akashic Mark (Su): At 1st level, whenever you make a melee attack against a creature, hit or miss, that creature is marked for 1 round. Creatures other than you have concealment against them, and they have a 20% spell failure chance when they cast a targeted spell or spell-like ability that doesn't include you as a target. These penalties only apply when they could choose to target you instead.

The first time each round a given creature triggers one of the above penalties, they take 1d6 untyped damage after their attack or spell is resolved. This damage increases by 1d6 at each odd-numbered class level thereafter.

This is missing out on a lot of things:
Concealment and miss chance are two different things (Concealment is an effect that grants Miss Chance)-- Miss chance is also used to place the % in the text so that individuals don't need to go searching for it.
Wording in Akashic mark includes text referencing area of effect attacks, such as Fireball. This only references targeted spells. Note that Fireball doesn't target anything; as its an area of effect spell, and creatures caught within the area are subjected to its effects.
This lacks wording for when the marked target cannot hit the Kheshig (Kheshig under the effects of Earthglide, for example)
"Akashic Pulse of Power" is used instead of untyped damage because of the lack of clarification around rules regarding untyped damage. It's simpler for the player to have all the text regarding the ability within the ability, so that players aren't opening the book for odd cases.
This also lacks text in regards to how many times a creature can be marked (A party with two Kheshigs, for example).

The size of the text may be intimidating and seemingly complicated, but the majority of it is for odd cases or clarification purposes. You mark a person, and if that person makes a hostile action that isn't against you, they take damage. I don't feel this violates any of the goals going into this class.

Volfogg

2021-02-20, 07:28 PM

... snip

As far as Akashic mark goes; it has played smoothly in the few combats I've ran against it, so I'm surprised to see so many complaints about it. If you do manage to place a finger on it, let me know, as you're not the only one with a hang-up on this ability.
I finally managed to figure out what was bothering me, I find the ability out of place to be honest. For me theme is extremely important when reviewing new classes and is the driving force if I allow them in my games. In this instance, I believe Akashic Mark is just sort of ... disjointed, and doesn't feel quit right as part of the class. I would have liked to see something a bit more thematic or in line with what the class does .... use Akasha. Although the ability itself is well done!

As an example, instead of Akashic Mark why not an ability to open a special chakra center that allows them to attain the same zen state (along with a few different perks and bonuses) of Mushin or something similar. Another take on this would be allowing them to inflict upon opponents a baneful veil-like effect. Something like the following:

Akashic Adjunct (Su): Kheshig's study a rare form of veilweaving which allow them to apply a veil to their opponent rather than oneself. In order to use this ability the Kheshig must successfully strike an opponent using a weapon from his Akashic Arsenal. As a swift action, the Kheshig can then splinter off a small portion of his own essence in order to apply a veil to his opponent (see below). Unlike normal veils these impose a baneful affect. This ability acts as an essence receptacle, each point invested into this ability enhances whichever veil the Kheshig uses against his opponents. Only one such veil can be active at a given time. If this ability is used again, to inflict a different adjunct veil, the previous one ends immediately. The baneful affect of the veil lasts until the Kheshig uses another swift action to change it, to apply an adjunct veil to another opponent, or the opponent moves more that 30' away from the Kheshig. Whichever comes first.

Blind as a Bat[headband]: This veil causes opaque spectacles to appear upon the opponents nose hampering vision. The opponent suffers a 5% miss chance for each point of invested essence.
Butter Fingers[hands]: Plush oil slick gloves adorn the opponents hands. These nefarious gloves cause the opponent to drop hand held items on any attack roll which results in a "1". The chance of the opponent dropping items increases by 1 for each point of invested essence.
Scared of the Dark[head]: A gauzy hood of shadows and spider webs causes the opponent to see beastly shadows and other monstrosities out of the corner of their eye. This results in the opponent taking a penalty, equal to the number of invested essence, to all saves versus fear affects.

I hope that my ramblings are in some way helpful!
Cheers
Volf

AGrinningCat

2021-02-20, 07:47 PM

I hope that my ramblings are in some way helpful!
Cheers
Volf

They are! Having people talk about their opinions or the way they see things is always helpful. More to your post; saying it feels disjuncted with the rest of the class is a valid point. However, I don't think making it more complex is the way to go. I'm still open to options, though.

Let me ask you this in return -- To you, what makes a class feature or feat feel Akashic?

Edit for follow up question: Are there any akashic class features that don't feel akashic to you, from other classes?

Volfogg

2021-02-20, 08:01 PM

They are! Having people talk about their opinions or the way they see things is always helpful. More to your post; saying it feels disjuncted with the rest of the class is a valid point. However, I don't think making it more complex is the way to go. I'm still open to options, though.

Let me ask you this in return -- To you, what makes a class feature or feat feel Akashic?
I am glade that my ramblings are somehow useful. :P Now, on to your point, for me at least an ability must be evocative of the overlying idea of the class. In this case; akasha. Taking that into account, especially in regards to what makes something "feel" Akashic, is in how the ability, power, feat etcetera, reflects that. Looking at Akashic Mark, I have to question how does this reflect the theme of the Kheshig which is an Akashic based class? Akasha can be incorporated in a few different ways, what if Akashic Mark was a receptacle? What if you could use essence burn to further improve the ability? What if you could temporarily consume the opponents life-force for temporary essence? These are a few examples of what I mean.

Keep up the great work! I love Akashic classes.

Cheers
Volf

Efrate

2021-02-20, 08:43 PM

A note about large unarmed attacks doing 1d8 would be nice. There are large races.

Heavy Armor training seems a bit overtuned. It means you auto escape all grapples and movement effects, as well as get the DR. If you are going to go that far then make it apply to difficult terrain as well. Because entangle as a quick example does not reduce your speed, nor your ability to run or charge if you are inside, but it does because its difficult terrain. It also does if you enter from outside, because its difficult terrain, but it doesn't cause its caused by someone. This needs cleaning up at the very least.

Veil stuff, mostly clarity, and I am likely VERY nitpicky

Clarity on enchanced veils. If someone crafts magic arms and armor a weaponlike enhanced veil that then gets unshaped either by resting and reshaping or any means, should be stated that when reshaped it keeps all its enhancements.

Staff of Ten-Thousand Truths: This appears to be the only veil that sets the unarmed damage to 1d6 even if small. Oversight or intentional? Also can other things increase unarmed damage? Say using a veil that gives you an effective or actual size increase?

Juggernaut blade: Swift to enter, swift to leave. So you use a swift round 1 to enter first form, swift round 2 to leave, then a swift round 3 to enter second form. So you get no form benefits round 2, or between round 2 and 3 if you swift after your normal actions?

Hardlight Axe: How many axes by default does this create? What happens to the copy axe after you fling it? Does in place or an attack mean its an alternate or an additional effect for the attack? If the flung axe is permanent while you have veils, if you pick it up post battles can you still use it as a ranged melee attack? Or a normal ranged attack?

Mark of the Gate Guardian: Does the ally shield bonus to AC stack like the normal veil or is it locked at 1? Seems underpowered for a bind if it always is 1.

Twin Thunders: Should be paired, or explicitly laid out that you create 2 hammer. Also are you immune to the sonic burst? The burst shape affect everything in the range which includes you.

Mark of the wounded Beast: The normal attack mentions ignores immunities, which makes the bind worthless, unless the enemy is immune to poison and bleed, then it would only take the poison damage on the failed save but not the bleed.

Still waters Clear Skies: Assuming I have essense to burn, is there a limit to how many times I can attack for each miss? You mention as an immediate or burning essense, so what action if any does the essense burn take? Assuming I am missed 4 times in a round, could I burn 3 essense and my immediate to take 4 attacks? Also is the essense investment count on just this special AoO or ALL AoOs giving you Super Combat Relflexes.

Blade of Stone and Air: Does the bind effect supersede the limitation of number of motes?

Craftsmen's Belt: The SLAs, is it one "slot" that you can cast any of the spells out of a numbers of times equal to your veilweaving modifier, or can you cast each spells veilweaver modifier number of times? I am assuming the former based on wording, but since no where else does a sincle SLA equal multiple spells just clarifying.

Mask of the Hunter: 5 points is a LOT of essense for +1 to hit and damage on the bind which does not really scale well. You get a normal max of 7 essense after level 16 which gives +3 hit and damage which is pretty bad rate. Maybe scale by 2/3 per point past 5? Especially since like most akashic stuff it is an insight bonus so multile sources are not stacking.

JUggernaut Plating: For the bind, who rolls the attack? The veilweaver makes any required attack roll to hit the original attacker, but all other effects (such as the bonus to attack) use the bonuses and abilities of the original attacker. Which is it? Also a line about being able to use the redirect on ranged touch attacks or rays would be consistent with other such abilities.

Charred Angelic Winds: Description bind is shoulders. In the text the bind is Body. Which is it? Also, is the damage with the bind added to the feather attack, or something like an aura effect?

Feats Much shorter.

Unified Theory: The feat as written only says "You may add enhancement bonuses, weapon, armor, and shield special qualities" but it mentions applying materials in the second part. Can you add materials, and if so what is the cost, is it per 'track' or a one time investment into it?

Draacul

2021-02-20, 08:52 PM

Elves

2021-02-20, 09:02 PM

I believe I have gone in on making a good beginner class.
It's forty pages long.

I just sense a little disjunction here. You say you designed this class to be the answer to people's complaints about the complexity of the akashic classes. But then you're set on doubling the length of the text to cover edge cases, adding an extraneous mark feature that doesn't connect to their other abilities, + adding weapon veils in addition to standard body slots.

This is not a criticism of you. Just that when designing anything, it's important to decide what your priorities are and hold to them.

So is this going to be a complex class? If so, the lack of feature interaction is a problem. Or is it going to be a beginner class? If so, it's too long and too busy.

AGrinningCat

2021-02-20, 09:37 PM

I am glade that my ramblings are somehow useful. :P Now, on to your point, for me at least an ability must be evocative of the overlying idea of the class. In this case; akasha. Taking that into account, especially in regards to what makes something "feel" Akashic, is in how the ability, power, feat etcetera, reflects that. Looking at Akashic Mark, I have to question how does this reflect the theme of the Kheshig which is an Akashic based class? Akasha can be incorporated in a few different ways, what if Akashic Mark was a receptacle? What if you could use essence burn to further improve the ability? What if you could temporarily consume the opponents life-force for temporary essence? These are a few examples of what I mean.

Keep up the great work! I love Akashic classes.

Cheers
Volf

I'll keep this in mind when I get to Akashic mark -- I'm in the process of seeing how Armored by Akasha would look as a class feature similar to Akashic Arsenal, but with armor-like veils. Thank you for your input! I ended up asking another question in the edit; I'd appreciate it if you could take a look at that as well.

A note about large unarmed attacks doing 1d8 would be nice. There are large races.

Heavy Armor training seems a bit overtuned. It means you auto escape all grapples and movement effects, as well as get the DR. If you are going to go that far then make it apply to difficult terrain as well. Because entangle as a quick example does not reduce your speed, nor your ability to run or charge if you are inside, but it does because its difficult terrain. It also does if you enter from outside, because its difficult terrain, but it doesn't cause its caused by someone. This needs cleaning up at the very least.

Veil stuff, mostly clarity, and I am likely VERY nitpicky

I'll get this cleaned up -- Notably large races should get their unarmed size increases as normal, so I'll try to hammer some wording down for it

HAT was not intended to allow you to escape grapples, but it's worded poorly, so I'll see about getting that cleaned up; although it may not be for a bit since I'm planning on working the entirety of Armored by Akasha

Veil concerns:
Staff of 10k truths doesn't allow your dice damage to go below 1d6 to prevent people from shrinking their dice size to cause infinite attacks. This is working as intended
Jug blade: Added wording, dropped exiting a form to a free action
Hardlight Axe creates 1 by default, but you can create . You can't 'dupe' copies now, so thats fixed.
Mark of the Gate Guardian increases the shield AC by 1; so it stacks with itself, yes
Twin Thunders (And similar veils) have been updated to reflect that they create multiple weapons. Rules for multiple weapons and enhanced items can be found under the enhanced descriptor.
Mark of the Wounded Beast's normal attacks do not ignore immunity to poison or damage; the damage from the poison ignores damage, and if they're bleeding, deals an additional point of bleed damage. The bind causes your unarmed attacks to ignore bleed damage and your poisoned dagger to ignore poison damage.
Still Water, Clear Skies: Burning essence is not an action; you can just burn 1 essence per attack that misses you, as long as you have attacks of opportunities to make. You'll burn out of essence super quickly though if that's what you're planning! The essence benefit for Still Waters, Clear Skies is all AoOs, so you can burn more essence the more you have invested, or just use your AoOs normally.
BoSaA: The bind doesn't let you hold more essence, but does explicity call out you get an additional mote in addition to the one you get when you hit someone.
Craftsman belt: Clarified; each spell is its own pool
Charred Angelic Wings was a copy/paste error, the veil is shoulders. Thanks for catching this!
Juggernaut plating: You make the roll, but you use the enemy's bonus to attack. So if they had a +10 from whatever bonuses, and you have a +12, you'd use a +10 to hit them. Added wording for touch-attack stuff.

So, for mask of the hunter, it's not like you're not receiving no benefit from essence 1-5. I'm leery about giving more bonuses to hit/damage , but if more people complain about it, I'll bump up the number. I'm posting this outside of spoilers so I can get feedback on Mask of the Hunter.

As far as the feat goes; I've updated the text to reflect that you can add special materials to the feat.

Thank you for all your feedback!

Kris Moonhand

2021-02-20, 09:43 PM

It's forty pages long.
What are you talking about? The class is 5 pages long. I've seen core classes with more pages than that. The rest of it is veils and feats. I've never seen anyone complain that a magic book had too many spells in it, or that a book for martials had too many combat feats.

I just sense a little disjunction here. You say you designed this class to be the answer to people's complaints about the complexity of the akashic classes. But then you're set on doubling the length of the text to cover edge cases, adding an extraneous mark feature that doesn't connect to their other abilities
You call the Akashic Mark "extraneous" when it is very clearly the main class feature, like a Paladin's Smite Evil. How many class features does Paladin have? And how many actively interact with Smite? Yet Smite is clearly the Paladin's main class feature, their primary way of interacting with combat. Everything else, the combat styles, the armor training, the extra HP, are all vehicles to carry the Kheshig through combat. They are not, in and of themselves, the Kheshig's "main thing".

+ adding weapon veils in addition to standard body slots.
I don't know if you've misread it, but the [enhanced] veils still use the normal Akashic veil slots. That is to say, generally the Hands and Wrists slots for offensive veils.

AGrinningCat

2021-02-20, 09:54 PM

Possibly unrelated question:who designed this?
Do we have Rajah designer back in the saddle?
For the record,Rajah is my favorite Akashic class,bar none.
That being said,i'm starting to reading it,and i have problem with either a name or function of Akashic Mark.
Mongols are archers,but the mark only works on melee attacks?What?
Can't we have it work on everything,preferably area effects,too?There is still a need to re-apply it every round.

I am the Rajah designer! I'm glad you like my class, and I hope you like this one too!

Mongols were archers yes, but also used axes, daggers, spears, lances, and occasionally swords. Kheshigs were largely there as a way to prevent assassins; which bringing a bow to fight with an assassin would be very :smallconfused:

I'm making two changes to Akashic Mark for the mean time (As I'm probably going to give it a bigger change once I figure out what I want to do with it)
Akashic Mark now triggers on damage rather than attack -- This allows enemies to have at least some defense against it (although you can still swift-mark them, but that eats up your actions).
I'm also removing the melee limit. The class doesn't have very many ranged attacks (range archetype will come later), but for those that it does have, you'll be able to mark people with it.

AGrinningCat

2021-02-20, 10:01 PM

It's forty pages long.

I just sense a little disjunction here. You say you designed this class to be the answer to people's complaints about the complexity of the akashic classes. But then you're set on doubling the length of the text to cover edge cases, adding an extraneous mark feature that doesn't connect to their other abilities, + adding weapon veils in addition to standard body slots.

This is not a criticism of you. Just that when designing anything, it's important to decide what your priorities are and hold to them.

So is this going to be a complex class? If so, the lack of feature interaction is a problem. Or is it going to be a beginner class? If so, it's too long and too busy.

Kris discussed some of the stuff already, so I'll touch on what she missed:
Weapon veils are still normal veils. The Akashic Arsenal class feature is because players would take weapon veils regardless if they got it for free or not -- This ended up become a false choice in veil selection, which is not what I wanted.

Efrate

2021-02-20, 10:03 PM

I don't know if you've misread it, but the [enhanced] veils still use the normal Akashic veil slots. That is to say, generally the Hands and Wrists slots for offensive veils.

The opposite actually. Enhanced is the +1 and does not interfere with the normal slot. You can have an enhanced hand and a normal hand both bound at once with no issues.

Draacul

2021-02-20, 10:28 PM

I am the Rajah designer! I'm glad you like my class, and I hope you like this one too!
I literally play Rajah now.This one...well,i can certainly say that i like it more than City of 7 Seraphs veilweavers. There is a potential here.It does sounds relatively simple to use,though being melee gimped it like crazy.That being said...

Akashic Mark now triggers on damage rather than attack -- This allows enemies to have at least some defense against it (although you can still swift-mark them, but that eats up your actions).
I'm also removing the melee limit. The class doesn't have very many ranged attacks (range archetype will come later), but for those that it does have, you'll be able to mark people with it.
Now it's FAR simpler and easier to use in it's base capacity.There is a lot auto-damaging abilities,including ranged,so that any perspective offender will be more than likely marked.
Speaking of mark,i like it's progression,but 17th level ability might as well not be there.I mean,it's rocket tag by that point and we NOW get unlimited duration on marks?

Kris Moonhand

2021-02-20, 10:32 PM

The opposite actually. Enhanced is the +1 and does not interfere with the normal slot. You can have an enhanced hand and a normal hand both bound at once with no issues.
That's a class feature, not an inherent part of the rules for [enhanced] veils.

AGrinningCat

2021-02-20, 10:41 PM

I literally play Rajah now.This one...well,i can certainly say that i like it more than City of 7 Seraphs veilweavers. There is a potential here.It does sounds relatively simple to use,though being melee gimped it like crazy.That being said...

Now it's FAR simpler and easier to use in it's base capacity.There is a lot auto-damaging abilities,including ranged,so that any perspective offender will be more than likely marked.
Speaking of mark,i like it's progression,but 17th level ability might as well not be there.I mean,it's rocket tag by that point and we NOW get unlimited duration on marks?

I'm glad you liked the Rajah!

As far as the 17th level ability; I'm open for suggestions, but like I said, I'm looking into changing how it functions. If it doesn't, however, what would you like to see an upgrade at 17th level do?

Draacul

2021-02-20, 10:55 PM

I'm glad you liked the Rajah!

As far as the 17th level ability; I'm open for suggestions, but like I said, I'm looking into changing how it functions. If it doesn't, however, what would you like to see an upgrade at 17th level do?
I'm not a designer,but i do play a lot.And almost never reach that level.Which,to me,seems that finishing ability on defining class feature should have capstone-level power.Also considering that capstone here presently is kinda lackluster.
Again,i'll bring Rajah into this!
What does she get as a capstone?
Very literal immortality,coupled with inability to actually being killed AND when somebody tries especially hard she pulls one-winged angel!
Whereas Kheshig gets...a fourth-level-power-equivalent?
So,to mark.What can be a capstone-level to it?Well,removing limits on number of triggers of akashic pulse per round would be a good start.
Yes,we'll counter that pesky dragon six times,big shock-wizards did it since level seven.

Eldest

2021-02-21, 12:07 AM

Akashic Mysteries core and Rajah (The class I wrote) all use 'silk road'-esq naming; I'm continuing this trend. We're we in an earlier stage of development, I might have considered the name (and indeed, Kheshig was not always Kheshig), but I believe it's a bit too late at this point. Kheshig (the name) was indeed picked to be a counterpart to the Rajah; even if most games won't allow for both classes at the same time.

Have you considered Janissary? I'd understand if it's too late, but throwing something that's a little more generic fighting-type might be worthwhile.

Elves

2021-02-21, 12:44 AM

What are you talking about? The class is 5 pages long. I've seen core classes with more pages than that. The rest of it is veils and feats.
It's very reasonable for a fully fleshed out class. Beginner friendly it is not. Someone who's intimidated by incarnum isn't going to read 30 pages of soulmelds. A beginner friendly incarnum class would have like 4 melds to start and a few more unlocking later. Better to drop the beginner friendly thing and just make this a really good class. But if you drop the beginner friendly thing you have to fix the lackluster nature of the features. One or the other, but commit.

You call the Akashic Mark "extraneous" when it is very clearly the main class feature, like a Paladin's Smite Evil.
Well, it has its soulmelds, and then it has this mark ability. And they're both just kind of sitting there.

How many class features does Paladin have? And how many actively interact with Smite?
Early 3e class design was wonky and by the end of the edition was outdated. PF improved 3e paladin by giving it a stronger role and identity (strong ongoing ST with smite and a utility role in clearing debuffs with LOH mercies). Which is similar to what you could do with this class. Bring out its identity and role. Wouldn't take much.

Have you considered Janissary?
That's cool, I would support

Draacul

2021-02-21, 12:45 AM

Have you considered Janissary?
What would be"old soldier",then?

Well, it has its soulmelds, and then it has this mark ability. And they're both just kind of sitting there.

Well,now you can use silly weak-rearend lightnings and such to mark targets.This is progress.

AGrinningCat

2021-02-21, 01:57 AM

Have you considered Janissary?
Ironically, Janissary probably has more or less the same ranged connotations than Kheshig does; since they were known to use firearms a lot.
Now that being said, I have been looking for a name for this ranged archetype...

Kris Moonhand

2021-02-21, 02:07 AM

It's very reasonable for a fully fleshed out class. Beginner friendly it is not. Someone who's intimidated by incarnum isn't going to read 30 pages of soulmelds. A beginner friendly incarnum class would have like 4 melds to start and a few more unlocking later. Better to drop the beginner friendly thing and just make this a really good class. But if you drop the beginner friendly thing you have to fix the lackluster nature of the features. One or the other, but commit.

Well, it has its soulmelds, and then it has this mark ability. And they're both just kind of sitting there.

Early 3e class design was wonky and by the end of the edition was outdated. PF improved 3e paladin by giving it a stronger role and identity (strong ongoing ST with smite and a utility role in clearing debuffs with LOH mercies). Which is similar to what you could do with this class. Bring out its identity and role. Wouldn't take much.
Dude, I am begging you to use the proper terminology here. They've been veils, not soulmelds, for nearly a decade now. Either use the Akashic terms or go back to the 3.5 threads.

Saying that people aren't going to read the veils is ridiculous. That's like saying that people aren't going to look through rogue talents when playing a Rogue, or Combat feats when playing a Fighter. Even if they don't look at all of them, a newbie is at least gonna try and find a cool weapon to use. I've walked newbies through Akasha stuff before and that's generally what they do. And that's with classes that don't have a clear message for their abilities. (Looking at you, Guru.)

Also, actually address the points being made. You completely ignored my point that Paladin has no class features that interact with their primary class feature, and it still remains their primary class feature. That's not a trait that is unique to Paladin. In fact, a lot of Akashic have features like that.

Draacul

2021-02-21, 02:14 AM

Ironically, Janissary probably has more or less the same ranged connotations than Kheshig does; since they were known to use firearms a lot.
Now that being said, I have been looking for a name for this ranged archetype...
Half of Kebteul had these nice bows.Gods these are so good i have no words,i've been using one for more then fifteen years now...but i digress.
And Janissary had Solak,which were dedicated ranged units.
Also,is synergy between Still Waters, Clear Skies and Staff of Ten-Thousand Truths intentional?You can have both as is and mercilessly beat opponents who miss you with a stick.With an opportunity for every missed attack plus an extra attack on top of it plus an extra attack if anything crits or roll 6 on damage-this is very...well,maybe not powerful,but at least fun.
And you get the combo on-line literally at level 2.Slap Frigid Grasp on it and go to town.

Elves

2021-02-21, 04:55 AM

Dude, I am begging you to use the proper terminology here. They've been veils, not soulmelds, for nearly a decade now. Either use the Akashic terms or go back to the 3.5 threads.
Are you really going to lingo police the person trying to help you make money. If goal is accessible, this isn't. Clearly, you don't want to hear it.

Also, actually address the points being made. You completely ignored my point that Paladin has no class features that interact with their primary class feature
As I did say, Core class design is not something to imitate. Paladin also doesn't have a subsystem. With a subsystem class, you want to have some tie-in.

StSword

2021-02-21, 05:55 AM

Are you really going to lingo police the person trying to help you make money. If goal is accessible, this isn't. Clearly, you don't want to hear it.

And how exactly are you trying to make Kris Moonhand money here when it's AGrinningCat who is the author looking for playtesting and started this thread?

Kris Moonhand

2021-02-21, 10:42 AM

Are you really going to lingo police the person trying to help you make money. If goal is accessible, this isn't. Clearly, you don't want to hear it.
Using Incarnum terms is as ridiculous as calling the 3.5 Fighter a "Fighting Man", like this was still 1st Edition D&D. As well, veils and soulmelds are not the same thing. Akasha changed a lot during its debut and has evolved beyond Incarnum since then. Also, I didn't write the book.

As I did say, Core class design is not something to imitate. Paladin also doesn't have a subsystem. With a subsystem class, you want to have some tie-in.
Paladin does have a subsystem. Magic spells are a subsystem, same as psionic powers or akashic veils. Them being a core subsystem doesn't stop them from being a subsystem. And nothing in the Paladin class interacts with their spellcasting, unlike Kheshig and other akashic classes.

upho

2021-02-21, 03:28 PM

First off: love the concept of an Akashic tank, and would love even more to see its intended tank role realized in class features focusing on true defender mechanics. Especially since the warder is so far the only existing class which I think could be considered to have successfully done that, out of the hundreds of classes and archetypes by various 3PPs for the DSP subsystems as well as those by Paizo. So I'm eager to see a class offering more than a pile of personal durability boosts and no key features putting those boosts to work in defense of the party. And I definitely also like the design goal of a class that's difficult to screw up with poor build options.

However, I believe a few key changes and additions to the current mechanics are needed for the kheshig to match its tanky concept, not to mention live up to its description as a class that "excels at drawing enemy fire to themselves, protecting weaker allies from dangerous foes."

Akashic Mark...whenever the kheshig deals damage to a creature, that creature is marked. A creature marked this way suffers a 20% miss chance against all creatures other than the kheshig, and suffers a 20% spell failure...So far, this is fine. Although the "deals damage" clause makes it more fitting for something like a blaster sorcerer than a melee class.

The relevant question here is: How much need is there to mark a creature the kheshig has already been able to successfully target with an attack and deal damage to?
Considering that in many/most cases, the core combat rules, not to mention many of the melee options available to the kheshig, will limit a damaged creature's ability to pose a serious threat anyways, I'd say the enemies a kheshig's party needs to worry the least about are those which the kheshig has already been able to damage.

Akashic Mark If the creature attacks... after that attack or spell is resolved, that creature takes 1d6 points of damage.(My emphasis.) The fact that the mark punishment doesn't interrupt the violating attack takes a huge amount of the defender functionality away from this feature's later upgrades. After 13th level, this feature might become a bit more serviceable defender tool, but only for a kheshig with an exceptionally powerful AoO.

Akashic MarkThis effect can only be triggered once per creature per round. ...no creature may be marked more than once... This akashic mark lasts for 1 round...So in its current form, during most levels and for a large majority of kheshigs, this feature's ability to shield allies from an enemy consists of a minor debuff to violating attacks, but only during one single round in an enemy's entire existence, and only if that enemy has already taken damage from the kheshig.

I'm pretty certain that from no later than 8th level, a barbarian using only Paizo options can be a quite considerably more effective defender, despite not having a mark feature. And in high levels, also a fighter and probably a paladin using only Paizo options can be vastly better at the job the kheshig is supposed to excel at. Personally, I believe the kheshig's defender features should be at least comparable to those of a protection zealot or a warder to live up to its description. What are your thoughts on this?

AGrinningCat

2021-02-21, 09:48 PM

What are your thoughts on this?

I'll be honest; Akashic Mark is second in line for being fixed. I've earmarked this post for when I start reworking Akashic Mark to feel more 'Akashic-y' -- And I'll take this advice to make sure it feels 'defendery' as well.

Right now I'm mulling over Armored by Akasha based off received feedback (largely from various discords); to which I have an update.

Here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1p8gDT5_oz4jpH13GQGCyIZfFHbDp-skgIiS6YLgOhk8/edit?usp=sharing) is a link that splits the old Armored by Akasha options into their own Armor veils. This updates Akashic Arsenal as well, allowing them to pick them up for free at 3rd and then bind them at 18th for free (which is the level that the body bind comes online at). Ideally, AbA is removed; you get a 'free' armor veil at 3rd, and there will be 8 to choose from (4 currently featured from the old AbA).

Shifting Sands is incomplete now due to the lack of ideas; and I'm more than interested to hear y'alls opinion on this. If it's largely positive, I will go ahead with this change, write up the other four veils, then hammer this into the main document and shift focus to Akashic Mark.

Finally, old Shell-striker Gauntlets were deemed very powerful due to the ability to force a crit with its bind ability. I've included an older version of SSGs in the document for review -- If this is preferred to the newer ones, I'll place that into the document as well.

As always, I look forward to your feedback!

Draacul

2021-02-21, 10:09 PM

Although the "deals damage" clause makes it more fitting for something like a blaster sorcerer than a melee class.

The relevant question here is: How much need is there to mark a creature the kheshig has already been able to successfully target with an attack and deal damage to?
Considering that in many/most cases, the core combat rules, not to mention many of the melee options available to the kheshig, will limit a damaged creature's ability to pose a serious threat anyways, I'd say the enemies a kheshig's party needs to worry the least about are those which the kheshig has already been able to damage.

I disagree here.
Reliable AoE damage that class can inflict isn't something to write home about.I mean,dice here or there won't be limiting anything.So the point here is specifically to make incentives for almost-untouched enemies to target US.And not squishies.

Right now I'm mulling over Armored by Akasha based off received feedback (largely from various discords);
Present heavy armor is missing it's"reduce incoming damage by AC-10"ability.I request for it to be back,because it's the main pull of heavy.
As for Pile Bunker...what?Crit,which you still need to confirm is somehow broken?
Thing works once per encounter and leaves you rearend-naked.
Last time i checked,chargers can do damage with equal multiplier all day.

upho

2021-02-22, 05:39 AM

I disagree here.
Reliable AoE damage that class can inflict isn't something to write home about.I mean,dice here or there won't be limiting anything.Is "that class" referring to sorcerer or kheshig?

If it's referring to the sorcerer My point here is that a blaster sorcerer focuses primarily ranged AoE damage, which is ideal for the purpose of marking with Akashic Mark in its current form. And if the sorcerer's damage "isn't something to write home about", well then the mark is unlikely to be wasted on a pile of corpses. (And as a sidenote, a sorcerer can certainly be built to deal friggin' tons of damage to multiple targets in a large area each round, easily enough to one-shot a very large majority of enemies of a CR above level.)

In contrast, the kheshig has instead exceedingly few ranged AoE damage or similar options, and the mark will exceedingly rarely make any one of those options more worth their action costs than those of the kheshig's single- or "few"-target melee attack options. The reason for this is of course that those single-/few-target melee alternatives can relatively easily be made to ensure it's damn difficult - if not flat-out impossible - for the hit enemy to do anything at all. Which makes the mark kinda redundant, wouldn't you agree?

If it's referring to the kheshig Exactly. So why would the kheshig waste actions on something which will have a negligible impact on the outcome of a combat, when they instead may deal a boatload of damage and/or a number of nasty no-save debuffs to one or two enemies?

TL/DR: The marking mechanic is designed as if intended for a class with a focus on far-reaching "many"-target damage offense, not for the kheshig and its focus on single-/-few-target "high-impact" melee/close offense.

So the point here is specifically to make incentives for almost-untouched enemies to target US.And not squishies.I don't understand. If the kheshig's been able to attack and deal damage to an enemy, it won't be "almost-untouched", but typically anything ranging from "seriously injured, seriously penalized, and/or denied actions", all the way to "at negative hp and/or unable to act for multiple rounds".

As for Pile Bunker...what?Crit,which you still need to confirm is somehow broken?
Thing works once per encounter and leaves you rearend-naked.
Last time i checked,chargers can do damage with equal multiplier all day.I agree. This seems overly cautious, especially considering the damage stuff the kheshig can easily access in mid levels will reliably kill most foes with a normal hit anyways.

AGrinningCat

2021-02-22, 07:13 AM

I agree. This seems overly cautious, especially considering the damage stuff the kheshig can easily access in mid levels will reliably kill most foes with a normal hit anyways.
This was largely in part with using the shell-strikers in tandem with another [enhanced] veil. Also I'm curious about this sentence -- do you feel the Kheshig's damage is too high?

Volfogg

2021-02-22, 11:45 AM

The new armor veils are awesome! Few tweaks here and there is all that is needed. I have added a few comments to the document in regards to this.

Cheers
Volf

upho

2021-02-22, 01:31 PM

This was largely in part with using the shell-strikers in tandem with another [enhanced] veil.Aha. Well, FWIW, my own comparison point would be a charging barbarian with the boar's charge (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo-rage-powers/boar-s-charge) rage power. Which is highly op-friendly for a natural attack supercharger type of build (using options such as: Crown of Horns gore attack which deals double damage on a charge, Horn of the Criosphinx for 2 x Str to damage and the "2-handed" x3 Power Attack bonus, and of course greater beast totem with haste for 2 near certain crits per charge).

I think it's worth keeping in mind that at some point between say 7th and 13th or so, even when using only Paizo options, a primarily martial PC simply optimized for max single-target damage and no regard for table balance can easily become a highly disruptive fun-nuke in most games. And the kheshig isn't very likely to noticeably exacerbate or mitigate this potential issue. On the flip side, the kheshig might help lessen the tendency of especially melee struggling to stay relevant in later levels in games without PoW options. (Well, at least unless the game's very challenging, in which case also high-op Paizo melee rarely prioritizes their damage numbers and tend to make everything else redundant in combat IME.)

Also I'm curious about this sentence -- do you feel the Kheshig's damage is too high?Oh, certainly not. None of the current options in the playtest will make the kheshig's damage problematic AFAICT. Rather the contrary, actually, because while I believe you've done a great job ensuring the usual suspects don't get out of hand (such as free/additional attacks/AoOs), the more explicit damage boosts might be a bit too modest.

I was merely thinking of the fact that the kheshig can get a lot of oomph out of some extremely potent combos of Paizo and especially AM options. For example:
Size Gamla or tiger catfolk (or an aasimar/tiefling/skinwalker descendant) for Large size race.
Reach Shape Veil for Armlets of the Shaitan + Flexible Forms (for reach weapon with any preferred weapon veil) + either of above Large races + any size increase (enlarge person, expansion, metamorphosis, Magnitude Shift, etc) = cheap 40'+ reach and Whirlwind-style attack before 11th.
Damage Shape Veil for Armory of the Conqueror + Vital Strike feats + Greater Trip or any other AoO trigger on every attack + Seize the Opportunity = each reliably triggered AoO easily kills average CR = level monster from 7th or so with Mighty Frame, and rapidly increases in relative damage thereafter. Insane if paired with the above reach combo with its wrist bind Whirlwind-style attack, Vicious Stomp and Ki Throw at about 13th, and even more so because of the tons of additional highly synergizing options available.
Control Dirty Trick Master + Cloak and Dagger Subterfuge + Kitsune Vengeance/Fox Trickery/Seize the Opportunity + Greater Trip or any other AoO trigger on every attack = each reliably triggered AoO makes target dazed for an absolute minimum of 3 rounds. This can typically be made even more insane than the above damage combo when paired with the reach combo, and there are numerous even more highly synergizing options available to a kheshig.

Aside from having an essence pool and a good enhanced capacity growth, the kheshig can make great use of dirt cheap essence forged gauntlets and their "Reinforced essence" for training combat feats, and can also afford to throw a bit more gold at these combos thanks to cheaper item sets via Enhanced veils. But obviously, the kheshig is far from the only class with an easy access to these combos, and IIRC at least a couple of other classes could get even more use out of them (notably the daevic, but maybe also your rajah "egomaniac bastard" offspring the batal and some of the full-bab Akashic archetypes of other classes).

Draacul

2021-02-22, 10:09 PM

If the kheshig's been able to attack and deal damage to an enemy, it won't be "almost-untouched", but typically anything ranging from "seriously injured, seriously penalized, and/or denied actions", all the way to "at negative hp and/or unable to act for multiple rounds".
That's a bit harsh description for one point of splash damage from alchemist's fire.Or 1d6 electricity from these hammers.

In contrast, the kheshig has instead exceedingly few ranged AoE damage or similar options, and the mark will exceedingly rarely make any one of those options more worth their action costs than those of the kheshig's single- or "few"-target melee attack options.
So we have a problem with the mark,then.And we kinda do.I mean,i can live with it till level 5,but after that damage is negligible,and AoO comes up too late to matter.Teleportation,since it occurs after the attack,is also not especially useful.
Basically,opponent,if it's not a goblin,does not have sufficient incentive to hit us,and the rest of the party,in the face.
Should i bring up Rajah again?I think i should.
Rajah presents a VERY strong incentive to target her specifically,because until you get her out of the fight you'll need to face two counters per round for the rest of the party.Oh,and person who you actually WILL target will more likely than not have Rajah's Cha to AC.
I would argue that this presents substantially more attack penalty than 20% miss chance.

AGrinningCat

2021-02-23, 01:22 AM

Draacul

2021-02-23, 01:26 AM

Eldest

2021-02-23, 08:09 AM

Volfogg

2021-02-23, 09:18 AM

Throwing spaghettis at the wall here while I mull over trying to get my pet veil into the doc working on armor veils:

What if the mark worked in reverse? You designate an ally, and that ally receives your protection (however those mechanics manifest). This pushes you away from a tank towards more of a bodyguard, but I'd like to hear y'alls thoughts.
I quite like that idea. And a bodyguard fits given, y'know, the name. Make it so you can change the mark and possibly invest essence in it?
I think this is a great idea, additionally, this "defenders mark" could be a veil with which the Kheshig can invest essence(as mentioned above) and possibly even bind it to certain chakras that alter the defensive effect.

Here's another stray thought, as an alternative (aka archetype for the Kheshid) is to drop the Akashic Mark ability for let's call it Akashic Armaments. This ability would allow the Kheshid to "store" one load out (which consists of one veil with the [Enhanced (weapon)] descriptor and one veil with the [Enhanced (armor)] descriptor. Initially the kheshid could activate this ability as a standard action, this would improve to a move, swift and immediate action through progression in the class. The Kheshid could store one such load out initially, however, at later levels this could increase. The ability could be used either a number of times per day based on the Kheshid's Wisdom modifier or require essence burn to use. This would play very well with the generalist idea and allow the Kheshid to dynamically alter his setup to better respond to encounters.

Cheers
Volf

AGrinningCat

2021-02-23, 05:30 PM

Draacul

2021-02-23, 08:57 PM

Giving everyone a 20% miss chance in your party might make things frustrating for encounter balance.
Oh horror we can duplicate ability of level 3 Mystic.
But i'm all for improving mark with essence somehow.
And as long as we can protect at least two targets-it's OK,though,again,protection have to be substantial.At absolute least counter-equivalent,because that's what Rajah and Warder can do.
As for Unyielding-my initial impressions is a)i don't get how many damage gets removed at the start of the turn and b)well,it's a delayed damage pool of unprecedented size coupled with extremely,horribly bad healing effect.We are talking"worse than 1st level strikes"healing.
In my opinion,binds are in extreme need of rework-because i look at them and see that they are doing essentially nothing.
Also,can we get"undetectable"descriptor for that neat monk armor and maybe somehow replace this useless-after-level-3 damage effect with a proper and thematic roundhouse kick to the face?Make it an use an attack of opportunity if you're worried about resources.

AGrinningCat

2021-02-23, 09:27 PM

Oh horror we can duplicate ability of level 3 Mystic.

I'm not using Path of War as a balance point -- Path of War classes and disciplines (on average) are much stronger than other classes, so I feel that balancing around them would be in poor form. Balance points should probably be around other non-PoW akashic classes, or if you're not familiar with them, perhaps Psionic classes or Spheres of Might. I realize other classes can get up to the damage of PoW, but PoW does have a much, much higher floor.

For some odd reason, Unyielding was missing the amount removed. I've added that in. Also are you referring to Shifting Sands for the 'Monk Armor'?

Draacul

2021-02-23, 09:39 PM

I'm not using Path of War as a balanced point
That much is obvious,because that would set the power level plank so high one needs a satellite launch vehicle to reach it.But i'd like to note that for Mystic said ability is barely a line in a very long list.It's not his absolute highs.It's not even a damaging ability!
My opinion on the matter is that balance can very much go to hell,because it did so already since Core Rulebook.Class needs to be fun to play.Which means that class-defining abilities should be uniquely powerful.Not necessary in numbers,but in fun stuff.
Many of SoM classes are indeed fun to play.Psionic classes are fun to play,especially later ones.I do love Highlord.

Also are you referring to Shifting Sands for the 'Monk Armor'?
Yes.With fifty-plus new veils it's not very easy to remember what they are doing,much less names.Just like i referred to Shell-Striker Gauntlets as Pile Bunker-it's a relatively well-understood term.
Also,about Unyielding.
I have a sneaking suspicion that removal of half damage should happen not at the start of the turn,but at the end.
Other delayed damage pools do,at least.I checked whole two-original Crusader from ToB and Guardian sphere from Spheres of Might.
I also don't think it's fun to not die during enemy turn only to die at the beginning of your own without a chance to do something about it.
Update:Mod to superior reflexes.
I liked AoO-focused version more.It gave options and incorporated into combos.Also was perfect for upcoming archer.
And,worst of all,i didn't managed to save that old version!
Where was i?Ah.Options!Evasion isn't an option.It's just"not being hit in the face that hard".Neither is increasing reflexes-it's just a numbers game.
Whereas these AoO tricks is something one can build entire character around by itself.

Eldest

2021-02-24, 12:47 AM

A reverse mark (your Charge) would probably only extend out to one person, or have the amount of people be limited in some fashion. Giving everyone a 20% miss chance in your party might make things frustrating for encounter balance.

While I'm loathe to put essence containers into class features, I might end up going that route. You invest essence into the class feature and then your party member/mark gains defensive benefits from it; while you may gain incentives to attack people (accuracy, damage) who attacked your charge. I'll have to write things out to see how it pans, but I do want to say, again, that going this route will most likely reduce the amount of people you can protect. If we feel this is a better decision, however, I'll hammer it down.

I'd have it be able to be switched around fairly easily and tie it to one person at first, scaling up very slowly from there (like, 1 more person per 8 levels in the class level of slow), and then just emphasis the heck out of being that person's bodyguard. You get to interpose yourself between them and attacks, help their saves out, bonus damage against people that attack them, stuff like that. Focus on stuff that the Kheshig actively does (hitting people and protecting their ward) instead of making it a passive bonus to the Ward's defense.

An alternative suggestion to the scaling: the ability to switch who is marked as the Ward as an immediate action, possibly with essence burn required, and possibly as the same action to activate one of the active defensive abilities that the Kheshig would have for their ward. Lot of ideas here, take what appeals and ditch what doesn't.

AGrinningCat

2021-02-24, 12:53 AM

Also,about Unyielding.

I'll move Unyielding's damage trigger to end of turn.

At this point, all of the armor veils are written. I have noted that, although I wanted to keep veils simple, only one veil (Still Waters, Clear Skies) had more than a single shape slot. With armor veils existing, having them shaped to multiple slots hopefully brings that to the player's attention that this is something veils can do.

If there are no complaints, I'll move these into the main document on Friday. Following this; I'll begin work on Akashic Mark. The design goals for Akashic mark will be

1) A rename, first and foremost, to reflect its bodyguard-like nature. The target of your mark will be called your 'Charge' ("a person or thing entrusted to the care of someone." as per oxford dictionary).
2) Reflection of it being an akashic ability. This will probably be you investing essence into your ability or the Charge; depending on how wording hammers out. Essentially, you can dump essence into them when they are in danger, or pull it out when they are safe, changing as the battle goes.
3) Changing the abilities to focus on protection of your charge, followed by retaliation against targets that attack your charge.
3a) Ideally, your charge should receive some sort of passive benefit from being your charge. This will probably be miss chance, with interception of attacks or redirection of damage at higher levels.
3b) Retaliation against creatures that attack your Charge. In addition to whatever defensive benefits, this could be 'marking' the target(s) that attack your charge, and then give you retaliatory damage against them. Other benefits will be increased movement speed when moving towards marked targets

If there's anything to add before then, do let me know.

Draacul

2021-02-24, 01:01 AM

At this point, all of the armor veils are written
Now we're talking.There is actually quite a lot of synergy now.One can be motivated to get more than one armor veil.
Hell,i am thinking about it,and my character i'm doing it for is silly Technician pulling these veils via not-yet-released Spheres of Akasha.
Minor complaint:i do think that bonus to AC from AoO is a minor enough thing so that it should increase with each essence,not just odd ones.
Next,Tattered Cloths.
I'm reading it and i still don't get whether or not miss chance from opponent missing us should stack with itself and if so,to what total percentage.Maybe clarify that a bit?
Phase Weave Vest:Is 2*stat mod is a total possible increase to veil's armor or is it a total possible armor?
Plate of the Mountain i very much like.Being a square of a wall is something relatively unique and very useful.Now puny Khan can actually properly hide behind us.
Juggernaut Plating looks very niche to me.And not at all being within class's feel.We are bodyguard that breaks walls?Really?How often is that useful in that line of work?

AGrinningCat

2021-02-24, 01:02 AM

Double posting since I missed posted while posting:

Update:Mod to superior reflexes.
I liked AoO-focused version more.It gave options and incorporated into combos.Also was perfect for upcoming archer.
And,worst of all,i didn't managed to save that old version!
Where was i?Ah.Options!Evasion isn't an option.It's just"not being hit in the face that hard".Neither is increasing reflexes-it's just a numbers game.
Whereas these AoO tricks is something one can build entire character around by itself.

I'd like to keep a split of 'simple' and 'complex' choices for each tier of armor for the armor veils. I feel that Superior Reflexes is good as is for a 'shape and forget', while Unyielding is more on the 'complex' side. That being said, I aim to please, so I'll put up the other and let people take a vote on it.

Lot of ideas here, take what appeals and ditch what doesn't.

I want to avoid granting too many charges for the Kheshig to take care of. I might allow a feat for another charge, but I do feel that your charge should be a meaningful choice; both in and out of character. You seem to be on the same track as I though for everything else, but we'll see what shakes out in the future for Akashic Mark v2.

Minor complaint:i do think that bonus to AC from AoO is a minor enough thing so that it should increase with each essence,not just odd ones.

I'm open for suggestions.

Draacul

2021-02-24, 01:31 AM

I'm open for suggestions.
Well,i updated my post above.About Reflexes v2:I do think that bonus to AC against AoO should scale 1:1 to essence.Trivial enough and removes this pesky feeling that you don't get something when you invest essence.
I also do think that last line of Body bind should not,in fact,be there.Simply chain of AoOs at cumulative penalty.
First of all,it's 18th level ability.
Can't we let poor frontliner to have his moment in the sun?Wait,am i quoting Galavant here?
Second of all,we've been throwing several attacks with each AoO since level 2 via Still Water,Clear Sky and Staff of Thousand Pains.Making a few more at gradually decreasing bonus isn't that notable,really.I mean,after three to five attacks at our full bonus,will the opponent even survive to our third iterative AoO?And if so,can we hit?

I might allow a feat for another charge, but I do feel that your charge should be a meaningful choice; both in and out of character.
I do think that in that case protection needs to be really good.Both better than Bodyguard feat,because anybody can get that and probably better than average counter,because these are barely effective in defending target.

Efrate

2021-02-24, 10:37 AM

Does unyeildings body bind get double bonus to damage? Shoulder gets that, and bodybis shoulder plus damage. I think its fine just clarity.

V2 on superior reflexes(cant comment something on my end messing up). As an offensive bodyguard just moving does next to nothing to reduce threat to your charge. Taking things out the fight does.

upho

2021-02-24, 03:00 PM

Bodyguard-ish Akashic Mark stuffFor a more tank-y ability, why not flip this around so that the kheshig instead suppresses a specific foe's ability affect anyone but the kheshig? Though this would be a "mark" in some sense, it would ideally differ quite substantially from existing mark (or similar) abilities, and instead work more along the same lines as the 4E Shielding Swordmage's "Aegis" ability (which you're hopefully familiar with).

At its most basic, this would be something like (values are mere examples):

"A kheshig can project a field of Akashic energy around a nearby enemy, hampering its ability to harm her allies. As a swift action, the kheshig can mark an enemy she can see within short range. A marked creature takes a -3 penalty on attack rolls that does not target the kheshig, and her allies gain a +3 bonus on saving throws against the marked creature's spells, powers and abilities. These effects also apply to any creatures bonded to the marked enemy (such as an animal companion, special mount, or familiar), and any creatures summoned or called by the marked enemy. The penalty and the bonus increases by +1 at 4th level and at every 4 levels thereafter, to a maximum of -8 and +8 at 20th level. The mark immediately ends if the marked creature is unable to pinpoint the kheshig's exact location, but otherwise remains for 1 minute, until the marked creature dies or is destroyed, or until the kheshig uses this ability to mark another creature, whichever happens first."

Note that I deliberately chose not to use miss chance or ASF for this basic version, since IME additional die rolls tend to slow combat down.

A few possible upgrades to the power of the mark (from levels, invested essence, feats, choice of Fighting Styles, etc):

The first time each round a target other than the kheshig takes damage from marked enemy, the damage is reduced by 50% (applied after any DR, resistances etc). This does not stack with similar abilities.
Marked enemy provokes an AoO from the kheshig the first time each round it makes an attack roll against a target other than the kheshig.
Marked enemy's spell/power gain a 20% failure chance, +1% per level of the kheshig, if the spell targets an ally of the kheshig or an area which includes any of the kheshig's allies but not the kheshig.
Marked enemy takes 1d6 damage per 2 levels of the kheshig the first time it targets an ally of the kheshig or an area including an ally but not the kheshig. This damage is taken before the enemy completes the triggering action, and is not reduced by any damage reduction, resistances or immunities the enemy may have.
Marked enemy takes a penalty to CMD equal to the kheshig's veilweaving modifier, and the enemy is treated as if the same size as the kheshig (minimum Medium size) for the purpose of determining its CMD and whether it can be a target of a combat maneuver. (Average monster CMD values and size typically increase faster than many of the kheshig's CMB values will even when supported with feats, items, spells and high ability scores.)
Marked enemy's speed is reduced by 10 feet, and is halved for 1 round if it targets ally/area (as per above).
Marked enemy is outlined as per fairy fire for 1 round if it targets ally/area (as per above).
Marked enemy is bound as per dimensional anchor for 1 round if it targets ally/area (as per above).
The kheshig gains blindsight within short range and a bonus to Perception checks equal to the kheshig's veilweaving modifier, but only for the purpose of detecting a marked enemy.
Prevent the marked enemy from using one specific special attack or ability the kheshig has witnessed the enemy use or knows the enemy can use (through monster lore checks).
Prevent the marked enemy from making its first attack when taking any action allowing it to make multiple attacks.
Allies are protected as per protection from evil against attacks or effects created by the marked enemy, treating the enemy's alignment as evil for this purpose (regardless of its actual alignment).
Allies are protected as per freedom of movement against attacks or effects created by the marked enemy

A few possible upgrades to the application of the mark (from levels, invested essence, feats, choice of Fighting Styles, etc):

Apply mark as a free action once per round.
Mark enemy when making a successful attack roll against it.
Apply mark as part of rolling initiative, even if surprised.
Mark one or more additional enemies without removing existing marks.
Whenever applying a mark, the mark also applies to a second enemy within 10 feet of the first.
Mark all enemies within 10 feet for 1 round as a move action.
Mark all enemies within a 10 feet radius area in short range for 1 round as a move action.

I think this would be more fun and suitable as a core feature than a bodyguard-styled one.

upho

2021-02-24, 07:07 PM

A few comments on the armor veils:

Superior Reflexes (both versions): ...you may add your veilweaving modifier to your AC and to your CMD, and may substitute your Strength modifier in place of your Dexterity modifier for the purposes of calculating your AC and your Constitution Modifier in place of your Dexterity modifier for the purposes of calculating your CMD.Somewhere in mid levels at the latest, it appears to me that this will grant an AC clearly superior to that of full plate. For example, assuming a kheshig at 10th level with Str 24 (16 base, 2 race, 2 level, 2 belt, 2 size), Dex 10 (12 base, -2 size), Con 16 (14 base, 2 belt) and Wis 18 (14 base, 2 race, 2 headband), and disregarding any bonuses to AC besides those provided by an armor veil (without enhancement or essence) and the above ability scores:

Full plate veil: AC 18, touch 9, flat-footed 18; CMD 28 (9 full plate armor to AC, -1 size; 10 bab, 7 Str, +1 size)
Superior Reflexes: AC 20, touch 20, flat-footed 13; CMD 35 (4 Wis to AC, 7 Str in place of Dex, -1 size; 10 bab, 7 Str, 4 Wis to CMD, 3 Con in place of Dex, +1 size)

And at 20th level, assuming quite modest scores of Str 36, Dex 10, Con 20 and Wis 24, the full plate veil's AC bonuses remain the same and CMD has increased to 44. In contrast, Superior Reflexes now grants AC 28, touch 28, flat-footed 16 and CMD 56 (7 Wis to AC, 13 Str in place of Dex, -1 size; 20 bab, 13 Str, 7 Wis to CMD, 5 Con in place of Dex, +1 size)

Especially when considering that there's typically a high incentive for a kheshig to gain uncanny dodge regardless of its effects on AC, and that Superior Reflexes grants AFAICT veil benefits at least equal to those of any of the full plate veils, why would a kheshig choose a full plate veil after 7th level or so?

Superior Reflexes V2 Creatures who make attacks of opportunities against you must roll twice and take the worse result.

Essence: Each odd point of essence invested in this veil grants you a +1 bonus to AC versus attacks of opportunity. Each even point of essence invested in this veil grants you a +1 bonus to AC.I think enemies using worst of two rolls would've been a nice boon with normal full plate AC, but since the veil grants such substantial AC bonuses, it's worth noting this is close to granting immunity to AoOs.

Superior Reflexes V2 Chakra Bind (Shoulders): Whenever a creature makes an attack of opportunity against you, they provoke an attack of opportunity from you. Whenever you make an attack of opportunity, roll twice and take the better result.At the level when this comes online, it's a very strong defensive trigger for a kheshig focused on AoOs, at least until enemies have figured out that making AoOs against the kheshig is suicide. I'm unsure whether it's too strong though. It's certainly far stronger than the somewhat comparable Panther Style feat chain which requires a minimum of 4 feats, but also far weaker than the barb's CaGM at 12th. Hmm... It might be good idea to limit this to say 1/round and +1/round per 2 essence invested.

Draacul

2021-02-24, 11:53 PM

upho

2021-02-25, 09:57 AM

I think reasonable fix here is to either make it add half Str instead of full or maybe limit the maximum for..hmm...essence investment?Every 1 essence allow you to apply up to two Str instead of Dex?This can scale to the same amount,yes,but also will eat essence like crrrazy.I think both the "Str in place of Dex" and the "Wis to AC" parts are problematic. First off, I believe the Wis part should say:

"you may increase your armor bonus to AC with an amount equal to your veilweaving modifier"

not (my emphasis):

"you may add your veilweaving modifier to your AC"

That way, the veil at least doesn't add two high modifiers to touch AC.

Second, since the veil is obviously geared towards the same idea as heavy armors - making a low Dex viable - I believe your suggestion of "half Str in place of Dex" would be appropriate. This would in most cases grant a lower AC than plate before teen levels, but still a higher touch AC and later level superiority, making it less of a no-brainer. And of course, this doesn't mean the veil is no longer potentially problematic if other classes can access it through Shape Veil or archetypes (especially barbarians and full bab archetypes granting mutagen and/or rage would still love to get their grubby little hands on this).

Finally, the "Wis to CMD"-part is not only redundant as the veil is currently written (since untyped bonuses to AC apply to CMD per default), but also a straight bonus above what full plate grants a Str-based kheshig. I think this should simply be scratched, so that with the above change to "Wis to armor bonus to AC", users of this veil still have to consider the impact a low Dex has on their CMD.

I do have reasons to assume that by level at which Shoulders bind is available,assuming there are any witnesses at all,anything with a mind greater than of common frog will NOT be taking AoOs against the user.Uhm... Speaking from personal experience of having been "the mind" of many supposedly highly intelligent opponents, I have to admit even those sometimes acted in a way a that would make a common frog appear like a tactical genius... :smallredface:

But yes, generally speaking, you wouldn't get more than one or maybe two AoOs out of this per combat. Which is a big part of why I called it near immunity when combined with the high miss chances. So yeah, my suggested limit on the number of AoOs would probably have little effect in most combats against enemies (or GMs) at least as smart as common frogs, since enemies are unlikely to be aware of the limit.

And immunity to AoOs or plain AoO prevention is reasonably easy.In fact,it's a very literally first-level spell that doesn't allow a save.
So while flashy and fun,it's not OP or even that useful,really.The spell isn't even remotely as powerful, since it eats a swift, a spell slot (useless as wand/scroll/potion), and only protects against AoOs triggered by movement during a single round. That said, I agree that it's flashy and fun, and I guess actually challenging melee opponents with superior reach would still be a problem.

Draacul

2021-02-25, 10:39 AM

Or maybe,just maybe,we can ditch Str to AC entirely?
Because it seems to me that V2 wins the vote like it would if i was the one counting the votes without any oversight,therefore,i propose that instead of adding Str to AC in place of Dex,what veil should do is add Str to Reflex instead of Dex!Or maybe even casting stat!Warblade did it i don't remember anybody calling that OP.
This way you'll get literal Superior Reflexes when build is right,and since Reflex-based effects are largely of questionable usefulness-it's not even that much of a broken ability.
Certainly far less than adding Str to AC.

AGrinningCat

2021-02-26, 07:43 PM

The day has come! Armor veils have been merged into the main document, and armored by Akasha has changed too.

Some notes:
Superior Reflexes lost STR to AC, as discussed here. I want to make sure its not underperforming, so keep an eye on it.
Old Juggernaut plating is now called Shards of Steel
Speaking of underperforming: Armor of Silk and Steel isn't great. I like the idea of it being a form veil, but I feel its current effects are too weak. I'm considering splitting it vs ranged/melee instead of physical/energy, but I fear it may be too much power with Shards of Steel versus ranged. If you have any suggestions, I'm all ears
Shell striker gauntlets have been updated as well.

Work begins on Akashic Mark. I'll probably be moving it over towards a bodyguard role, as discussed earlier. It'll probably be updated in the Working Doc, so you can keep an eye on its development there, which will probably start late tonight and into tomorrow.

I am also looking towards getting veils proliferated -- If you think there's a good veil that should be on the Kheshig list, or a Kheshig veil that would be good on another class, feel free to post your suggestions here!

StSword

2021-02-26, 09:48 PM

For unyielding, "As a move action, you may remove up to your veilweaving modifier in damage from this veil."

I presume this is supposed to be healing, but it lacks the "character doesn't take damage from doing so" disclaimer that the other incidents have.

AGrinningCat

2021-02-26, 10:20 PM

Draacul

2021-02-26, 11:01 PM

AGrinningCat

2021-02-26, 11:11 PM

I still don't get how many damage Pile Bunker...err...Shell-striker Gauntlets do.
Is it stat mod of each fire and force,or is it stat mod total.
Shards of Steel is simple and useful.
Two complaints.First is that it mentions spells.Spells target armor bonus only in case of AP rules,but even then AP is so high that even doubling probably won't help.
Second is that bind is WAAAY too weak and silly.I'm sorry,but Mirror Rapier exists,and it requires only hands bind to properly tell that wizard exactly where he can stuff his Disintegrate spell.
Body binds are basically capstone abilities.This is maybe a Head.Not even Headband.
No,strike that,Mirror Rapier doesn't require bind at all!And here we have Body bind requirement,immediate action AND burning essence?

Ranged touch attacks target AC. I'll look into Shards of Steel's bind.

As far as SSGs, what part of the wording is the issue? The intent is:

0) Shell is loaded
1) You hit with an attack
2) Discharge shell, dealing veilweaving mod + 1d10 per essence invested in the veil. Record damage.
3) Spike impales target
4) At the start of the creature's turn, they take damage equal to half of the recorded damage. This happens 3 times.
5) At the 3rd time, in addition to the above damage, the shell explodes, and they take twice the damage, which should be the recorded shell's damage.

If it's not reading this way to you, let me know what's wrong and I'll try to fix it.

Draacul

2021-02-26, 11:27 PM

Ranged touch attacks target AC.
And usually ignore armor bonus,which Shards of Steel improves.

2) Discharge shell, dealing veilweaving mod + 1d10 per essence invested in the veil. Record damage.

You see....

additional fire and force damage equal to your veilweaving modifier (minimum 3)
I'm reading this as additional fire AND force damage equal to mod.So,two mods,one fire and one force.
And apparently i was right that this wasn't the intent.
So,i'm voting for it to be left as is.Class is obviously not a caster so won't have casting mod properly high.Hell,maybe improve it in a bind!Say,not 1d10,but 1d10+mod fire OR force.

AGrinningCat

2021-02-26, 11:55 PM

And usually ignore armor bonus,which Shards of Steel improves
Behold! I am an idiot!
SoS will be changed to an insight bonus to AC.

I'm reading this as additional fire AND force damage equal to mod.So,two mods,one fire and one force.

The intent is that the damage type is split, since fire is a very commonly resisted damage type, you're at least getting half damage out of it. If the damage seems low, I'll look to improve it, but I'm leery about too much damage since the veil is very good on the alpha as is.

Draacul

2021-02-27, 12:06 AM

Behold! I am an idiot!
SoS will be changed to an insight bonus to AC.
No,you are not and please don't.Everything grants insight bonus in Akasha.Courtesan's Cloak exists,for example.
Better allow the bind to apply your armor bonus to touch AC or something on that level.

the veil is very good on the alpha as is.
Not really.I mean,it's purely secondary,for starters,and we are looking at best at 1d10+3 extra at level 1.Or at 3d10+3 at level 6.That's not something to write home about.Especially since,yes,fire is the most common energy resistance.
It WAS good alpha back when it was auto-critting.

StSword

2021-02-27, 01:41 AM

Draacul

2021-02-27, 02:10 AM

I can live with deflection bonus.

AGrinningCat

2021-02-27, 02:19 AM

"Metal plates that are reinforced with the veilweaver’s essence hover around the veilweaver, intercepting attacks from afar."

Sounds like a deflection bonus to me.

Which nicely, still adds to touch AC.

Done and dusted.

Essence Bound Duty (the replacement for Akashic mark)is written in the working doc, sans the level 13 ability, which I'm drawing a blank on. If you have suggestions or would like to leave comments, feel free to do so!

Draacul

2021-02-27, 02:33 AM

Done and dusted.

Essence Bound Duty (the replacement for Akashic mark)is written in the working doc, sans the level 13 ability, which I'm drawing a blank on. If you have suggestions or would like to leave comments, feel free to do so!
My first impression is that,with sufficient essence investment,our charge becomes very literally untouchable barring True Strike-class effects in place.
And i'm PERFECTLY OK WITH IT.Because essence investment required is indeed extreme.
Next,what i see is that ability is suffering from split personality disorder.If we're within fifteen feet-our target can't be hit but if we go away he can be.And base ability allows us to move away.
Why would we want to move away?
Where is my alchemist's fire?This way i can hit all of them without leaving the side of the target,and ignore all resistance and immunities anyways.
Eat that,Colossal Red Dragon,i finally get to use your minature(well,a over a feet high,but still)after fifteen years and you'll die to a very literal alchemist's fire!
A frikkin shame.

AGrinningCat

2021-02-27, 03:58 AM

Next,what i see is that ability is suffering from split personality disorder.If we're within fifteen feet-our target can't be hit but if we go away he can be.And base ability allows us to move away.
Why would we want to move away?

Base ability is less about moving away from your charge, and moving to delete whatever poor sod attacked them. Useful if you're not within 15ft of them, like if you're on a frontline tying up some nasty creatures. An option in your pocket, should you need it. Reminder that you are melee (for this archetype, anyways), so having that mobility to get you into range to pummel an idiot isn't bad to have.

Draacul

2021-02-27, 05:57 AM

I do like new Shell-Striker Gauntlets.Simple,easy to use,and when powered up are quite enough to atomize the target at the end of combat at relevant levels.
I do think that either essence investment should do something else or bind in part increasing the amount of heat.
I also do think that in the bind,stat mod limit should be removed.Again,it's insight bonus-it's easy.Hitting people in the face a lot of times isn't so easy.

Kris Moonhand

2021-02-27, 08:12 AM

My thoughts on the proliferation of veils to other lists. Crossposted from Discord. Go ahead and post if you agree, disagree, whatever.

Weapon Veils:
Staff of Ten-Thousand Truths
Definite: Daevic, Guru
Maybe: Eclipse, Lunar, Stormbound

Dancing Glaive
Definite: Daevic, Guru
Maybe: Eclipse, Lunar, Helmsman, Nexus, Stormbound

Swirling Sirocco
Definite: Eclipse, Guru, Lunar, Helmsman
Maybe: Daevic, Nexus, Stormbound

Hardlight Axe
Definite: Daevic, Guru, Lunar, Helmsman
Maybe: Nexus, Radiant

Juggernaut Blade
Definite: Daevic, Helmsman
Maybe: Lunar

Mark of the Gate Guardian
Definite: Daevic, Helmsman
Maybe: Lunar, Radiant

Twin Thunders
Definite: Guru, Helmsman, Stormbound
Maybe: Daevic, Lunar

Blade of the Mirror Knight
Definite: Eclipse, Guru, Helmsman, Lunar
Maybe: Daevic, Nexus, Radiant, Vizier

Mark of the Wounded Beast
Definite: Guru, Eclipse, Lunar, Nexus, Vizier
Maybe: Daevic, Stormbound

Shell-striker Gauntlets
Definite: Guru, Helmsman
Maybe: Daevic, Eclipse

Still Waters, Clear Skies
Definite: Guru, Eclipse
Maybe: Daevic

Destruction Hammer
Definite: Daevic, Guru, Helmsman, Lunar
Maybe: Eclipse, Stormbound

Blade of Stone and Air
Definite: Daevic, Guru, Lunar
Maybe: Stormbound

Armaments of Faith
Definite: Daevic, Helmsman, Radiant
Maybe: Lunar
Armor Veils:
Superior Reflexes
Definite: Eclipse, Guru
Maybe: none

Unyielding
Definite: Eclipse, Guru
Maybe: none

Tattered Cloths
Definite: Eclipse, Guru
Maybe: none

Phase Weave Vest
Definite: Daevic, Eclipse, Guru, Nexus
Maybe: Lunar, Radiant, Vizier

Runic Breastplate
Definite: Daevic
Maybe: Radiant, Stormbound

Armor of Steel and Silk
Definite: Daevic, Stormbound
Maybe: Radiant

Juggernaut Plating
Definite: Daevic
Maybe: none

Plate of the Mountain
Definite: Daevic
Maybe: none
GrinningCat has stated he plans on giving veils that add a bonus to a skill check to the classes that have that skill as a class skill, so this last one is only gonna be for veils that don't give a bonus to skill checks. There are some veils in my suggestions that say "Vizier (FK)". That means I suggest that veil be added to the Vizier list for the sake of the Fisherking, which uses that list. Currently, there is only one veil which is on the Fisherking list and isn't on the Vizier list, the Sword of Kingship. Up to you if you want to add more to that amount or just give it to Vizier and save the hassle.
Citadel Banner
Definite: Daevic, Guru, Lunar
Maybe: Helmsman, Nexus, Vizier (FK)

Barrier Belt
Definite: Guru, Helmsman, Lunar, Nexus, Radiant, Vizier
Maybe: Stormbound

Captor's Chain
Definite: Daevic, Eclipse, Guru, Helmsman, Radiant
Maybe: Lunar

Dark Heart
Definite: Eclipse, Stormbound
Maybe: Any???

Eye of Revealing
Definite: Eclipse, Guru, Helmsman, Lunar
Maybe: Nexus, Radiant, Vizier

Wildfang Necklace
Definite: Daevic, Lunar, Stormbound
Maybe: Guru, Radiant, Vizier (FK)

Heart Link Cuirass
Definite: Guru, Helmsman, Lunar, Radiant, Vizier (FK)
Maybe: Stormbound

Sprinter's Boots
Definite: ???
Maybe: Any???

Sash of Four Seasons
Definite: Guru, Helmsman, Lunar, Nexus, Radiant, Stormbound, Vizier
Maybe: Daevic

Frigid Grasp
Definite: Daevic, Eclipse, Guru, Helmsman, Lunar, Stormbound
Maybe: Nexus

Broken Shackles
Definite: Daevic, Eclipse, Guru, Helmsman, Lunar
Maybe: Radiant

Lion's Heart
Definite: Daevic, Guru, Helmsman, Lunar, Radiant
Maybe: Vizier (FK)

Angel's Feather
Definite: Guru, Lunar
Maybe: Nexus, Vizier (FK)

Black Veil
Definite: Daevic, Eclipse, Guru, Lunar
Maybe: Nexus, Radiant, Vizier

Shards of Steel
Definite: ???
Maybe: Any???

Deathgrip Gauntlets
Definite: Daevic, Guru, Helmsman
Maybe: Radiant

Bindings of the Immortal
Definite: Daevic, Guru, Helmsman
Maybe: Radiant

Charred Angelic Wings
Definite: Daevic, Eclipse, Helmsman, Lunar, Stormbound
Maybe: Nexus, Vizier

Draacul

2021-02-27, 08:32 AM

17th level Mark ability feels like a literal slap to the face.
At the very least it should be "1/day immediate action True Resurrection to the target"instead of"we die for some reason,no save".Some bodyguard!
And between 1st level and this i don't think that any intervening ability should be in any way defensive.We already have crazy spellfailure and automiss from level 1.Anything beyond is pretty much pointless.
My thoughts about proliferation:Daevic should get everything possible and then some,because then i can poach stuff via Aegis.
And it is probably correct at least in regard to armor and weapon veils.
Also,Daevic can use all the help it can get.
Silk armor is still very much weak.And not fun.Which is bad because other armors are fun.

Kris Moonhand

2021-02-27, 02:48 PM

17th level Mark ability feels like a literal slap to the face.
At the very least it should be "1/day immediate action True Resurrection to the target"instead of"we die for some reason,no save".Some bodyguard!There is the Bindings of the Immortal veil, which you can bind right after you get that ability. Might be a reason for that.

Draacul

2021-02-28, 06:10 AM

But maybe,just maybe,and i know it sounds a bit crazy,we can have an ability that doesn't suck in the first place instead of one requiring most powerful bind in the game AND veil slot to fix?

AGrinningCat

2021-03-02, 05:14 AM

Small update: There is the full Essence Bound Duty listed in the working doc, with Shell-strikers, Armor of Steel and Silk, and Aura of Rage (new!) all posted there, waiting comments.
Armor of Steel and Silk cannibalized the old Shards of Steel into its feature, and in its place is Aura of Rage (old visage of rage), a veil that's a great way to kill people (or die trying).

Furthermore, I've gone back and looked at the old Kheshig ranged archetype, and I probably will be converting it into an alternate class feature and baking in the options into base Kheshig. There's a few reasons for this, but the primary one is that Kheshig drifted a bit in its mechanics that 1) The Kheshig leaned more into a bodyguard role, and B) the mechanics became very aligned with what the ranged archetype was already doing (investing essence into your enemy rather than your ally) -- In fact, the only thing that the ranged archetype replaced was Fighting styles (for ranged ones), and the melee veils in exchange for a smaller list of ranged ones.

With the archetype changing very few things, I've decided to take this route. I'm making this post so that I'm transparent in my dealings -- I promised a ranged archetype, and I won't quite be delivering a ranged archetype, but a host of ranged options for base Kheshig, and an alternate class feature replacing Kheshig's Essence Bound Duty; transforming them in more standard damage dealer than a bodyguard. This means that you'll be able to build Kheshig as a Melee or Ranged protector, or Melee or Ranged damage dealer, instead of the previous Melee protector or ranged damage dealer. This also gives both variants of the class (ranged or melee) the option for 'backup' weapons, which I may print a feat for to make things easier.

So this update on Wednesday will be the 'damage' ACF and ranged options. Friday, I'm hoping to get a list of proliferations out for all of the veils, which should have been shaken out by then. As always, I'm available for feedback or discussion, so feel free to let me know your thoughts.'

Draacul

2021-03-02, 10:06 AM

So,i think that 17th level Mark ability is...passable.Not perfect,but since it can prevent our poor silly target from dying a lot of times and we don't necessary need to die-it's OK.
Rage is kind of an infinite combo right now.Target hits us,damages us,we damage them with base effect,force them to make an attack,if they hit we damage them with base effect and force them to make and attack,if they miss we make an attack against them,damage them,goto4.
Unless this is intended-it needs to be fixed.I do like the concept now.
And i always like more options to the base class as opposed to archetypes-simply because poaching them would be easier.
Disclaimer:chances are,most likely i won't ever play Kheshig.In fact,the only full veilweaver i've ever played was Rajah.
But each and every soul at my table is now using Kheshig's veilweaving list as a primary one!Even silly Highlord!
That wouldn't be happening if class features weren't turned into veils.

AGrinningCat

2021-03-02, 07:25 PM

Rage is kind of an infinite combo right now.Target hits us,damages us,we damage them with base effect,force them to make an attack,if they hit we damage them with base effect and force them to make and attack,if they miss we make an attack against them,damage them,goto4.
Unless this is intended-it needs to be fixed.I do like the concept now.

I had changed the triggering condition on the shape (Standard action to 'whenever you damage') when I was fiddling with it to make it less bad, and forgot to add in the conditional. This should be fixed now.

AGrinningCat

2021-03-03, 07:21 AM

And i always like more options to the base class as opposed to archetypes-simply because poaching them would be easier.
Disclaimer:chances are,most likely i won't ever play Kheshig.In fact,the only full veilweaver i've ever played was Rajah.
But each and every soul at my table is now using Kheshig's veilweaving list as a primary one!Even silly Highlord!
That wouldn't be happening if class features weren't turned into veils.

I don't know if this is a good thing or not.

How is highlord getting akashic stuff, if you don't mind me asking? Did an akashic archetype come out with it?

AGrinningCat

2021-03-03, 09:32 AM

It's Wednesday! That means its time for updates!
Essence Bound Duty, Armor of Steel and Silk, Shell-striker Gauntlets, and Aura of Rage have been moved into the playtest document. In the working document is now the ranged ACF that replaces Essence Bound Duty, 5 new ranged veils, a new fighting style, and a new feat. As always, I'm here for feedback, so don't feel shy to grab my attention about these things!

As a note, this Friday or Saturday I'll have the veils proliferated out to other lists. If you have suggestions, now would be the time to throw them in!

Draacul

2021-03-03, 09:53 AM

I don't know if this is a good thing or not.

How is highlord getting akashic stuff, if you don't mind me asking? Did an akashic archetype come out with it?
Well,consider that i didn't use any fighter-related stuff through entirety of Pathfinder.When i see a monster block including fighter-i just rebuild it.So the entirety of effort(if there was one)involved in fighter class or anything related was wasted on me-simply because class is bad,boring,and i can't get anything interesting from it via poaching.This applies for A LOT of things.
Whereas your class isn't even released yet and already i use it.Now,i use it not with the same chassis,but you can be safely assured that at least four people were,in fact,having fun with it.
I know it's not much,but it's quite a lot for my group.
Highlord got akashic stuff through not-yet-released-but-available-for-playtest Spheres of Akasha.
Same as everybody else,really.
We have a heavy-spheres game with no classes above or below Tier 3,and this veil list fits into campaign idea very nicely,and is generally pretty good!
So,feedback.
New ranged mark is fine,but does it really need to be swift action with no possibility to reduce?I mean,i know that assassins rarely attack in packs,but sometimes they do.Remember Caesar?
Marksman is a frikkin wunderwaffe.I guess if one allows rifles in the first place-why not?
Wolf is fine.I mean,yes,an immortal animal companion,but that's not that impressive after Lunar.
Bow is a bit unclear in "increase number of ice arrows"
Dagger requires clarifying.Namely,am i correct that we can have a literal fistful of daggers summoned and then just throw them one by one?
Am i correct that if we move thirty feet,we can throw three daggers at various targets?
Also bind is boring,please do something about it.I mean,it's a time-saver,yes,but it's one point five damage on average-for Feet bind it's practically nothing.
Cannon is OK in concept,but VERY weak.I mean,rifle does all that and also makes you tea or coffee,as you wish.
And probably warms your bed when it's required.

AGrinningCat

2021-03-03, 10:32 AM

New ranged mark is fine,but does it really need to be swift action with no possibility to reduce?I mean,i know that assassins rarely attack in packs,but sometimes they do.Remember Caesar?
Marksman is a frikkin wunderwaffe.I guess if one allows rifles in the first place-why not?
Wolf is fine.I mean,yes,an immortal animal companion,but that's not that impressive after Lunar.
Bow is a bit unclear in "increase number of ice arrows"
Dagger requires clarifying.Namely,am i correct that we can have a literal fistful of daggers summoned and then just throw them one by one?
Am i correct that if we move thirty feet,we can throw three daggers at various targets?
Also bind is boring,please do something about it.I mean,it's a time-saver,yes,but it's one point five damage on average-for Feet bind it's practically nothing.
Cannon is OK in concept,but VERY weak.I mean,rifle does all that and also makes you tea or coffee,as you wish.
And probably warms your bed when it's required.
What do you mean by "no possibility to reduce"?

Bow had wording cleared up, hopefully it makes sense now
As for daggers, you can create them as a free action and throw them via the special ability in the veil. I'll shop around for bind effects.

The difference between Rifle and Cannon is that Rifle will make you tea in the morning, but will spit in your face if you ask for tea in the afternoon -- You only get one shot per bullet; which means you have to be much more careful with your bullets. Meanwhile the cannon is happy enough to deal massive damage as long as you're mixing it up in melee to keep it loaded. If others chime in about the strength, I can modify it, but as is I think it's in a good place.

Draacul

2021-03-03, 10:44 AM

What do you mean by "no possibility to reduce"?
It begins and stays as a swift action.No immediates,no frees. Caesar is not happy.But then,he's dead,so...

As for daggers, you can create them as a free action and throw them via the special ability in the veil.
That i get.What i don't get is that should it work like"i move 30 feet,and every 10 feet i get to throw a dagger"?
And fistful of daggers was a silly idea about interaction with Combat Patrol or other abilities that allow you to move on somebody else's turn.
Also,i request modification of some veils to create synergy here.For example,allow a Dancing Glaive user to move ten feet with bind or increased essence investment.

You only get one shot per bullet
You also get seven bullets to encounter,and encounter is usually FAR shorter.

the cannon is happy enough to deal massive damage
Where?!You get to deal 2d6 damage at level 4,rifle deals +2d6 just from a bind!
Also note that cannon,unlike rifle,has absolutely zero armor piercing OR AoE capability,so you actually need to hit target's full AC.
Yeah,good luck with that.

AGrinningCat

2021-03-03, 11:12 AM

It begins and stays as a swift action.No immediates,no frees.
This should be fine as is. If need be, I can change it so that you can allocate your essence as well but I think the swift + investment is more than worth it for the effects.

That i get.What i don't get is that should it work like"i move 30 feet,and every 10 feet i get to throw a dagger"?
Correct. If you move 120 feet, you can throw 12 daggers, one for every 10ft your move. That being said, you can't dump all the dagger shots into one person, so moving so fast may not be as useful as just dumping all the daggers into someone with a full-round attack.

Where?!You get to deal 2d6 damage at level 4,rifle deals +2d6 just from a bind!
I got base damage on the cannon now, so the damage is slightly better, and you no longer provoke for firing it in melee. You don't get AoE, but you do get multiple shots with the hand bind. I'll have to see some numbers before changing it further. Also consider its a melee weapon as well as a ranged weapon; so you still threaten.

I'll be getting some sleep now, and I'll address comments when I wake up. Thanks for all the feedback!

Draacul

2021-03-04, 05:36 AM

So,suggestions.
First is some kind of range increase on 1st level Mark ability.Something scaleable,preferably to Unlimited.Because ranged combat at close range is no ranged combat.Need i remind
Second is addition of ability to summon knives as a free action not on your turn for Dagger Dance.
Third is armor-piercing capability for the cannon.As is-it's inferior Marksman which needs to be reloaded by hitting things in melee,0.5 more damage and no AP.
0.5 damage is a very bad replacement for...what is armor-piercing for a rifle?6?8?Also probably need to inflict full damage to objects by default.
Even Wolf has better armor-piercing!And it's a crossbow.And a wolf,i guess.
Speaking of wolf,extra damage for a bind is boring,and extra damage that requires a lot of conditions to inflict is weak.Please do something about bind.
For a bow-please increase Ice Arrow damage to 1d6.It'll be a huge timesaver in practical conditions.
Bow's bind,as is,is too weak to be useful.Maybe it should stack with itself?
Also bow should be a composite shortbow,not just a shortbow.Mongols,remember?

AGrinningCat

2021-03-04, 09:34 AM

So,suggestions.
First is some kind of range increase on 1st level Mark ability.Something scaleable,preferably to Unlimited.Because ranged combat at close range is no ranged combat.Need i remind
Nothing about the mark relies on range besides your ability to pinpoint and track. You can still mark people from a distance and get damage/effect at a range beyond close.

Second is addition of ability to summon knives as a free action not on your turn for Dagger Dance.
You can summon daggers normally, as its an enhanced veil

Third is armor-piercing capability for the cannon.As is-it's inferior Marksman which needs to be reloaded by hitting things in melee,0.5 more damage and no AP.
0.5 damage is a very bad replacement for...what is armor-piercing for a rifle?6?8?Also probably need to inflict full damage to objects by default.
Even Wolf has better armor-piercing!And it's a crossbow.And a wolf,i guess.
What do you mean by the wolf has better armor piercing?

Speaking of wolf,extra damage for a bind is boring,and extra damage that requires a lot of conditions to inflict is weak.Please do something about bind.
I am ears for fixing the wolfhound's bind, but do note you're getting a full animal companion out of the veil; the veil is already very strong because of this.

For a bow-please increase Ice Arrow damage to 1d6.It'll be a huge timesaver in practical conditions.
Flattened damage to 3 per shot, so you don't have to roll now.

Bow's bind,as is,is too weak to be useful.Maybe it should stack with itself?
Also bow should be a composite shortbow,not just a shortbow.Mongols,remember?
The bow already gives str to damage; its essentially already composite.
As far as the bind, the bind helps with one of the problems with bows; which is overcoming DR, since you're using multiple attacks. I think this is fine as is; what do you feel is the problem wit this?

Draacul

2021-03-04, 11:30 AM

Juiciest part of Mark here is ability to flat ignore miss chances.It works only at close range,regardless of character's level.I think that it should not be so.
I believe Enhanced veils allow one to summon their weapons only on his turn.My point here is i think that Dance,Magic Dance should be useful even if you're moving on somebody else's turn.
If one looks at rules for Armor Penetration from Legendary Games Psibertech(which i kiiinda feel is somewhat related to the present matter),one can see that Heavy Crossbow has an AP value of 2,which means that it bypasses first 2 points of non-touch armor.So while wolf doesn't have AP,crossbow does.But cannon doesn't!
Bind for wolf doesn't have to be strong,it has to be fun.Puny conditional source of damage is neither.And i'm not a designer,i can only tell that something feels wrong.Wolf's bind does.
Shortbow has to be composite because non-composite shortbow doesn't feel right for mongol.It's not about damage,but flavor.
I think the problem with bind is that it doesn't negate nearly enough to matter.Which is why i propose for it to be stackable.Intent i think is right.

Kris Moonhand

2021-03-04, 07:56 PM

Armor Penetration is an optional ruleset made for future/space games, so I'm really not sure why it's being brought up here.

Draacul

2021-03-04, 08:22 PM

Helmsman is literally from that very same ruleset.

StSword

2021-03-04, 09:42 PM

Black Iron Cannon treats the cannonfire as a magical power, really. Only attacking in melee is treated as an actual weapon attack- As written the cannonfire doesn't benefit from any enhancement bonus or weapon special abilities. Melee weapons don't add either to ammunition, after all.

So by using the follow up rules from Legendary Games' Arcforge Campaign Setting Spheres Left Behind, the cannonfire would either continue to attack touch AC, or have a AP rating equal to the veilweaver level, the same as an Alchemist's bombs (class level) or a Magus' Shocking Grasp (caster level), depending on DM's choice.

Draacul

2021-03-05, 02:51 AM

These cannonballs target touch AC, similarly to a firearm
NOW we're talking.
Also,who removed Daevic from list of classes Marksman is available to?
Please put it back.Again,Daevic in this particular case means Aegis,and Aegis in Arcforge is designated user of high-tech weapons.Well,him and Soulknife apparently.And you don't get much more high-tech with this veil set than Marksman.

AGrinningCat

2021-03-05, 05:24 AM

I won't be balancing around alternate rulesets; there's a lot of complications in doing so.
Dance of Daggers works off turn, provided you can get the movement; although I did patch the movement so you can't be on a mount and get free attacks that way. There were some nerfs to it's early game potential. Again, you can still get daggers normally if you want to shank someone or something.
Shortbow is composite in all but name. I don't want to add in extra rules to composite just to have the name change. That being said, Shortbow has a boosted shredding effect against cold damage, and now works on hit rather than damage.

Wolfhound crossbow also got a few things. I worry it may be too much, but we'll see. The idea is that the wolfhound ties up your target with trips and grapples while you get them from afar, but if its too much I'll end up changing it.

Finally, Black Iron Cannon also got some wording tweaks and a bit of a bonus on the bind if you want to just cause explosions. The intent of the weapon should be clearer now.

Draacul

2021-03-05, 05:39 AM

I worry it may be too much, but we'll see.
Remove the damage bonus from the bind,duh.It's boring and relatively hard to track.Maybe replace a mark trigger effect with a free attack for the wolf?
Speaking of,maybe instead of that long text about loading more bolts bind just transforms the bolter into heavy repeating crossbow?It's not like we aren't proficient with it.
At this point i almost like the Wolf.I mean,lots of interesting effects,synergy with itself,and having a dog is always nice.
I do have a very suspicious Duck Hunt vibe from it though...

I won't be balancing around alternate rulesets; there's a lot of complications in doing so.
I got that from the first page,yes.But it's not about balance,you see?Your veils are available with Shape Veil to any class including commoner,anyways.Availability to Daevic just makes them sliiiightly more available if somebody wants to
play with them without using the class itself.

Dance of Daggers works off turn, provided you can get the movement

Veils with the [Enhanced (weapon)] descriptor that create a weapon normally create the weapon in a free hand of the wielder’s choice as a free action on their turn
It works really bad though,because you can't create new daggers off turn.Normally.Which is why i am asking for a line like"you can create new daggers as a free action,even on somebody else's turn".

That being said, Shortbow has a boosted shredding effect against cold damage, and now works on hit rather than damage.
I've searched six bestiaries...MANUALLY...and i can say that while this still does nothing to targets with cold resist 20 and up,absolute most cold-resistant targets have resist 10.Which basically means 0 at relevant levels,allowing one to actually do something about these pesky outsiders.

AGrinningCat

2021-03-05, 08:01 AM

Update time: As promised, veils have been proliferated to other lists, and the ranged weapons, options, and ACFs have been moved into the main document. The focus now will be on polish, as well as picking out a list of veils from other veilweavers to include on this list.

Small changes from the document include a Sniper's style (Silver bullet), Dropping the curse effect from wolfhound's, and general wording changes!

As always, feel free to let me know about your feedback -- If there's a veil that you think should (or shouldn't) be on another's list, let me know!

AGrinningCat

2021-03-05, 08:05 AM

It works really bad though,because you can't create new daggers off turn.Normally.Which is why i am asking for a line like"you can create new daggers as a free action,even on somebody else's turn". I now understand what you were trying to get at -- The veil should have this wording.

I've searched six bestiaries...MANUALLY...and i can say that while this still does nothing to targets with cold resist 20 and up,absolute most cold-resistant targets have resist 10.Which basically means 0 at relevant levels,allowing one to actually do something about these pesky outsiders. Bow cold resistance shredding is increased

Draacul

2021-03-05, 10:08 AM

Bow cold resistance shredding is increased
Well,i guess it's not Intellect Devourer's good day.Also fun fact:apparently in first Bestiary there are no Cold 30-resistant creatures.And in 2nd there are precisely two.
So,suggestions!
I still request for a Dancing Glaive to have a some way to increase movement after hitting target,to create a synergy with Dancing Daggers.
Hardlight Axe's bind feels very weak and unreliable.Not sure what can be done here.
Shell-Striker Gauntlets are grrreat,but while they list a to hit bonus,they do not list the amount of said bonus.
Unyielding's Shoulders bind attack and damage bonus should probably work on the attack made until the end of next turn instead of within one round,unless you're intended to just make it work on AoO.Also,does it stack with itself?
I still don't understand whether or not Tattered Cloths's miss chance improvement from enemy missing is intended to stack with itself.
Armor of Silk and Steel is...actually reasonably good now!I approve.
Eye of Revealing does not sound like a reasonably good usage of an immediate action and generally feels like a bad exchange.Yes,i know,untyped damage,Power Attack for everybody!
Still doesn't feel good for me.
Sash of Four Seasons is extremely weak on all fronts.It's weak resistance,weak damage and no rider effects.
Deathgrip Gauntlets is...oh well.Apparently there is a synergy here.I do have to ask-am i correct in that hardness will,in fact,reduce damage taken when character undertakes a strenuous action?
Oh,and unrelated thing:when you post new Rajah content,can you maybe use places other then Discord?Some of us Rajah fanboys/girls are living under metaphorical rock and these new-age things are kinda hard to follow.
And yes,i'm unironically enjoying the class.Though i dislike Batal,so what do i know?

AGrinningCat

2021-03-06, 08:27 AM

words
I accidently hit back while replying, which deleted my post. The cliffnotes are:

Dancing glaive probably won't recieve anything, dance of daggers can get very strong with synergy so I'm cautious about synergy
Hardlight axe bind gets better with essence investment and more attacks, even if it doesn't say so in the description, which means it grows into its power very strongly.
Shellstrikers add half their heat as an insight bonus to hit when discharging heat.
Unyielding is an untyped bonus so it does stack; but you're still limited on actions.
Tattered cloths does stack; I've reworded it to be a bit clearer
Eye of revealing is a bit strong due to the fact that it affects your entire team; I'm not too keen on boosting the power ay further.
Gave sash a small boost to essence; meaning that it should soak more and have better turnabout on the stored damage.
Deathgrip gauntlets do not prevent loss of life, just incoming damage. Dying and strenuous activities is considered loss of life.

As for Rajah stuff, if I get more stuff published, I'll open a playtest for it. The only extra stuff outside of Rajah book proper is the April fools stuff, which I believe is up on library of metzofitz

Draacul

2021-03-06, 01:54 PM

I accidently hit back while replying, which deleted my post. The cliffnotes are:

Dancing glaive probably won't recieve anything, dance of daggers can get very strong with synergy so I'm cautious about synergy
Hardlight axe bind gets better with essence investment and more attacks, even if it doesn't say so in the description, which means it grows into its power very strongly.
Shellstrikers add half their heat as an insight bonus to hit when discharging heat.
Unyielding is an untyped bonus so it does stack; but you're still limited on actions.
Tattered cloths does stack; I've reworded it to be a bit clearer
Eye of revealing is a bit strong due to the fact that it affects your entire team; I'm not too keen on boosting the power ay further.
Gave sash a small boost to essence; meaning that it should soak more and have better turnabout on the stored damage.
Deathgrip gauntlets do not prevent loss of life, just incoming damage. Dying and strenuous activities is considered loss of life.

As for Rajah stuff, if I get more stuff published, I'll open a playtest for it. The only extra stuff outside of Rajah book proper is the April fools stuff, which I believe is up on library of metzofitz

I'm sad about dancing glaive.
I still don't like hardlight.In practical conditions that's 17-20,and if you confirm you get to throw another axe,so it's 17-20*3,but worse. That's not something to write home about.Also boring.
How much of your party, realistically, will attempt to beat a target with a stick?Effect isn't even good, it's not like that Akashic Crazy Maneuver that allowed each party member free combat maneuvers at your bonus.
Sash is now barely passable in that it's resist probably 10.Still not something especially good.
I disagree on deathgrip.

If the character fails this check, he loses 1 hit point
That's dying.

performing any standard action (or any other action the GM deems strenuous, including some free actions such as casting a Quicken Spell spell) deals 1 point of damage
That's disabled.
I claim that different wording here isn't because people who wrote it weren't talking to each other or thinking straight, but in fact because they wanted to send us a sacred message that Deathgrip Set, which won't be developed for decades from their perspective,shouldn't suck.