What damaging cantrip would you take on a Warlock if Eldritch Blast were unavailable?

[Luccan]

Lets say you play at a table full of reasonable and amiable people who run things the way you like that, for whatever reason, have decided to ban Eldritch Blast. What would you take as your main damaging Warlock cantrip? This is a theoretical, so I would request "I would not play at such a table" only be posted 5 or 6 times and to wait until at least the second page to derail the entire thread based on said comments :smalltongue:

Warlocks don't have what I would consider the next most popular arcanist cantrip, Fire Bolt, leaving an interesting set of choices: the Bladetrips, Chill Touch, Frostbite, Infestation, Lightning Lure, Magic Stone, Mind Sliver, Poison Spray, Sword Burst, Thunderclap, and Toll the Dead.

To me, the obvious choices for a nebulous Warlock are Toll the Dead, Mind Sliver, and Chill Touch. The first for pure damage output, the second for the rider effect on saves, and the last for coming 2nd in damage (Behind Poison Spray and Toll the Dead, tied with Bladetrips) and having two interesting riders, one general and one specific. A Bladelock would naturally favor Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade.

Which would you pick?

[Joe the Rat]

Toll the dead would be my first pick, followed by something with an attack roll. I hesitate on chill touch, as I don't like putting all my damage types in one basket. Xblades are best saved for a melee-friendly build. A Hexblade (with or without bladepact) or any tomelock with a shillelagh can do you good. I haven't seen mind sliver in heavy use yet, but it's definitely a team player.

One question for the table - can the xblast invocations be assigned to a different cantrip? Repelling, grasp, and lethargy are fun riders, and I'd hate to see them entirely lost because of beam spam issues. Of course, you might raise flags on a repelling booming blade, so tread carefully.

[Luccan]

Toll the dead would be my first pick, followed by something with an attack roll. I hesitate on chill touch, as I don't like putting all my damage types in one basket. Xblades are best saved for a melee-friendly build. A Hexblade (with or without bladepact) or any tomelock with a shillelagh can do you good. I haven't seen mind sliver in heavy use yet, but it's definitely a team player.

One question for the table - can the xblast invocations be assigned to a different cantrip? Repelling, grasp, and lethargy are fun riders, and I'd hate to see them entirely lost because of beam spam issues. Of course, you might raise flags on a repelling booming blade, so tread carefully.

I personally tend to pick up one damaging cantrip at low levels, so if I went with Chill Touch I'm unlikely to have Toll the Dead before I can start to make up for damage with leveled spells and invocations.

I've personally debated giving other cantrips access to the EB improvements. I would think no on the Blade cantrips, because a bladelock is already looking much more impressive when not competing with the 120 foot 1d10+Cha push/pull multiattack of a dedicated EB Warlock, but I think the case could be made it's already a lot to stack it on cantrips with decent riders, so maybe it wouldn't be that big a deal.

[Galithar]

I would not play at such a table!

Wait... I wasn't supposed to say that.

I would not play a WARLOCK at such a table!!
Hurrah for loopholes!!

But on a more serious note I personally love Ray of Frost. Now that means a tomelock, but if I was set on a nonblade Warlock I would almost certainly go Tome to overcome this. I would also pick up Vicious Mockery or Mind Sliver.

If you can get things like Repelling Blast to apply to other Cantrips the rider effect is almost more important than the original cantrip. A repelling ray of frost would be pretty Coolio.

Also, I would ask if the problem is from a perceived balance issue. If it's because of people stacking quickened agonizing blasts on a hexblade cursed and hexxed target and dealing more damage then the DM knows how to deal with (or making other less optimized players feel bad). I would ask if I could keep EB if I didn't combine it with Hex or Hexblades Curse.

For a Bladelock GFB and BB are obviously what you want. Preferably both for different situations if you don't have other cantrips you need.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Probably BB/GFB on a Hexblade, or not a warlock. Seriously, a warlock doesn't have enough spells/abilities to not spam cantrips, and most of what they do get isn't something they'll use every encounter. EB makes the class work, without EB the class just isn't worth playing.

[Composer99]

Either toll the dead or mind sliver for a caster 'lock, methinks.

For a melee 'lock? Not sure. If I had a few levels of paladin, and hence some healing, heavy armour, and more hit points, I might consider lightning lure for the "tanking" aspect. Combine it with Sentinel feat so I pull 'em in and stick with 'em.

[Greywander]

This is especially tricky because EB pulls so much weight for warlocks. Other casters have enough spell slots that cantrips are only ever a backup option, but warlocks don't have enough spell slots for that, so cantrip spam is their default mode. As others have said, the only sensible options seem to be to either not play at that table, or to play something besides a warlock. Now, if the EB invocations were applied to different cantrips, then that could be a different story, but the OP doesn't mention anything to that effect.

If I were playing, say, a wizard, generally something like Chill Touch would be my go-to damage cantrip. I like my utility cantrips, so I'd rather not take more than one or two damage cantrips. Chill Touch has okay-ish damage, and a situational but important rider; it not only works against regenerating enemies, but against any kind of healing. Something like Toll the Dead would deal more damage, but even so the damage would fall short of what other classes would deal; as such, I don't think pure damage cantrips are worth it, so I'm mostly interested in the rider effects. Mind Sliver is new, and seems to be fairly potent, so that could displace Chill Touch as my default choice, or be my second choice if I pick up two damage cantrips. Create Bonfire is also worth mentioning, as it's an AoE that technically by RAW can hit a 2x3 area (though 2x2 is a lot more reasonable), but it's fire damage and uses concentration, which both limit it's utility in battle. Create Bonfire is a nice backup concentration option for warlocks, though, especially with Repelling Blast.

If I were forced to play a warlock without EB, then I would probably either go with a Celestial warlock relying on Sacred Flame (optimizing for non-combat and grabbing some of the more interesting and less used invocations), or a melee warlock. I might also look into a build that relies on using Create Bonfire as an AoE, and the damage can even rival that of EB if you can hit enough targets, but the concentration requirement, fire damage, and the need for targets to be next to each other would make it much less optimal than EB in my opinion.

[Gale]

Hmm, this is awkward. Eldritch Blast is definitely intended to be Warlock's main means of dealing damage, hence why they don't get access to other cantrips like Firebolt and Ray of Frost. Not being able to make use of ED invocations hurts too. It almost feels like telling a Paladin they can't use melee attacks.

Booming Blade and Green-Flame Blade are good options if you're a Hexblade, obviously. Otherwise the class starts to feel more like a weaker Sorcerer. It definitely feels like the utility and power of Eldritch Blast was one of the main things keeping them on par with other spellcasters. For me, the most obvious answer is to just play a Sorlock and use the Sorcerer cantrips instead.

Otherwise, Tiefling of Levistus get Ray of Frost as a Charisma cantrip, which can help. Realistically though, I would probably just take Toll the Dead and maybe Mind Sliver if I couldn't multiclass.

[Captain Panda]

Toll the Dead. Though if you can't use Eldritch Blast, warlock is just not going to be a great class to pick. If for some reason your DM has banned the spell, I'd appeal that, and if you can't and the DM is otherwise super awesome... switch class.

[Unoriginal]

Celestial Warlock with a fire-or-radiant-damages-dealing cantrip works just dandy.

[Kane0]

Probably Chill Touch or Mind Sliver

[MrStabby]

But on a more serious note I personally love Ray of Frost. Now that means a tomelock, but if I was set on a nonblade Warlock I would almost certainly go Tome to overcome this. I would also pick up Vicious Mockery or Mind Sliver.

If you can get things like Repelling Blast to apply to other Cantrips the rider effect is almost more important than the original cantrip. A repelling ray of frost would be pretty Coolio.

Also, I would ask if the problem is from a perceived balance issue. If it's because of people stacking quickened agonizing blasts on a hexblade cursed and hexxed target and dealing more damage then the DM knows how to deal with (or making other less optimized players feel bad). I would ask if I could keep EB if I didn't combine it with Hex or Hexblades Curse.

For a Bladelock GFB and BB are obviously what you want. Preferably both for different situations if you don't have other cantrips you need.

I think that this pretty much matches my views.

Slowing enemies can be really, really powerful. I find it depends on the DM a bit and the game style - if playing on a grid and you can guage movement and positioning to leave the party just outside of range of melee enemies after their move than you are doing really well. So if you can beg similar upgrades to eldritch blast then you can be pretty effectively shutting down a melee enemy.

[diplomancer]

Probably either the Bladelock with Chill Touch as a ranged option, or Ludic Savant's "the Celestial Generalist" build with Sacred Flame as a (worse than the build but stiill viable) ranged option.
Might consider getting Mind Sliver, but probably only at level 4 or 10.

[OldTrees1]

If I had no time to discuss:
I would use Green Flame Blade and switch to Hexblade (might not be Blade pact) if the characterization of my PC allowed that.

If I had time to discuss:
Warlock is centered on their cantrip and augmenting their cantrip. With EB I would immediately take Repelling Blast and eventually take Agonizing Blast. Would there be new options base on which cantrip I choose? Or would those old options be allowed on the new cantrip (and scale appropriately with tier)? In that case it depends a lot on the characterization.

[Spore]

Fire Bolt for a simple ranged option, Create Bonfire if you can lock down enemies in the area.
Magic Stone if you get iterative attacks; built-in Cha to damage is just too juicy, plus I am a sucker for normalized damage, I prefer 1d6+3 over 1d12 any day!
Frost Bite seems nice on paper, and damage plus disadvantage for a turn looks cool, but I feel Con saves are to frequently passed unless you have a lore bard or a cleric that likes bane.

[Ertwin]

I went firebolt and shocking grasp for my celestial tomelock. I used sacred flame until I hit level 3.

[heavyfuel]

A Hexadin at game I DMed didn't even pick EB. He picked Boombing Blade and Prestidigitation.

If I were looking for a ranged option, probably Toll the Dead

[MrStabby]

If I had no time to discuss:
I would use Green Flame Blade and switch to Hexblade (might not be Blade pact) if the characterization of my PC allowed that.

If I had time to discuss:
Warlock is centered on their cantrip and augmenting their cantrip. With EB I would immediately take Repelling Blast and eventually take Agonizing Blast. Would there be new options base on which cantrip I choose? Or would those old options be allowed on the new cantrip (and scale appropriately with tier)? In that case it depends a lot on the characterization.

This is something I would love to see for the warlock more generally. Their class power is based on a powerful cantrip but if there were different invocations for different cantrips to bring them up to par then it would really help diversify warlocks as well as being really fun.

[BoutsofInsanity]

So I would play a Tiefling Warlock.

I would rock Firebolt and Green Flame blade and take Elemental Adept (Fire) and Flames of Phelgos feats. I would go all in on a fire Warlock Tiefling.

I've had this build in mind for a long time, but I can't justify it because EB is so good. If I could get EB as D8's in fire format I would.

[Keravath]

The save cantrips have the advantage that they work the same even with an opponent adjacent. Using saves instead of to hit rolls can be an advantage though it also depends on the save targeted.

Mind sliver damage is lower but the rider effect can synergize well if there are multiple casters. It doesn't work that well for a warlock because they only have 2 spell slots up to level 11.

Chill touch has some useful rider effects - prevents regeneration even if it does no damage, disadvantage to hit you if the target is undead - and a decent range (120') which make it a good secondary pick.

I usually pick up chill touch for the edge cases of dealing with trolls/vampires and other regenerating creatures.

For a tome lock or melee oriented warlock, the blade cantrips are an obvious choice.

--

However, the warlock is effectively designed around Eldritch Blast. They don't have enough spell slots for an adventuring day. They only have 2 slots available so in every combat that lasts more than 2 rounds they will be forced to use cantrips and if there are multiple encounters without a short rest they will be relying on cantrips. Eldritch Blast gives them something to do that provides medium damage - not as much as martials with feats - but about average for a martial with a Glaive (without polearm master).

The next highest damage cantrip is firebolt which a warlock can't use.

If you want to play a warlock with these folks, I'd suggest asking about leaving Eldritch Blast in the game but removing the Agonizing Blast invocation since this is what actually makes the cantrip particularly useful. You can leave the synergy with hex since it works the same as hunter's mark for a ranger or vengeance paladin or a blade pact warlock with thirsting blade. It also consumes a spell slot for hex and the warlock doesn't have many spell slots. However, being able to add the stat to every bolt almost doubles the total damage possible from Eldritch Blast e.g. d10+5 vs d10 on each - which is what makes it a much better choice than firebolt most of the time.

[adb82]

EB it's too important for a ranged warlock, they have too few slots except your DM let you have a short rest after every fight (which i wouldnt as DM), other cantrips just wont work same.

Im not saying "i would not play at that table", but for sure, if i want play a warlock, i would go for some different build.

Hexblade with bladetrips its ok, also tomelock or any bladelock work decent.

Celestial warlock for heal power with sacred fire as well.

For the tomelock or bladelock i would add shocking grasp also (but it need magic initiate for this if its not tomelock, which is anyway good so they can pick also the spell shield that add very nice AC, indeed probably its better for bladelock as they more go melee and even they need a feat for it, picking shield even just 1 time a day plus 2 cantrip he gonna need, as it dont have EB anymore, seem ok, esecially for a Vhuman), for go out from bad situations with multiattack against you, or for make the rogue enter in the backline without get an OA, plus if its an armored guy you are hitting you have advantage. Mind sliver is good, but the damage is lower and it have a save, if i would have space i would pick both anyway, especially if you have a wizard in the party mind sliver can help a lot.

[Reynaert]

I still haven't seen the answer to 'what do all the EB invocations do now?' from the OP.

But in my opinion, there should be a general houserule that extends all the EB invocations to all cantrips that have an attack roll. (Actually I think it should have been like that from the start but that's obviously not an option). I really don't see the downside to that. (It'd still be worse on higher levels because EB has separate attacks that each get the bonus while the others just increase the damage of the one attack)

[Luccan]

I still haven't seen the answer to 'what do all the EB invocations do now?' from the OP.

But in my opinion, there should be a general houserule that extends all the EB invocations to all cantrips that have an attack roll. (Actually I think it should have been like that from the start but that's obviously not an option). I really don't see the downside to that. (It'd still be worse on higher levels because EB has separate attacks that each get the bonus while the others just increase the damage of the one attack)

That seems reasonable.