Expanding Polymorph to beyond Beasts

[jaappleton]

This is dangerous waters, I know.

Seriously. I know. Stop typing about why its such a bad idea.

But if I were to explore allowing it...

Mathematically, I think its overall safe to say that Beasts are on the bottom tier of creature types in terms of power. There's a reason for that; they are natural creatures. No magic, no otherworldly powers, they don't breathe fire or anything. Basic animals. Some.... absolutely huge and terrifying, but animals nonetheless.

What would you rate, overall, as one step above Beasts on the creature type scale? Fey, Aberrations, Fiends, Dragons, Monstrosities, etc?

[Zhorn]

This is dangerous waters, I know.

Seriously. I know. Stop typing about why its such a bad idea.

Not so much that's it' a bad idea, but "Expanding Polymorph to beyond Beasts"... it's that just True Polymorph?

[jaappleton]

Not so much that's it' a bad idea, but "Expanding Polymorph to beyond Beasts"... it's that just True Polymorph?

I was going to consider only allowing expansion to "Beasts and Fey", or "Beasts and Monstrosities", etc

Based on what the general consensus of 'what's the one step above Beasts?' in terms of power.

[Zhorn]

I think all the other types just generally have outliers and weird power spikes that are not reflected in CR when it comes to special abilities.
Outside of poisons, beasts are fairly linear with their growth in power/value to CR, but once you go to any other types then CR becomes a poor measuring tool for Polymorph to base its transformations on.
Think pixies, shadows, intellect devourers. their low CRs have almost zero to do with how deadly they can be.

[Falconcry]

Some Monstrosities should count particularly the ones that are hybrids of beasts like the Owlbear, Gryphon or Winter Wolf. Purple Worm is a bit more of a stretch due to power creep.

Anything listed as a Titan like the Kraken should be right out.

[jaappleton]

How about this as an addendum:

Polymorph is expanded to include (insert one creature type here), but the you must deduct your Proficiency Bonus from its CR.

Example: Beasts and Monstrosities
If I’m level 7, with a PB of +3, the highest CR Beast I can Polymorph into is 7. The highest CR Monstrosity I can Polymorph into is 4.

That any good?

[BloodSnake'sCha]

How about this as an addendum:

Polymorph is expanded to include (insert one creature type here), but the you must deduct your Proficiency Bonus from its CR.

Example: Beasts and Monstrosities
If I’m level 7, with a PB of +3, the highest CR Beast I can Polymorph into is 7. The highest CR Monstrosity I can Polymorph into is 4.

That any good?

I think a better approach is to make a list of possible non beasts you can polymorph to instead of allowing all based on CR.

[J-H]

I think a better approach is to make a list of possible non beasts you can polymorph to instead of allowing all based on CR.

Agreed. Or possibly limit it to ones without clearly magical attack modes. I think that allows you to do, say, manticores and winter wolves and otyughs, but not chimera or phase spiders or umber hulks.
The bulette is non-magical (no breath, petrify, stun, etc.) but still potentially very powerful due to the movement mode.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Agreed. Or possibly limit it to ones without clearly magical attack modes. I think that allows you to do, say, manticores and winter wolves and otyughs, but not chimera or phase spiders or umber hulks.
The bulette is non-magical (no breath, petrify, stun, etc.) but still potentially very powerful due to the movement mode.

Winter wolves have a nice fun breath weapon, as my party found out.

[Unoriginal]

Mathematically, I think its overall safe to say that Beasts are on the bottom tier of creature types in terms of power. There's a reason for that; they are natural creatures. No magic, no otherworldly powers, they don't breathe fire or anything. Basic animals. Some.... absolutely huge and terrifying, but animals nonetheless.

It is not "overall safe" to say that, especially not mathematically. Power is power is power. It does not matter if the power comes in the form of being huge and terrifying, or in the form of being able to shoot lasers with your eyes and being immune to sleep effects.

Beasts are not the bottom tier of creature types in term of power. Mathematically, they can be frankly powerful relatively to other monsters on the same weight class.

What the Beasts are is "simple". Beasts have abilities generally limited to:

- Enhanced senses

- Stealth options

- Mobility (flight, swim, or just being fast)

- Charging, pushing or grappling moves

- A ton of HP (with generally low AC)

- Not amazing mental stats

- Attacks in decent number with decent-to-high damage (and sometime a rider effect like poison or the charging/pushing/grappling mentioned above).

That doesn't make them weaker than a different type, but it does make them easier to handle than, say, creatures with Spellcasting or ethereal screams that can deafen and freeze you.

If you're open and eager to having that kind of complexities added to the player side of things, then removing the Beast limit to Polymorph won't be a problem. It won't give the PCs access to stronger creatures, just more complex ones (which does augment the PCs' power because versatility is power too but the Polymorphed forms themselves won't be stronger).



What would you rate, overall, as one step above Beasts on the creature type scale? Fey, Aberrations, Fiends, Dragons, Monstrosities, etc?

The tier of complexity above Beast is either Giant or Humanoid (an argument could be made for either), then Dragon in third position, and then Monstrosity.

[PhoenixPhyre]

As a note, polymorph spells were notorious for being among the most broken spells of 3e alongside summoning spells.

Why? They both gain power whenever a new book is published via splat diving. And do so faster than linearly, because you now have access to combinations of effects you didn't before, and there are synergies.

Note that even in 5e, summoning a herd of velociraptors is more powerful than any of the MM beasts you can do. So the risk is still there, just muted due to the heavy restrictions. And very few new beasts (and none high CR) have been published.

So I'd be super wary of extending the limit on anything other than a white list format (add X, Y, and Z to the list of things you can polymorph into).

[MrStabby]

Well I think it might slow things down a lot for a few reasons. From my experience with things like summons...

1) bigger pool to pick from
2) pool will have more different things it can do so the number of things that could be optimal is bigger, rather than "what has the best multi attack option.
3) deciding what do do with your summons/polymorph once you have them is slower
4) players quickly learn the things they use and a slow spell gets quicker. More options means any individual option gets familiar more slowly.

This is even ignoring balance issues. Polymorph is a powerful spell already and giving it more utility is dangerous.

But in terms of things to add

1) oozes. I dont think many of these are broken
2) monstrosities. Still mostly a bag of HP and attacks so functionally... ok.
3) giants. Similar.

I wouldnt advise these... but anything more than this and i would advise against even more strongly.

I would also suggest making them different spells, so if you wanted the choice of polymorphing into a beast, an ooze, a monstrosity or a giant you would need four different spells known/prepared.

[SharkForce]

I propose something a little bit less straightforward than simply expanding what is already one of the most powerful and versatile spells at no cost (and I'll just briefly note that allowing other types will generally speaking expand the range of levels at which polymorph is extremely powerful to even later levels, making it dominant for longer...

rather than extending it to all beasts + all fey or all monstrosities or whatever, allow a spellcaster to research additional options, which may require a special component, a higher level spell slot, or both. so for example you can become a sprite, with all the powers of a sprite, but it requires an appropriate spell component - probably one that is relatively affordable and accessible, since sprites are not that powerful. if you want to become a purple worm, well, they're more powerful than your typical beasts available through polymorph, maybe you need a level 5 or 6 spell slot as well as an expensive statue as a non-consumed material component (alternately, I personally dislike allowing CR = level in general, and have it as allowed CR = spell slot level, which I feel keeps the spell more in line in the first place; it still has great utility and solid debuff potential, but doesn't let you replace a 5 HP tapped-out spellcaster with someone who is arguably better than the party's fighter at combat... but YMMV).

in each case, I'd have the new form have a scribing cost similar to scribing a new spell (for other classes, still have it as a research cost, even if they don't have a spellbook)... possibly waived for the transmuter, because the poor guy could use a little help (alternately, if they already know the polymorph spell when they get their ability to learn it for free - which they really should have done because delaying it is foolish - give them a free form. on the other hand, it does give their reduced cost for transmutation spell scribing much more useful)

this allows you to avoid a lot of the potential pitfalls, while still allowing polymorph to have a bit more variation for polymorph. it also means that they can face opponents that have an expanded version of polymorph and get the trick from that person, allowing new types of treasure as well.

[Waazraath]

I've seen giants mentioned a few times, but do we rembember splat books? Volo has a bunch of funky (more headed regenerating, spellcasting, or bat**** insane getting random abilities) giants iirc, and I think Theros and Ravnica have giants as well (don't know if they are problematic though).

And I think this is a potential problem: it's not that hard to imagine a monstrosity or a dragon with much more complex abilites than the MM offers. So if you expand the spell, you have to take into account that with the next release of an official monster book, it gets less balanced. One of the reasons I think the designers were pretty wise in limiting the spell to beasts, cause as soon as they give a creature (even if obviously derived from an animal) some special ability, like death dogs or winter wolves, it's not a beast anymore but a monstrosity.

[Ashe]

but the you must deduct your Proficiency Bonus from its CR.

That would make it get worse as you level when using the same form (which you might want to do for special abilities/hindrances only possessed by one creature) on someone who isn't levelling with you.

[MrStabby]

I've seen giants mentioned a few times, but do we rembember splat books? Volo has a bunch of funky (more headed regenerating, spellcasting, or bat**** insane getting random abilities) giants iirc, and I think Theros and Ravnica have giants as well (don't know if they are problematic though).

And I think this is a potential problem: it's not that hard to imagine a monstrosity or a dragon with much more complex abilites than the MM offers. So if you expand the spell, you have to take into account that with the next release of an official monster book, it gets less balanced. One of the reasons I think the designers were pretty wise in limiting the spell to beasts, cause as soon as they give a creature (even if obviously derived from an animal) some special ability, like death dogs or winter wolves, it's not a beast anymore but a monstrosity.

Hmm. I already rule that everything comes from the MM. It isn't like I would allow a druid on Eberron to turn into a Ravnica giant or something like that.

I think in general it is worth limiting spells like conjure animals and polymorph to the core books to stop them getting out of hand.

I don't play AL, but does the PHB+1 book include polymorph? I.e. if you are polymorphing into a creature in Volo's, does Volo's have to be your +1?

[UnintensifiedFa]

I actually don't think this is that crazy for the reason you think it might be...

While beasts as a creature type are somewhat weak, the real limiting factor is that Beasts are very low CR (capping out at 6 iirc).

IMO the concept could be pretty balanced if you limited basic polymorph to CR6 (maybe increasing it slightly with a higher level spell-slot. Provided you made a caveat that you could only use at-will spell casting abilities if you transformed into a creature that could cast spells.

Personally I'd also restrict it to non-humanoids, as then it could essentially be used as a disguise spell which IMO Isn't really the intention of the spell.

[KorvinStarmast]

Winter wolves have a nice fun breath weapon, as my party found out. Kept the beer cold, though. :smallcool:

Seriously. I know. Stop typing about why its such a bad idea. Seriously, respect bounded accuracy, the play test and the known exploits from 3.x.

People are already complaining about polymorph as is. We have threads here that include that. Why are you trying to power it up further?

Monstrosities turn things to stone. Is that what you want to be able to do?
Example: Gorgon. (CR 5)

Petrifying Breath (Recharge 5–6). The gorgon exhales petrifying gas in a 30-*‐foot cone. Each creature in that area must succeed on a DC 13 Constitution saving throw. On a failed save, a target begins to turn to stone and is restrained. The restrained target must repeat the saving throw at the end of its next turn. On a success, the effect ends on the target. On a failure, the target is petrified until freed by the greater restoration spell or other magic.
Example: Basilisk (CR 3)

Petrifying Gaze. If a creature starts its turn within 30 feet of the basilisk and the two of them
can see each other, the basilisk can force the creature to make a DC 12 Constitution saving throw
if the basilisk isn’t incapacitated. On a failed save, the creature magically begins to turn to
stone and is restrained. It must repeat the saving throw at the end of its next turn. On a success,
the effect ends. On a failure, the creature is petrified until freed by the greater restoration
spell or other magic. A creature that isn’t surprised can avert its eyes to avoid the saving throw at the start of its turn. If it does so, it can’t see the basilisk until the start of its next turn, when it can avert
its eyes again. If it looks at the basilisk in the meantime, it must immediately make the save.
If the basilisk sees its reflection within 30 feet of it in bright light, it mistakes itself for a
rival and targets itself with its gaze.

[heavyfuel]

@OP, so, you do know this is a terrible idea, right? :smallwink:

I think subtracting your Prof Bonus from the form's CR can work, even though it's a bit clunky.

At any rate: Giants. They are usually just some HP and damage. Not too different from Beasts.


The tier of complexity above Beast is either Giant or Humanoid (an argument could be made for either), then Dragon in third position, and then Monstrosity.

I agree with Giants, but disagree on Humanoids and Dragons.

Humanoids would allow Spellcasting on a much higher level. Use a 4th level Polymorph to become a Mage and gain access to 5th level spells (on top of a bunch of lower level spells). If spellcasting were "banned" with Polymorph, then maybe Humanoids wouldn't be too strong.

Dragons, though, are pretty strong for their CR. For example, an Elephant and a Red Dragon Wyrmling are both CR 4, but the Dragon has much better AC, Saves, Speed, and they can also fly and have blindsight. Their damage is also pretty on par with the Elephant's.

Monstrosities can do some crazy things, but their DC is usually pretty low. Basilisks can force a DC 12 Con save to avoid petrification, but there are repeated saves and creatures can avert their eyes. It's strong, but I'd take flight, breath weapons, AC, and energy immunity (from dragons) over petrification almost any day

[ATHATH]

If spellcasting were "banned" with Polymorph, then maybe Humanoids wouldn't be too strong.
There are still quite a few strong creatures in the pool of Humanoids, even without spellcasting. Reapers of Bhaal can turn invisible and have an Aura of Murder ability that gives hostile creatures near them VULNERABILITY TO PIERCING DAMAGE (unless they were resistant or immune to it before). Werecreatures just sort of t-pose on many encounters with their immunity to B/P/S damage from nonmagical, nonsilvered weapons, and lava children turn that up to 11 with their immunity to B/P/S damage from metallic weapons (EVEN MAGICAL ONES) and their immunity to fire damage. Knights and hobgoblin captains can hand out knockoff Bless that stacks with normal Bless, and Duergar Mind Masters can effectively give a party member an extra attack every round (great for off-turn Sneak Attack damage for Rogues). All of the above are CR <=4 forms that a Couatl can take with their Change Shape ability (although the werecreature forms are less good for them since they're already immune to B/P/S damage from nonmagical weapons); I haven't even looked into the higher-leveled Humanoid forms yet.

Also, a lot of Humanoid stat blocks assume that the creature in question has equipment that Polymorph might not give them, which can make things a bit of a headache. You'd need to recalculate quite a few creatures' AC scores, for example, and some of them would require obscure weapons to get proper Multiattacks. There's also the hilarity of Giff getting the 1/[something, I forget] ability to throw a fragmentation grenade, which, in my headcanon, they just pull out of their a- er, pull out of thin air.

[ATHATH]

That would make it get worse as you level when using the same form (which you might want to do for special abilities/hindrances only possessed by one creature) on someone who isn't levelling with you.
Maybe you could subtract the target's proficiency bonus instead, like how the spell uses the target's CR as a CR cap for its Beast forms already?

[Emongnome777]

To me, the limitation of Polymorph was less that it specifies beast monster type, but rather it's that beasts don't go past CR 8 (T-Rex) using MM, MToF, and VGtM. If you cap the spell to CR 8 or lower, I wouldn't be totally opposed to any monster type, though the comments about leaving out spellcasters makes sense.

[verbatim]

Monstrosities is probably safe if you ban a couple of things:


Stuff above CR 20
Hythonia (Theros) is a Mythic Monster, equivalent to fighting two CR 17's according to the book but listed as normal CR 17
The Sphinx line has access to at will time travel
Purple Worm's burrowing seems like a hassle to account for but I can see some DM's leaving them one legal
Most of the Sorrowsworn aren't gamebreaking (See Below) but most of them punch above their CR weight because a PC party can generally trigger their gimmicks without repercussion.


The Hungry's Life Hunger ability is poorly worded and seems incredibly abusable by a PC party:

Life Hunger: If a creature the Hungry can see regains hit points, the Hungry gains two benefits until the end of its next turn: it has advantage on attack rolls, and its bite deals an extra 22 (4d10) necrotic damage on a hit.

RAI the 4d10 doesn't stack but I think RAW Mass Healing Word could add up to 48d10 to its damage output for the turn if both attacks hit :eyes: