Shepherd Druid... Strong at level 6

[5eNeedsDarksun]

So the group I'm DMing through DiA has just hit 6th level, and our Shepherd Druid has gone from being an effective character to one that I clearly need to build some encounters around or the party is just going to waltz through a lot of the module as it's written. The combination of the extra hp (on top of the bonus hp) and the ability to do full damage against all the fiends they will be facing makes the summoned critters good at not only taking damage but dishing it out.
I think specifically to DiA a lot of the baddies have CRs that are based in part on resistance to a lot of types of damage, so what balances the situation is most casters are going to have to alter tactics somewhat and/ or be less effective, but with this character it's just not the case. I threw in 2 Chain Devils as an extra encounter last night just to step up the opposition a bit, and they did have the rogue grappled, the paladin surrounded by chains and the fighter feared... but the 8 'super' owls were just too much.
The player took Warcaster at 4th (he's not a dummy) so trying to break concentration will not be easy even if I can get past the horde.

So my question is, for those who have played or DMed this sort of character before, is this a high water mark, or am I going to be dealing with this for the rest of the adventure? And any thoughts on tactics to combat it without swamping the rest of the characters?

[jaappleton]

Let them.

Seriously.

DAI is a terribly written module. I'm sorry, but it is. Filling the entire adventure with enemies resistant or outright immune to Fire, and heavily resistant to Cold and Lightning was just outright bad design. Takes out Dragon Sorcs to start with, along with Light Clerics and essentially Forge as well, and numerous other subclasses.

Few classes and subclasses can generate their own magic weapons. Monks, Devotion Paladins channel divinity can do it only every so often, etc.

My solution? Give the rest of the party members at least Hellfire weapons so they don't feel like they're peeing in the wind by attacking Fiends with mundane weaponry.

If you try to alter the encounters, you're creating an arms race with the party. Nobody wants that. That does not ever end well.

[Unoriginal]

So the group I'm DMing through DiA has just hit 6th level, and our Shepherd Druid has gone from being an effective character to one that I clearly need to build some encounters around or the party is just going to waltz through a lot of the module as it's written. The combination of the extra hp (on top of the bonus hp) and the ability to do full damage against all the fiends they will be facing makes the summoned critters good at not only taking damage but dishing it out.
I think specifically to DiA a lot of the baddies have CRs that are based in part on resistance to a lot of types of damage, so what balances the situation is most casters are going to have to alter tactics somewhat and/ or be less effective, but with this character it's just not the case. I threw in 2 Chain Devils as an extra encounter last night just to step up the opposition a bit, and they did have the rogue grappled, the paladin surrounded by chains and the fighter feared... but the 8 'super' owls were just too much.
The player took Warcaster at 4th (he's not a dummy) so trying to break concentration will not be easy even if I can get past the horde.

So my question is, for those who have played or DMed this sort of character before, is this a high water mark, or am I going to be dealing with this for the rest of the adventure? And any thoughts on tactics to combat it without swamping the rest of the characters?

It's not easy to get long rests on Avernus, and encounters are generally separated enough that summons will only be there for at best a couple.

Let the druid shines when they spend their big slots, it's not going to be often.

Also IIRC the events the PCs meet for the 6th level are a bit... more manageable than at later level.



DAI is a terribly written module. I'm sorry, but it is. Filling the entire adventure with enemies resistant or outright immune to Fire, and heavily resistant to Cold and Lightning was just outright bad design. Takes out Dragon Sorcs to start with, along with Light Clerics and essentially Forge as well, and numerous other subclasses.

Few classes and subclasses can generate their own magic weapons. Monks, Devotion Paladins channel divinity can do it only every so often, etc.

My solution? Give the rest of the party members at least Hellfire weapons so they don't feel like they're peeing in the wind by attacking Fiends with mundane weaponry.

Hard disagree here. It's great to have a module where spell selection matters.

The PCs know they're going to hell and have the possibility to equip in function, even silvered weapons solve 90% of the issues for the martials.



If you try to alter the encounters, you're creating an arms race with the party. Nobody wants that. That does not ever end well.

I agree with this, however.

[stoutstien]

Little early on in decent to say they are really steamrolling yet.
If you really are worried about it adds some weak aoe options for NPCs. Its something that is missing in general in 5e.

After that make sure you are really taken advantage of the environmental and mobilty options in the module.

[MrStabby]

It's not easy to get long rests on Avernus, and encounters are generally separated enough that summons will only be there for at best a couple.

Let the druid shines when they spend their big slots, it's not going to be often.

Also IIRC the events the PCs meet for the 6th level are a bit... more manageable than at later level.



Hard disagree here. It's great to have a module where spell selection matters.

The PCs know they're going to hell and have the possibility to equip in function, even silvered weapons solve 90% of the issues for the martials.



I agree with this, however.

I think the module has some issues. It probably depends how much you get to play though and if you know what's happening.

If at character creation you come up with a concept you like, roll it out and then discover that actually your concept is a big pile of crap in this adventure that will obstruct your fun then yeah... it sucks. No matter that you can adjust somewhat, you are still discovering that your character will not be able to be what you signed up for it to be.

On the other hand if you know from the start before you make any race/class commitments that certain sections of the PHB are worth skipping over then you can pick a concept that will actually be fun.

How much this hurts depends on how much fun your second or third choice character is relative to the first, your scope for skipping this game and picking up another more to your tastes, and how long it will be before another game comes round where you can play what you actually want to.

I think its a cool adventure to have on the shelf on the off chance you get a party of players for whom it is suitable, but a DM should be checking this type of adventure with their players before running...

Anyway, to the main question... I find that things like conjure animals and a lot of other things can be dealt with just by not biasing your enemies towards melee range warriors. Split your warriors between archers and melee and your enemies overall with an even split between spellcasting and martial prowess. Between spells like fireball, fear, counterspell, hypnotic pattern, banishment etc. The problem will be just a bit less intense. These are all spells that are good enough to warrant inclusion in a spell list anyway, so it isnt like you are tailoring anything to counter your party, just rectifying a (possible) existing imbalance.

That said, power progression is somewhat lumpy. At certain levels there are big boosts and it is al levels 5 and 6 for the shepherd druid. Not much fair that the DM can to to perfectly offset that but ride it out - in a couple of levels there will be some opportunities for others to catch up.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Little early on in decent to say they are really steamrolling yet.
If you really are worried about it adds some weak aoe options for NPCs. Its something that is missing in general in 5e.

After that make sure you are really taken advantage of the environmental and mobilty options in the module.

Thanks to all so far.
All of us, including me, are enjoying it so far. I did re-jig the first bit to develop connections to Elturel as opposed to BG at the beginning, which is good advise to all. Chapter 2 is good as is.
Chapter 3 looks like it's more of a skeleton of a really good sandbox, which I like, but I'm definitely going to have to do a lot of work. I'd rather some of the 40ish pages on BG at the end of the mod were used to develop ch 3 as a huge open crawl, but I guess that's what I'm for.
My 3 martials do have magic weapons and are effective. The AT, particularly so, as he seems to to have a 'mage' hand in everything and get surprise regularly.
Not quite steamrolling yet, and I generally have to boost all published content vs. our group, but this one seems to be really due to largely one character. If I weigh what a martial is able to do vs. the druid and his 8 companions it isn't even close. And as the spells last for an hour it's not just 1 or 2 encounters.

[x3n0n]

Thanks to all so far.
All of us, including me, are enjoying it so far. I did re-jig the first bit to develop connections to Elturel as opposed to BG at the beginning, which is good advise to all. Chapter 2 is good as is.
Chapter 3 looks like it's more of a skeleton of a really good sandbox, which I like, but I'm definitely going to have to do a lot of work. I'd rather some of the 40ish pages on BG at the end of the mod were used to develop ch 3 as a huge open crawl, but I guess that's what I'm for.
My 3 martials do have magic weapons and are effective. The AT, particularly so, as he seems to to have a 'mage' hand in everything and get surprise regularly.
Not quite steamrolling yet, and I generally have to boost all published content vs. our group, but this one seems to be really due to largely one character. If I weigh what a martial is able to do vs. the druid and his 8 companions it isn't even close. And as the spells last for an hour it's not just 1 or 2 encounters.

Even without Shepherd, it seems to be a reasonably common opinion that cutting Conjure Animals down to 1/2/3/4 beasts vs 1/2/4/8 leads to more reasonable results.

If the *players* start to be disappointed with how things are going, that's where I'd look first. (As a Druid, I felt that 8 was unreasonably strong, and started looking for ways to self-nerf.) If they are happy, shrug. I guess it's fine. :)

[sophontteks]

If the druid loses concentration, the animals dissappear.

I would be *extremely* hesitant to nerf a shepherd druids sunmoning mid-game. The shepherd druid is a summoning subclass. It's the central feature of their character.

Buut. You, the DM, choose what he summons, and their power and effectiveness varies pretty wildly depending on what you pick.

[Waazraath]

I made a related thread some time ago: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?623831-Summoner-druid-pretty-darn-boring

Was level 8, I was the player. Retired the character after this dungeon for an artificer, and been a lot happier. If I ever gonna run another druid, as a player or DM, I think I'll just skip the 8 creatures conjure (and maybe the 4 as well) and make it DM pick, from a small list and than probably random. It's the combination of it being strong (especially with the subclass features of shepards), and an all-purpose tool (that the druid already has in wildshape), and slowing down combat, and pushing away other spells / action uses because conjure is just always better than all other options.

More concrete: I don't think power slows down after 6th, summoning 8 sprites and pixies is also very powerful, and you'll just get to use it in more combats. In a dungeon it is just too easy to stay out of line of fire, keep concentration up, and you're outside the room while your critters take care of everything.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I made a related thread some time ago: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?623831-Summoner-druid-pretty-darn-boring

Was level 8, I was the player. Retired the character after this dungeon for an artificer, and been a lot happier. If I ever gonna run another druid, as a player or DM, I think I'll just skip the 8 creatures conjure (and maybe the 4 as well) and make it DM pick, from a small list and than probably random. It's the combination of it being strong (especially with the subclass features of shepards), and an all-purpose tool (that the druid already has in wildshape), and slowing down combat, and pushing away other spells / action uses because conjure is just always better than all other options.

More concrete: I don't think power slows down after 6th, summoning 8 sprites and pixies is also very powerful, and you'll just get to use it in more combats. In a dungeon it is just too easy to stay out of line of fire, keep concentration up, and you're outside the room while your critters take care of everything.

Just had a look at the thread. I remember checking it out when it was up. Your description is pretty much identical to my player... didn't really do anything crazy. He's a single classed halfling druid, who like you took Warcaster because it made sense when concentration was going to be more impactful than boosting Wisdom. This really shouldn't make something that is broken, but I'm wondering if it is. I do think DiA baddies might be even more hamstrung in their ability to fight back in the sense that a lot of their CR is based on immunities and resistances that are basically irrelevant in this case. If, for example, instead of some of those immunities some of the opposition had higher ACs or more AOEs then the low level horde might not always be the right button to push. It's early, but I think he's going to keep pushing the same button unless I change something up.

[Valmark]

Imo it's fine as is- just vary it up a bit. Instead of using wolves, constrictors and giant owls (three of the really strong ones that I can think of right now) use boars, spiders, axe beaks and giant bats (I like the last ones because they benefit substantially from the bonus hp having four hit dice- it feels good).

Don't worry about giving animals that deal poison damage- they aren't so bad that poison immunity most devils have makes them feel bad.

I made a related thread some time ago: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?623831-Summoner-druid-pretty-darn-boring

Was level 8, I was the player. Retired the character after this dungeon for an artificer, and been a lot happier. If I ever gonna run another druid, as a player or DM, I think I'll just skip the 8 creatures conjure (and maybe the 4 as well) and make it DM pick, from a small list and than probably random. It's the combination of it being strong (especially with the subclass features of shepards), and an all-purpose tool (that the druid already has in wildshape), and slowing down combat, and pushing away other spells / action uses because conjure is just always better than all other options.

More concrete: I don't think power slows down after 6th, summoning 8 sprites and pixies is also very powerful, and you'll just get to use it in more combats. In a dungeon it is just too easy to stay out of line of fire, keep concentration up, and you're outside the room while your critters take care of everything.

Keep in mind that in that thread the conjuring spells had been given a substantial boost- it's a bit different from how the spell is supposed to be used.

[Eldariel]

Shepherd Druid is stupid strong; probably the strongest Tier 2 class in the game unless you Rule 0 Conjure Animals and Conjure Woodland Beings down to uselessness through ****ty writing (like you can give 8 dead fish from it but that's just really not cool). And while it's not the strongest on Tier 3, it's still stupid strong; it just loses out to Simulacrum/Magic Jar/Contingency/etc. from Wizard book of bull****. I would suggest:
- Use Devil spell-likes and special abilities (stats for all Outsiders, really) from 3e or PF instead of 5e (you can just splat them directly onto 5e statblock). They have more spell-likes and largely more interesting abilities, which also makes them better at fighting crowds. Chain Devil would have Regeneration vs. Silver/Radiant for example, and the fear effect from Unnerving Gaze would last 1d3 rounds. Bearded Devils would have Greater Teleport at will. And many Devils have Unholy Blight, Fireball, Ice Storm, Wall of X, Image-spells, Invisibility, etc. which are generally of great utility vs. stupid masses of creatures. Makes them more interesting to face too.
- Nerf Conjure Animals mass summons. 1-2 strong things won't break encounters but under Bounded Accuracy, 8 small things absolutely will. Imagine that one day they get to summon 16 Velociraptors from a level 5 slot; that's 160 damage at +4 with Pack Tactics (comparable to +8-+9ish depending on enemy AC) per round without spending any additional actions for an hour. Compare that to every single other level 5- spell in the game or the performance of every other martial PC in the game and it's just totally off the charts. Get this: even assuming they all get wiped out in one round with one action, they still did way more than you'd expect out of a 5th level slot. And that's an ability that potentially lasts for 3-4 encounters! Even when you account for the fact that:

Hordes are weak to AOE
They take space and have difficulties fitting into cramped quarters (though Tiny raptors specifically fit pretty easily even into a 5' corridor as you can have 4 per square and they can share enter medium creatures' space for purposes of attacking)


Getting a horde of things is still just incomparably stronger than anything else under most circumstances for no real reason. 1/2/3/4 is more fair and all options are still useful. This way he can do his thing but it won't break the game quite as hard as default Shepherd (especially with the Totem it's pretty easy for a Shepherd to maintain their things for a whole hour). I think every single DM should just run these as 1/2/3/4 and the game would be much better for it.


Overall, Conjure Animals and Animate Dead are both ****ty designs since they seem to be designed without awareness of what Bounded Accuracy actually entails. Both need to be nerfed hard if you want them to be usable in a game without literally building every single encounter around countering them (and even if you do, they'll still be strong, that's how broken they are compared to everything else). Like, a normal full level 5 party vs. a solo level 8 Conjurer [let alone Necromancer] with 12 undead from 3rd level slots and as their first action summoning a Barlgura (from outside Line of Effect to avoid Counterspell) is at best an even fight for the party (not abusing minionmancy on their own) even though normally a single level 8 character vs. a party of 4 level 5 characters is an easy encounter.

[Unoriginal]

I've seen a Shepherd Druid in Descent into Avernus, she was strong but not really stronger than the rest of the party.

Then again it was a party of 4, so maybe that changes if you have more people on top of the animals.

Regardless, seriously, Avernus becomes much more of a challenge for all casters once you get out of Elturel. If you use the rules to make Hell be Hell, of course.

[Eldariel]

I've seen a Shepherd Druid in Descent into Avernus, she was strong but not really stronger than the rest of the party.

Then again it was a party of 4, so maybe that changes if you have more people on top of the animals.

Regardless, seriously, Avernus becomes much more of a challenge for all casters once you get out of Elturel. If you use the rules to make Hell be Hell, of course.

If you run one with 4 summons it'll still be more than fine. This won't break the caster, it'll just make their contribution broadly balanced with other options (granted, non-minionmancy options are limited due to omnipresent magic resistance and elemental resistance; but that just means you'll pick the few options that do work reliably and roll with those). Spell recovery is another matter, of course.

[Unoriginal]

Thanks to all so far.
All of us, including me, are enjoying it so far. I did re-jig the first bit to develop connections to Elturel as opposed to BG at the beginning, which is good advise to all. Chapter 2 is good as is.
Chapter 3 looks like it's more of a skeleton of a really good sandbox, which I like, but I'm definitely going to have to do a lot of work. I'd rather some of the 40ish pages on BG at the end of the mod were used to develop ch 3 as a huge open crawl, but I guess that's what I'm for.
My 3 martials do have magic weapons and are effective. The AT, particularly so, as he seems to to have a 'mage' hand in everything and get surprise regularly.
Not quite steamrolling yet, and I generally have to boost all published content vs. our group, but this one seems to be really due to largely one character. If I weigh what a martial is able to do vs. the druid and his 8 companions it isn't even close.

Hold on, they're level 6 and are still in chapter 2?


And as the spells last for an hour it's not just 1 or 2 encounters.

I mean once they have to travel? Kinda.

[stoutstien]

Hold on, they're level 6 and are still in chapter 2?


Not unheard of. If a party somehow only stay on the critical path the level guide matches up but if they go exploring at all it is not hard to exceed the outline. I've seen party from level 4-7 get to chapter 3.

This party is strong now but I can see some big hurdles once they start dealing with the effects of Avernus.

[Hael]

Yea I mean, in every tier you are going to have unbalanced subclasses. This is DND!

Shepherd druids, Tashas clerics and maybe artillerists or some paladins are the strongest in combat single class lvl6s in the game currently. And even though tier2 balance is pretty good, 8 velociraptors is still going to trivialize a lot of encounters.

If you are dealing with a party of four, you could simply treat them as a party of five or six with the summons out.

For DiA specifically, it’s more of a chore for LR classes bc of how resource intensive the module is, so be a little careful with too much balance, knowing that a Druid of that lvl doesn’t have unlimited slots.

[Stangler]

Yeah shepherd Druid takes a strong spell and kicks it up a huge amount and makes balance encounters difficult. Plus the ways of dealing with it can undermine your players build.

My biggest problem though was how much it slows down play.

When my son was playing one we had a lot of talks about how to deal with the issues and we settled on less creatures but the ones he wanted. The power problem is not really going away but that is typical for 5e.

[Eldariel]

Yea I mean, in every tier you are going to have unbalanced subclasses. This is DND!

Shepherd druids, Tashas clerics and maybe artillerists or some paladins are the strongest in combat single class lvl6s in the game currently. And even though tier2 balance is pretty good, 8 velociraptors is still going to trivialize a lot of encounters.

IDK how you can put any of those anywhere near the same level as Shepherd. Shepherd is more or less 9 characters beating up on stuff while the others are still, for most intents and purposes, 1 character with some power. Damage, durability, control, on any front Shepherd is going to come out ahead for 1 hour/level/casting of Conjure Animals.

The only competition is Cleric/Wizard/Divine Soul abusing Animate Dead (which is more involved but also more powerful), of which Wizard is obviously the best and Necromancer obviously has the easiest time abusing those.

[MaxWilson]

IDK how you can put any of those anywhere near the same level as Shepherd. Shepherd is more or less 9 characters beating up on stuff while the others are still, for most intents and purposes, 1 character with some power. Damage, durability, control, on any front Shepherd is going to come out ahead for 1 hour/level/casting of Conjure Animals.

The only competition is Cleric/Wizard/Divine Soul abusing Animate Dead (which is more involved but also more powerful), of which Wizard is obviously the best and Necromancer obviously has the easiest time abusing those.

Twilight cleric can abuse Animate Dead perfectly well. Less damage output than a Necromancer but same amount of control (grappling, etc.) and more effective HP, for PCs as well as undead.

[stoutstien]

IDK how you can put any of those anywhere near the same level as Shepherd. Shepherd is more or less 9 characters beating up on stuff while the others are still, for most intents and purposes, 1 character with some power. Damage, durability, control, on any front Shepherd is going to come out ahead for 1 hour/level/casting of Conjure Animals.

The only competition is Cleric/Wizard/Divine Soul abusing Animate Dead (which is more involved but also more powerful), of which Wizard is obviously the best and Necromancer obviously has the easiest time abusing those.

Depends on the level of the tactical depth a table is using. Having a bunch of moderately hearty disposable meat bags is a very strong tool but it can work against the party in a lot of ways.

Sort of like comparing it to Pass without a trace, which is a cheaper slot and can lead to more effective control of how, when, you address challenges rather than trying to blitz with a wall of fur.

[Sigreid]

Let them.

Seriously.

DAI is a terribly written module. I'm sorry, but it is. Filling the entire adventure with enemies resistant or outright immune to Fire, and heavily resistant to Cold and Lightning was just outright bad design. Takes out Dragon Sorcs to start with, along with Light Clerics and essentially Forge as well, and numerous other subclasses.

Few classes and subclasses can generate their own magic weapons. Monks, Devotion Paladins channel divinity can do it only every so often, etc.

My solution? Give the rest of the party members at least Hellfire weapons so they don't feel like they're peeing in the wind by attacking Fiends with mundane weaponry.

If you try to alter the encounters, you're creating an arms race with the party. Nobody wants that. That does not ever end well.

I also do not appreciate the inability of the party to just walk away, and am including an out for them if they choose to take it.

[Eldariel]

Twilight cleric can abuse Animate Dead perfectly well. Less damage output than a Necromancer but same amount of control (grappling, etc.) and more effective HP, for PCs as well as undead.

Aye, I agree that Cleric/Wizard in general are great but I'd just say "Cleric/Wizard" in general instead of just the XGE domains if I intended to say that. I found it a bit odd that one would mention those two specifically (they're probably stronger than other Clerics by a bit but if we're talking about an Animate Dead-abusing character, it doesn't seem like it'd matter that much - though Twilight Summon Divinity does go great with Animate Dead I do wager).

[5eNeedsDarksun]

As I look at this class a bit closer, the Bear Spirit Totem seems to stick out as a bit of an outlier (compared to other ways of getting bonus hp) in the way the bonus hp are calculated because it's a flat +5 and level, instead of being based on an ability score (Wisdom) or even proficiency bonus.
Maybe this seems minor, but both the examples in this thread had the characters taking Warcaster at 4th, and I think Resilient Con would also be a good choice, meaning Wisdom will likely remain at 16 until at least 8th level.
So we are talking about 2hp per creature per rest, which doesn't seem like much, but...
Thats 2 hp * (8 summoned creatures + 4 party members) and for our group also 2 hp * (4 skeletons animated by our cleric + a fifth party member + an NPC). Thats 2* 18 per rest = 36 hp or 108 HP in a long rest/ 2 short rest day.
It wouldn't be a game changer, but basing Bear Spirit on Wisdom seems like a good place to start to me.

[Waazraath]

As I look at this class a bit closer, the Bear Spirit Totem seems to stick out as a bit of an outlier (compared to other ways of getting bonus hp) in the way the bonus hp are calculated because it's a flat +5 and level, instead of being based on an ability score (Wisdom) or even proficiency bonus.
Maybe this seems minor, but both the examples in this thread had the characters taking Warcaster at 4th, and I think Resilient Con would also be a good choice, meaning Wisdom will likely remain at 16 until at least 8th level.
So we are talking about 2hp per creature per rest, which doesn't seem like much, but...
Thats 2 hp * (8 summoned creatures + 4 party members) and for our group also 2 hp * (4 skeletons animated by our cleric + a fifth party member + an NPC). Thats 2* 18 per rest = 36 hp or 108 HP in a long rest/ 2 short rest day.
It wouldn't be a game changer, but basing Bear Spirit on Wisdom seems like a good place to start to me.

Agreed that this is part of the problem. If you compare it with other classes that give temp hp to partymembers: glamour bards can use it on a limited number of creatures (cha mod), the amount is much lower, and it uses another resource (on the plus side, it also gives a movement opportunity for the folks it targets). Storm Herald barbarian gives a much lower amount (granted, every round, but so much lower that it is lower in total) and only in a small aura; only the inspiring leader feat (if you want to see feats as class features) is comparable in the amount of hp it gives, but that one takes 10 minutes to cast.

So not only is this the best temp hp provider as far as I can see - it has a practical unlimited number of targets (everybody in a 30 ft aura) and is given to the summoning class that also gives each summon extra hp with another class feature, in an edition where conjuring allies is already strong.

[Nhym]

As a primary Shepherd player I agree with the people saying don't nerf the player directly as that's what the subclass is built around, but instead let the players enjoy themselves and challenge them outwardly.

Shepherds are a tactical subclass with a bunch of options for pretty much every situation, so I would suggest matching their tactics equally. For example, the player uses their summons as a mobile army: make combats larger in scale and match their numbers and the numbers in action economy. You can have minor minions fight the summons and a few larger guys fight the party itself. Basically rather than find a way around the mechanics of the conjure spells, fight them head on. Sure fights will take longer but they can be epic in scale.

If you want more insight in the mindset of a Shepherd, feel free to reference my guide: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xXgYqPxkEHaCisQ0tteFF-KtsmfJxkOQojeWwHf22n4/edit?usp=sharing

[Valmark]

Agreed that this is part of the problem. If you compare it with other classes that give temp hp to partymembers: glamour bards can use it on a limited number of creatures (cha mod), the amount is much lower, and it uses another resource (on the plus side, it also gives a movement opportunity for the folks it targets). Storm Herald barbarian gives a much lower amount (granted, every round, but so much lower that it is lower in total) and only in a small aura; only the inspiring leader feat (if you want to see feats as class features) is comparable in the amount of hp it gives, but that one takes 10 minutes to cast.

So not only is this the best temp hp provider as far as I can see - it has a practical unlimited number of targets (everybody in a 30 ft aura) and is given to the summoning class that also gives each summon extra hp with another class feature, in an edition where conjuring allies is already strong.

With Tasha not the best anymore- Twilight cleric gives the same amount repeatedly for a minute and heals conditions. And can be used more times per rest.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Agreed that this is part of the problem. If you compare it with other classes that give temp hp to partymembers: glamour bards can use it on a limited number of creatures (cha mod), the amount is much lower, and it uses another resource (on the plus side, it also gives a movement opportunity for the folks it targets). Storm Herald barbarian gives a much lower amount (granted, every round, but so much lower that it is lower in total) and only in a small aura; only the inspiring leader feat (if you want to see feats as class features) is comparable in the amount of hp it gives, but that one takes 10 minutes to cast.

So not only is this the best temp hp provider as far as I can see - it has a practical unlimited number of targets (everybody in a 30 ft aura) and is given to the summoning class that also gives each summon extra hp with another class feature, in an edition where conjuring allies is already strong.

For sure. My calculation of 108 extra hp/ day was based on a comparison to the next best option, inspirational leader. Comparison to some of those others would be a difference of potentially 100s more hp. Something more reasonable might lead the Druid to at least consider summoning fewer high level minions is some cases; ie: they would have to make a situational and tactical choice, which I think would show balance and be more interesting.

[Valmark]

For sure. My calculation of 108 extra hp/ day was based on a comparison to the next best option, inspirational leader. Comparison to some of those others would be a difference of potentially 100s more hp. Something more reasonable might lead the Druid to at least consider summoning fewer high level minions is some cases; ie: they would have to make a situational and tactical choice, which I think would show balance and be more interesting.

The next best option would be Twilight Sanctuary, not Inspiring Leader- and that one blows the Bear Totem out of the water unless you have like... One round of fighting in a whole minute.