Rough bracketing of damage output by Optimization level?

[Learn34]

Proper Prefixes: DM Help, Optimization, 3.x Homebrew (Class)

So one of my players is not having fun with the game I'm running, and to try to ameliorate this I want to let him play a custom class. That said, in order to understand how over-powerd the damage aspect of his class is or is-not (the skill-monkey portion is fine) I need to have a general sense of what damage-optimized builds can do, what their draw-backs are, and the kind of character resource investment required to achieve it.

Specifically, I've had difficulty finding fully-fledged optimized Archery builds, which is the style of combat this player is looking for.

[rrwoods]

Proper Prefixes: DM Help, Optimization, 3.x Homebrew (Class)

So one of my players is not having fun with the game I'm running, and to try to ameliorate this I want to let him play a custom class. That said, in order to understand how over-powerd the damage aspect of his class is or is-not (the skill-monkey portion is fine) I need to have a general sense of what damage-optimized builds can do, what their draw-backs are, and the kind of character resource investment required to achieve it.

Specifically, I've had difficulty finding fully-fledged optimized Archery builds, which is the style of combat this player is looking for.

Piggy probably has some things to say about this:

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?284283-Piggy-Knowles-Archer-Build-Thread

Most notable to me is number 9, the "murderous sniper", because it comes closest to being "just an archer". As fun as some of the other ones look in their own right, they aren't what I think of when I think "I want to play an archer" -- but regardless, all ten might have something you like!

Also in the vein of "archers", one of the recent Optimization Showcases (also from Piggy) was an archer build that looks pretty sweet:

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?584417-Optimization-Showcase-in-the-Playground-Zen-in-the-Art-of-Archery

[Rebel7284]

As far as fairy high OP, see builds posted in this thread: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?617695-Arrowsplit-optimization

Now, there is some grey areas about how splitting+Arrowsplit + Twin Spell stack or not, but even in the most conservative reading, it's 72d8+1872 and 144 Constitution Damage

[Anthrowhale]

I expect it is more useful to bracket off of monster hp and take as a constraint performance over levels 1-20. At each level, you would like to be able to (say) do 50% of hp damage against CR=level monsters.

[Biggus]

What level are they starting at?

[newguydude1]

uberchargers and the like can one shot any creature. i personally had a steel predator with persistent wraithstrike and persistent bite of the weretiger on top of other stuff like girallons blessing. he couldnt one shot creatures with 15dr but everyone else was one shotted.

i had a two weapon fighting fighter as a partymate and he dealt 150 damage a round.

we werent practical op because, well, that fighter isnt an optimizer. i didnt look too closely how he got 150 damage a round. we were level 12.

so to answer your question, mid-high op you need to expect beatsticks to one shot creatures. i consider uberchargeres to be mid op.

what makes things high op is not the damage numbers, its other stuff.

[Gruftzwerg]

While not Archery (bow), I can offer other ranged builds that might be interesting:

El Mariachi - dual double-crossbows with some minor spells and healing (link in signature)

and if you are looking for odd builds that kick in on later levels, Bloodstorm Blade ranged ubercharger build can be fun.
ShurikenNado (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?526875)- Shuriken ubercharger build
Hammerdin - ranged ubercharger that uses warhammers (link in signature)

[Firebug]

Though this resource is aimed more at Pathfinder, I've found it useful for other systems as well.
Bench-Pressing: Character creation by the numbers (https://rpgwillikers.wordpress.com/2015/09/29/bench-pressing-character-creation-by-the-numbers/).
You just have to sub in a different chart for monster AC/HP/Etc. A quick internet search pulls up a chart for 'core MM' here (https://www.enworld.org/threads/average-ac-and-hp-of-core-monsters-by-cr.138024/), though I am sure there are tons.

[H_H_F_F]

In general, archery in 3.5 is bad, and if you're comfortable with homebrew, letting the player play a homebrew archer doesn't seem like a bad idea.

Damage output can be optimizes like crazy with chargers, but I'd say you shouldn't be comparing the player to what's going on in other tables. Make sure he doesn't outshine the rest of your table with this class - as long as he doesn't, you're fine.

[Learn34]

Thanks folks, this is exactly the pointers and info I needed :) Haven't looked through all of it yet, but it'll definitely serve as a thorough reference going forward. The current party is ECl 6-ish, but I have hopes (delusions) of actually running them to 20 or beyond.

[Endarire]

Often, the best archers in 3.5 have been casters (Artificers or Clerics) who also arch.