How Necessary is Wisdom for a Kensei Monk

[werescythe]

So I have this character I am working on that is a Kensei monk. Now while I know that monks usually focus on both Dex and Wis, I noticed that there aren't really any abilities in the subclass that are affected by Wis and as far as I can tell (correct me if I'm wrong) the only thing in the base class that is affected by Wis is Unarmored Defense.

So I guess the question is, if I max out Dex and I managed to get Wis to +3, do I really need to invest any further into Wis?

[Unoriginal]

So I have this character I am working on that is a Kensei monk. Now while I know that monks usually focus on both Dex and Wis, I noticed that there aren't really any abilities in the subclass that are affected by Wis and as far as I can tell (correct me if I'm wrong) the only thing in the base class that is affected by Wis is Unarmored Defense.

So I guess the question is, if I max out Dex and I managed to get Wis to +3, do I really need to invest any further into Wis?

WIS also affect the save DC for your Stunning Strike.

But if AC 18 and save DC 11+proficiency is enough for you, go for it.

[MaxWilson]

So I have this character I am working on that is a Kensei monk. Now while I know that monks usually focus on both Dex and Wis, I noticed that there aren't really any abilities in the subclass that are affected by Wis and as far as I can tell (correct me if I'm wrong) the only thing in the base class that is affected by Wis is Unarmored Defense.

So I guess the question is, if I max out Dex and I managed to get Wis to +3, do I really need to invest any further into Wis?

I wouldn't run an Wis 10 Kensei unless it was a lizardman but yeah, Wis 16 should be fine. You'll be a little less efficient at Stunning Strike (you may have to spend ~20% more ki per stun than a Wis 20 Kensei would) but if you spend those extra ASIs wisely you can get feats that are more helpful to you than extra Wisdom. E.g. Sharpshooter, Crossbow Expert or Crusher (with slings), Prodigy (Athletics for grappling), Defensive Duelist, Mobile. (Fighter 1 for Archery style may also be helpful.) Obviously you can't afford all of those at once but they are options to consider adding to your toolbox.

[Unoriginal]

I wouldn't run an Wis 10 Kensei unless it was a lizardman but yeah, Wis 16 should be fine. You'll be a little less efficient at Stunning Strike (you may have to spend ~20% more ki per stun than a Wis 20 Kensei would) but if you spend those extra ASIs wisely you can get feats that are more helpful to you than extra Wisdom. E.g. Sharpshooter, Crossbow Expert or Crusher (with slings), Prodigy (Athletics for grappling), Defensive Duelist, Mobile. (Fighter 1 for Archery style may also be helpful.) Obviously you can't afford all of those at once but they are options to consider adding to your toolbox.

Can also get Archery through Fighting Initiate. Multiclassing into Fighter can be worthwhile, but generally 2 levels are much more tempting.

Also now I'm wondering how viable a WIS 10 Tortle Kensei would be.

[MaxWilson]

Can also get Archery through Fighting Initiate. Multiclassing into Fighter can be worthwhile, but generally 2 levels are much more tempting.

Also now I'm wondering how viable a WIS 10 Tortle Kensei would be.

I'm personally not tempted by 2 levels of Fighter (and even one level should wait until level 12ish) but YMMV.

[Unoriginal]

I'm personally not tempted by 2 levels of Fighter (and even one level should wait until level 12ish) but YMMV..

I meant if you take one, taking a second is generally worth it. Action Surge is no joke.

I'm not a fan of Fighter multiclassing for Monks in general, due to Monks benefiting a lot from single-classing. Although I've been working on a few variations of Rune Knight 3/Monk X lately.

[MaxWilson]

.

I meant if you take one, taking a second is generally worth it. Action Surge is no joke.


On a mage, Action Surge is great because you can do combos like Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound + Wall of Force, or Wall of Force + Dimension Door to safety. But monks are as much about bonus actions as actions, and their actions aren't that strong. On a monk, Action Surge is 2 extra attacks per short rest--not worth delaying Empty Body and Diamond Soul for, IMO, not when you've already got 3-4 attacks per round.

[x3n0n]

I meant if you take one, taking a second is generally worth it. Action Surge is no joke.

While Action Surge is awesome, it seems like Kensei Monk's Action Surge is less (relatively) impressive because so much of its power is in its bonus action, and what is a Kensei going to do besides Attack, and "only" twice?

I can see more in other subclasses, though. Shadow and Elemonk seem like great Surgers!

Edit: ninja'ed. :)

[J-H]

I would invest in DEX first for to-hit, damage, and AC.
Wisdom is good if you are using Stunning Strike a lot.

[Scarytincan]

War cleric 1 is my favorite kensei dip. Much better on kensei than other monk subclasses. Free BA weapon attacks, martial weapons, a good variety of cleric spells and rituals, and most importantly divine favor on a class with 4 attacks pretty early that doesn't need a BA to move to other targets like hunters mark and hex

[Amechra]

I think this might be relevant to your interests. (forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?626095-The-Way-of-Zen-Archery-A-Mini-Guide-To-The-Post-Tasha-s-Kensei)

[werescythe]

I wouldn't run an Wis 10 Kensei unless it was a lizardman but yeah, Wis 16 should be fine. You'll be a little less efficient at Stunning Strike (you may have to spend ~20% more ki per stun than a Wis 20 Kensei would) but if you spend those extra ASIs wisely you can get feats that are more helpful to you than extra Wisdom. E.g. Sharpshooter, Crossbow Expert or Crusher (with slings), Prodigy (Athletics for grappling), Defensive Duelist, Mobile. (Fighter 1 for Archery style may also be helpful.) Obviously you can't afford all of those at once but they are options to consider adding to your toolbox.

Well, I'm actually focusing on being a slash and dash katana (longsword) user. Currently my Dex is maxed out but my Wis is at 15. I was thinking of maybe taking either Mobile or Skill Expert (bump up the Wis to 16 for +3, grab perception or whatever other skill fits my character, and then maybe giving double prof to Stealth) next. At the same time I also wonder if since I am a Kobold (which is a small race) if I should invest in Squat Nimbleness at some point.


WIS also affect the save DC for your Stunning Strike.

But if AC 18 and save DC 11+proficiency is enough for you, go for it.

Oh yeah, there's the thing I forgot. lol. :smallbiggrin:

This is technically my first time playing a monk so I'm still new to this stuff. You can use Stunning Strike with your Kensei weapon right?

[MaxWilson]

Well, I'm actually focusing on being a slash and dash katana (longsword) user. Currently my Dex is maxed out but my Wis is at 15. I was thinking of maybe taking either Mobile or Skill Expert (bump up the Wis to 16 for +3, grab perception or whatever other skill fits my character, and then maybe giving double prof to Stealth). At the same time I also wonder if since I am a Kobold (which is a small race) if I should invest in Squat Nimbleness at some point.

Oh yeah, there's the thing I forgot. lol. :smallbiggrin:

This is technically my first time playing a monk so I'm still new to this stuff. You can use Stunning Strike with your Kensei weapon right?

Since you're playing with Tasha's rules, and grappling isn't a good option (you're too small), I'd say Slasher is a better feat for you than Skill Expert. Mobile is also excellent but is more favorable to ranged characters than melee characters--Mobile lets an archer present the enemy with a dilemma (chase after you and accomplish nothing, or get filled full of arrows while doing nothing) but for a melee Kensei it's less a dilemma and more just a trick with an answer: a wise enemy will just move 10' or so back and ignore you, and now you'll have to waste a turn and/or waste ki (Step of the Wind) attacking it on your next turn, and might not be able to get back out of its range for turn 3--unless you switch to ranged weapons and shoot an arrow at it.

Stunning Strike works with any melee weapon attack (as opposed to spell attack), so yes, you can stun with your Kensei weapons as long as it's a melee weapon. You can also stun with your punches/knee strikes/head butts/etc., which are all classified as "melee weapon (unarmed strikes)".

Squat Nimbleness, meh, it's a relatively small return on investment for a feat. I think you get good mileage out of Mobile, but that's because (1) you get a flat speed boost, (2) you get to save bonus actions and ki by not having to Disengage when skirmishing, (3) difficult terrain doesn't affect you while Dashing so you can leverage difficult terrain to open up distance. Squat Nimbleness really only gives you half of benefit #1 (5' speed boost instead of 10'), a probably-irrelevant skill proficiency (hopefully you are already proficient in Acrobatics or Athletics, and Athletics for you only lets you grapple Medium creatures), advantage on a check that you don't need (when grappled you're going to Stun the grappler with 3-4 melee attacks and Stunning Strike, not spend your whole turn on making a single ability check to escape the grapple), and +1 to Dex. It feels to me like it's about half as good as Mobile, and there are many feats that are more than half as good as Mobile, e.g. Defensive Duelist for a melee Kensei is probably about 100% as good as Mobile, just in a different way. It lets you tank instead of skirmish.

[x3n0n]

At the same time I also wonder if since I am a Kobold (which is a small race) if I should invest in Squat Nimbleness at some point.

This is technically my first time playing a monk so I'm still new to this stuff. You can use Stunning Strike with your Kensei weapon right?

Re: Squat Nimbleness: I doubt that it will ever be the best feat to take, unless you are constantly being grappled, like multiple times per combat. You get extra move from being a Monk, you can take Acrobatics as a normal proficiency, and there are better Dex half-ASI feats (like Skill Expert).

Yes, Stunning Strike functions on all melee (non-spell) attacks. This is also good with Whip, which is a fun kensei weapon later on (since the damage die scales up with Martial Arts).

Edit: man, ninja'ed again!

[werescythe]

I'd say Slasher is a better feat for you than Skill Expert.

Well, I'm already taking Slasher, that's how I got the 20 Dex (plus I think the feat looked really cool). :smallsmile:

[x3n0n]

Well, I'm already taking Slasher, that's how I got the 20 Dex (plus I think the feat looked really cool). :smallsmile:

Slasher makes Whip an even better Kensei weapon, which in turn makes Defensive Duelist look better (since it is a finesse weapon and longsword isn't) and Mobile look slightly less exciting (since you'll often get to slash with reach and run away if you want, even without Mobile). With Tasha's Ki-Fueled Attack, you can often make your bonus action attack with the whip as well, getting to stay out of melee anyway.

Also, already having 20 Dex makes me even more confident in recommending against Squat Nimbleness; I would be very surprised if a +1 Str half-ASI feat is the best call.

Sounds fun; enjoy!

[werescythe]

Slasher makes Whip an even better Kensei weapon, which in turn makes Defensive Duelist look better (since it is a finesse weapon and longsword isn't) and Mobile look slightly less exciting (since you'll often get to slash with reach and run away if you want, even without Mobile). With Tasha's Ki-Fueled Attack, you can often make your bonus action attack with the whip as well, getting to stay out of melee anyway.

True, but as I said, this character is focused around using a katana (longsword), so defensive duelist sadly isn't an option. That's one reason why I had thought of taking a feat to round up my 15 Wis (though I want to avoid anything with magic as in the past I have played a lot of mages and I wanted to try something new with the character), which was why I was thinking of Skill Expert.

I suppose I could go Observant as well, but without being proficient in Perception it doesn't feel right, you know what I mean?

[x3n0n]

True, but as I said, this character is focused around using a katana (longsword), so defensive duelist sadly isn't an option. That's one reason why I had thought of taking a feat to round up my 15 Wis (though I want to avoid anything with magic as in the past I have played a lot of mages and I wanted to try something new with the character), which was why I was thinking of Skill Expert.

I suppose I could go Observant as well, but without being proficient in Perception it doesn't feel right, you know what I mean?

Ah, I see. I thought you were already at 16 Wis and deciding what to do afterwards (and didn't realize that the katana was definitely going to remain your long-term weapon). (I had not read one of your mid-thread posts closely enough--sorry.)

Yes, I would probably round up to 16. Skill Expert is a fine choice (you could even take Perception for the first proficiency), as is Fey Touched (lots of good choices for a daily 1st-level spell: Bless/Hex/Hunter's Mark are all useful in combat and don't really on having a high Wis). Chef is no Inspiring Leader, but it is a Wis bump and a mild party buff.

FWIW, Defensive Duelist *can* still work later on; you can draw a dagger or shortsword (wakizashi) after slashing on turns that you expect to get counterattacked, or just hold them both and accept the d8 instead of d10 katana damage when it's relevant.

[Unoriginal]

True, but as I said, this character is focused around using a katana (longsword), so defensive duelist sadly isn't an option. That's one reason why I had thought of taking a feat to round up my 15 Wis (though I want to avoid anything with magic as in the past I have played a lot of mages and I wanted to try something new with the character), which was why I was thinking of Skill Expert.

I suppose I could go Observant as well, but without being proficient in Perception it doesn't feel right, you know what I mean?

If you want to round out WIS, Telepathic and Telekinetic are great feats for it.

[x3n0n]

If you want to round out WIS, Telepathic and Telekinetic are great feats for it.

One note: Telekinetic's bonus action shove is less good for a Monk than for other classes because of bonus action clog. Not bad, but you'll almost always be giving up something else good with your bonus action.