Extended Spell for pre-fight buffs?

[Silpharon]

So I often hear that extended spell ranks at the bottom of the list for metamagic options. One of the reasons is that using it on 1-minute buff spells like Haste is futile because you won't be able to use it in multiple fights.

It seems to me that the proper use of Extended Spell is before a fight. I know this isn't always applicable, but many times you can scout out trouble ahead. By casting Extended Haste on myself before rolling initiative, I've got a full minute to get in position to start the fight, and when the fight starts, I've got the full extra minute of active Haste, and more importantly I'm not wasting a turn casting the buff. Without using Extended Spell, I find it unlikely for a DM to allow this pre-buffing without it running out mid-fight.

This gets even more fun with Glyph of Warding buffs. If I've got a Portable Hole, I can ahead of time create an Extended Haste spell glyph in that space. Then when I scout trouble in the field, set up the hole, climb in and release extended Haste on myself, climb out and close the hole. The latter part would take only 6-12 seconds, leaving plenty of time to charge into the boss fight, hasted without concentration.

What do you guys think? Should Extended Spell get more respect for these pre-fight buff maneuvers?

[PhantomSoul]

I'd lean towards 10-minute spells being good for pre-fight buff extensions since you could cast them before you reach the target area (though then it feels like a smaller gap between 10-20 minutes [when you had time anyway] and 1-2 minutes [where it could make a difference if you can hide the casting or cast a little bit farther away]).

To me 8-hour buffs are the big winners. 8x2-hour Foresight? Great way to use a slot before going to bed (by default) or great way to prepare for a fight the next morning. Same for Death Ward. Perhaps Darkvision (though you likely have a plan B, and this is borderline given the spell slot used, so it could vary more between a Sorcerer and someone who just has a Tasha's Feat). Mage Armor likely isn't worth it. Non-Detection and Tiny Servant could have some use. Seeming in very specific contexts. Depending on your goals, maybe Etherealness. But really, Foresight all the way (if you ever get that far into the game).

[Silpharon]

I'd lean towards 10-minute spells being good for pre-fight buff extensions since you could cast them before you reach the target area (though then it feels like a smaller gap between 10-20 minutes [when you had time anyway] and 1-2 minutes [where it could make a difference if you can hide the casting or cast a little bit farther away]).

To me 8-hour buffs are the big winners. 8x2-hour Foresight? Great way to use a slot before going to bed (by default) or great way to prepare for a fight the next morning. Same for Death Ward. Perhaps Darkvision (though you likely have a plan B, and this is borderline given the spell slot used, so it could vary more between a Sorcerer and someone who just has a Tasha's Feat). Mage Armor likely isn't worth it. Non-Detection and Tiny Servant could have some use. Seeming in very specific contexts. Depending on your goals, maybe Etherealness. But really, Foresight all the way (if you ever get that far into the game).

Yeah, Aid and Gift of Alacrity both also work well for the 2x8-hour trick.

Most of the really good buffs are 1-minute in duration, and it seems in my games that a familiar or other scout can often find the enemies a few rooms away without detection. This gives plenty of time for a 2-minute Haste to be cast beforehand and then acted upon as you charge the room. If, on the other hand, the enemies spot the scout, we'd need to roll initiative then and there. If that happens more often than not, then 20-minute buffs or not using extended spell at all is the way to go.

[MaxWilson]

So I often hear that extended spell ranks at the bottom of the list for metamagic options. One of the reasons is that using it on 1-minute buff spells like Haste is futile because you won't be able to use it in multiple fights.

It seems to me that the proper use of Extended Spell is before a fight. I know this isn't always applicable, but many times you can scout out trouble ahead. By casting Extended Haste on myself before rolling initiative, I've got a full minute to get in position to start the fight, and when the fight starts, I've got the full extra minute of active Haste, and more importantly I'm not wasting a turn casting the buff. Without using Extended Spell, I find it unlikely for a DM to allow this pre-buffing without it running out mid-fight.

This gets even more fun with Glyph of Warding buffs. If I've got a Portable Hole, I can ahead of time create an Extended Haste spell glyph in that space. Then when I scout trouble in the field, set up the hole, climb in and release extended Haste on myself, climb out and close the hole. The latter part would take only 6-12 seconds, leaving plenty of time to charge into the boss fight, hasted without concentration.

What do you guys think? Should Extended Spell get more respect for these pre-fight buff maneuvers?

It's not bad for stuff like Animate Objects (2 minutes gives you more slack time to get your 30'-flying-speed objects into position before kicking down a door/whatever, and less worries about them simply dropping out of the air before you even see any enemies, or two rounds into the combat).

But the best uses of Extended Spell are (1) long-duration buffs (Extended Death Ward, Extended Air) cast before going to bed at night, so they are still available the first 8 hours of the next day, and (2) doubling the healing output of Aura of Vitality.

Incidentally it's not bad either on spells like Disguise Self/Seeming, Invisibility V and Pass Without Trace, if you're doing an extended stealth mission where you have to recast the spells multiple times. It's a significant boost to efficiency in these cases, if you happen to have both the spells in question and access to metamagic. It's not something I would take Sorc 3 for specifically though, whereas I would for Aura of Vitality.

[sophontteks]

I wish extended followed along the durations the game uses, instead of double. So 1 min turns to 10. An hour turns to 8. 8 turns to 24.

[stoutstien]

I wish extended followed along the durations the game uses, instead of double. So 1 min turns to 10. An hour turns to 8. 8 turns to 24.

I couldn't even fathom how broken that would be lol.

[ATHATH]

It's also very nice for Divine Souls, who can extend Cleric spells like Aid(!), Planar Binding, and the aforementioned Death Ward without needing to multiclass.

[MaxWilson]

It's also very nice for Divine Souls, who can extend Cleric spells like Aid(!), Planar Binding, and the aforementioned Death Ward without needing to multiclass.

Extended Spell is useless for Planar Binding - - the maximum extended duration is 24 hours, and Planar Binding is already 24 hours.

[Silpharon]

Rope Trick extended to 2 hours lets you cast 1 hour spells inside. Could make for some interesting combos...

[sophontteks]

I couldn't even fathom how broken that would be lol.
Yeah, that's the problem. The intent of extended spell is more along the lines of what I described, but they were worried about it being broken and instead made it useless.

Maybe we should imagine how broken it would be if the OP could do exactly what he described, which is quite hard to pull off with only 1 more minute, but easily done with 10.

Is it really that broken? Could it work if it was more expensive?

[RSP]

Extended is good; it would be better if it could double the duration of any non-instant (up to 24 hours). This would allow Extended Shield, Extended AE, etc. Not a huge boost to the power of the Metamagic, but enough that it makes it a more competitive option.

[stoutstien]

Yeah, that's the problem. The intent of extended spell is more along the lines of what I described, but they were worried about it being broken and instead made it useless.

Maybe we should imagine how broken it would be if the OP could do exactly what he described, which is quite hard to pull off with only 1 more minute, but easily done with 10.

Is it really that broken? Could it work if it was more expensive?

Its far from useless. For DS especially they get a lot of mileage from it just because the cleric spelled just works better for this particular metamagic.

as max pointed out above, once it's combined with AoV it becomes one of the most potent healing effects in the game and thanks tasha you can do it with a single class DS.

[Hytheter]

Divine Soul can upcast Extended Aid, take a Long Rest and then still have 8 hours of Aid.

[Silpharon]

Maybe we should imagine how broken it would be if the OP could do exactly what he described, which is quite hard to pull off with only 1 more minute, but easily done with 10.

Is it really that broken?

I don't think that would be any more broken than subtle metamagic counterspell, or quicken metamagic high level scorching ray while concentrating spirit shroud.

So you think an extra minute isn't long enough if you scout the enemy in a nearby room? The main concern I could see is a verbal component of the spell tipping off the enemy and losing the element of surprise. The glyph way to do this wouldn't have that constraint... You could pantomime to cause the spell glyph trigger! :)


Its far from useless. For DS especially they get a lot of mileage from it just because the cleric spelled just works better for this particular metamagic.

as max pointed out above, once it's combined with AoV it becomes one of the most potent healing effects in the game and thanks tasha you can do it with a single class DS.

Oof, that's a good one. I was considering multiclassing to DS Sorc level 5 to pick up Counterspell and Spirit Shroud, but if I stay at level 5 I only get two 3rd level spells... Maybe I should go 6 and get AoV and the healing subclass trait.

[MaxWilson]

Its far from useless. For DS especially they get a lot of mileage from it just because the cleric spelled just works better for this particular metamagic.

as max pointed out above, once it's combined with AoV it becomes one of the most potent healing effects in the game and thanks tasha you can do it with a single class DS.

Nitpick: Tasha's technically doesn't give Divine Souls access to that particular cleric ability (Expanded Spell List), so you still need to multiclass to at least Cleric 1. Life Cleric would work. Then you need to get to get your DM to agree that you can have this explicitly non-automatic ability. (But then again, if you can get your DM to agree to that you can probably get him to agree to give it to you without the Life Cleric dip at all, without relying on Tasha's at all.)

@OP, outside of Tasha's, you can get it via Mark of Healing (halfling) or Paladin 9 or Lore Bard 6 or Bard 10+. Fair warning: IMO the full combo of Extended Aura of Vitality + Disciple of Life for 1200+ HP of healing per day by level 6 is overkill. It's so much healing that using any other abilities outside of a deadly combat feels like a waste - - why Hypnotic Pattern or Fireball a bunch of orcs when all they're threatening to do is HP damage anyway? It's so much healing that IMO the game is more fun and challenging without it (kind of like Animate Dead). Caveat emptor and all that.

IMO the basic Aura of Vitality (on a full caster like a Lore Bard) is a pretty good balance between cost and effectiveness already. 5 spell points for 70 healing is good but other spells like Shield are still competitive. Quadrupling the healing output for 1 sorcery point and a level in Life Cleric is like playing the whole game on easy mode.

[Silpharon]

Nitpick: Tasha's technically doesn't give Divine Souls access to that particular cleric ability (Expanded Spell List), so you still need to multiclass to at least Cleric 1. Life Cleric would work. Then you need to get to get your DM to agree that you can have this explicitly non-automatic ability. (But then again, if you can get your DM to agree to that you can probably get him to agree to give it to you without the Life Cleric dip at all, without relying on Tasha's at all.)

@OP, outside of Tasha's, you can get it via Mark of Healing (halfling) or Paladin 9 or Lore Bard 6 or Bard 10+. Fair warning: IMO the full combo of Extended Aura of Vitality + Disciple of Life for 1200+ HP of healing per day by level 6 is overkill. It's so much healing that using any other abilities outside of a deadly combat feels like a waste - - why Hypnotic Pattern or Fireball a bunch of orcs when all they're threatening to do is HP damage anyway? It's so much healing that IMO the game is more fun and challenging without it (kind of like Animate Dead). Caveat emptor and all that.

IMO the basic Aura of Vitality (on a full caster like a Lore Bard) is a pretty good balance between cost and effectiveness already. 5 spell points for 70 healing is good but other spells like Shield are still competitive. Quadrupling the healing output for 1 sorcery point and a level in Life Cleric is like playing the whole game on easy mode.

Just to be clear, you're saying it doesn't work RAW because the DS Sorc doesn't get access to Tasha's expanded cleric spell list since it's listed in the book as an optional first level cleric ability? That's pretty rough on the nitpickyness! The Tasha's ability also says "Xanathar's Guide to Everything also offers more spells.", but that book didn't list the expanded spells as part of a 1st level ability. Since DS Sorc came out of XgtE, I'd say the intent is that the DS Sorc could use the full cleric spell list, which now includes several more spells from Tasha's...

As for the power of Life Cleric + extended spell + AoV, I agree it seems like a cheat button... Even 70 healing outside of combat from one 3rd level spell seems strong. I was thinking my ranger's goodberry combined with Font of Magic to get more 1st level slots was great, but it doesn't touch this...

[MaxWilson]

Just to be clear, you're saying it doesn't work RAW because the DS Sorc doesn't get access to Tasha's expanded cleric spell list since it's listed in the book as an optional first level cleric ability?

Yup. Divine Soul gets to add spells from the cleric list to their sorcerer list, but for clerics without that optional 1st level cleric ability, and for those who aren't clerics at all, they aren't cleric spells, any more than they are sorcerer spells for non-Divine Souls. (Another example: bardic secrets turn specific spells into Bard spells for that Bard, but they aren't Bard spells for anyone else, unless something else like a Dragonmark has made them into bard spells.)

Obviously your DM can override that, and perhaps should. (Or just not allow the optional feature, period.) Just because something is written in a book published by WotC doesn't make it good game design--look at Yochlol mistform for example as a completely broken (as in, nonsensical and useless ability) piece of RAW which clearly should have been written with different wording.

[stoutstien]

Nitpick: Tasha's technically doesn't give Divine Souls access to that particular cleric ability (Expanded Spell List), so you still need to multiclass to at least Cleric 1. Life Cleric would work. Then you need to get to get your DM to agree that you can have this explicitly non-automatic ability. (But then again, if you can get your DM to agree to that you can probably get him to agree to give it to you without the Life Cleric dip at all, without relying on Tasha's at all.)

@OP, outside of Tasha's, you can get it via Mark of Healing (halfling) or Paladin 9 or Lore Bard 6 or Bard 10+. Fair warning: IMO the full combo of Extended Aura of Vitality + Disciple of Life for 1200+ HP of healing per day by level 6 is overkill. It's so much healing that using any other abilities outside of a deadly combat feels like a waste - - why Hypnotic Pattern or Fireball a bunch of orcs when all they're threatening to do is HP damage anyway? It's so much healing that IMO the game is more fun and challenging without it (kind of like Animate Dead). Caveat emptor and all that.

IMO the basic Aura of Vitality (on a full caster like a Lore Bard) is a pretty good balance between cost and effectiveness already. 5 spell points for 70 healing is good but other spells like Shield are still competitive. Quadrupling the healing output for 1 sorcery point and a level in Life Cleric is like playing the whole game on easy mode.

Very true. It's one of those few combos I actually think hurt the game. It also comes online sooner than most of the other truly game breaking ones.

DS still get a lot of mileage out of extend to the point I would consider it one of the best option for them along with twin. Assuming they aren't playing a disco ball guiding bolt spammer.

[Valmark]

But the best uses of Extended Spell are (1) long-duration buffs (Extended Death Ward, Extended Air) cast before going to bed at night, so they are still available the first 8 hours of the next day, and (2) doubling the healing output of Aura of Vitality.

Yeah, I hate it when I run out of oxygen during the day.

[Silpharon]

Yup. Divine Soul gets to add spells from the cleric list to their sorcerer list, but for clerics without that optional 1st level cleric ability, and for those who aren't clerics at all, they aren't cleric spells, any more than they are sorcerer spells for non-Divine Souls. (Another example: bardic secrets turn specific spells into Bard spells for that Bard, but they aren't Bard spells for anyone else, unless something else like a Dragonmark has made them into bard spells.)

I wonder if that was intended. It seemed just convenient way to make it an optional feature at level 1, since that's when a cleric gets spellcasting. Case in point - the first spells offered by this feature are 3rd level, so there's really no reason not to make this a level 5 feature...

[Jerrykhor]

The problem with Extended is that it only improves certain spells. Buffing it will only buff the combos of those spells, but i would hardly call that broken. The main problem of picking Extended is the opportunity cost of not picking any of the better Metamagic instead. It doesn't vastly change the nature of the spell like Twinned, Quicken or Subtle does. I'd also argue that Extend is probably a bit worse than Distant.