Great old one warlock still worth it?

[Rfkannen]

With tasha's we now have 1) a feat that gives you one way telepathy and 2) the fathomless warlock, which is also sort of great old one themed.

With those two things, is there a good reason to play a great old one warlock instead of a fathomless warlock with the telepath feat?

Like literally, level one feature is a feat. level 10 feature super rarely comes up. level 14 feature is just dominate person but worse.

Also goo warlock's whole thing is control... which fathomless seems to do better.



I like the idea of the goo warlock, and I want it to be a good option, so I would really like to be convinced that it is. But as far as I can tell a fathomless warlock with telepath just does everything better.

Is there still a good reason (other than just not liking tentacles, which is legit) to play a goo warlock?

[SpanielBear]

Well first off, 1 way telepathy *without* a feat-tax frees either that or an ASI, which is nice. As class abilities go, it’s not as obviously strong in combat as a pet tentacle but I’ve found it much more useful generally. It also plays into the GOOlocks other strength which is expanded spell list with mental manipulation being emphasised. A combination of GOOlock, telepathy, detect thoughts and disguise self as an invocation is an incredibly versatile information gatherer. Add to that being a charisma caster to make persuasion/deception easier, and you have an excellent party face who can be smiling and chatting to a guard captain whilst feeding information to the party without anyone being the wiser. You could even take sorcerous metamagic with that feat you saved for subtle spell.

I won’t argue that the 10th level pact gift isn’t situational, or that the 14th level one isn’t disappointing. It’s not the best warlock, but they all suffer compared to hexblade in terms of raw optimisation. But I do think it remains characterful, not egregiously underpowered, and has a niche. Especially with Tasha’s new spells.

[Yakmala]

GOO is a great class to pair with a Kenku without having to pay for the feat.

[Rfkannen]

Well first off, 1 way telepathy *without* a feat-tax frees either that or an ASI, which is nice. As class abilities go, it’s not as obviously strong in combat as a pet tentacle but I’ve found it much more useful generally. It also plays into the GOOlocks other strength which is expanded spell list with mental manipulation being emphasised. A combination of GOOlock, telepathy, detect thoughts and disguise self as an invocation is an incredibly versatile information gatherer. Add to that being a charisma caster to make persuasion/deception easier, and you have an excellent party face who can be smiling and chatting to a guard captain whilst feeding information to the party without anyone being the wiser. You could even take sorcerous metamagic with that feat you saved for subtle spell.

I won’t argue that the 10th level pact gift isn’t situational, or that the 14th level one isn’t disappointing. It’s not the best warlock, but they all suffer compared to hexblade in terms of raw optimisation. But I do think it remains characterful, not egregiously underpowered, and has a niche. Especially with Tasha’s new spells.

Great points!

I'm curious, what spells from tasha's help?

[Dork_Forge]

A feat is not a cheap thing in 5e in general, I wouldn't say that the existance of a telepathic feat invalidates the GOO, you could already be a Ghostwise Halfling.

GOO frees up your race and ASI/feat choice whilst giving you telepathy at first level still.

Entropic Ward is a pretty great defensive ability that recharges on a short rest.

[SpanielBear]

Great points!

I'm curious, what spells from tasha's help?

Mind-sliver is an excellent cantrip. If you aren’t playing a hexblade warlock, chances are you are playing Tome with cantrips for days, so plenty of scope to pick a variety. This spell is a good one to alternate with Eldritch blast, especially if there are other spell-casters in the party who can take advantage of the lowered saves.

Spirit shroud means being danger-close for a warlock, but outside of a white room a lot of fights are going to have you closer to enemies than is optimal. Pairing it with repelling blast on the last bolt also gets you some space, along with the slow effect, and because you are a warlock you will upcast automatically for an additional 2d8. Hex is still a god workhorse spell for an adventuring day, but if the fight is a boss or you anticipate a short rest to recharge, it has its place. (It may also be a question if your DM reads “any attack you make” as including magic attacks.)

Both of those assume that if you are going GOOlock you are going Tome and eldritch blast with your build. Mind sliver is good for any warlock in those circumstances (I’d argue), but Spirit Shroud has nice synergy with goo’s entropic shield if something does get close enough to hit back. Even better if you used to avoid damage the previous turn, and want to lay down a 1d10+cha+2d8 eldritch blast with advantage on the creature that *dared* try to lay a finger on you.

Finally, I’m a fan of the new Summon spells because of how open they are to fluff and design to fit the character casting them. Summon Aberration for a GOOlock seems particularly flavourful.

[LudicSavant]

I won’t argue that the 10th level pact gift isn’t situational, or that the 14th level one isn’t disappointing.

What about their level 6 ability?

Entropic Ward has a high mathematical chance of being "wasted," since it has to be declared before the roll. This is true whether your AC is high or low, because "the enemy hits despite EW" and "the enemy would have missed even if you didn't EW" both count as EW failing to change the outcome.

Math illustrating just how weak Entropic Ward is defensively
Example: AC 15 vs +8 to hit: Enemy hits despite disadvantage 49% of the time, would have missed without it 30% of the time, and Entropic Ward only makes the difference between a hit and a miss 21% of the time (e.g. does nothing 79% of the time)

Example2: AC 15 vs +4 to hit: Enemy hits despite disadvantage 25% of the time, would have missed anyways 50% of the time, and Entropic Ward only makes the difference 25% of the time (e.g. does nothing 75% of the time)

Example3: AC 15 vs +12 to hit: Enemy hits despite disadvantage 81% of the time, would have missed anyways 10% of the time, and Entropic Ward only makes the difference 9% of the time (e.g. does nothing 91% of the time).

Add in the fact that it only works against a single attack roll and it's barely making a blip.


With tasha's we now have 1) a feat that gives you one way telepathy and 2) the fathomless warlock, which is also sort of great old one themed.

There's also Kalashtar having 2-way, language-barrier-overcoming telepathy (and Advantage on all Wisdom saves, and Resistance to Psychic damage).

[SpanielBear]

What about their level 6 ability?

Entropic Ward has a high mathematical chance of being "wasted," since it has to be declared before the roll. This is true whether your AC is high or low, because "the enemy hits despite EW" and "the enemy would have missed even if you didn't EW" both count as EW failing to change the outcome.

Math illustrating just how weak Entropic Ward is defensively
Example: AC 15 vs +8 to hit: Enemy hits despite disadvantage 49% of the time, would have missed without it 30% of the time, and Entropic Ward only makes the difference between a hit and a miss 21% of the time (e.g. does nothing 79% of the time)

Example2: AC 15 vs +4 to hit: Enemy hits despite disadvantage 25% of the time, would have missed anyways 50% of the time, and Entropic Ward only makes the difference 25% of the time (e.g. does nothing 75% of the time)

Example3: AC 15 vs +12 to hit: Enemy hits despite disadvantage 81% of the time, would have missed anyways 10% of the time, and Entropic Ward only makes the difference 9% of the time (e.g. does nothing 91% of the time).

Add in the fact that it only works against a single attack roll and it's barely making a blip.

Well, it’s a reaction so it’s not competing with too much in terms of action economy except Counterspell, if you have it. In terms of resource expenditure it’s not a spell, and recharges on short and long rest. It gives advantage if it procs as well.

Look, it’s not great. GOOlock isn’t great. But it isn’t *dire*. And I would say it’s fun.

Except for create Thrall, that’s... just, talk to your DM okay? I’ll defend a lot, but not that p.o.s.

[LudicSavant]

A combination of GOOlock, telepathy, detect thoughts and disguise self as an invocation is an incredibly versatile information gatherer.

It is perhaps worth noting that a non-GOO Warlock with the Telepathic feat would not only have telepathy, detect thoughts, and disguise self as an invocation... they'd also have a superior, better-than-Subtle Spell version of Detect Thoughts, and an extra slot for casting it. And possibly utility abilities from their own subclass that would also contribute to being a versatile information gatherer (for example, a Fiendlock's ability to boost ability checks, after seeing the roll).

Yes, they took Telepathic instead of another feat, but it's a solid Cha-boosting half-feat that gives us better-than-Subtle Detect Thoughts. 1-way telepathy is but one of its bullet points, and IMHO not the most important one (Cha bump > Subtle Detect > 1-way telepathy, IMHO).


Well, it’s a reaction so it’s not competing with too much in terms of action economy except Counterspell, if you have it. In terms of resource expenditure it’s not a spell, and recharges on short and long rest. It gives advantage if it procs as well.

Look, it’s not great. GOOlock isn’t great. But it isn’t *dire*. And I would say it’s fun.

Except for create Thrall, that’s... just, talk to your DM okay? I’ll defend a lot, but not that p.o.s.

The trouble is that other subclasses offer better abilities at 6. If that's also true at 10... and 14... and 1... then that indeed makes for a prognosis of "it's not great," like you said. I think they could use a bit of a boost.

[Greywander]

I've considered doing a homebrew rewrite of the GOOlock, keeping the 1st level feature but replacing most or all of the later features. One feature in particular I was considering was something I remember reading in one of Lovecraft's works: the ability to teleport by walking into a corner at the right angle. This could be both a short range teleport similar to Shadow Step, allowing you to essentially teleport from one corner of a room to another, as well as a long range teleport more in the vein of Transport via Plants, allowing you to bring your whole party over long distances, either by spending a spell slot or just making it once per long rest. This could come with the catch that each teleportation causes psychic damage to reflect the alien nature of what is essentially a dimensional noclip or wrongwarp.

I'd probably also include an option to make Mind Sliver a viable alternative to EB, though I'm not sure what that would be.

I might need to review Lovecraft's works for inspiration.

[Jerrykhor]

GOO locks are definitely weak for a combat heavy campaign. I'd rank them about 1 tier above Undying Warlock. Which is still bad, but not utter garbage.

Awakened Mind feels like a ribbon now, it should come with another combat ability.

Entropic Ward looks fine, but its actually a bit weak when compared to what other warlocks get.

Thought Shield is very niche and doesnt really help. Most psychic damage come with some kind of rider as well, for example Mind Flayer can stun you. Which you would most likely fail. They are also just as susceptible to Dominate Person, Charm effects and other mind control effects as anyone. You know, stuff that people who can deal psychic damage can also do. Its not a shield, its a bubble.

Create Thrall. Make a friend, for long term. You have permanent Discord with him. Yay?