Party of three for Icewind Dale - Rime of the Frostmaiden

[torrmh]

Hey guys :smallsmile:

I'm starting a new Frostmaiden campaign with some old friends. We will be 3 regular players, and I'm looking for some ideas.

The other two players have indicated the following:

Player 1: A dwarven cleric, subclass yet to be determined, but likely something at least a bit tanky (probably full plate and shield)

Player 2: An elf (sub race not determined) bard, subclass yet to be determined.

We are rolling for stats, (4d6 drop lowest) and I rolled some amazing stats:

18
15
15
14
13
13

What build would be an ideal addition to these two?

I know it's difficult to say before the other two subclasses are determined, so maybe you guys have some ideas about which subclasses they should pick as well.

We use PHB, Tasha's, XGtE and probably SCAG too if necessary.

I was thinking about a bladesinger, but I would love to hear what you guys think :smallsmile:

[Corran]

Well, you've definitely got healing covered, and crowd control is decent (depending on how much the bard would have to commit their concentration on something else), so let's look at what else is missing.

You are lacking in single target damage, as neither the cleric nor the bard usually excel in it. So you need to pick something that will allow you both melee and ranged single target damage. You'll need to be good at one of them and at least decent at the other. If possible you want some nova potential in there too.

As far as AoE damage goes, the cleric could deal with close range AoE with spirit guardians from level 5 onwards, assuming they boost their concentration (especially if you end up playing something that does not tank). Inspiration from the bard will help them a bit, but they are still going to need at least one (more likely two though) concentration boosting feat to say that spirit guardians covers you for close range AoE. Long range AoE is lacking though, so unless the bard chooses lore college and goes with something like a fireball at level 6, I'd say that ideally you should cover long range AoE too.

Let's look at survivability. The bard is going to be squishy most likely. Even with something like the moderately armored feat, a dip for armor proficiency, or a college that grants armor proficiency, bards are not ideal tanks. And moreover, you dont want your spellcasters to do much of the tanking, cause that endangers their concentration and that's a no-no. Same with the cleric. Cleric can do some tanking thanks to a good AC, assuming they boost their concentration, but ideally you dont want the cleric to draw all the fire, cause at some point concentration will be broken that way. So. You need one of a few things. Find a way to buff the cleric and turn them into a lobster and to make the bard (and maybe yourself too, depending on your build) less accessible and thus let the cleric to do all the tanking. Or play a main tank that ideally can buff the cleric and also help keep safe the bard. Or lastly, and this is probably the best scenario, play someone who can spam summons that will take pressure of all your allies and yourself (and the nice thing is that sirit guardians does not messes with summons too much). If you go the summoner route, I think you'll have to go all in. Meaning, that although some side summoning is nothing to scoff at, I dont think it will solve your targeting issue if you dont invest sufficiently in it. And on the other hand, I think that going all in on the summoner means that you cannot cover single target damage at the very least. At least as far as I know. Maybe the bard could cover for summoning assuming lore college, though suddenly we end up relying too much on a character for which we dont even know the choice of subclass.

I want to say druid, either moon or shepard. Most likely moon (in which case go for warcaster and resilient con asap), cause shepard creates an imbalance regarding how many squishies you've got vs how many tanky characters you've got, and that requires some careful decisions during play. So if you gravitate towards druid, I'd say it depends on how risky you want to be. The idea is to spam summons once you get access to conjure animals and after that, you want to drag out combat (summons and being a moon druid would help with this) and let spirit guardians (and your summons secondarily) do all the work. Lacking in single target sustained damage wont be much of a problem as long as you avoid archery contests (though you would still need one of your allies to have some nova potential just in case), but you will still need the bard to pick some decent AoE before not too long. The first 4 levels, that is before you get access to spirit guardians and conjure animals, could be tricky for your allies, but being a moon druid will help here, since they are pretty strong at levels 2-4. Just make sure your allies make it till level 5 (inspiring leader is a good pick for a bard, especially if the adventure is deadly early on), because as long as you handle your wild shapes carefully you wont have much of a problem (haven't played the adventure, so take this last thing with a grain of salt).

There are definitely better suggestions, but (moon) druid (with your group filling in some small gaps) is the first thing that comes to mind. If multiclassing is allowed and you aare willing to do it, that opens up more possibilities.

[Keravath]

I would tend to lean toward paladin, paladin+warlock or paladin+sorcerer. Both the cleric and bard are full casters already. The stats you have help overcome the biggest weakness of a paladin which is their need for multiple high stats. The auras would also help out your party on the front line.

A bladesinger would be fun too mind you but much squishier - though your stats again help here since you could start with a high con. Bladesinger+some rogue levels could fill the rogue and wizard roles.

Anyway, mostly depends on what kind of character you want to play.

[MrStabby]

Well a paladin is nice.

But you might want a scout so a rogue or a ranger could be good...

So maybe a multiclass paladin ranger given the stats?

Take paladin to 6 (Vengence is good as you would be party's main damage dealer), then ranger (probably gloomstalker) to 3. You should be able to have some prodigiously powerful turns and be pretty flexible as well.

[stoutstien]

A battlesmith could act like a Swiss army knife, filling needs as they present themselves.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

There was a thread on here a while ago from someone playing a ranger who was killing it in that mod. Seems like it would cover some single target damage as well as be strong at exploration. I played a Gloomstalker to 9th, then took Rogue and Fighter levels, which worked well.

[Avonar]

Thematically, you can't go wrong with Goliath Rune Knight for this setting.

[torrmh]

Thanks for great suggestions so far guys :smallsmile:

Multiclassing is allowed, and I usually tend to do that for most of my characters.

There's been a slight change - the guy who was playing the bard now suddenly wants to play a human bearbarian instead, starting as barb and then going for moon druid 2 at lvl 3.

Thats' the tank sorted I think, hehe... Now that we've got both a somewhat tanky cleric and the bearbarian, it probably opens up a few more squishy options I guess.

I was thinking about a paladin but I already played a sorcadin to lvl 19 last year (and it was a blast, toughest/strongest character I think I ever played, nearly impossible to kill), so I think I want to try something else for this one.

Shepherd druid also crossed my mind, but now that this other player went down the druid route, at least partially, I think I should maybe look for something different from that as well.

The rune knight is definitely a fitting option here, but I'll probably be stepping on the bearbarian's toes a bit?

Gloomstalker too sounds like fun, seems like we could use a stealthy character who can do some scouting, but I guess the bearbarian could partly fill that role with summoning familiar or turning into some other creature himself.

Are the face skills important in this setting? Seems to me they could be less important here, but I may be wrong (no big spoilers please :smallbiggrin: )

Did anyone try out the swarmkeeper / dao genie combo with spiked growth and repelling blast in play yet? I've been thinking about that one and it seems like a lot of fun, but not sure how often I'll be able to pull off that combo like I want and not make it difficult for the other players (though it seems like a great combo with Spirit Guardians!)

[Unoriginal]

With stats like that and the other PCs, I would consider Monk.

[Keravath]

Another option would be a X lore bard/ 2 hexblade warlock. It provides skills/social, has good single target damage through agonizing blast, start variant human for resilient con as a feat, armor and weapon proficiencies from hexblade make you much less squishy. Hexblade also comes with the shield spell.

Pick up fireball and counterspell as 6th level bard magical secrets (or something else but those are generally really good choices). The hardest level will be character level 6. bard 3/ warlock 2 by level 5 is good though. By level 7 the character has 3rd level spells and everything is pretty good after that. Perhaps take devils sight as the second invocation to let your character see in the dark. Get proficiency with thieves tools from your background and you will be able to do most of the role of a rogue as well.

RotFM is dark ... so your human barbarian party member might have to carry a torch everywhere making the party very noticeable.

P.S. For a small party, the extra bodies provided by a shepherd druid can be very effective too - so probably worth considering depending on how your DM likes to deal with summoned creatures.

[torrmh]

Love the lore bard/hexblade option too, it's a blast to play! Weirdly enough I am playing exactly that build in the other campaign I'm playing right now :smalltongue:

EDIT: It's similar even down to the invocations and the counterspell / fireball selection, haha :)

Monk was mentioned, which I didn't expect... Any particular subclass in mind for that one?

[Emongnome777]

There's been a slight change - the guy who was playing the bard now suddenly wants to play a human bearbarian instead, starting as barb and then going for moon druid 2 at lvl 3.

Aww nuts, I was going to mention a goliath barbarian (Ancestral Guardian) as a good fit.

Hmm, you are lacking social, as mentioned. Any Charisma caster fits the bill well enough. You mentioned already playing a bard, so that would've been my next suggestion.

It's not "social", but I'm thinking straight wizard, a more blast-y one, like evoker. Bladesinger, abjurer, diviner, perhaps. Necromancy to add warm cold bodies to the combat maps :smallwink:.

Someone else mentioned artificer, that's another good one. I'd lean artillerist for that party, just seems like a better fit. In any event, sounds like it'll be fun!

[Unoriginal]

Monk was mentioned, which I didn't expect... Any particular subclass in mind for that one?

Mmmh... Four Element Monks could be nice for adding some AoEs to your party and for being someone who can always make fire, and it got a nice boost with the Tasha's.

[AvalancheSpring]

Anything with at least one of the following would be helpful:

- Ranged Single Target Damage
- Ranged AOE Damage
- Debuff and Crowd Control
- Social Skills
- Other Skills (maybe your allies are lacking knowledge skills?)

If you don't mind going double-cleric, Trickery, Light, Tempest, Knowledge all fit different sets of these niches.
Any Charisma based caster.
A ranged rogue with some charisma skills.
Any Wizard (in a small party, the insane durability of a War Mage can pay off big time).

Alternative you could go Paladin, but your group will be really weak at range. You'll need to invest in mobility and eventually flight.

[Corran]

Multiclassing is allowed, and I usually tend to do that for most of my characters.

There's been a slight change - the guy who was playing the bard now suddenly wants to play a human bearbarian instead, starting as barb and then going for moon druid 2 at lvl 3.
Well, if you haven't played a sorlock till now and you wanted to try it, now is a good time to do that. It will fill nicely the gap of ranged damage (both sustained and nova). I also think that the twinned metamagic will do nicely in a party of three. As far as buffing goes, anything that restores hp and cheap AC boosts will be gold for the bearbarian, and anything that gives a good boost to the AC and/or makes it easier to avoid being targeted will be gold for you and the cleric. So spells like mage armor (for the druid), shield of faith -> greater invisibility (for the cleric and even you if needed), heroism (for the druid and for the cleric if needed; assuming divine soul) are examples of what could work nicely in this set up, and twinning them when necessary will allow you to squeeze every bit of value you can possibly get out of them. Divine soul is the obvious pick, cause despite having a cleric you still want access to some cleric spells yourself (because some of them you'll be able to twinn while the cleric cannot twin them and the cleric is going to be concentrating on SG most of the time anyway; and besides, who's going to yoyo heal the cleric who is the most likely to drop unconscious during fights since you can keep your distance and since the bearbarian has a ton of hp and cannot cast anyway while wildshaped? You of course, so you need healing word). Though shadow is also worth considering since it boosts your range firepower in darkness (ie night time, dungeons), and since you can get some synergy later on out of using a darkness spell that does not hinder you or the moon druid who can use forms with blindsight). Hmm, the hound could be useful for example if wanting to do a twinned polymorph (one instance to polymorph the cleric who is in trouble, the second instance to polymorph a dangerous enemy at the same time), and generally for adding some debuffing oomph that you will otherwise lack a little as a team. Both are good options.

Goblin is the ideal race IMO, as you want to keep yourself away from enemies (you want to force them to attack the moon druid and secondarily the cleric, both of whom you can also buff as needed). Good synergy with stuff like greater invisibility which you can already use it to good effect for buffing the cleric, and with spells like counterspell (counterspell something like hidden, or conversly, hide to get in a better position for guaranteed counterspelling). The haxblade dip adds some necessary extra ranged damage but also armor, in case you need to help distribute incoming damage more evenly among your allies (also, to make you less of a liability at the same time). It works without the hexblade levels, especially if you go with something like a goblin for your race, which makes the armor proficiency less obligatory, but ultimately, these two warlock levels will certainly help in the long run (repelling blast for control too, forgot about that; once you get your second warlock level, grab one or two spells that create harmful areas).

Other than that, pick counterspell and fireball to fill some gaps, grab a social skill or two, same with spells (eg disguise self) if you have the room for them, and select a background with thieves' tools.

Well, all that assuming you haven't tried a sorlock already (from what I understand they can get boring pretty quick) or at least played a sorcerer recently. Not that these would be the only good options, plenty of good suggestions so far.

[torrmh]

Aww nuts, I was going to mention a goliath barbarian (Ancestral Guardian) as a good fit.

Hmm, you are lacking social, as mentioned. Any Charisma caster fits the bill well enough. You mentioned already playing a bard, so that would've been my next suggestion.

It's not "social", but I'm thinking straight wizard, a more blast-y one, like evoker. Bladesinger, abjurer, diviner, perhaps. Necromancy to add warm cold bodies to the combat maps :smallwink:.

Someone else mentioned artificer, that's another good one. I'd lean artillerist for that party, just seems like a better fit. In any event, sounds like it'll be fun!


Yeah, definitely considering evoker, abjurer and bladesinger for this!

Never played an artificer before, maybe I'll need to look a bit more into that one.

Yep, really looking forward to this one :smallsmile:

[torrmh]

Mmmh... Four Element Monks could be nice for adding some AoEs to your party and for being someone who can always make fire, and it got a nice boost with the Tasha's.

Definitely looking into this one, haven't played a monk in ages! But I kind of had the impression they were quite lacklustre at higher levels. How did Tasha affect this one?



Anything with at least one of the following would be helpful:

- Ranged Single Target Damage
- Ranged AOE Damage
- Debuff and Crowd Control
- Social Skills
- Other Skills (maybe your allies are lacking knowledge skills?)

If you don't mind going double-cleric, Trickery, Light, Tempest, Knowledge all fit different sets of these niches.
Any Charisma based caster.
A ranged rogue with some charisma skills.
Any Wizard (in a small party, the insane durability of a War Mage can pay off big time).

Alternative you could go Paladin, but your group will be really weak at range. You'll need to invest in mobility and eventually flight.

Great summary, will keeping this handy when evaluating the different options.

You make some good points about skills too. The cleric will probably only have 4 skills, while the bearbarian will have 5. Not much room for knowledge skills there, but maybe I can get them to cover nature and religion.



Well, if you haven't played a sorlock till now and you wanted to try it, now is a good time to do that. It will fill nicely the gap of ranged damage (both sustained and nova). I also think that the twinned metamagic will do nicely in a party of three. As far as buffing goes, anything that restores hp and cheap AC boosts will be gold for the bearbarian, and anything that gives a good boost to the AC and/or makes it easier to avoid being targeted will be gold for you and the cleric. So spells like mage armor (for the druid), shield of faith -> greater invisibility (for the cleric and even you if needed), heroism (for the druid and for the cleric if needed; assuming divine soul) are examples of what could work nicely in this set up, and twinning them when necessary will allow you to squeeze every bit of value you can possibly get out of them. Divine soul is the obvious pick, cause despite having a cleric you still want access to some cleric spells yourself (because some of them you'll be able to twinn while the cleric cannot twin them and the cleric is going to be concentrating on SG most of the time anyway; and besides, who's going to yoyo heal the cleric who is the most likely to drop unconscious during fights since you can keep your distance and since the bearbarian has a ton of hp and cannot cast anyway while wildshaped? You of course, so you need healing word). Though shadow is also worth considering since it boosts your range firepower in darkness (ie night time, dungeons), and since you can get some synergy later on out of using a darkness spell that does not hinder you or the moon druid who can use forms with blindsight). Hmm, the hound could be useful for example if wanting to do a twinned polymorph (one instance to polymorph the cleric who is in trouble, the second instance to polymorph a dangerous enemy at the same time), and generally for adding some debuffing oomph that you will otherwise lack a little as a team. Both are good options.

Goblin is the ideal race IMO, as you want to keep yourself away from enemies (you want to force them to attack the moon druid and secondarily the cleric, both of whom you can also buff as needed). Good synergy with stuff like greater invisibility which you can already use it to good effect for buffing the cleric, and with spells like counterspell (counterspell something like hidden, or conversly, hide to get in a better position for guaranteed counterspelling). The haxblade dip adds some necessary extra ranged damage but also armor, in case you need to help distribute incoming damage more evenly among your allies (also, to make you less of a liability at the same time). It works without the hexblade levels, especially if you go with something like a goblin for your race, which makes the armor proficiency less obligatory, but ultimately, these two warlock levels will certainly help in the long run (repelling blast for control too, forgot about that; once you get your second warlock level, grab one or two spells that create harmful areas).

Other than that, pick counterspell and fireball to fill some gaps, grab a social skill or two, same with spells (eg disguise self) if you have the room for them, and select a background with thieves' tools.

Well, all that assuming you haven't tried a sorlock already (from what I understand they can get boring pretty quick) or at least played a sorcerer recently. Not that these would be the only good options, plenty of good suggestions so far.

This is a really good suggestion too! I played a sorlock once before through Curse of Strahd, but it was in a 3 man party with no tank, so I was put on the front lines because I had the highest AC, which took away most of its effectiveness. (Really regret not playing sorcadin instead for that one :smallbiggrin: ) The sorcadin I played last year though was also a Divine Soul (Hex 1/Ancients7/Divine Soul 11), so maybe it will feel a bit similar?

Anyway, looks like the list is narrowing down to some kind of wizard (thinking about abjurer, bladesinger, evoker or war wizard mainly), or a multiclassed sorcerer. The probability of a warlock dip is pretty high I guess, so I could be looking at a nuclear wizard or a sorlock as you mentioned, Corran.

You also mention spells that create harmful areas when discussing the warlock - I was thinking about a swarmkeeper/dao combo with spiked growth, repelling blast and telekinetic feat, and maybe going sorcerer after warlock 3/ranger 3. Sounds fun - but maybe investing three levels into ranger for it is too much? Not sure how effective it will be in real play either, but on paper it looks like the damage could be quite devastating, at least for single targets.

[Corran]

This is a really good suggestion too! I played a sorlock once before through Curse of Strahd, but it was in a 3 man party with no tank, so I was put on the front lines because I had the highest AC, which took away most of its effectiveness. (Really regret not playing sorcadin instead for that one :smallbiggrin: ) The sorcadin I played last year though was also a Divine Soul (Hex 1/Ancients7/Divine Soul 11), so maybe it will feel a bit similar?
I doubt it will feel similar to the sorcadin you played, but it might feel similar to the sorlock you played, even if that sorlock had been utilized mostly as a tank. I mean, if you get at a high enough level to pull off repelling blast + web/wall of fire/ etc things, and you hadn't done this before, then it might not feel all that similar. Then there's the resource management side of things, with slots going into sp to quicken EBs and all that. This is big part of the experience when playing a (mid level and higher I'd say) sorlock, so if you haven't done that before because you played as a tank and thus you dint have many opportunities to fullfil your ranged dpr/nova role, then a sorlock might feel like playing something completelly new. But only you can answer these questions. If in doubt, I'd choose to go with something else. Plenty of options to choose from anyway, no point to risk playing something that might end up being boring because you played it before.


Anyway, looks like the list is narrowing down to some kind of wizard (thinking about abjurer, bladesinger, evoker or war wizard mainly), or a multiclassed sorcerer. The probability of a warlock dip is pretty high I guess, so I could be looking at a nuclear wizard or a sorlock as you mentioned, Corran.
Well, all of these (wizard) subclasses have something nice to offer. I am not sure about war wizard. It gives some nice boosts to self, mainly thinking about the one on saves, but I am not sold on it at first glance. Is there any particular reason you were thinking of war wizard btw?

The abjurer's ward will play very nicely with the bearbarian, though if the cleric is not dodging enough, you will probably find using it more on the cleric I'd suspect. Not that this is a bad thing. Your weaker (effective hp wise) frontliner will need all the help they can get, particularly if they dont dodge enough to raise their effective hp close to the levels of the bearbarian. You just may miss on the rage + hp synergy if the cleric does not play safely enough, but on the other hand that's when the extra hp from the ward will be most important anyway. So yeah, I can see the value of abjuration here.

Bladesinger will be semi redundant if you dip to something that gives you armor (hexblade makes a good case for both the abjurer and the evoker; quick ward hp replenishment and boost to magic missile respectively), but if you dont dip, then bladesinger is a pretty good pick (makes you a pseudotank so you can be less of a liability for your team that lacks hard control, also allowing you to take some hits if you have to take some pressure off of them).

Evoker (and particularly hexvoker, early on for the armor, later on for magic missiles) is a great fit too. All of the wizard picks will leave something to be desired as far as ranged damage is concerned, but the evoker definitely helps fill that gap (though be mindful of your resources if you cannot get your hands on some wands of magic missile; resource management definitely seems like a challenge to me for that one, but then again I haven't played this build yet). The ally-friendly AoE's will help, and they will help a lot if you find a way to make yourself less of a target, so that the melee enemies can bunch up nicely around your allies (cause remember, sculpt spells allows you not to affect your allies, but you cannot make yourself immune, thus you dont want enemies following you around, but instead you want them to cluster around your allies). There is some anti-synergy bwteen stuff like (sculpt) fireball, spirit guardians and (sculpt) sickening radiance, but only a little. I guess you could say that they are complementary though, since they can act as a back up when the cleric loses concentration on spirit guardians against swarmed enemies (or when the cleric needs to concentrate on something else; I hear their spell list has spells other than SG). Eh. There was an old post by MaxWilson, talking about how well a goblin hexvoker could combine with a moon druid in a small party (in a party of two if I remember correctly) for the application of sickening radiance in particular, which I'll try to find (though IIRC it didn't give any details, then again the synergies are kind of obvious, cast SR, hide, and let the druid tank everything inside SR's radius). Not sure how well this will go with a cleric in the group, and I dont think you can rely all that much on that against enemies that overpower you in ranged damage (which your group does not have in abundance), but yeah, something to keep in mind too I guess if you go for an evoker. Careful thouh with evocation if any of your allies plan on spamming minions (which is never a bad plan). Enough of them may make it hard for you to throw AoE's, even with sculpt spells backing you.

In general, there are some good synergies you can pull off as a wizard, once your druid gets access to elemental forms. Throw some restraining effects when the druid uses a fire/water/air form, throw down something like a wall of fire when the druid is using a fire form, throw down a poisonous effect or a vision blocker when the druid is using an earth form. Stuff like that. The cleric may be able to synergize if the right spell is backing them (so freedom of movement for something like web + air/water form from the druid, or protection from poison + dwarven resistance + earth form from the druid + poisonous effect, etc). Though with the barbarian dip and thus delayed access to elemental forms, it will be a while before you can try any of these to their full effect).

Saves will be somewhat of an issue now that there is no bard. Especially the barbarian's saves. The cleric has some toys to help protect the barbarian against effects like restraining and paralysis, poison and fear, though some of them take up cpncentration and some of them can only be applied after the fact. But then again both your and more importantly the cleric are also somewhat vulnerable to such effects. A paladin could help with saves, but then you are missing all the ranged damage in the world and you are missing on control too. A bard could also help (and in a small party you could even afford a college that has additional uses for bardic inspiration), but then again you probably want to dip for range damage and armor (no point sacrificing your college to get it since you'd also want to dip for ranged damage anyway). Just make sure to suggest to your allies (it wont be convenient for the druid to use while already wildshaped, but if the cleric gets hit with a bad condition, someone might have to do something about it) to prepare spells like restoration, freedom of movement, heroism, protection from poison and the like.


You also mention spells that create harmful areas when discussing the warlock - I was thinking about a swarmkeeper/dao combo with spiked growth, repelling blast and telekinetic feat, and maybe going sorcerer after warlock 3/ranger 3. Sounds fun - but maybe investing three levels into ranger for it is too much? Not sure how effective it will be in real play either, but on paper it looks like the damage could be quite devastating, at least for single targets.
Not well versed with spike growth shenanigans, but the main idea is to grab someone and drag them around to suffer tons of damage, right? Other than the usual control stuff I mean. If so, check with the druid for wildshaped forms that can grapple/restrain and that have a good speed (also look for speed buffs in someone's spell selection). Other than that, yeah, creating harmful AoE's (wall of fire and Evard's black tentacles -or web, if you can't get Evard's- being my favourites for that) and pushing enemies into them with repelling blasts works great, though with action economy not being on your side you should be a little more cautious when employing such tactics. Haven't ever given much thought about the ranger/warlock build you are mentioning, but adding a 3rd class in there after a 3/3 split does not sound like a great idea in general.


In general, what IMO you should try to do is this.
1) Try to aim for good ranged damage cause your party lacks in that. If you can make yourself mobile enough, there is less need for control as far as melee enemies are concerned. They'll just cluster around your melee allies (though do buy yourself some cheap AC just in case you need to get in there and help distribute incoming damage a bit more evenly, or when you just cannot escape from enemies). Ranged enemies are always a problem, so you counter them somewhat with your own ranged damage (single target and AoE), but you can also counter them with vision blockers when the terrain is not favourable (so aim at a few vision blovkers as well, so stuff like fog cloud, darkness, wall of fire, and the like).
2)Try to find a way for enemies to aim at your bearbarian whom your cleric can heal to great effect. This may mean a combination of many different things and it might need the contribution of everyone. So for example it may mean that you have to stay at range and that the cleric should be dodging/buffed so that they become a very unappealing target. Or it could mean a different combination of things.
3) A bearbarian can withstand a lot, and sirit guardians is an effective slow but mass hp burner, but things may go wrong sometimes. So try to aim for backups when such tactics fail (eg aim for abilities with more upfront value when you need them, so stuff like fireball and hypnotic pattern; ideally with a way to make them party friendly). Also, you need to cover for ranged AoE (same you are doing for ranged damage).
4) Saves are a somewhat weak point. Your party has access to some prevention and to some recovery when it comes to effects that target saves. If you cannot build into that (having hard time justifying a bard dip), at the very least try to make sure your two allies are well equiped for that eventuality (they have such tools in their spell list).
5) Lastly, try to build on whatever little synergy you can create with your allies (eg elemental forms and spellcasting, or creating danger zones and pushing people inside with repelling blasts or by letting the druid grapple stuff and move them around, put mage armor on druid forms, etc).
6) Be at the very least decent at scouting, cause your druid wont have forms to spare for it if it's not overly important. So anything you can grab cheaply, such as things like skill or tool proficiencies (or even low level spells that help with scouting, such as find familiar and invisibility), I'd say that you should grab them. Same with escape options, although here you dont have to go with just the cheap options (aim for all the way up to dimension door if you have that chance). Darkvision and no stealth disadvantage go without saying of course.

[Keravath]

Another good choice might be Aberrant Mind sorcerer from Tasha's with two levels of Hexblade Warlock. Should cover most of the bases :). You could go all in on psionics from a role play perspective and refluff the hexblade patron as a group mind or something similar from which you draw additional abilities (DM permitting).

Decent choices of metamagic could be Quicken, Twin and Transmute. The Transmute one is cool because by taking fireball and scorching ray you can do any of 6 or so damage types for only 1 sorcery point.

[AvalancheSpring]

Well, all of these (wizard) subclasses have something nice to offer. I am not sure about war wizard. It gives some nice boosts to self, mainly thinking about the one on saves, but I am not sold on it at first glance. Is there any particular reason you were thinking of war wizard btw?

I know I recommended they consider war wizard specifically because it is a 3-person party. You cant afford to have 1/3 of the team disabled, or to lose concentration on a key wizard spell with so few pieces on the board, and you have fewer team mates to bail you out. War Wizard has insanely good saving throws. The AC options are nice, the damage options are terrible. But the saves are a lifesaver

The combination of War Mage and (War Caster *or* Reslient Con) and mobility Spells means you may never need a tactical rescue and you may fail only 1-2 concentration saves over a full campaign. The smaller the group, the more I personally value reliability.

That said, there are great possibilities with Evoker, Abjurer, Scribes, Diviner, Conjurer. I don't think OP would regret any of these.
EDIT: Chronurgy would also be great, but not every DM will allow that.

[Eldariel]

Any kind of Wizard is obviously ideal, though Druid is also good. With those stats you could easily afford to fight while at it if need be. And you can start with 20 Int easily enough. Though OTOH Diviner or Chronurgist or something could also be sweet...but those can fight in the right build too. Mountain Dwarf or Hobgoblin or such are solid races to this end. Of course Vuman or Custom Lineage is also good and you could triple up on healing with Jorasco Halfling.

If I were making a fighty Wizard I'd probably skip on the sweet 20 Int and instead go like 18 Dex/18 Int with a draw for Res: Con on 4 instead (via. Custom Lineage). Though 16 Dex/15 Con/20 Int with like Elf/Hobgoblin would indeed be amazing too; just roll with Res: Con on 4 and then you're set and free to pick up Alert and Lucky and such from there. Indeed, this would also combine with potential Moderately Armored or just going like Mountain Dwarf or whatever. Mountain Dwarf with 15 Str/14 Dex/17 Con/20 Int/whatever is pretty amazingly positioned for becoming a tanky frontline type. You could pick up Res: Con and it wouldn't even really be wrong to take Moderately Armored for Shield (you could trade your default Medium Armor Prof for another martial weapon). Hell, it's technically possible to just roll with 17/14/17/18 and use Moderately Armored and Res: Con to make that 14/18/18/18 at which point you're pretty well setup to be a Bladesinger (and you have racial proficiencies up the wazoo so you can have Hand Crossbow and Heavy Crossbow and Longbow and Rapier and Whip). This means you're hard to put down even when not bladesinging and when you intend to bladesing, just go around without your shield and laugh at puny enemies' puny attempts to hit you. Hell, go Xbow Expert + Sharpshooter and you can get by pretty well as a ranged fighter (you can potentially postpone Res: Con with Bladesong's bonus to Con saves).


Though with your new supertanky frontline, just plain Diviner or Chronurgist or Lore Bard seems like just what the doctor ordered. 20 starting Int is no joke for a CC Wizard, especially coupled with someone debuffing enemy saves like Chronurgist or Diviner (or 20 Cha Eloquence Bard but Wizard list has better AOE CC which is what you want here). Throw around Webs and Hypnotic Patterns and Watery Spheres and your enemies will largely be unable to do anything since you have like DC 15 save DC on your level 3 Web already. And since you can start with 17 Con and go Res: Con, you'll be able to reach +7 Con saves by level 5 which is great (level 13 is when you reach "untouchability"). Mountain Dwarf seems great for this too with your particular set of stats, letting you get armor and max Con/Int and some nice proficiencies while at it.

With these stats, Custom Lineage completely beats out Vuman: you get to start out with 20 Int and 16 Con with Res: Con and then you can raise your Dex to 16 if you want to improve your AC or focus on utility feats like Alert and Lucky instead (and eventually potentially Magic Jar some body).

[J-H]

Be sure to remind your DM that ROTF is designed for AL play and "assumes" that there will be loot given out according to session progression. If your DM doesn't know that, you basically won't get much in the way of magical items, according to what I've read.

[x3n0n]

Definitely looking into this one, haven't played a monk in ages! But I kind of had the impression they were quite lacklustre at higher levels. How did Tasha affect this one?


The interesting Tasha bump for Elemonk is Ki-Fueled Attack (in combination with Dedicated Weapon). Every time you spend ki on your action, you can make an attack with a monk weapon (or an unarmed strike) as a bonus action. So you can take Shortbow or Light Crossbow as your dedicated weapon, and follow up your "spell" with a ranged attack.

Elemonk has its biggest power spike at 11th level, where you can choose Fireball and get multiple of them per short rest (plus availability of Fly).
(Before then, you can take Thunderwave or Burning Hands for AoE at low levels, and Shatter for a ranged AoE at 6th level.)

IMO, the other Monks that benefit the most from Ki-Fueled Attack are Shadow (cast and attack in the same turn) and Kensei (stun/Focused Aim/Deft Strike and follow up with kensei bonus action).

It depends a bit what you mean by higher levels. Diamond Soul at Monk 14 is a game-changer, as is Empty Body at Monk 18.

If anything, I think the most frustrating part of the progression is in the 2nd-4th level range: you've got ki, but not much of it. The only saving grace here vs other martials is that you've got a free bonus action attack without spending ki. IMO, the easiest way to "smooth" this part of the progression is to take V.Human Mobile for free "Disengage".

For mostly-tier-2 play, Way of the Astral Self is really nice because you can focus on having a great Wis for both attacking and stunning instead of worrying about balancing Dex and Wis. (In tier 3, you need to go back to Dex if you want your AC and ranged attacks to continue to improve.)

BTW, if you're not getting magical loot, Kensei is REALLY nice; their chosen weapons count as magical anyway starting at 6, and you can turn a vanilla weapon into an (up to) +3 weapon for an encounter via Sharpen the Blade.

[Garimeth]

Thematically, you can't go wrong with Goliath Rune Knight for this setting.

This, outlander background. So much this.

Otherwise I second paladin.

EDIT: This is why you refresh before responding. I did not refresh since yesterday, and did not see the comp change.

[torrmh]

Thanks for all the input so far guys :smallbiggrin:




Not well versed with spike growth shenanigans, but the main idea is to grab someone and drag them around to suffer tons of damage, right? Other than the usual control stuff I mean. If so, check with the druid for wildshaped forms that can grapple/restrain and that have a good speed (also look for speed buffs in someone's spell selection). Other than that, yeah, creating harmful AoE's (wall of fire and Evard's black tentacles -or web, if you can't get Evard's- being my favourites for that) and pushing enemies into them with repelling blasts works great, though with action economy not being on your side you should be a little more cautious when employing such tactics. Haven't ever given much thought about the ranger/warlock build you are mentioning, but adding a 3rd class in there after a 3/3 split does not sound like a great idea in general.

Yes, or in this case it was actually being able to force the enemy's movement for 20 feet with no save, and potentially 20 more with swarm and telekinetic, for a total of 16d4 extra bludgeoning damage from spiked growth by yourself, and then leaving the enemy hopefully near the edge of the spikes where the druid could pick them up and drag them all around the perimeter :smallbiggrin:


In general, what IMO you should try to do is this.
1) Try to aim for good ranged damage cause your party lacks in that. If you can make yourself mobile enough, there is less need for control as far as melee enemies are concerned. They'll just cluster around your melee allies (though do buy yourself some cheap AC just in case you need to get in there and help distribute incoming damage a bit more evenly, or when you just cannot escape from enemies). Ranged enemies are always a problem, so you counter them somewhat with your own ranged damage (single target and AoE), but you can also counter them with vision blockers when the terrain is not favourable (so aim at a few vision blovkers as well, so stuff like fog cloud, darkness, wall of fire, and the like).
2)Try to find a way for enemies to aim at your bearbarian whom your cleric can heal to great effect. This may mean a combination of many different things and it might need the contribution of everyone. So for example it may mean that you have to stay at range and that the cleric should be dodging/buffed so that they become a very unappealing target. Or it could mean a different combination of things.
3) A bearbarian can withstand a lot, and sirit guardians is an effective slow but mass hp burner, but things may go wrong sometimes. So try to aim for backups when such tactics fail (eg aim for abilities with more upfront value when you need them, so stuff like fireball and hypnotic pattern; ideally with a way to make them party friendly). Also, you need to cover for ranged AoE (same you are doing for ranged damage).
4) Saves are a somewhat weak point. Your party has access to some prevention and to some recovery when it comes to effects that target saves. If you cannot build into that (having hard time justifying a bard dip), at the very least try to make sure your two allies are well equiped for that eventuality (they have such tools in their spell list).
5) Lastly, try to build on whatever little synergy you can create with your allies (eg elemental forms and spellcasting, or creating danger zones and pushing people inside with repelling blasts or by letting the druid grapple stuff and move them around, put mage armor on druid forms, etc).
6) Be at the very least decent at scouting, cause your druid wont have forms to spare for it if it's not overly important. So anything you can grab cheaply, such as things like skill or tool proficiencies (or even low level spells that help with scouting, such as find familiar and invisibility), I'd say that you should grab them. Same with escape options, although here you dont have to go with just the cheap options (aim for all the way up to dimension door if you have that chance). Darkvision and no stealth disadvantage go without saying of course.[/QUOTE]

Great, I'll try to keep this one in mind too for the final decision!


Another good choice might be Aberrant Mind sorcerer from Tasha's with two levels of Hexblade Warlock. Should cover most of the bases :). You could go all in on psionics from a role play perspective and refluff the hexblade patron as a group mind or something similar from which you draw additional abilities (DM permitting).

Decent choices of metamagic could be Quicken, Twin and Transmute. The Transmute one is cool because by taking fireball and scorching ray you can do any of 6 or so damage types for only 1 sorcery point.

Loving this idea from an RP perspective too :) How would you rate Aberrant Mind vs. Clockwork Soul for this? I was thinking the Clockwork could be a guy with huge OCD issues or something, haha :smalltongue:


I know I recommended they consider war wizard specifically because it is a 3-person party. You cant afford to have 1/3 of the team disabled, or to lose concentration on a key wizard spell with so few pieces on the board, and you have fewer team mates to bail you out. War Wizard has insanely good saving throws. The AC options are nice, the damage options are terrible. But the saves are a lifesaver

The combination of War Mage and (War Caster *or* Reslient Con) and mobility Spells means you may never need a tactical rescue and you may fail only 1-2 concentration saves over a full campaign. The smaller the group, the more I personally value reliability.

That said, there are great possibilities with Evoker, Abjurer, Scribes, Diviner, Conjurer. I don't think OP would regret any of these.
EDIT: Chronurgy would also be great, but not every DM will allow that.

Yeah, I think Abjurer, Bladesinger and Evoker are at the front of the Wizard list now- Don't think Chronurgy is an option for this one, but I'll ask the DM.


Any kind of Wizard is obviously ideal, though Druid is also good. With those stats you could easily afford to fight while at it if need be. And you can start with 20 Int easily enough. Though OTOH Diviner or Chronurgist or something could also be sweet...but those can fight in the right build too. Mountain Dwarf or Hobgoblin or such are solid races to this end. Of course Vuman or Custom Lineage is also good and you could triple up on healing with Jorasco Halfling.

If I were making a fighty Wizard I'd probably skip on the sweet 20 Int and instead go like 18 Dex/18 Int with a draw for Res: Con on 4 instead (via. Custom Lineage). Though 16 Dex/15 Con/20 Int with like Elf/Hobgoblin would indeed be amazing too; just roll with Res: Con on 4 and then you're set and free to pick up Alert and Lucky and such from there. Indeed, this would also combine with potential Moderately Armored or just going like Mountain Dwarf or whatever. Mountain Dwarf with 15 Str/14 Dex/17 Con/20 Int/whatever is pretty amazingly positioned for becoming a tanky frontline type. You could pick up Res: Con and it wouldn't even really be wrong to take Moderately Armored for Shield (you could trade your default Medium Armor Prof for another martial weapon). Hell, it's technically possible to just roll with 17/14/17/18 and use Moderately Armored and Res: Con to make that 14/18/18/18 at which point you're pretty well setup to be a Bladesinger (and you have racial proficiencies up the wazoo so you can have Hand Crossbow and Heavy Crossbow and Longbow and Rapier and Whip). This means you're hard to put down even when not bladesinging and when you intend to bladesing, just go around without your shield and laugh at puny enemies' puny attempts to hit you. Hell, go Xbow Expert + Sharpshooter and you can get by pretty well as a ranged fighter (you can potentially postpone Res: Con with Bladesong's bonus to Con saves).


Though with your new supertanky frontline, just plain Diviner or Chronurgist or Lore Bard seems like just what the doctor ordered. 20 starting Int is no joke for a CC Wizard, especially coupled with someone debuffing enemy saves like Chronurgist or Diviner (or 20 Cha Eloquence Bard but Wizard list has better AOE CC which is what you want here). Throw around Webs and Hypnotic Patterns and Watery Spheres and your enemies will largely be unable to do anything since you have like DC 15 save DC on your level 3 Web already. And since you can start with 17 Con and go Res: Con, you'll be able to reach +7 Con saves by level 5 which is great (level 13 is when you reach "untouchability"). Mountain Dwarf seems great for this too with your particular set of stats, letting you get armor and max Con/Int and some nice proficiencies while at it.

With these stats, Custom Lineage completely beats out Vuman: you get to start out with 20 Int and 16 Con with Res: Con and then you can raise your Dex to 16 if you want to improve your AC or focus on utility feats like Alert and Lucky instead (and eventually potentially Magic Jar some body).

Would definitely consider a lore bard if I wasn't playing a hexblade 2/lore bard 11 in a different campaign :smallsmile:


Be sure to remind your DM that ROTF is designed for AL play and "assumes" that there will be loot given out according to session progression. If your DM doesn't know that, you basically won't get much in the way of magical items, according to what I've read.

Thanks, I'll be sure to let him know!


The interesting Tasha bump for Elemonk is Ki-Fueled Attack (in combination with Dedicated Weapon). Every time you spend ki on your action, you can make an attack with a monk weapon (or an unarmed strike) as a bonus action. So you can take Shortbow or Light Crossbow as your dedicated weapon, and follow up your "spell" with a ranged attack.

Elemonk has its biggest power spike at 11th level, where you can choose Fireball and get multiple of them per short rest (plus availability of Fly).
(Before then, you can take Thunderwave or Burning Hands for AoE at low levels, and Shatter for a ranged AoE at 6th level.)

IMO, the other Monks that benefit the most from Ki-Fueled Attack are Shadow (cast and attack in the same turn) and Kensei (stun/Focused Aim/Deft Strike and follow up with kensei bonus action).

It depends a bit what you mean by higher levels. Diamond Soul at Monk 14 is a game-changer, as is Empty Body at Monk 18.

If anything, I think the most frustrating part of the progression is in the 2nd-4th level range: you've got ki, but not much of it. The only saving grace here vs other martials is that you've got a free bonus action attack without spending ki. IMO, the easiest way to "smooth" this part of the progression is to take V.Human Mobile for free "Disengage".

For mostly-tier-2 play, Way of the Astral Self is really nice because you can focus on having a great Wis for both attacking and stunning instead of worrying about balancing Dex and Wis. (In tier 3, you need to go back to Dex if you want your AC and ranged attacks to continue to improve.)

BTW, if you're not getting magical loot, Kensei is REALLY nice; their chosen weapons count as magical anyway starting at 6, and you can turn a vanilla weapon into an (up to) +3 weapon for an encounter via Sharpen the Blade.

Looks interesting, but I think I'm going full caster on this one now that we've got a cleric and a bearbarian. Hopefully the DM won't be too stingy with the magic goodies :smallsmile:


This, outlander background. So much this.

Otherwise I second paladin.

EDIT: This is why you refresh before responding. I did not refresh since yesterday, and did not see the comp change.

Yeah, Rune Knight would have been a cool one, but like the previous comment, I'm leaning toward a full caster build.

The cleric character is now saying he's probably choosing the grave domain. I have to admit I was hoping for twilight, but...

It looks like I'm down to these choices right now:

Hex 1/Evoker x
Hex 1-2/Abjurer x
Hex 2/Aberrant Mind x
Hex 2/Clockwork Soul x
Bladesinger

Man, I'm really struggling with this one :smallbiggrin:

[torrmh]

Small update - DM indicated he wasn't too fond of the customizing your origin ability swap option in Tasha's, but I think the custom origin human is still in play.

[AvalancheSpring]

Would definitely consider a lore bard if I wasn't playing a hexblade 2/lore bard 11 in a different campaign :smallsmile:


Sure try a new class. You'll enjoy it. But for future reference, you may be overestimating how similar your bardlock is to a straight bard.

Hexblade is an overwhelming and character defining dip (too much so for my taste, honestly) - your bardlock has a high damage multiattack cantrip and a great AC.

A straight bard has extremely limited sustained damage options and is very fragile. You are likely to have a lot of 5 round fights where you cast 1 or 2 game changing spells - and spend the other 3 or 4 round doing minor illusion or dissonant whispers. But you'd have Forcecage to absolutely crush one fight per day, and you'd be casting Teleport on non-combat days.

It is a very different experience, and arguably even more so at lower levels, where most gameplay happens.

[Eldariel]

If you're already playing a Hex/X in another game, just go Bladesinger. It's a blast as a bit of a different Wizard, it gets on par access to the various spells and effects that make a Wizard hilarious, it's a good frontliner and a backliner (Drow or Hobgoblin Bladesinger actually gives you access to Hand Crossbow too if you wanna build an archery Bladesinger, which might complement the party nicely; though just Longbow from High Elf is not a bad option either), and adds all sorts of cool stuff to the party.

EDIT: Actually, just fleshing this out:
High Elf Bladesinger
13 Str
20 Dex
15 Con
16 Int
14 Wis
13 Cha

4. Sharpshooter
8. Elven Accuracy/Fighting Initiate: Archery/Alert/Res: Con (depends on if you wanna focus on fighting [EA is the best followed by FI], utility [Alert] or survivability [Res: Con])

Go from there (on 12 you can have Elven Accuracy and Fighting Initiate if you wanna focus on Archery). This works great, especially with Haste. On level 6 you can:
R1: Haste + Bonus Action Attack
R2: Full attack (alternatively use one action to cast Minor Illusion to grant yourself concealment so as to get advantage on your other attacks)

This is very potent for long range combat. This gives you a lot of kiting power, great offensive potential (3 attacks with Sharpshooter from R2 onwards is just insane). You can also seamlessly blend into melee with either Shadow Blade + Booming Blade or Rapier + Haste all with Bladesong (21 AC, comparable to Fighter with Defense fighting style and Fullplate and Shield, and then Haste for 23 AC and Shield for 28 if necessary). You have 18 AC with Mage Armor + 20 Dex and great hiding and Initiative. Great bonuses on all your attacks too. Obviously this also scales decently since you're still a Wizard: there's Tenser's on level 11 which is really good (2d12 damage on all your hits plus advantage if you didn't have it already!) and Simulacrum on 13 (so someone else can concentrate on Haste on you). These are all nice tools for killing things for real at long range. At shorter ranges you can either play it out as a Bladesinger melee fighting or as a Wizard, depending on what suits the situation.

Also, the high elf bonus cantrip comes in really handy since you want Minor Illusion for ranged abuse (unseen attacker hitting at long range from behind it is great), Booming Blade/Greenflame Blade (great melee options), Mold Earth (overall just good) and utility cantrips and maybe even something like Toll the Dead for when you'd rather hit a save than AC.


Minor Illusion specifically is something to ask about the DM. Can you make an illusion of a:
- Thicket (optimal for firing through since people are unlikely to suspect that it be an illusion)
- Curtain/etc. (same as above)

If not, you can always make one of a stone or a box or whatever and hide behind/in those and then it's down to how DM adjudicates enemies seeing the arrows - how close do they have to be to see the arrows flying through for instance. 'cause as long as you can abuse the Unseen Attacker at long ranges, it's a great complement to Sharpshooter. You obviously also want an Owl familiar for Flyby Help action to get advantage on one hit (be prepared for enemies killing it and carry the tokens needed to summon a new one if it gets really annoying and they can't reach you though) and such.


Practically, this would be a very decent archer with solid combat ability at massive range but seamlessly able to switch-hit up close while also still a full Wizard. Having 18 base AC with access to Bladesong and Shield is pretty sweet and getting Extra Attack Longbow Sharpshootery going with all the options that open up to Wizard makes you a very solid damage dealer throughout your career. This would shore up the lack of arcane magic (and the lack of magic in general) as well as the lack of long range damage dealer in the party and overall it seems like a perfect hit. 16 Int is not 20 Int (you can raise your Int later once you pick up archery) but it's good enough for most purposes (if you cast AOE save-or-lose spells against weak enemy saves, they'll still be failing) and in this case, since you want to be fightery too, having 20 Dex is just more important. It means you don't need medium armor and your Dex-saves will be fine and that your martial attacks don't need ASIs and will never leave anything to be desired. And obviously, since DM doesn't allow Tashaing up your ASIs, you don't really have much choice; you can't have 20 Int even if you wanted to so might as well go with 20 Dex.

Obviously, this build is made with strong Tier 1 in mind; if you start at a different point, there's something to be said for starting with 17 Dex/19 Int and then using like Elven Accuracy for 20 Int (and eventually Magic Jar for a better body and such) but having a +5 Dex Tier 1 just does a lot for you especially when not Bladesinging (and on low levels, your Bladesong is very limited). Sharpshooter is the one constant: if you want the long range competence, you want Sharpshooter to attack at 600' without penalties, and the -5/+10 to convert your hit bonus to damage.

[Cheesegear]

As always, IMO, the best three-person party is Paladin, Ranger, Bard. (It's actually Cleric, Cleric, Druid. But we'll ignore that.)

As a DM who is running two consecutive IWD campaigns:

Silver Dragonborn Paladin
Goliath Ranger
White Dragonborn Bard

Gets you Cold Resistance on your entire party at Level 1. However, none of the party has Darkvision. However, in IWD, I'd take Cold Resistance over Darkvision, any day, and most nights.
The Goliath Ranger can open up several environmental and social options.
Whilst the Paladin and Bard are just...Good classes that compliment each other.

[sambojin]

Stars Druid? Different enough from a Moon that you won't be standing on toes, you full-caster and even Bard a little bit with weal&woe/guiding bolt, but you can mix it up fine with summon/s and Archer constellation if you need DPR. You can summon big meat bricks instead of lots of littles, so there's more bear/snake to help out when the Moon whiffs concentration checks.

With those stats, you could grab whatever race you want. But be a Firbolg. Because post Tasha's, having more short-rest resources are great. And it adds more druid to your druidy druid.

[Kane0]

Frost Rune Knight or Tundra Storm Herald naturally.

Edit: Or if you can take UA, White Drakewarden even.

[torrmh]

Sure try a new class. You'll enjoy it. But for future reference, you may be overestimating how similar your bardlock is to a straight bard.

Hexblade is an overwhelming and character defining dip (too much so for my taste, honestly) - your bardlock has a high damage multiattack cantrip and a great AC.

A straight bard has extremely limited sustained damage options and is very fragile. You are likely to have a lot of 5 round fights where you cast 1 or 2 game changing spells - and spend the other 3 or 4 round doing minor illusion or dissonant whispers. But you'd have Forcecage to absolutely crush one fight per day, and you'd be casting Teleport on non-combat days.

It is a very different experience, and arguably even more so at lower levels, where most gameplay happens.

This is probably true, but I would prefer going with a less fragile option, seeing as we're only a 3 man party. I want decent AC and defenses.


If you're already playing a Hex/X in another game, just go Bladesinger. It's a blast as a bit of a different Wizard, it gets on par access to the various spells and effects that make a Wizard hilarious, it's a good frontliner and a backliner (Drow or Hobgoblin Bladesinger actually gives you access to Hand Crossbow too if you wanna build an archery Bladesinger, which might complement the party nicely; though just Longbow from High Elf is not a bad option either), and adds all sorts of cool stuff to the party.

EDIT: Actually, just fleshing this out:
High Elf Bladesinger
13 Str
20 Dex
15 Con
16 Int
14 Wis
13 Cha

4. Sharpshooter
8. Elven Accuracy/Fighting Initiate: Archery/Alert/Res: Con (depends on if you wanna focus on fighting [EA is the best followed by FI], utility [Alert] or survivability [Res: Con])

Go from there (on 12 you can have Elven Accuracy and Fighting Initiate if you wanna focus on Archery). This works great, especially with Haste. On level 6 you can:
R1: Haste + Bonus Action Attack
R2: Full attack (alternatively use one action to cast Minor Illusion to grant yourself concealment so as to get advantage on your other attacks)

This is very potent for long range combat. This gives you a lot of kiting power, great offensive potential (3 attacks with Sharpshooter from R2 onwards is just insane). You can also seamlessly blend into melee with either Shadow Blade + Booming Blade or Rapier + Haste all with Bladesong (21 AC, comparable to Fighter with Defense fighting style and Fullplate and Shield, and then Haste for 23 AC and Shield for 28 if necessary). You have 18 AC with Mage Armor + 20 Dex and great hiding and Initiative. Great bonuses on all your attacks too. Obviously this also scales decently since you're still a Wizard: there's Tenser's on level 11 which is really good (2d12 damage on all your hits plus advantage if you didn't have it already!) and Simulacrum on 13 (so someone else can concentrate on Haste on you). These are all nice tools for killing things for real at long range. At shorter ranges you can either play it out as a Bladesinger melee fighting or as a Wizard, depending on what suits the situation.

Also, the high elf bonus cantrip comes in really handy since you want Minor Illusion for ranged abuse (unseen attacker hitting at long range from behind it is great), Booming Blade/Greenflame Blade (great melee options), Mold Earth (overall just good) and utility cantrips and maybe even something like Toll the Dead for when you'd rather hit a save than AC.


Minor Illusion specifically is something to ask about the DM. Can you make an illusion of a:
- Thicket (optimal for firing through since people are unlikely to suspect that it be an illusion)
- Curtain/etc. (same as above)

If not, you can always make one of a stone or a box or whatever and hide behind/in those and then it's down to how DM adjudicates enemies seeing the arrows - how close do they have to be to see the arrows flying through for instance. 'cause as long as you can abuse the Unseen Attacker at long ranges, it's a great complement to Sharpshooter. You obviously also want an Owl familiar for Flyby Help action to get advantage on one hit (be prepared for enemies killing it and carry the tokens needed to summon a new one if it gets really annoying and they can't reach you though) and such.


Practically, this would be a very decent archer with solid combat ability at massive range but seamlessly able to switch-hit up close while also still a full Wizard. Having 18 base AC with access to Bladesong and Shield is pretty sweet and getting Extra Attack Longbow Sharpshootery going with all the options that open up to Wizard makes you a very solid damage dealer throughout your career. This would shore up the lack of arcane magic (and the lack of magic in general) as well as the lack of long range damage dealer in the party and overall it seems like a perfect hit. 16 Int is not 20 Int (you can raise your Int later once you pick up archery) but it's good enough for most purposes (if you cast AOE save-or-lose spells against weak enemy saves, they'll still be failing) and in this case, since you want to be fightery too, having 20 Dex is just more important. It means you don't need medium armor and your Dex-saves will be fine and that your martial attacks don't need ASIs and will never leave anything to be desired. And obviously, since DM doesn't allow Tashaing up your ASIs, you don't really have much choice; you can't have 20 Int even if you wanted to so might as well go with 20 Dex.

Obviously, this build is made with strong Tier 1 in mind; if you start at a different point, there's something to be said for starting with 17 Dex/19 Int and then using like Elven Accuracy for 20 Int (and eventually Magic Jar for a better body and such) but having a +5 Dex Tier 1 just does a lot for you especially when not Bladesinging (and on low levels, your Bladesong is very limited). Sharpshooter is the one constant: if you want the long range competence, you want Sharpshooter to attack at 600' without penalties, and the -5/+10 to convert your hit bonus to damage.

Great breakdown, I hadn't really considered a ranged bladesinger. That adds to my conundrum :smallbiggrin:


As always, IMO, the best three-person party is Paladin, Ranger, Bard. (It's actually Cleric, Cleric, Druid. But we'll ignore that.)


As a DM who is running two consecutive IWD campaigns:

Silver Dragonborn Paladin
Goliath Ranger
White Dragonborn Bard

Gets you Cold Resistance on your entire party at Level 1. However, none of the party has Darkvision. However, in IWD, I'd take Cold Resistance over Darkvision, any day, and most nights.
The Goliath Ranger can open up several environmental and social options.
Whilst the Paladin and Bard are just...Good classes that compliment each other.

I was actually lucky enough to roll the cold resistance secret last night, hehe :) I'm really careful of playing a race without darkvision, so I think it's going to be either a custom lineage human or some kind of elf or half-elf, possibly a gnome.


Stars Druid? Different enough from a Moon that you won't be standing on toes, you full-caster and even Bard a little bit with weal&woe/guiding bolt, but you can mix it up fine with summon/s and Archer constellation if you need DPR. You can summon big meat bricks instead of lots of littles, so there's more bear/snake to help out when the Moon whiffs concentration checks.

With those stats, you could grab whatever race you want. But be a Firbolg. Because post Tasha's, having more short-rest resources are great. And it adds more druid to your druidy druid.

I was considering druid, but I think will leave that to the other player, who is probably only doing a barbarian dip for 1-3 levels with the rest in druid, even if it's a very different build :smallsmile:


Frost Rune Knight or Tundra Storm Herald naturally.

Edit: Or if you can take UA, White Drakewarden even.

Yeah, Rune Knight was one of the first ones that came to mind, but I want to play a full caster now that I've got two good tanks in front of me :smallsmile:

I've been thinking about a peace cleric dip too now for the last couple of hours, maybe somethink like an peace 1/evoker x build could be good (maybe throwing in that hexblade level eventually for the insane nuclear wizard magic missile combo). Somebody mentioned that having some kind of healing capability, and especially healing word, could be useful. And then there's emboldening bond of course, which could play really well with a bless spell too.

How would you guys rate the wizard options vs the hex 2/sorcerer x options with a possible peace cleric dip in the mix too?

[Eldariel]

I was actually lucky enough to roll the cold resistance secret last night, hehe :) I'm really careful of playing a race without darkvision, so I think it's going to be either a custom lineage human or some kind of elf or half-elf, possibly a gnome.

It's worth noting that for a Wizard specifically, this isn't that big of a deal; familiar can tend to most of your detection needs (Owl has 120' darkvision and excellent sight- and hearing-based PP of 18 while Bat has straight-up Blindsight 60') communicating you target locations (and out of combat you can use it as your eyes if necessary) and worst case scenario, there's the level 2 Darkvision spell, which lasts for 8 hours. For most other classes, yeah, I'd agree that Darkvision is pretty useful. But of course, it doesn't hurt either.


How would you guys rate the wizard options vs the hex 2/sorcerer x options with a possible peace cleric dip in the mix too?

I'll say this: getting Hypnotic Pattern/Fireball/Slow/Polymorph/Summon Greater Demon/Animate Objects/Wall of Force/Contingency/Tenser's/Magic Jar/Simulacrum on schedule is really, really cool. This means I wouldn't dip if I could get away with not dipping. Hex 2/Sorc X is strong but it delays your high level spells so you'll be casting lots of lower level spells. Overall, considering you can get the same or better AC and attack as straight Wizard I'd definitely go straight Wizard and if I wanted to be tanky, I'd just go Bladesinger.

If you wanna play a full caster, play a full caster and enjoy those top level spells as soon as you get them. Each spell level is a pretty amazing addition to your overall ability pool that's just far superior to upcast spells (each level plain unlocks new options). Especially if in the past you've done a lot of dips. Try how it feels; especially as a Wizard, which is the class with the most cool spells to look forward to, I fully recommend it.

This is actually one campaign where Investiture of Ice can be worth considering :D (though it's still only so good; Magic Jar for a cold resistant/immune body is probably better TBH).

EDIT: Oh yeah, if you really want a healing Wizard, there's always House of Jorasco Halfling, which goes pretty well with any kind of Wizard. Of course, Dragonmarked races are technically Eberron but you can still ask about it; it's a Wizard who gets an array of nice healing spells to use with their Wizard slots. One note about healing is also using your minions: Familiars or Unseen Servants or Animated Dead or Tiny Servants can (probably) chug potions down peoples' throats so taking Herbalism kit proficiency (seems about in line with an outlander type Elven Archer Wizard) you can produce healing potions. It costs you some gold and herbs may be hard to find in Icewind Dale specifically, but ultimately you can probably produce them in fairly high quantities (they're cheap) and use them for reviving allies via non-actions.

One option is also asking the Druid to cast Goodberries with all their slots at the end of each day (a good habit to grow into anyways) as they're usable for 24 hours (so for 16 hours after rest) and then give you and your minions some for administering. 1 HP is enough to raise someone from unconscious after all and Goodberry is incredibly slot efficient. In short, it's worth exploring non-spell and cooperative options on that front too: you don't need to be able to cast the spells yourself to be able to perform the duties in an emergency.

EDIT#2: Actually, it might be that you don't go into teens (depends on how the DM runs the adventure). All the more reason to maximise your levels in your casting class IMHO. Level 5 spells in particular, e.g. Wall of Force and Animate Object, are huge departures from their lower level kin and obviously you'll want to get Haste and Hypnotic Pattern and such ASAP. This is also an adventure in which Fireball is actually good since obviously fire is nice against many ice-themed enemies. Yeah, I just recommend Bladesinger. It has great 1-9 with these stats (I'd just go Archery fighting style on 8 if there's no expectation that you'll get to raise your stat again afterwards) and lets you play around with all the top tier spells on each level. Should be a blast. And of course, you have Absorb Elements which is naturally pretty good for an environment like this.

[Keravath]

It's worth noting that for a Wizard specifically, this isn't that big of a deal; familiar can tend to most of your detection needs (Owl has 120' darkvision and excellent sight- and hearing-based PP of 18 while Bat has straight-up Blindsight 60') communicating you target locations (and out of combat you can use it as your eyes if necessary) and worst case scenario, there's the level 2 Darkvision spell, which lasts for 8 hours. For most other classes, yeah, I'd agree that Darkvision is pretty useful. But of course, it doesn't hurt either.



I'll say this: getting Hypnotic Pattern/Fireball/Slow/Polymorph/Summon Greater Demon/Animate Objects/Wall of Force/Contingency/Tenser's/Magic Jar/Simulacrum on schedule is really, really cool. This means I wouldn't dip if I could get away with not dipping. Hex 2/Sorc X is strong but it delays your high level spells so you'll be casting lots of lower level spells. Overall, considering you can get the same or better AC and attack as straight Wizard I'd definitely go straight Wizard and if I wanted to be tanky, I'd just go Bladesinger.

If you wanna play a full caster, play a full caster and enjoy those top level spells as soon as you get them. Each spell level is a pretty amazing addition to your overall ability pool that's just far superior to upcast spells (each level plain unlocks new options). Especially if in the past you've done a lot of dips. Try how it feels; especially as a Wizard, which is the class with the most cool spells to look forward to, I fully recommend it.

This is actually one campaign where Investiture of Ice can be worth considering :D (though it's still only so good; Magic Jar for a cold resistant/immune body is probably better TBH).

EDIT: Oh yeah, if you really want a healing Wizard, there's always House of Jorasco Halfling, which goes pretty well with any kind of Wizard. Of course, Dragonmarked races are technically Eberron but you can still ask about it; it's a Wizard who gets an array of nice healing spells to use with their Wizard slots. One note about healing is also using your minions: Familiars or Unseen Servants or Animated Dead or Tiny Servants can (probably) chug potions down peoples' throats so taking Herbalism kit proficiency (seems about in line with an outlander type Elven Archer Wizard) you can produce healing potions. It costs you some gold and herbs may be hard to find in Icewind Dale specifically, but ultimately you can probably produce them in fairly high quantities (they're cheap) and use them for reviving allies via non-actions.

One option is also asking the Druid to cast Goodberries with all their slots at the end of each day (a good habit to grow into anyways) as they're usable for 24 hours (so for 16 hours after rest) and then give you and your minions some for administering. 1 HP is enough to raise someone from unconscious after all and Goodberry is incredibly slot efficient. In short, it's worth exploring non-spell and cooperative options on that front too: you don't need to be able to cast the spells yourself to be able to perform the duties in an emergency.

EDIT#2: Actually, it might be that you don't go into teens (depends on how the DM runs the adventure). All the more reason to maximise your levels in your casting class IMHO. Level 5 spells in particular, e.g. Wall of Force and Animate Object, are huge departures from their lower level kin and obviously you'll want to get Haste and Hypnotic Pattern and such ASAP. This is also an adventure in which Fireball is actually good since obviously fire is nice against many ice-themed enemies. Yeah, I just recommend Bladesinger. It has great 1-9 with these stats (I'd just go Archery fighting style on 8 if there's no expectation that you'll get to raise your stat again afterwards) and lets you play around with all the top tier spells on each level. Should be a blast. And of course, you have Absorb Elements which is naturally pretty good for an environment like this.

I'd just have to say that your DM is far more generous than any I have ever met.

"communicating you target locations (and out of combat you can use it as your eyes if necessary) "

Looking through a familiar's senses costs an action and leaves you blind/deaf. Having your familiar tell you where something is lets you know there is something out there and approximately where it is but you still can't see it so you can't target spells requiring sight and attack rolls have disadvantage if they can see you.

A DM might allow you to continuously look through your familiar's senses with it perched on your shoulder or head or similar but it would take a lot of practice and getting used to in order to move around like that. In addition, it still takes your action so when focused on linking senses, all the character can do is move, no skill checks.

The darkvision spell is the only real alternative, taking a second level slot and only lasting 8 hours.

Bladesinger is more tanky than an average wizard but needs to boost both dex and int to do so. It isn't nearly as tanky as a 1 cleric/ X wizard since the cleric includes proficiency with armor (medium or heavy) + shield.

For ice wind dale, the OP could look at 1 Twilight cleric/ X evoker - cleric for darkvision/armor/shield and first level cleric spells and the evoker wizard for well controlled damage. Sculpt spells is very useful.

On the other hand, any of the character builds suggested - sorlock, 1 cleric/X wizard, bladesinger and others - would be fun to play in IWD - so it is mostly up to the OP to decide what he would like most to play :)

[Eldariel]

"communicating you target locations (and out of combat you can use it as your eyes if necessary) "

Looking through a familiar's senses costs an action and leaves you blind/deaf. Having your familiar tell you where something is lets you know there is something out there and approximately where it is but you still can't see it so you can't target spells requiring sight and attack rolls have disadvantage if they can see you.

Yeah, obviously it comes at a cost; I've mostly done it on Alert characters so the blindness doesn't provoke disadvantage though. And you can still cast AOE spells that don't require sight (like Sleep, Web, Fireball, etc.) based on the information provided by the familiar. Telepathy certainly is efficient enough to that end. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?627571-Is-Create-Homomculus-overpriced&p=24942877#post24942877)

And there's not much difference between Cleric X/Wizard and Bladesinger X if you're starting with 20 Dex: you get 18 AC on level 1 (highest non-shield user in the game) and get Bladesong on level 2 for 21 in a pinch (highest available in the game, without investing feats). And can cast Shield too. The Cleric dip doesn't really do much here, especially given the expenses of acquiring armor.

[KnotaGuru]

Hey guys :smallsmile:

I'm starting a new Frostmaiden campaign with some old friends. We will be 3 regular players, and I'm looking for some ideas.

The other two players have indicated the following:

Player 1: A dwarven cleric, subclass yet to be determined, but likely something at least a bit tanky (probably full plate and shield)

Player 2: An elf (sub race not determined) bard, subclass yet to be determined.

We are rolling for stats, (4d6 drop lowest) and I rolled some amazing stats:

18
15
15
14
13
13

What build would be an ideal addition to these two?

I know it's difficult to say before the other two subclasses are determined, so maybe you guys have some ideas about which subclasses they should pick as well.

We use PHB, Tasha's, XGtE and probably SCAG too if necessary.

I was thinking about a bladesinger, but I would love to hear what you guys think :smallsmile:


Arcana cleric with the custom race option from Tasha's for a feat, darkvision, and a language (elvish maybe?)

STR: 13
DEX: 14
CON: 15
INT: 15*
WIS: 18 (+2 race = 20)
CHA: 13

*You could swap a 15 INT for a 13 STR or CHA but you're an Arcanca cleric, you SHOULD be smart :)

Take magic initiate feat (Druid) for Shillelagh, Thorn Whip & Goodberry or Absorb Elements for your 1st level spell.
Take Green Flame Blade and Firebolt for your Arcana bonus spells
Take Warcaster feat at level 4
Take Resilient (CON) feat at level 8

This allows you to be a full caster, dependant only on Wisdom, have a better AC (18 at level 1) and HD over a wizard, always have a magic weapon through Shillelagh (magic weapons are rare in RotFM), deal fire damage up close or at range (fire damage will be important in RotFM), heal, remove debuffs at level 6, and have all the goodies of a cleric. Arcana domain also grants access to some nice wizard spells you wouldn't normally get as a cleric.

You can wade into melee with Spirit Guardians and GFB, using Thorn Whip to keep enemies close or stay at range with Firebolt or Sacred Flame if you'd rather target a save. At level 8 all of your cantrips get a nice boost in damage from potent spellcasting.

[Eldariel]

This allows you to be a full caster, dependant only on Wisdom, have a better AC (18 at level 1) and HD over a wizard, always have a magic weapon through Shillelagh (magic weapons are rare in RotFM), deal fire damage up close or at range (fire damage will be important in RotFM), heal, remove debuffs at level 6, and have all the goodies of a cleric. Arcana domain also grants access to some nice wizard spells you wouldn't normally get as a cleric.

Actually the build I suggested has 18 AC on level 1 plus access to Shield-spell so the AC-part is definitely in the favour of a Wizard. Wizard also has a better spell list, especially at range, and their bookless ritual casting and such. So this isn't such a clear choice: Arcana Cleric misses out on i.a. Sleep, Shield, Absorb Elements, Web, Counterspell, Hypnotic Pattern, Fireball, Polymorph, etc. out of the big low level Wizard spells. They have their own tools but it's a very different take and probably less durable ultimately (since Wizard has, again, those Reaction spells).

[KnotaGuru]

Actually the build I suggested has 18 AC on level 1 plus access to Shield-spell so the AC-part is definitely in the favour of a Wizard. Wizard also has a better spell list, especially at range, and their bookless ritual casting and such. So this isn't such a clear choice: Arcana Cleric misses out on i.a. Sleep, Shield, Absorb Elements, Web, Counterspell, Hypnotic Pattern, Fireball, Polymorph, etc. out of the big low level Wizard spells. They have their own tools but it's a very different take and probably less durable ultimately (since Wizard has, again, those Reaction spells).

Your wizard is a unique recommendation, but also kept a 16 Intelligence the entire campaign and has a d6 HD. I feel you are focusing on making the wizard a ranged martial character by your feat selection (Sharpshooter), attribute allocation (20 DEX only 16 INT), and spell recommendations. Without archery fighting style, Sharpshooter will miss more often than not. You could find a way to gain advantage, such as restrain (web/tentacles) or paralyze (hold person/monster) to increase the likelihood of hitting. But with only a 16 INT, your spell save DC is weak and your concentration spell is wasted. Bladesong also ends early if you use two hands to make an attack with a weapon. The longbow is a two-handed weapon, it's right there in the weapon description.

Wizards are great and have the best spell list in the game (hypnotic pattern can end encounters and fireball is just fun) and you honestly can't go wrong with picking any of the schools. Bladesinger did get a nice boost from Tasha's. It really depends what the OP is looking for from their character.

[Eldariel]

But with only a 16 INT, your spell save DC is weak and your concentration spell is wasted. Bladesong also ends early if you use two hands to make an attack with a weapon. The longbow is a two-handed weapon, it's right there in the weapon description.

While I largely agree, couple of points:
- 16 Int makes for the same DC as normal point buy Wizards up until 4. It's not really that bad: as in, you can still use save-or-X spells and you have a more than fair chance of enemy failing and, of course, some spells have an effect on success too (Web, Fireball, Dragon's Breath, etc.). And of course there are plenty of great spells that don't have saves: mentioned Haste, Invisibility, Major Image/Silent Image, Tiny Servant/Animate Dead, Sleep, Shield/Absorb Elements, Polymorph, Animate Objects, Wall of Force, etc.

- The plan isn't really to combine those Bladesong and Longbow: you use Bladesong for close combat and Longbow is only for fighting at long range where you don't really need Bladesong awfully much: there are few enemies that can fight back at the 100'-600' range so bonus AC or bonus to Concentration checks isn't that relevant. Bladesong is purely a defensive buff for you so save it for when enemies get up close. There you can, if needed, just Shadow Blade up a level 2-3 Shadow Blade, Bladesong and kick ass at 2d8+5 damage potentially advantageous psychic attacks with 21 AC and +5 Concentration saves (leaves a bit to be desired but still decent). Since it's your plan B, the relative lack of Bladesong uses won't actually hinder you that much. And of course, both modes (ranged and melee) get great use out of the Extra Attack ability (Booming Blade and Minor Illusion especially). You actually get some Sharpshooter benefits on Shadow Blade throws too.

- I don't see how your Concentration would be wasted? Something like Haste is generally fine to Concentrate on, as is Polymorph or Summon Greater Demon or Web or whatever.

- You do have Familiar for Help-action and vision denial/Illusions (e.g. mentioned Minor Illusion Extra Attack) to generate advantage from unseen attacker so it's not like you are entirely without toys for making your Sharpshooter attacks hit. Plus, you start with +5 Dex which is off the curve so you'll have some extra hit bonus to spare compared to game expectations.

- d6 HD isn't really that big of a deal numerically. If you can block one attack with Shield or Absorb Elements, that's generally more HP than what you'd have extra if you had like d10 HD - though in this case, unless you do pick Res: Con on 8, you'll be a bit lacking in this regard (it's definitely the safest way to go).


In short, Longbow is there to give the party some long range punch and at long range you don't need Bladesong. This build just gives you one more good tool for your arsenal, making the party better rounded (you essentially fill 3 roles: CC caster, ranged DPS, melee brawler). Did I mention that a Hasted kiting Longbow Bladesinger is a royal PiTA? 10 rounds of double speed (60') + option of dashing (120') while still full attacking (including potentially casting Minor Illusion for concealment or Mold Earth for one-sided cover [SS ignores all but total cover] instead of one attack) means you can even kite or chase dragons to a degree (your double Dash is 180' vs. their dash of 160' - but of course you're walking while they're flying). 3 attacks while moving 60' or 2 attacks while moving 120' means it's very hard for enemies to get within attack range of you and your 1d8+15 x 2/3 at +2-+3 with potential advantage isn't to be trifled with (vs. your average CR 7 creature with AC 15 your triple non-advantage is 41,6 DPR while your double advantage is 38,5 - but of course, if you get to hit iteratives from your Illusionary hiding place next round, you can get as much as 63 DPR vs. AC15 on level 6).

[torrmh]

Another good choice might be Aberrant Mind sorcerer from Tasha's with two levels of Hexblade Warlock. Should cover most of the bases :). You could go all in on psionics from a role play perspective and refluff the hexblade patron as a group mind or something similar from which you draw additional abilities (DM permitting).

Decent choices of metamagic could be Quicken, Twin and Transmute. The Transmute one is cool because by taking fireball and scorching ray you can do any of 6 or so damage types for only 1 sorcery point.

We played our first session last night, and I didnt' really make my final decision until like 10 minutes before we started, too many good suggestions and options here, haha :smallsmile:

I ended up with Keravath's suggestion above - will be going with a half-elf sorlock with two levels of Hexblade (could consider a third if it becomes evident that having an invisible imp around will be real handy, and the rest in Aberrant Mind :smallbiggrin: ) It was the social capabilities, ranged DPR and NOVA, action economy possibilities, forced movement with repelling blast as well as the cool fluff around an Aberrant Mind that made me pick it in the end. Already got good use out of a high persuasion skill in our first session! And I'm really looking forward to knocking some poor monster into a hunger of hadar or evards or the druid's spiked growth:P

I ended up starting Warlock:

Half-Elf
STR 13
DEX 16 (+1)
CON 15
INT 14 (+1)
WIS 14
CHA 20 (+2)

Cantrips: Eldritch Blast, Minor Illusion
Spells: Hex, Shield

Didn't yet decide if I will go to Warlock 2 immediately or wait until I have 5 levels of Aberrant Mind first. First option gives me better DPR sooner, the second gives me Metamagic, the ASI and 2nd/3rd level spells quicker.

Went half-elf because trading an additional +1/+1, fey ancestry and 2 skills for a custom lineage with one ASI didn't seem worth it.

Regarding the INT boost instead of CON, I made that 13 to a 14 because I thought it would be handy with a better Arcana and Investigation skill, as well as a slightly higher INT save, instead of boosting CON to 16 immediately. The plan is to take RES CON with my first ASI, (unless I really want Meta Adept early for more SP and Metamagics). I will probably be able to make changes (maybe even the race if necessary), seeing as it was only our first session yesterday, and I didn't make any rolls related to INT nor CON.

Another option could have been going Sorcerer first, with a 16 CON and 13 INT, with CON save proficiency. But then I wouldn't have WIS save proficiency, but I guess that isn't very important until later levels? Seeing as I felt like having a decent starting WIS for Perception and Insight, it feels kind of wasted to increase a 14 to 15 with RES WIS later... But I guess I could have started with 13 WIS and bumped that to 14 with first ASI. But then I end up with 2 less HP, and I'm not really sure if that high CON save in early levels is so important for a sorlock who can get good DPR without needing to concentrate on spells (and if you lose concentration on a 1st level Hex, that's not a big deal IMO).

Did I mention I also rolled the cold resistance secret?

Do you guys have any further thoughts on this?

I also want to thank you guys for the great input so far, I will definitely keep in mind the other suggestions too. I think I'll try a Bladesinger for my next character, whenever that may be :)

[Emongnome777]

Looks like tons of fun. I think it was a good choice to get the Wis save now, get the Con save later. As for the future, I would personally take 2 levels of Warlock now, then rest with Sorcerer. Metamagic Adept at 4th, Res (Con) at 8th would be the order I do those two. Inspiring Leader would be great to have sometime as well.

As for taking a 3rd level in warlock, I'd be tempted to get pact of the tome a take the Book of Ancient Secrets invocation. Adding potentially all rituals would be awesome for a small party. The problem is that you'd have to trade out an invocation and you already have Agonizing and Repelling, and those both seem (rightly) non-negotiable. Your next invocation isn't until 5th, which is probably too much warlock for you.

I'm like you and would've had analysis paralysis with all the good suggestions.

[Eldariel]

*snip*

If you're going Sorlock, you have one huge decision to make:
- Warlock 2/Sorcerer X gets the maximum amount of high level spells
- Warlock 3/Sorcerer X has twice the slots for Font of Magic plus Pact (Chain and Tome are both quite good) but is one full level of casting behind

It matters a lot, as you might imagine:
- High level spells give you good stuff to Twin like Polymorph or Haste
- Extra sorcery points give you more slots and more metamagic to play with
- You get Familiar on Warlock 3 either way (either from Find Familiar or from the Chain), which is of course a massive power spike on low levels. Voice of the Chain Master makes Chain familiar stupid useful as it can be your eyes at will and there's no limit on its telepathy - plus the familiar itself is pretty potent in Sprite/Imp/Quasit. All excellent invisible sneakster scouts though worse PP than Pseudodragon/Owl/etc.
- Faster Sorc progression means more ASIs


So yeah, the big break point is whether you take Warlock 3 or not. Obviously Sorc 2/Warlock 2 gets to do the Sorlock nonsense ASAP and Sorc 3/Warlock 2 finally has metamagic so there are reasons to prioritise both. And of course since you're Hexblade specifically you get to abuse Hexblade's Curse + Magic Missile too (admittedly with limited high level slots but it's still a very potent combo).

FWIW I'd probably go Warlock 2/Sorc X just to get the high level spells ASAP but there are arguments both ways. Psionic Sorcery is a huge step up in terms of efficiency; you get to convert spell slots to power points and then use them at face value to cast spells from Sorcery points directly which means you don't need to fiddle around with remaking spell slots. So that's another argument for aiming at Warlock 2/Sorcerer 6 ASAP.

[Corran]

Do you guys have any further thoughts on this?
Quickening EB's burns through sp (and slots) fast, so usually it's good for your additional metamagic options to be cheap ones. In this case though, and just because you are a party of 3 with two frontliners while the third character (yours) can shoot from range (a little more on that later), twinned is a solid metamagic pick and one I would definitely go for. Thus, I would be even more tempted to do something I already like doing on sorlocks. That is to delay quickened (and subsequently the 2nd warlock level). So always given that I would be picking twinned, I would be willing to push agonizing blast all the way back to character level 11. And I would be willing to push repelling blast back all the way till I got something really good that synergizes with it (eg Evard's), probably even further than that (cause my concentration can be occupied with spells that can be twinned just as well at that point). So most likely I'd take that second warlock level at character level 11. Edit: And I would pick quickened at sorcerer 10, ie character level 12. Not the easiest suggestion to digest, especially in aa party that does lack ranged damage, but that's what I would be tempted to plan for. To make quickening EB's my long term plan. Depending on how things turn out in practice, I could always backtrack and fit a 2nd warlock level in if really necessary, but all my attention would go on how I can prevent having to do that.

Following on the twinned route, concentration becomes even more important, and so does having your enemies concentrate on your buffed allies instead of you, the unbuffed caster who is empowering them. So not being targeted is very important, and an easy way to not be targeted is to not be seen. So devil's sight is definitely something to consider. I dont say that you should definitely take it, but at least consider it with the bigger picture in mind (you want your enemies to focus on a bearbarian and defensive minded cleric, who are hard to take down fast, with spirit guardians slowly but in mass melting them away, instead of going after you). Attacking from the shadows thanks to superior darkvision helps with that (aso helps with not being targeted by some save or suck effects, several of which require of the caster to see the target, so one less pc to worry regarding saving throws, which is somewhat of a weak spot for your group), and it also helps with boosting your ranged single target damage thanks to advantage. Repelling blast also helps with diverting attention to your two melee allies who aim to fight inside a death zone of sorts, so dropping it might not be the best idea. If it were me, I'd go for the shadow origin just for the improvement on darkvision to start with (the hound can be useful too, and it plays well with certain spells you might want to twinn, such as polymorph, and what they get in later levels -if you get there- also helps with escpaping the attention of your enemies, which is vital for your group tactics). It might not be an easy choice to drop aberrant mind, which I hear is really good (it's been a while since I checked it), but again, that's what I'd do.

So yeah, there are the things I would probably plan a little differently than you, but that's mostly due to prefference. All in all it sounds to me that you have a very good fit t the rest of your group right there.


I know I recommended they consider war wizard specifically because it is a 3-person party. You cant afford to have 1/3 of the team disabled, or to lose concentration on a key wizard spell with so few pieces on the board, and you have fewer team mates to bail you out. War Wizard has insanely good saving throws. The AC options are nice, the damage options are terrible. But the saves are a lifesaver.
That's a good point. Didn't really pay much attention to it (war wizard) because in my mind the op's character should find ways to avoid being targeted in the first place (so that the enemies may focus on the other two), and since the saves of the other pc's are not overly protected I didnt think too much about investing in saves protection for the one pc that tries to be out of the way. Then again, the small numbers should have made me at least realize that this was the selling point.

[Keravath]

I would lean towards resilient con at level 4 sorcerer (character level 5 or 6) - this is for the concentration checks as much as saves. If it was resilient wis, you might be able to leave it to level 8 since the really nasty wis save spells don't usually start until later in tier 2 but concentration happens all the time. (It also bumps your hit points a bit).

Imagine a situation where you twin haste on the front liners and lose concentration. Both of them lose their turn and the situation could get nasty.

Taking the level of hexblade first lets you start with higher hit points, medium armor and a shield which are all good. You also already have 20 charisma so your don't need to spend ASIs bumping it.

As far as progression goes ... 2 warlock/X sorcerer works fine and you will have the ASI at 6 and 3rd level spells at 7. However, early on you may not need Agonizing blast as much (assuming your team mates do decent damage - and you can also wade into melee using a long sword and hex warrior which will be more effective that eldritch blast without agonizing blast anyway). This makes it a bit more tempting to go 1 warlock/5 sorcerer/1 warlock/X sorcerer so you have the ASI at 5 and 3rd level spells at 6 and agonizing blast at 7. If you find that you need the damage from agonizing blast along the way you can always sub in the 2nd level of warlock whenever you want.

As for metamagics, quickened eldritch blast receives a lot of attention but it is pretty useless before about sorcerer level 7 since you lack the sorcery points to really make consistent use of it over an adventuring day. As you get into tier 3 at character level 11 where agonizing blast has 3 bolts, you start with 9 sorcery points at the start of the day, and you can burn a 4th or 5th level spell slot for 4 or 5 sorcery points and a couple more uses of quicken - this can be a more consistent strategy.

However, the aberrant mind 6th level ability which allows you to cast your psionic spells for sorcery points and NO components becomes a very efficient and tempting use for spending sorcery points rather than just burning them on quickened agonizing blast - so you could consider leaving quicken for later if there are other metamagics that are more appealing. On the other hand, quicken and twin are usually the best choices for most sorcerers.

[torrmh]

Looks like tons of fun. I think it was a good choice to get the Wis save now, get the Con save later. As for the future, I would personally take 2 levels of Warlock now, then rest with Sorcerer. Metamagic Adept at 4th, Res (Con) at 8th would be the order I do those two. Inspiring Leader would be great to have sometime as well.

As for taking a 3rd level in warlock, I'd be tempted to get pact of the tome a take the Book of Ancient Secrets invocation. Adding potentially all rituals would be awesome for a small party. The problem is that you'd have to trade out an invocation and you already have Agonizing and Repelling, and those both seem (rightly) non-negotiable. Your next invocation isn't until 5th, which is probably too much warlock for you.

I'm like you and would've had analysis paralysis with all the good suggestions.

Yeah, it's a real struggle for me when choosing what character I'm going, especially when it's for a campaign I'm really looking forward to :smallbiggrin:

I really wanted the Book of Ancient Secrets, which would really increase my utility here, but as you say, it's not an option to swap out Agonizing Blast and Repelling Blast.


If you're going Sorlock, you have one huge decision to make:
- Warlock 2/Sorcerer X gets the maximum amount of high level spells
- Warlock 3/Sorcerer X has twice the slots for Font of Magic plus Pact (Chain and Tome are both quite good) but is one full level of casting behind

It matters a lot, as you might imagine:
- High level spells give you good stuff to Twin like Polymorph or Haste
- Extra sorcery points give you more slots and more metamagic to play with
- You get Familiar on Warlock 3 either way (either from Find Familiar or from the Chain), which is of course a massive power spike on low levels. Voice of the Chain Master makes Chain familiar stupid useful as it can be your eyes at will and there's no limit on its telepathy - plus the familiar itself is pretty potent in Sprite/Imp/Quasit. All excellent invisible sneakster scouts though worse PP than Pseudodragon/Owl/etc.
- Faster Sorc progression means more ASIs


So yeah, the big break point is whether you take Warlock 3 or not. Obviously Sorc 2/Warlock 2 gets to do the Sorlock nonsense ASAP and Sorc 3/Warlock 2 finally has metamagic so there are reasons to prioritise both. And of course since you're Hexblade specifically you get to abuse Hexblade's Curse + Magic Missile too (admittedly with limited high level slots but it's still a very potent combo).

FWIW I'd probably go Warlock 2/Sorc X just to get the high level spells ASAP but there are arguments both ways. Psionic Sorcery is a huge step up in terms of efficiency; you get to convert spell slots to power points and then use them at face value to cast spells from Sorcery points directly which means you don't need to fiddle around with remaking spell slots. So that's another argument for aiming at Warlock 2/Sorcerer 6 ASAP.

Yeah, I'm leaning towards only 2 levels of Warlock right now, but I'll consider the third level if we get to a point in the campaign where it would be really beneficial to get the invisible helper/scout :smallsmile: Pact of the Tome isn't worth it to me if I don't have the available invocations to get the Book of Ancient Secrets.


Quickening EB's burns through sp (and slots) fast, so usually it's good for your additional metamagic options to be cheap ones. In this case though, and just because you are a party of 3 with two frontliners while the third character (yours) can shoot from range (a little more on that later), twinned is a solid metamagic pick and one I would definitely go for. Thus, I would be even more tempted to do something I already like doing on sorlocks. That is to delay quickened (and subsequently the 2nd warlock level). So always given that I would be picking twinned, I would be willing to push agonizing blast all the way back to character level 11. And I would be willing to push repelling blast back all the way till I got something really good that synergizes with it (eg Evard's), probably even further than that (cause my concentration can be occupied with spells that can be twinned just as well at that point). So most likely I'd take that second warlock level at character level 11. Edit: And I would pick quickened at sorcerer 10, ie character level 12. Not the easiest suggestion to digest, especially in aa party that does lack ranged damage, but that's what I would be tempted to plan for. To make quickening EB's my long term plan. Depending on how things turn out in practice, I could always backtrack and fit a 2nd warlock level in if really necessary, but all my attention would go on how I can prevent having to do that.

Following on the twinned route, concentration becomes even more important, and so does having your enemies concentrate on your buffed allies instead of you, the unbuffed caster who is empowering them. So not being targeted is very important, and an easy way to not be targeted is to not be seen. So devil's sight is definitely something to consider. I dont say that you should definitely take it, but at least consider it with the bigger picture in mind (you want your enemies to focus on a bearbarian and defensive minded cleric, who are hard to take down fast, with spirit guardians slowly but in mass melting them away, instead of going after you). Attacking from the shadows thanks to superior darkvision helps with that (aso helps with not being targeted by some save or suck effects, several of which require of the caster to see the target, so one less pc to worry regarding saving throws, which is somewhat of a weak spot for your group), and it also helps with boosting your ranged single target damage thanks to advantage. Repelling blast also helps with diverting attention to your two melee allies who aim to fight inside a death zone of sorts, so dropping it might not be the best idea. If it were me, I'd go for the shadow origin just for the improvement on darkvision to start with (the hound can be useful too, and it plays well with certain spells you might want to twinn, such as polymorph, and what they get in later levels -if you get there- also helps with escpaping the attention of your enemies, which is vital for your group tactics). It might not be an easy choice to drop aberrant mind, which I hear is really good (it's been a while since I checked it), but again, that's what I'd do.

So yeah, there are the things I would probably plan a little differently than you, but that's mostly due to prefference. All in all it sounds to me that you have a very good fit t the rest of your group right there.

I see the logic here, but I'm placing a lot of value on Repelling Blast for this character, because it's something I've been looking forward to trying out for quite some time. I'm not yet sure how effective it will be in real gameplay, but I talked to my DM about it, and I will be trying to use it in conjunction with the bearbarian's Spiked Growth spell, and spells of my own like Web or Hunger of Hadar (love the fluff on this one, looking forward to see if it's really effective or not) and natural hazards like cliffs, castle walls etc too :)

So I'm definitely seeing some benefits in getting to 3rd level spells and the ASI sooner, but I'll have to see if can manage to wait that long to try the forced movement shenanigans :smalltongue: The bearbarian will have Spiked Growth by level 4, so it's something I need to keep in mind.

Regarding the subclass, I would also love the improved darkvision (and also the ability to see through my own darkness spell) from Shadow, but I really want the juicy extra spells known from Aberrant Mind (or Clockwork Soul for that matter).



I would lean towards resilient con at level 4 sorcerer (character level 5 or 6) - this is for the concentration checks as much as saves. If it was resilient wis, you might be able to leave it to level 8 since the really nasty wis save spells don't usually start until later in tier 2 but concentration happens all the time. (It also bumps your hit points a bit).

Imagine a situation where you twin haste on the front liners and lose concentration. Both of them lose their turn and the situation could get nasty.

Taking the level of hexblade first lets you start with higher hit points, medium armor and a shield which are all good. You also already have 20 charisma so your don't need to spend ASIs bumping it.

As far as progression goes ... 2 warlock/X sorcerer works fine and you will have the ASI at 6 and 3rd level spells at 7. However, early on you may not need Agonizing blast as much (assuming your team mates do decent damage - and you can also wade into melee using a long sword and hex warrior which will be more effective that eldritch blast without agonizing blast anyway). This makes it a bit more tempting to go 1 warlock/5 sorcerer/1 warlock/X sorcerer so you have the ASI at 5 and 3rd level spells at 6 and agonizing blast at 7. If you find that you need the damage from agonizing blast along the way you can always sub in the 2nd level of warlock whenever you want.

As for metamagics, quickened eldritch blast receives a lot of attention but it is pretty useless before about sorcerer level 7 since you lack the sorcery points to really make consistent use of it over an adventuring day. As you get into tier 3 at character level 11 where agonizing blast has 3 bolts, you start with 9 sorcery points at the start of the day, and you can burn a 4th or 5th level spell slot for 4 or 5 sorcery points and a couple more uses of quicken - this can be a more consistent strategy.

However, the aberrant mind 6th level ability which allows you to cast your psionic spells for sorcery points and NO components becomes a very efficient and tempting use for spending sorcery points rather than just burning them on quickened agonizing blast - so you could consider leaving quicken for later if there are other metamagics that are more appealing. On the other hand, quicken and twin are usually the best choices for most sorcerers.

Yes, RES CON on my first ASI seems to be the logical move here, the example with Haste of course being the prime one.

I could definitely delay quicken for a bit, but if I don't take it at character level 4 or 5, then I'd have to wait all the way until level 10 or 12 before I could pick it up, if I don't spend my first ASI to get Meta Adept, which is too long IMO. I like having quicken as a nova option. So I'm leaning towards picking quicken and twin first :smallsmile: