Arms of the Astral Self - are they real arms?

[Segev]

Reading the rules text, it's hard to determine if they are illusory constructs that have a very limited list of things you can do with them, or are physically-present arms made of force with a list of special rules that grant extra permissions with them.

We know they definitely can be used for unarmed strikes (and do force damage when used in this way), and that they allow the use of Wisdom instead of Strength for Strength Checks and Strength Saving Throws (both of which suggest the arms are physically pushing or straining against real objects).

They say they are arms hovering near you. Given the art and the description, it's probably safe to assume they have hands at the ends of them. Can an Astral Self monk grapple up to four creatures at a time, having up to four free hands?

Could an Astral Self monk wield a greatsword and a shield? (Would that ever be worthwhile?)

[stoutstien]

By my reading they are semi-physical in the sense that they can be used to interact with the environment in short bursts. They are spectral so they could help your real arms grapple, hence the wisdom replacing strength, but they cannot maintain a grapple or hold anything outright.

[Segev]

By my reading they are semi-physical in the sense that they can be used to interact with the environment in short bursts. They are spectral so they could help your real arms grapple, hence the wisdom replacing strength, but they cannot maintain a grapple or hold anything outright.

I was going to say, "Okay, that's a reasonable ruling," but then I got to thinking about the grapple example: grappling isn't something that happens twice per round, once on your turn and once on your opponent's turn. That's how it's modeled, but the actual physical interaction is continuous. Let's take a hypothetical 8 strength Astral Self Monk with 16 Wisdom. If he's only applying his astral arms' wisdom-based grappling at brief spurts, his opponent only has to wait for that moment to be done before he shoves his way out of the scrawny physical arms of the weakling monk. So doesn't that mean the arms have to be constantly present, imposing their Wisdom-based force?

[Valmark]

IMO they interact phisically with creatures but mimick your movements. So when you grapple someone you aren't using holding them with your arm despite making the gesture, for example.

They wouldn't be able to grapple four creatures because your "real" arms are making the gesture while the "fake" arms are holding the enemy.

Since they can't be used to make attacks with monk weapon I do believe they can't interact with non-creatures.

All of this assuming you don't pick the 'wrapped around your arms' version, which doesn't pose any question.

[stoutstien]

I was going to say, "Okay, that's a reasonable ruling," but then I got to thinking about the grapple example: grappling isn't something that happens twice per round, once on your turn and once on your opponent's turn. That's how it's modeled, but the actual physical interaction is continuous. Let's take a hypothetical 8 strength Astral Self Monk with 16 Wisdom. If he's only applying his astral arms' wisdom-based grappling at brief spurts, his opponent only has to wait for that moment to be done before he shoves his way out of the scrawny physical arms of the weakling monk. So doesn't that mean the arms have to be constantly present, imposing their Wisdom-based force?

Dnd breaks as soon as you look at breaking time down at all. For the sake of a player/DM trying to have it mesh within a game's logic we could go a few different routes

-the spectral arms also empower the Monk's normal arms with ki.

-the monk's portion of astral self follows the rules of the astral plane but are less effective on different planes.

-go head long into the "body is an illusion" angle. Matrix rules.

Personally I wouldn't have an issue if a player wanted to treat the arms as real for the sake of interactions with stuff but might come with some risks involved channeling that much of thier true form.

[Segev]

Since they can't be used to make attacks with monk weapon I do believe they can't interact with non-creatures.

Hm. I was going to ask where it says they can't use monk weapons, but I think I see where you extrapolate that from: they can explicitly make unarmed strikes, which, by itself, doesn't mean they can't use monk weapons, but the next bullet says that when you make unarmed strikes with them, your reach extends by 5 feet; if they could wield monk weapons, therefore, it would seem likely they could extend the reach of those monk weapons, but it doesn't say they can do so.

[Valmark]

Hm. I was going to ask where it says they can't use monk weapons, but I think I see where you extrapolate that from: they can explicitly make unarmed strikes, which, by itself, doesn't mean they can't use monk weapons, but the next bullet says that when you make unarmed strikes with them, your reach extends by 5 feet; if they could wield monk weapons, therefore, it would seem likely they could extend the reach of those monk weapons, but it doesn't say they can do so.

Aye, plus the fact that all monk features that do work with monk weapons say so explicitely (as an example from the same book take Ki-Fueled Strikes).

[Segev]

Aye, plus the fact that all monk features that do work with monk weapons say so explicitely (as an example from the same book take Ki-Fueled Strikes).

That doesn't necessarily mean anything in this case: if the astral arms count as arms for all purposes where rules don't say otherwise, then they would not need to specify they work with monk weapons. Technically, what the rules tell us is that you can attack with +5 ft. reach if you use them to make unarmed strikes, and that you can definitely make unarmed strikes. The need to specify that you CAN make unarmed strikes suggests they're thinking that only what is specified can be done with them, though.

Ironically, this means that if you can justify using a greatsword as needing a strength check, you could definitely use the astral arms to use a greatsword.

[Mastikator]

There are three things to consider

Unarmed Strikes and Grapple attempts are not exactly the same
The spectral arms can only make unarmed strikes
The spectral arms do force damage, not physical damage. So they are not physical.

I'd argue that you can not use them to grapple, but you can have them present to use wisdom instead of strength to grapple. By RAW they can't interact with objects or creatures in any way other than unarmed strikes. If holding greatswords was RAI then I think the it would add "can interact with objects" to the list. Or at least simplify the text as "they function as normal arms that you have, with the added feature of having 10ft reach"