E12 or 6th level spells pre epic?

[liquidformat]

So I like the concept of E6 but am often depressed since it mostly kills off prestige classes. Using E12 seems like it might be more of a moderate magic setting rather than the low magic of E6 but you don't dive head first into full on tipsy verse or similar crazy power levels, magic hasn't quite gotten to the end all be all of standard 3.X and instead is just starting to outstrip martials. Alternatively I have seen on here people suggest going full 3.x just not allow anything above 6th level spells pre-epic, the slots are still their for 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells but can only be used for meta magic purposes.

On the face of it these seem like very similar rule variations but should provide quite a different feel. I was wondering what people's thoughts on these two variations are?

[Doctor Despair]

So I like the concept of E6 but am often depressed since it mostly kills off prestige classes. Using E12 seems like it might be more of a moderate magic setting rather than the low magic of E6 but you don't dive head first into full on tipsy verse or similar crazy power levels, magic hasn't quite gotten to the end all be all of standard 3.X and instead is just starting to outstrip martials. Alternatively I have seen on here people suggest going full 3.x just not allow anything above 6th level spells pre-epic, the slots are still their for 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells but can only be used for meta magic purposes.

On the face of it these seem like very similar rule variations but should provide quite a different feel. I was wondering what people's thoughts on these two variations are?

I've heard the issue phrased as casters growing in power/versatility exponentially, while martials grow additively. Folks have found that E6 hits a sweet spot where casters feel castery, martials feel martially, and casters haven't outstripped martials. Going to 12 benefits the casters way more than the martials, so I think, as you suggested, another fix would be needed to maintain that E6 balance point.

If your goal is to maintain that E6 feeling, eliminating the higher level spells is probably the better route to take. Even then, casters are still probably going to be a little too strong -- maybe spreading out the casting more would mitigate that feeling by having each class and prc provide one half the spellcasting progression it normally does (capping full casters at level 10 and 5ths at level 20). That would make casters almost unplayable early though, so maybe it needs fine-tuning.

[Biggus]

If your goal is to maintain that E6 feeling, eliminating the higher level spells is probably the better route to take. Even then, casters are still probably going to be a little too strong -- maybe spreading out the casting more would mitigate that feeling by having each class and prc provide one half the spellcasting progression it normally does (capping full casters at level 10 and 5ths at level 20). That would make casters almost unplayable early though, so maybe it needs fine-tuning.

Interesting idea. Maybe casters get their progression as normal up to 3rd level spells, then slower after that?

If you're capping full casters at 5th-level spells you'd have to reduce the Bard progression too, and probably also Paladin and Ranger. Personally I'd just slow full caster progression down so that they finish at 6th or 7th level spells by level 20, but obviously it depends how much time you're willing to spend rebalancing everything, and whether you want to try and make all the classes very close in power or just stop full casters from completely overshadowing others at high levels.

[Doctor Despair]

Interesting idea. Maybe casters get their progression as normal up to 3rd level spells, then slower after that?

If you're capping full casters at 5th-level spells you'd have to reduce the Bard progression too, and probably also Paladin and Ranger. Personally I'd just slow full caster progression down so that they finish at 6th or 7th level spells by level 20, but obviously it depends how much time you're willing to spend rebalancing everything, and whether you want to try and make all the classes very close in power or just stop full casters from completely overshadowing others at high levels.

Funnily enough, granting full progression up to 3rds, then giving 1/2 progression leaves full casters with their second level of 6ths at caster level 13, almost like that E12 suggestion, although obviously that's by ECL20 instead of 13. Bards would cap at 5ths (and a more limited list). Paladins and Rangers still hit 4ths, but later obviously.

Edit: I suppose you could, instead of dead levels, grant a bonus spell slot and spell known, just so that it feels more rewarding to level for the classes with no class features.

[daremetoidareyo]

Get rid of prestige class prereqs?

[Doctor Despair]

Get rid of prestige class prereqs?

I think that makes more sense to do on a case by case basis. I dislike most feat prereqs, as they're often just taxes, but spellcasting requirements are much more palatable, as spellcasting is both generally accessible and useful. Removing all of them and just doing E6 normally would unleash some very powerful class features, I think, not least of which would be the advanced casting of Sublime Chord/Ur Priest/etc

[Godskook]

So I like the concept of E6 but am often depressed since it mostly kills off prestige classes. Using E12 seems like it might be more of a moderate magic setting rather than the low magic of E6 but you don't dive head first into full on tipsy verse or similar crazy power levels, magic hasn't quite gotten to the end all be all of standard 3.X and instead is just starting to outstrip martials. Alternatively I have seen on here people suggest going full 3.x just not allow anything above 6th level spells pre-epic, the slots are still their for 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells but can only be used for meta magic purposes.

On the face of it these seem like very similar rule variations but should provide quite a different feel. I was wondering what people's thoughts on these two variations are?

The vast majority of prestige classes are mechanically just "more specialization + more power" or "hybridize two classes, essentially".

So that gives us 3 varieties of missing prestige classes to address, mechanically:

1.specialization

2.power

3.hybridization

For specialization, these can often be added as some form of feat or feat-chain, assuming you can successfully extract the specialization without adding the power.

For power, that defeats the purpose of E6 in a mighty way to start giving characters, especially casters, access to post-6 power.

For hybridization, there's actually an easy way to solve this that's often done by homebrewers: Allow players to pay XP to gestalt. This gives you most of the hybridization power without having to fiddle with prestige classes in the first place.

Want a daggerspell mage? Wizard//Rogue. Want an unseen seer? Diviner Wizard//Rogue. Want an Eldritch Knight or Spellsword? Fighter//Wizard or Fighter//Sorcerer (or 15 other options)

Hybrid prestige classes are an attempt to patch in gestalting with the default game, and it's primarily rendered obsolete by allowing gestalts.

Want more variety? Allow "Tristalt" or "Quadstalt", i.e., allow as many class-tracks as you want.

[Quertus]

On the face of it these seem like very similar rule variations but should provide quite a different feel. I was wondering what people's thoughts on these two variations are?

E12 and "capped at 6th level spells (pre-epic)" (get the slots for metamagic vs. half-progression after 3rd level spells?) may seem very similar to the *caster*, but not so much to the muggle.

Also, one *has* epic potential; the other does not.

One requires more thought into the edge cases than the other.

So, it depends - what do you care about?

[Mechalich]

So I like the concept of E6 but am often depressed since it mostly kills off prestige classes. Using E12 seems like it might be more of a moderate magic setting rather than the low magic of E6 but you don't dive head first into full on tipsy verse or similar crazy power levels, magic hasn't quite gotten to the end all be all of standard 3.X and instead is just starting to outstrip martials. Alternatively I have seen on here people suggest going full 3.x just not allow anything above 6th level spells pre-epic, the slots are still their for 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells but can only be used for meta magic purposes.

On the face of it these seem like very similar rule variations but should provide quite a different feel. I was wondering what people's thoughts on these two variations are?

One of the reasons for choosing E6 is that it caps output at 3rd level spells. Many of the spells above that immediately begin to break capacity of martials to function. 4th level spells include such nasty goodies as Black Tentacles, Lesser Planar Binding, and Charm Monster that can quickly tear apart a game.

If you wish to allow characters to reach higher levels numerically while still preventing the accumulation of game-breaking powers an alternate solution is to simply ban full casters. Tier 3 half-caster classes only reach 6th level spells over the course of their progression and are generally acknowledged to be effectively balanced against typical published challenges (especially in PF, which has a whole bunch of them).

[ThanatosZero]

Prestige Classes under E6 could be utilised like 2e kits, which were utilised for single, dual and multiclasses or lately the 5e subclasses.

For example: Both the Eldritch Knight and the Abjurant Champion could be combined into a fighter kit, which requires one to have multiclassed with a arcane spellcasting class, for to have all it's arcane relevant class features to become active.
Such a Abjurant Knight combines the lack of spellcasting progression at it's first level as the the Eldritch Knight, but gains all the advantages of the Abjurant Champion.

A Wizard 1/Abjurant Knight (Fighter) 5 would have 5/6 Wizard Spellcasting and 5 BAB


Now most surprisingly for me is, that my class variants and ACFs would fit perfectly for E6 gishes and arcane tricksters.
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?626538-New-Alternative-Class-Features-for-base-and-prestige-classes

[liquidformat]

One of the reasons for choosing E6 is that it caps output at 3rd level spells. Many of the spells above that immediately begin to break capacity of martials to function. 4th level spells include such nasty goodies as Black Tentacles, Lesser Planar Binding, and Charm Monster that can quickly tear apart a game.

If you wish to allow characters to reach higher levels numerically while still preventing the accumulation of game-breaking powers an alternate solution is to simply ban full casters. Tier 3 half-caster classes only reach 6th level spells over the course of their progression and are generally acknowledged to be effectively balanced against typical published challenges (especially in PF, which has a whole bunch of them).

Yeah, that could be a good idea too, it seems like you don't have to jump through all the hoops of evaluating and recreating full casters. The odd outlier there is warmage as they are tier 3 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?600635-Why-each-class-is-in-its-tier-2019-update!) and get 9s, also Truenamer and maybe shadow caster might be a concern...

On a side note I have been playing around with trying to setup Dragon Age setting for 3.X and that actually fits well with restricting to tier 3.

[sreservoir]

E12 doesn't really work, since essentially the highest level cap that supports a game roughly similar to E6 is roughly 8th, with a little bit of work. 6th is probably the level which requires the fewest adjustments to keep things from falling apart, not a coincidence.

Inclusion of 4th-level spells already has ways to fundamentally change a setting, since it makes dimension door (+ scrying) and lesser planar ally widely available. (Also, 8 levels means demonologist with a standard 5/3 entry gets lesser planar binding.) This is a pretty big step up from 3rd-level spells, which by comparison does not have campaign breakers staring you in the face on PHB 194. You kind of need to work around those, but it's manageable as long as you keep track of where everything is going, and Core is the worst-balanced part of the game anyway.

Once you get to 5th-level spells, though, the game gives up all pretense of not cracking wide open, with general access to things like lesser planar binding, teleport, plane shift, tree stride, commune, contact other plane, magic jar, fabricate, permanency, and (un)hallow.