Sorcerer fix: Font of Magic as a no action?

[borg286]

If sorcerers could translate sorcery points and spell slots as a no action rather than a bonus action they they would view their resources more like spell points rather than 2 separate pools (spell slots and sorcery points).
This would make them more like the psion in 3.5 which had a very different feel than a wizard, and would have the same differentiating feel on the sorcerer. The warlock feels like a different spellcaster than the others for obvious reasons. The wizard feels different thanks to the way he prepares spells from an expanded spell book. Divine casting feels different, and I wish druid casting felt different than cleric casting. I think a spell-point approach would make sorcerers feel different.

What drawbacks could there be if we eliminated the bonus action cost of font of magic?

[Nifft]

Is a lack of spell-slots a problem for Sorcerers at your table?

My experience is pretty limited but that doesn't feel like the place where Sorcerer lets the player down.

[heavyfuel]

The only drawback there would is that Sorcerers, a really strong class, would now be stronger.

But honestly, it's a minor power bump at best.

It does mean that now you can do something like convert SP into slots, then quicken a spell, then throw a Cantrip. But that would burn your SP really fast, so it kinda balances out. And since SP conversion is pretty bad overall (for example, if you convert a 3rd level slot into SP, you can only gain 3 SP, which you can then only use for a 2nd level slot) I don't think it would be used all too often.

Plus, it wouldn't fix the whats, IMO, the major issue with the Sorcerer (and the Warlock for that matter). Too few spells known means you're bound to only pick up things that generally good, but nothing that is situationally great. Tasha's subclasses already fixed that, though.

[sophontteks]

I would enjoy it a lot, but this is just quality of life stuff.

[Kane0]

Personally I prefer just using spell points for a sorcerer, at least for 1st-5th level spells.
I also get rid of the second sorcery point pool so theres no double up of points and less ability to go nova, balancing that with recovering a few SP (prof bonus) on a short rest.
Works well for my table

[borg286]

Spell point conversion doesn't feel like it would be at a loss at all.
Imagine if you simply burn everything into spell points at the beginning of the day. If you have a short day then you've got lots of fireballs every round, and you can start with a big spell. If you have a long day you can ration on only spending 5 spell points per short rest. With metamagic you twin levitate on yourself and a fellow caster, then throw out cantrips every round from the safety from the sky.
The playstyle of the bard/cleric/druid/wizard are that they are thinking in terms of spell slots and what big spell to use, and what low-level spells to use and to balance them for a given fight. The Free Font of Magic Sorcerer™ does his planning at spell selection time, and just has an allowance of spell points for each fight. The only thing stopping this kind of playstyle is that they could run out of spell slots before he'd have to use bonus actions to replenish the slots. I think the original design intent was leaning towards this spell point style of play that was explored with the Psion and Spell Points: https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spellPoints.htm but the designer didn't anticipate the action economy and scarcity of bonus actions.

[Gale]

Probably the most obvious issue is that it makes the infamous Warlock Sorcerer multiclass way stronger.

If you aren't already familiar, Warlocks get their spell slots back on a short rest. You can convert these into sorcerer points, and then into "sorcerer" spell slots. While there is a maximum amount of sorcerer points you can have at any one time there is no maximum amount of spell slots you can have. Therefore a "Sorlock" can theoretically gain a massive number of spell slots by converting Warlock spell slots to Sorcerer spell slots in their down time.

Granted, there are a couple of issues here. Taking a long rest causes you to lose any extra spell slots you gained from this conversion process; and not taking a long rest (generally) comes with serious exhaustion penalties. But there are ways to get around this. Heck, even just playing an elf who only has to long rest for 4 hours each night, and can spend the other 4 hours gaining a few extra spell slots, is huge.

If Flexible Casting required no action to use then not only does the Sorlock have a huge pool of spell slots to work from, but they now have a huge pool of sorcerer points. They can basically spam metamagic every turn with no downside. Normally, they would at least have to spend a bonus action occasionally to convert spell slots; but that's no longer the case.

Not sure if this is a huge issue for normal sorcerers though. But I don't think having it be a bonus action was all that bad to begin with.

[heavyfuel]

Probably the most obvious issue is that it makes the infamous Warlock Sorcerer multiclass way stronger.

To be fair, coffeelocks are pretty much TO territory, so I don't expect many DMs allowing them in the first place.

[Jerrykhor]

It would be a slight buff as Sorcerers now can convert and cast bonus action spells, but there aren't many of them. Divine Soul will benefit more from this. Most people use Font of Magic out of combat though, so its not much of an issue.

The bigger problem is that the conversion rates are a net negative, there are too little Sorcery Points, and too few spells known.

[borg286]

Probably the most obvious issue is that it makes the infamous Warlock Sorcerer multiclass way stronger.

If you aren't already familiar, Warlocks get their spell slots back on a short rest. You can convert these into sorcerer points, and then into "sorcerer" spell slots. While there is a maximum amount of sorcerer points you can have at any one time there is no maximum amount of spell slots you can have. Therefore a "Sorlock" can theoretically gain a massive number of spell slots by converting Warlock spell slots to Sorcerer spell slots in their down time.

Granted, there are a couple of issues here. Taking a long rest causes you to lose any extra spell slots you gained from this conversion process; and not taking a long rest (generally) comes with serious exhaustion penalties. But there are ways to get around this. Heck, even just playing an elf who only has to long rest for 4 hours each night, and can spend the other 4 hours gaining a few extra spell slots, is huge.

If Flexible Casting required no action to use then not only does the Sorlock have a huge pool of spell slots to work from, but they now have a huge pool of sorcerer points. They can basically spam metamagic every turn with no downside. Normally, they would at least have to spend a bonus action occasionally to convert spell slots; but that's no longer the case.

Not sure if this is a huge issue for normal sorcerers though. But I don't think having it be a bonus action was all that bad to begin with.

The brokenness of a coffeelock is beside the point. The point of this thread is to discuss the problems of removing the bonus action requirement of font of magic. This change does nothing to improve or weaken a coffeelock.

Regarding spamming metamagic every turn, explain to me how this is broken. Prior to my change they already were capable of quickening every round, provided they have enough spell points, say around level 8 they could quicken for 4 rounds straight. After my change they could theoretically do this at an earlier level, say level 4, but then they'd burn through their entire day's resources in just 3 rounds. Shouldn't sorcerers be capable of going nova better than every other class? Even at level 4, they could do quicken twice. With my change it bumps it to 4 times. OooOOhh, 2 more cantrips on round 3 and 4. Those rounds don't matter as much as round 1 and 2. All told, I don't see how this change makes them more broken. Mostly what it does is make it so they can ignore the pesky labels of spell slots and just liquidate all their spells into points, and just cast what they feel like.


It would be a slight buff as Sorcerers now can convert and cast bonus action spells, but there aren't many of them. Divine Soul will benefit more from this. Most people use Font of Magic out of combat though, so its not much of an issue.

The bigger problem is that the conversion rates are a net negative, there are too little Sorcery Points, and too few spells known.

What do you mean the conversion is a net negative. If I convert a 3rd level spell into points I get 5 points. I can then convert those 5 points back into a 3rd level spell. No loss other than bonus actions. With my change the problem of too few sorcery goes away entirely, as you just have a big pool. The problem of spells known was an oversight of the designers not making the sorcerer subclasses come with a spells-known list to free them up to diversify. Being able to freely convert between spell points and slots means that they'll have to pick spells known more wisely. I wish a sorcerer had a tad more freedom swapping out spells known when they level. This would enable them to shift what spells cover blast, what covers control, what covers damage mitigation and so forth.

[Asisreo1]

What do you mean the conversion is a net negative. If I convert a 3rd level spell into points I get 5 points. I can then convert those 5 points back into a 3rd level spell. No loss other than bonus actions.
Unfortunately, that's not how that works.

Converting a 3rd level slot to points gives 3 points. But going from points to slots costs 5 points. Its a net negative if you constantly switch back and forth and its to discourage a player from simply converting them all at the end of a long rest and basically having spell points.

[Hytheter]

What do you mean the conversion is a net negative. If I convert a 3rd level spell into points I get 5 points.

No, you don't. You only get points equal to the slots level, in this case three.


Converting a Spell Slot to Sorcery Points.

As a bonus action on your turn, you can expend one spell slot and gain a number of sorcery points equal to the slot's level.

As an aside, my method would be to allow Sorcerers to cast spells directly from SP rather than having to convert them to slots. That would also solve Warlock-related cheese somewhat.

[Gale]

The brokenness of a coffeelock is beside the point. The point of this thread is to discuss the problems of removing the bonus action requirement of font of magic. This change does nothing to improve or weaken a coffeelock.

Regarding spamming metamagic every turn, explain to me how this is broken. Prior to my change they already were capable of quickening every round, provided they have enough spell points, say around level 8 they could quicken for 4 rounds straight. After my change they could theoretically do this at an earlier level, say level 4, but then they'd burn through their entire day's resources in just 3 rounds. Shouldn't sorcerers be capable of going nova better than every other class? Even at level 4, they could do quicken twice. With my change it bumps it to 4 times. OooOOhh, 2 more cantrips on round 3 and 4. Those rounds don't matter as much as round 1 and 2. All told, I don't see how this change makes them more broken. Mostly what it does is make it so they can ignore the pesky labels of spell slots and just liquidate all their spells into points, and just cast what they feel like.

My points were specifically in regards to coffeelocks. I don't think the proposed change would be overpowered for a normal sorcerer. But admittedly, I'm not deeply familiar with the class and how it functions so I can't provide a ton of accurate insight about how balanced this decision would be.

However, I will say that the idea of Sorcerers just having a massive pool of points that's used both to cast all their spells and enhance them with metamagic is admittedly a bit daunting. It would give players more freedom, sure. But it would probably make the class less desirable for newcomers to play. Spell slots make sense and are manageable. An ambiguous pool of magic points isn't. It's less about game balance and more about keeping the game running smoothly for everyone.

Personally, I like the idea that spell slots are a bit hard to immediately convert into other useful resources, like sorcerer points for metamagic, or higher level spell slots for when you need to cast Fireball one more time. It forces the player to plan ahead. If you need another high level spell slot then you better be prepared to pay up with those sorcerer points and give up your bonus action too. Having all your sorcerer points and spell slots be immediately convertible with no action cost feels like it eliminates that thought and strategy. But that's just my opinion. I don't think it's broken either way, but I prefer the way it works now.

[borg286]

No, you don't. You only get points equal to the slots level, in this case three.



As an aside, my method would be to allow Sorcerers to cast spells directly from SP rather than having to convert them to slots. That would also solve Warlock-related cheese somewhat.
This entire time I have been running under the assumption that converting slots into points used the same lookup table. Only now do I realize I was mistaken. That completely changes things. Wow. Mind=blown.