Blade of Disaster and Forcecage

[MarkVIIIMarc]

I have disadvantage on all my Sage Advice searches so I am asking.

Can Blade of Disaster pass through Forcecage?

I think yes because:

Blade of Disaster is a 9th level spell which says it can pass through ANY barrier including a wall of force. What is Forcecage but a wall of force.

I think no because a Wall of Force is a particular spell in D&D and if they wanted it to pass through a Forcecage also they should have said so.

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Forcecage
7th-level evocation

Casting Time: 1 action

Range: 100 feet
Components: V, S, M (ruby dust worth 1,500 gp)

Duration: 1 hour

An immobile, invisible, cube-shaped prison composed of magical force springs into existence around an area you choose within range. The prison can be a cage or a solid box, as you choose.

A prison in the shape of a cage can be up to 20 feet on a side and is made from 1/2-inch diameter bars spaced 1/2-inch apart.
A prison in the shape of a box can be up to 10 feet on a side, creating a solid barrier that prevents any matter from passing through it and blocking any spells cast into or out from the area.
When you cast the spell, any creature that is completely inside the cage’s area is trapped. Creatures only partially within the area, or those too large to fit inside the area, are pushed away from the center of the area until they are completely outside the area.
A creature inside the cage can’t leave it by nonmagical means. If a creature tries to use teleportation or interplanar travel to leave the cage, it must first make a Charisma saving throw. On a success, the creature can use that magic to exit the cage. On a failure, the creature can’t exit the cage and wastes the use of the spell or effect. The cage also extends into the Ethereal Plane, blocking ethereal travel.
This spell can’t be dispelled by Dispel Magic


Blade of Disaster
9th-level conjuration
Casting Time: 1 bonus action
Range: 60 feet
Components: V, S
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute
You create a blade-shaped planar rift about 3 feet long in an unoccupied space you can see within range. The blade lasts for the duration. When you cast
this spell, you can make up to two melee spell attacks with the blade, each one against a creature, loose object, or structure within 5 feet of the blade. On a
hit, the target takes 4d12 force damage. This attack scores a critical hit if the number on the d20 is 18 or higher. On a critical hit, the blade deals an extra
8d12 force damage (for a total of 12d12 force damage).
As a bonus action on your turn, you can move the blade up to 30 feet to an unoccupied space you can see and then make up to two melee spell attacks
with it again.
The blade can harmlessly pass through any barrier, including a wall of force.

[MaxWilson]

I'd say the spell has already made clear by statement ("any barrier") and by example ("including a Wall of Force") that it can pass through anything. It's not necessary to go through and individually enumerate all the barriers it can cut through (Otiluke's Resilient Sphere, Wall of Force, Forcecage, the wall of a house, a prison door, etc.).

It passes through anything.

[UnintensifiedFa]

I'd say the spell has already made clear by statement ("any barrier") and by example ("including a Wall of Force") that it can pass through anything. It's not necessary to go through and individually enumerate all the barriers it can cut through (Otiluke's Resilient Sphere, Wall of Force, Forcecage, the wall of a house, a prison door, etc.).

It passes through anything.

This is my interpretation as well. "Including" makes me believe that a Wall of Force is just an example... Plus it's a 9th level spell, if anything should be able to pass through a forcecage, it ought to be this.

[MrStabby]

Is a forcecage a barrier?

yes

Is it therefore a subset of "any barrier"

yes

Can it therefore be passed through?

Yes.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

It sounds terrifying being trapped in a Forcecage with Blades spinning about! I may use that as a DM sometime.

Sometimes I try to play both sides of a debate so I'm ready for whatever folks play.

The specifics of Forcecage specifically saying it blocks "any spells cast into or out from the area" seem like they are being over ridden by the generalities of apparently vague statements in Blade of Disaster.

[MaxWilson]

The specifics of Forcecage specifically saying it blocks "any spells cast into or out from the area" seem like they are being over ridden by the generalities of apparently vague statements in Blade of Disaster.

"Specific beats general" is a pretty lousy metarule in that it just leads to arguments about whether X or Y is more specific. In this case I feel that Black Blade is Disaster is more specific (it explains the interaction with "barriers", not just spells in general, and also gives a concrete example--it spends significantly more total wordage on its potential interaction with forcewall spells like Forcecage than Forcecage does on breaching spells like Black Blade of Disaster) but it's frustrating to have to guess, isn't it?

[MarkVIIIMarc]

"Specific beats general" is a pretty lousy metarule in that it just leads to arguments about whether X or Y is more specific. In this case I feel that Black Blade is Disaster is more specific (it explains the interaction with "barriers", not just spells in general, and also gives a concrete example--it spends significantly more total wordage on its potential interaction with forcewall spells like Forcecage than Forcecage does on breaching spells like Black Blade of Disaster) but it's frustrating to have to guess, isn't it?

Thank you very much. I love the debate.

The party I'm DMing for now is averaging level 16 and its been a pretty bloody campaign. They're OP and generally go around kicking butt but every so often some Demilich comes by and they attack piecemeal or just by luck use the exact wrong tactics.

I might be able to put a scare into them with that combo and it would go by pretty fast in a semi-combat setting. They know Forcecage though so I have to be ready for the debate from all sides and at least give reasonable and consistent answers.

[LudicSavant]

I have disadvantage on all my Sage Advice searches so I am asking.

Can Blade of Disaster pass through Forcecage?

I think yes because:

Blade of Disaster is a 9th level spell which says it can pass through ANY barrier including a wall of force. What is Forcecage but a wall of force.

I think no because a Wall of Force is a particular spell in D&D and if they wanted it to pass through a Forcecage also they should have said so.

*********************
Forcecage
7th-level evocation

Casting Time: 1 action

Range: 100 feet
Components: V, S, M (ruby dust worth 1,500 gp)

Duration: 1 hour

An immobile, invisible, cube-shaped prison composed of magical force springs into existence around an area you choose within range. The prison can be a cage or a solid box, as you choose.

A prison in the shape of a cage can be up to 20 feet on a side and is made from 1/2-inch diameter bars spaced 1/2-inch apart.
A prison in the shape of a box can be up to 10 feet on a side, creating a solid barrier that prevents any matter from passing through it and blocking any spells cast into or out from the area.
When you cast the spell, any creature that is completely inside the cage’s area is trapped. Creatures only partially within the area, or those too large to fit inside the area, are pushed away from the center of the area until they are completely outside the area.
A creature inside the cage can’t leave it by nonmagical means. If a creature tries to use teleportation or interplanar travel to leave the cage, it must first make a Charisma saving throw. On a success, the creature can use that magic to exit the cage. On a failure, the creature can’t exit the cage and wastes the use of the spell or effect. The cage also extends into the Ethereal Plane, blocking ethereal travel.
This spell can’t be dispelled by Dispel Magic


Blade of Disaster
9th-level conjuration
Casting Time: 1 bonus action
Range: 60 feet
Components: V, S
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute
You create a blade-shaped planar rift about 3 feet long in an unoccupied space you can see within range. The blade lasts for the duration. When you cast
this spell, you can make up to two melee spell attacks with the blade, each one against a creature, loose object, or structure within 5 feet of the blade. On a
hit, the target takes 4d12 force damage. This attack scores a critical hit if the number on the d20 is 18 or higher. On a critical hit, the blade deals an extra
8d12 force damage (for a total of 12d12 force damage).
As a bonus action on your turn, you can move the blade up to 30 feet to an unoccupied space you can see and then make up to two melee spell attacks
with it again.
The blade can harmlessly pass through any barrier, including a wall of force.

The "including Wall of Force" is redundant clarification.

Is "Forcecage" in category "any barrier?" Yes.

Can it pass through "any barrier?" Yes.

[MrStabby]

"Specific beats general" is a pretty lousy metarule in that it just leads to arguments about whether X or Y is more specific. In this case I feel that Black Blade is Disaster is more specific (it explains the interaction with "barriers", not just spells in general, and also gives a concrete example--it spends significantly more total wordage on its potential interaction with forcewall spells like Forcecage than Forcecage does on breaching spells like Black Blade of Disaster) but it's frustrating to have to guess, isn't it?

I think that they couldnt go and list the things it could cut through, as the more it was likely to be interpreted as I.e. rather than e.g. the harder it would be to add new spells later.

So for me the fun thing here is possibly the ability to cut through Leomund's tiny hut. That could be a shock.

[brainface]

The big catch, to me, is that it can move to an unoccupied space you can see, so certain fairly low level spells/mundane barriers can't block it but can block your ability to direct it.

[MaxWilson]

I think that they couldnt go and list the things it could cut through, as the more it was likely to be interpreted as I.e. rather than e.g. the harder it would be to add new spells later.

So for me the fun thing here is possibly the ability to cut through Leomund's tiny hut. That could be a shock.

It shouldn't be a shock. Leomund's Tiny Hut, unlike Wall of Force, has no "It is immune to all damage" clause in the first place. And even if the DM rules that it is immune to damage, it also has no "can’t be dispelled" clause. You don't need a 9th level spell to penetrate Leomund's Tiny Hut.

[MrStabby]

It shouldn't be a shock. Leomund's Tiny Hut, unlike Wall of Force, has no "It is immune to all damage" clause in the first place. And even if the DM rules that it is immune to damage, it also has no "can’t be dispelled" clause. You don't need a 9th level spell to penetrate Leomund's Tiny Hut.

Oh I know, I was just thinking a powerful enemy advancing on the hut under cover of invisibility... people start getting sliced up inside...

[MarkVIIIMarc]

That is a sweet idea. The party I DM for has used the Tiny Hut for a long time. I've had a little fun with it. One time burying it under ice in a Frost Giant's lair. The first time I think I dispelled it with two what I thought would be easy bad guys. Stinking Cloud almost led to a TPK.

[mushysnugs]

It sounds terrifying being trapped in a Forcecage with Blades spinning about! I may use that as a DM sometime.

Sometimes I try to play both sides of a debate so I'm ready for whatever folks play.

The specifics of Forcecage specifically saying it blocks "any spells cast into or out from the area" seem like they are being over ridden by the generalities of apparently vague statements in Blade of Disaster.

with the way force cage is worded you wouldn't be able to cast it directly into the cage, however because of the way blade of disaster is worded on a subsequent turn you could move it into the force cage.