skull lord and assume supernatural ability

[newguydude1]

Triple Skulls (Ex) Each round as a swift action, a skull lord can use one of these abilities: bone beckon, bone shard, or create servitor. If a skull lord loses a skull (see skull loss), it loses access to one of the abilities.
...
Create Servitor (Su) A skull lord’s creator skull can create a bonespur (page 156), a serpentir (page 158), or a skeleton from nearby bones and bone shards. Undead created by this ability are utomatically under the skull lord’s control. A skull lord can have a number of undead under the control of its creator skull equivalent to an EL 7 encounter. For example, a skull lord might have four bonespurs, three serpentirs, or a cloud giant skeleton under its control. It could also control a mix of undead, such as five human skeletons, three bonespurs, and a serpentir

i highly recommend you take a look at mm5 p.154 and see the monster entry directly. the 3 su abilities are a subset of the triple skulls ability. these three su abilities are not bolded but italicized and indented.

question1: can i use assume supernatural ability: create servitor even though i dont have access to the triple skulls (ex) ability?
for the purpose of this question, lets say i have a custom polymorph spell that does not give me the ex attacks of my form and lets me turn into undead.

question2: if i use polymorph any object to turn myself into a skull lord, do i get access to all 3 su abilities?
for the purpose of this question, lets say we are going by the rules of the game ruling that lets pao turn you into undead.

[Kayblis]

This is an unusual entry, but still covered under its specific rules. The Su abilities are separate abilities that can be acquired separatedly from the Ex main ability Triple Skulls. But, as a specific call, all three Su abilities state they originate from the skull related to them, and the skulls are not part of the base statblock, instead being granted by the Ex ability. This means that you require both to work properly, even if you can gain them in separate. Gaining only the Ex ability grants useless skulls, and gaining only the Su abilities grants unusable powers. It's as if you assumed a supernatural power from a creature that has a (Su) Poison ability to their bite, but you somehow have no bite attack.

[newguydude1]

This is an unusual entry, but still covered under its specific rules. The Su abilities are separate abilities that can be acquired separatedly from the Ex main ability Triple Skulls. But, as a specific call, all three Su abilities state they originate from the skull related to them, and the skulls are not part of the base statblock, instead being granted by the Ex ability. This means that you require both to work properly, even if you can gain them in separate. Gaining only the Ex ability grants useless skulls, and gaining only the Su abilities grants unusable powers. It's as if you assumed a supernatural power from a creature that has a (Su) Poison ability to their bite, but you somehow have no bite attack.

you got your base assumption wrong. the skulls are not from the ex ability. its from the creature itself.

the creature has 3 skulls
the creature has a natural ability called "skull loss" that makes him lose a skull after losing 1/3rd hp.
the creature has an ex ability called triple skulls that lets him use one of 3 su abilities as a swift action. this ex ability does not give him any skulls. afaict this ex ability gives 3 su abilities.
the creature has 3 su abilities under the triple skulls ex ability.

so in your interpretation, the triple skull ex ability doesnt do anything. so not having it doesnt do anything. just like not having the skull loss ability doesnt do anything.

[Calthropstu]

you got your base assumption wrong. the skulls are not from the ex ability. its from the creature itself.

the creature has 3 skulls
the creature has a natural ability called "skull loss" that makes him lose a skull after losing 1/3rd hp.
the creature has an ex ability called triple skulls that lets him use one of 3 su abilities as a swift action. this ex ability does not give him any skulls. afaict this ex ability gives 3 su abilities.
the creature has 3 su abilities under the triple skulls ex ability.

so in your interpretation, the triple skull ex ability doesnt do anything. so not having it doesnt do anything. just like not having the skull loss ability doesnt do anything.

He is correct. You need both the ex and the su. Having read the statblock for the previous disguise self question, the triple skulls ability enables the 3 powers. I am so glad PF fixed this problem with a hard "nope."

[newguydude1]

He is correct. You need both the ex and the su. Having read the statblock for the previous disguise self question, the triple skulls ability enables the 3 powers. I am so glad PF fixed this problem with a hard "nope."

if the ex "enables" the 3 powers then you only need the ex. because the su is part of the ex ability. the ex creates 3 su effects.
if su is not part of the ex ability then you dont need the ex ability because as i said the ex ability doesnt give the skulls the su ability requires. the monsters own anatomy does.

[Crake]

if the ex "enables" the 3 powers then you only need the ex. because the su is part of the ex ability. the ex creates 3 su effects.
if su is not part of the ex ability then you dont need the ex ability because as i said the ex ability doesnt give the skulls the su ability requires. the monsters own anatomy does.

Not necessarily. If they were all Ex, you could make that argument, but the fact that one is Ex and the other is Su necessitates that they are split into multiple abilities to denote that one is mundane and the other is magical.

[Darg]

Each round as a swift action, a skull lord can use one of these abilities

Seems pretty straight forward here. Get the Ex and you get all 3 or get one Su and cast it as a standard.


Not necessarily. If they were all Ex, you could make that argument, but the fact that one is Ex and the other is Su necessitates that they are split into multiple abilities to denote that one is mundane and the other is magical.

Where do the rules state that it necessitates that?

[gogogome]

Seems pretty straight forward here. Get the Ex and you get all 3 or get one Su and cast it as a standard.

I agree with this ruling.

The Ex ability lets you use one of the 3 Su abilities. So regardless of whether you have the Su ability or not the Ex ability lets you use them.
The Su abilities are in fact separate abilities and not just a subset of the Ex ability because it says so in the text description. Each of those 3 Su abilities are Su abilities.

So in short, if you polymorph into a Skull Lord, because you gain all Ex attacks of that form, you can use all 3 Su abilities.
If you use Assume Supernatural Ability, you get access to one of the Su abilities and you don't need the Ex ability.

[Crake]

Where do the rules state that it necessitates that?

By the fact that Ex are non-magical, and Su are magical? The three heads ability remains functional in an AMF, while the Su abilities do not?

[icefractal]

If you got the one of the Su's without the Ex, it might be a standard action to use, since the swift action part is in the Ex. Not that this is a big problem for creating minions.

If they're indented as part of the ability, then I think as far as RAW you'd get them all from getting the Ex. Honestly not sure why it even is an Ex, the whole thing would be simpler if this was just one big Su ability.

[newguydude1]

If you got the one of the Su's without the Ex, it might be a standard action to use, since the swift action part is in the Ex. Not that this is a big problem for creating minions.

right cause su abilities are standard action unless otherwise noted. this convinced me. i thought because the action required to use is in the ex ability description i thought it was necessary, but your right, its not necessary. it just makes it a swift action.

it seems majority of people here says you dont need the ex ability to use the su ability. thats a nice surprise.

alright thanks guys.

[Khatoblepas]

The Skull Lord doesn't actually HAVE those abilities, though, otherwise they would be represented in its stat block. Reading the monster entries says:


Many creatures have unusual abilities. A monster entry breaks these abilities into special attacks and special qualities. The latter category includes defenses, vulnerabilities, and other special abilities that are not modes of attack. A special ability is either extraordinary (Ex), spell-like (Sp), or supernatural (Su). Additional information (when needed) is provided in the creature’s descriptive text.

A Skull Lord only has Three Skulls (Ex) in its stat block, so that's all it possesses for the purposes of other rules interacting with it. Possessing Three Skulls grants you three supernatural abilities, but being a skull lord on its own, without Three Skulls, does not. Yes, this does mean that a skull lord cannot do its 1/month ritual by RAW.

The only thing that explicitly grants a creature an inherent special ability is its stat block itself.

[Gruftzwerg]

*looks for a place to hide/cover from flying rulebooks* ^^

I would abuse the Skull Loss ability. It seems to be a natural ability so the best way to get the desired ability is to lose some HP and heal up. The Skull Loss ability does give you the skull and the ability when you regain hp.

*HIPS* :smallcool:

[newguydude1]

The Skull Lord doesn't actually HAVE those abilities, though, otherwise they would be represented in its stat block. Reading the monster entries says:



A Skull Lord only has Three Skulls (Ex) in its stat block, so that's all it possesses for the purposes of other rules interacting with it. Possessing Three Skulls grants you three supernatural abilities, but being a skull lord on its own, without Three Skulls, does not. Yes, this does mean that a skull lord cannot do its 1/month ritual by RAW.

The only thing that explicitly grants a creature an inherent special ability is its stat block itself.

thats like saying a feat that gives you a su ability is not part of the monsters stat block.

if a creature has a su ability from a feat, he has the su ability. if a creature has a su ability from a ex ability, then he has the su ability.

[Khatoblepas]

But if its the Three Skulls that grants the abilities, you can't use Assume Supernatural Ability to get it without Three Skulls, since you don't get any ability that isn't part of the monsters stat block. Otherwise you could be like "I take the form of a creature with vow of poverty as a feat" and assume supernatural ability the vow of poverty. No, Three Skulls contains three abilities you can use, the skull Lord without Three Skulls cannot use them.

[newguydude1]

Otherwise you could be like "I take the form of a creature with vow of poverty as a feat" and assume supernatural ability the vow of poverty.

thats exactly how things work. turn into a creature who has vow of poverty as a racial feat and then use assume supernatural ability vow of poverty.

and the 3 abilities are part of the monster stat block. everything in the monster manual entry is part of the skull lords stat block. i dont know what your getting at here.

[Calthropstu]

thats exactly how things work. turn into a creature who has vow of poverty as a racial feat and then use assume supernatural ability vow of poverty.

and the 3 abilities are part of the monster stat block. everything in the monster manual entry is part of the skull lords stat block. i dont know what your getting at here.

Neither polymorph nor assume natural ability gives you feats. If a monster had an su that emulated a feat it's different.
In this case, you polymorph into a skull lord and are granted the ex ability "three skulls." This Ex grants access to the abilities of each of the 3 skulls. However, you need assume supernatural ability in order to use them. You can only pick one to assume per time you take the feat.

[Falontani]

Not necessarily. If they were all Ex, you could make that argument, but the fact that one is Ex and the other is Su necessitates that they are split into multiple abilities to denote that one is mundane and the other is magical.

just piping up on this single thing; look at the Krenshar in the Monster Manual.

[Crake]

just piping up on this single thing; look at the Krenshar in the Monster Manual.

fair call.

[newguydude1]

Neither polymorph nor assume natural ability gives you feats. If a monster had an su that emulated a feat it's different.
In this case, you polymorph into a skull lord and are granted the ex ability "three skulls." This Ex grants access to the abilities of each of the 3 skulls. However, you need assume supernatural ability in order to use them. You can only pick one to assume per time you take the feat.

nope. you still havent proven triple skulls is required. multiple other posters says its not required and given their proof so im gonna go with them.

i also mispoke about vow of poverty. if a creature has vow of poverty as a racial feat (because asa only allows you to get the feats from "kinds of creatures", not specific creature)

then you cant take asa:vow of poverty. you can take asa:ac bonus and get the ac bonus from vop. you can take asa:exalted strike. you can take asa:deflection. you can take asa:damage reduction. you can take asa:true seeing. but in all cases you dont need to have the feat vop nor its prerequisites sacred vow.

[Calthropstu]

nope. you still havent proven triple skulls is required. multiple other posters says its not required and given their proof so im gonna go with them.

i also mispoke about vow of poverty. if a creature has vow of poverty as a racial feat (because asa only allows you to get the feats from "kinds of creatures", not specific creature)

then you cant take asa:vow of poverty. you can take asa:ac bonus and get the ac bonus from vop. you can take asa:exalted strike. you can take asa:deflection. you can take asa:damage reduction. you can take asa:true seeing. but in all cases you dont need to have the feat vop nor its prerequisites sacred vow.

Three Skulls is ex. You get it from polymorphing, simple as that.

Edit: I stand corrected. You don't. And, since it is required (since it is the ex special quality that specifically states it grants these su abilities) you literally can't get them, unless there is something that grants ex special qualities. If you're the gm, feel free to change this, if your gm rules otherwise so be it. But RAW? Since it is the ex special quality that states it grants those su abilities, you can't get them without it. Feel free to rule otherwise.

[Crake]

Three Skulls is ex. You get it from polymorphing, simple as that.

Edit: I stand corrected. You don't. And, since it is required (since it is the ex special quality that specifically states it grants these su abilities) you literally can't get them, unless there is something that grants ex special qualities. If you're the gm, feel free to change this, if your gm rules otherwise so be it. But RAW? Since it is the ex special quality that states it grants those su abilities, you can't get them without it. Feel free to rule otherwise.

This is 99% chance not being used with polymorph, so whether you get it from polymorph or not is irrelevant.

[Gruftzwerg]

I'm surprised that the discussion is still going on here. Didn't you take my last post serious? (I know I was joking a bit, but the message was seriously meant).

1. Skull Loss is a Natural Ability and thus the easiest way to get all the SU abilities.

If a skull lord is healed so that its hit points once again exceed one-third or two-thirds of its full normal total, the appropriate skull reappears. The skull lord then regains the use of the ability granted by the skull.

2. The SU abilities require the regular Standard Action to activate (since nothing else is mentioned).

3. The Three Skulls ability doesn't give you the SU abilities (as said it is the NA Skull Loss that does this).
This ability solely grants you the ability to use one of the mentioned SU abilities as swift action every turn. I don't see any indicator that the "three skulls" ability does grant you the SU abilities. It is not like VoP where it states "what you gain". Imho the text implies that is is just an action economy ability.

Conclusion: Play a masochist and hurt yourself, then heal up to get the skulls back and gain the abilities associated with the skulls.

[Darg]

Considering the format of the Triple Skulls (Ex) entry the Su abilities are not abilities the creature possesses, but rather abilities brought about by the using of the ability Triple Skulls.

[Gruftzwerg]

Considering the syntax of the Triple Skulls (Ex) entry the Su abilities are not abilities the creature possesses, but rather abilities brought about by the using of the ability Triple Skulls.

Syntax Format (?) yeah, but the text doesn't indicate it. On the other hand the Natural Ability "Skull Loss" gives you the heads and the abilities according to your current HP. Imho it is obvious that the Skull Loss ability is the one giving the extra skulls and their abilities.


edit: not sure if syntax is the right word here..^^

[gogogome]

Considering the syntax of the Triple Skulls (Ex) entry the Su abilities are not abilities the creature possesses, but rather abilities brought about by the using of the ability Triple Skulls.

It does not matter whether the Su ability is obtained via a feat, class feature, race, or Ex ability. Once the creature has the feat, class feature, race, or Ex ability, he also "possesses" the Su abilities that result from it.

Don't treat innate racial abilities as if they're magic items.

[InvisibleBison]

1. Skull Loss is a Natural Ability and thus the easiest way to get all the SU abilities.

You can't regain something that you never had in the first place.

[Gruftzwerg]

You can't regain something that you never had in the first place.

Not part of the requirement. Its part of the effect. And thus, if a part of an effect doesn't apply, the rest still applies.
So, even if you don't re-gain the ability, you still gain the ability. The important condition here for the ability is your current hp and not if you did lost the ability beforehand.

[Darg]

It does not matter whether the Su ability is obtained via a feat, class feature, race, or Ex ability. Once the creature has the feat, class feature, race, or Ex ability, he also "possesses" the Su abilities that result from it.

Don't treat innate racial abilities as if they're magic items.

Well, there you go. Polymorph grants Triple Skull (Ex) and therefore the Su abilities with it.

[InvisibleBison]

Not part of the requirement. Its part of the effect. And thus, if a part of an effect doesn't apply, the rest still applies.
So, even if you don't re-gain the ability, you still gain the ability. The important condition here for the ability is your current hp and not if you did lost the ability beforehand.

No, that is just wrong. The ability doesn't cause you to gain anything; the word "gain" doesn't even appear in the text. It only says "regain".

[Gruftzwerg]

No, that is just wrong. The ability doesn't cause you to gain anything; the word "gain" doesn't even appear in the text. It only says "regain".


If a skull lord is healed so that its hit points once again exceed one-third or two-thirds of its full normal total, ...
The "if" part sets the condition when the ability starts to work.

Followed by the effect part:

...the appropriate skull reappears. The skull lord then regains the use of the ability granted by the skull.
The effect doesn't explicitly require you to have lost the ability. It is the effect that you "regain" it. And as said, effect parts that are nonfunctional don't stop the rest of the effect to apply. "Regain" is the short form of "to get back; to recover possession ". While the "back/recover" part of the effect doesn't apply in our situation, the "gain" part still applies.

It's like an undead creature with rage. Just because it doesn't have a CON score, doesn't cause the rage ability to become nonfunctional. It still has (3 + "-"= 3) 3 rounds duration and all other modifiers besides from CON still apply.

Same here, just because you don't gain it "back", doesn't stop you from gaining it.

I hope the explanation is comprehensible. I'm not sure if I did find the best words to describe the situation here..^^

[InvisibleBison]

The "if" part sets the condition when the ability starts to work.

Followed by the effect part:

The effect doesn't explicitly require you to have lost the ability. It is the effect that you "regain" it. And as said, effect parts that are nonfunctional don't stop the rest of the effect to apply. "Regain" is the short form of "to get back; to recover possession ". While the "back/recover" part of the effect doesn't apply in our situation, the "gain" part still applies.

It's like an undead creature with rage. Just because it doesn't have a CON score, doesn't cause the rage ability to become nonfunctional. It still has (3 + "-"= 3) 3 rounds duration and all other modifiers besides from CON still apply.

Same here, just because you don't gain it "back", doesn't stop you from gaining it.

I hope the explanation is comprehensible. I'm not sure if I did find the best words to describe the situation here..^^

You can't just ignore part of an ability when you're interpreting it. The text says "regain", so if you can't regain the ability then nothing happens.

[Calthropstu]

Well, there you go. Polymorph grants Triple Skull (Ex) and therefore the Su abilities with it.

Might want to reread polymorph. It grants ex special attacks, but not special qualities. Triple Skulls is a SQ.

[Calthropstu]

The "if" part sets the condition when the ability starts to work.

Followed by the effect part:

The effect doesn't explicitly require you to have lost the ability. It is the effect that you "regain" it. And as said, effect parts that are nonfunctional don't stop the rest of the effect to apply. "Regain" is the short form of "to get back; to recover possession ". While the "back/recover" part of the effect doesn't apply in our situation, the "gain" part still applies.

It's like an undead creature with rage. Just because it doesn't have a CON score, doesn't cause the rage ability to become nonfunctional. It still has (3 + "-"= 3) 3 rounds duration and all other modifiers besides from CON still apply.

Same here, just because you don't gain it "back", doesn't stop you from gaining it.

I hope the explanation is comprehensible. I'm not sure if I did find the best words to describe the situation here..^^

Error. It regains the ability GRANTED BY THE SKULL. It is THE SKULL that grants the ability, inherited from the three skulls ex sq which is not gained.

[newguydude1]

Well, there you go. Polymorph grants Triple Skull (Ex) and therefore the Su abilities with it.

even if you dont have the ex ability the monster's su abilities are fair game for assume supernatural ability if you assume its form.

[Gruftzwerg]

Error. It regains the ability GRANTED BY THE SKULL. It is THE SKULL that grants the ability, inherited from the three skulls ex sq which is not gained.

Nope, it is not referring to the "Three Skulls" ability.

The skull lord then regains the use of the ability granted by the skull.
It refers to the skulls that they grant the abilities and not to the "Three Skulls" ability. That is not what the text says.

[Khatoblepas]

Might want to reread polymorph. It grants ex special attacks, but not special qualities. Triple Skulls is a SQ.

Re-read the monster entry, Triple Skulls is a SA!

even if you dont have the ex ability the monster's su abilities are fair game for assume supernatural ability if you assume its form.

Where does it state that a Skull Lord has Bone Beckon etc outside of Triple Skulls? It's not in its stat block, and you don't get Skull Loss if you polymorph into one.

[newguydude1]

Where does it state that a Skull Lord has Bone Beckon etc outside of Triple Skulls? It's not in its stat block, and you don't get Skull Loss if you polymorph into one.

i explained it in your own vow of poverty example.

creature who has vow of poverty
i assume the form of said creature
i grab assume supernatural ability:exalted strike
i can now exalted strike even though i dont have vow of poverty.

as gogogome pointed out your treating innate monster abilities like magic items so you can somehow say the monster doesnt have it. he has it. just like a monster with vow of poverty has exalted strike. if you do assume supernatural ability vow of poverty you get everything. if you do assume supernatural ability exalted strike you only get exalted strike.

bone beckon is in the stat block. it references the skull lord personally many, many, many times along with his skulls. you have absolutely no basis or grounds to say an su ability obtained via an ex ability is not part of the creatures stat block.

by your logic a creature who obtains a su ability via a class feature doesnt have the ability. nonsense. why stop there? why not say 100% of the creatures ex and su abilities are not his stat block but the result of his race and therefore the creature has no ex or su abilities since theyre all derived from race.


You learn to use a single supernatural ability of another kind of creature while assuming its form through a polymorph self spell or a similar effect.
all skull lords have create servitor. doesnt matter if its his ex ability that grants him the su ability. he still has that su ability. and when i turn into a skull lord and grab assume supernatural ability i can use it.

simple logic
anyone who has triple skulls has create servitor
all skull lords has triple skulls as a racial ability
therefore skull lords have create servitor
therefore i can assume the form of a skull lord and use create servitor with assume supernatural ability.
you cannot say "skull lords dont have create servitor". its a racial su ability. they have it.

vow of poverty is a terrible example. ask yourself this. if a creature has fiery burst as a racial feat. does he have a su ability called fiery burst? y/n.
the answer is y.
let me remind you all feats are ex abilities unless noted otherwise.

[Khatoblepas]

bone beckon is in the stat block. it references the skull lord personally many, many, many times along with his skulls. you have absolutely no basis or grounds to say an su ability obtained via an ex ability is not part of the creatures stat block.

Ahem:

SA:
For the purpose of determining the effect of feats and
the application of templates, the creature’s special attacks
are given here even if they appear elsewhere in the statistics
block. Specific NPCs don’t include this information.



The final portion of the statistics block consists of para-
graphs explaining special abilities noted earlier

For the purposes of feats, the special attack entry in the stat block is what you use to see what you can do as that monster. No Bone Beckon, Create Servitor, or Bone Shard in that entry, so no Assume Supernatural Ability (Create Servitor).

[newguydude1]

Ahem:




For the purposes of feats, the special attack entry in the stat block is what you use to see what you can do as that monster. No Bone Beckon, Create Servitor, or Bone Shard in that entry, so no Assume Supernatural Ability (Create Servitor).

i literally dont see the point your trying to make.

could someone else try to explain what this person is trying to say?
how does that quote say su abilities obtained from a racial ex ability is not a "supernatural ability of another kind of creature"
how does that quote even say su abiltiies obtained from feats is not part of that creatures stat block? did i understand what hes saying right?

the quote is just saying its listing the abilities twice or more. once in the feat list, once in the stat block, for ease of access. how is this relevant to anything here?

let me just break it down sentence by sentence

For the purpose of determining the effect of feats and the application of templates,
for determining the effects of feats,
for the application of templates. as in for dms who want to apply templates to monsters.


the creature’s special attacks are given here
the creatures special attacks are given here.

even if they appear elsewhere in the statistics block
even if the creatures special attacks appeared elsewhere in the statistics block.

so the whole thing is still inside the creatures statistics block. absolutely none of them is outside it.

so to determine the effects of feats and to apply templates, the creature special attacks are listed here even though theyve been previously listed at another part of the statistic block.

wtf does this have to do with su abilities and ex abilities that grant su abilities?

i genuinely dont understand the argument here.


his earlier quote

Many creatures have unusual abilities. A monster entry breaks these abilities into special attacks and special qualities. The latter category includes defenses, vulnerabilities, and other special abilities that are not modes of attack. A special ability is either extraordinary (Ex), spell-like (Sp), or supernatural (Su). Additional information (when needed) is provided in the creature’s descriptive text.
just says special attacks and special qualities are ex, sp, and su.

yet somehow these two quotes prove that create servitor is outside the monsters stat block.
wtf am i missing?



Might want to reread polymorph. It grants ex special attacks, but not special qualities. Triple Skulls is a SQ.

triple skulls is listed as a special attack twice.


special actions triple skulls
...
sa triple skulls



edit:
ok i think i might understand what hes saying?

i think he thinks that the "stat block" ends right above "skull loss". so everything from "skull loss" to "create spectral rider" is not part of the creatures stat block.
so hes saying "create spectral rider", an unbolded unindented su abilitiy, is also not part of the skull lords stat block and therefore unavailable for assume supernatural ability.

if thats what he is saying he is wrong. because "skull loss" is part of the creature stat block. that line that separates it from possessions doesnt mean the stat block ends there. it just separates the special ability descriptions from the other stuff.

[Falontani]

When you polymorph you don't gain access to an individual's feats unless they are inherent to the form, such as the free bonus feats like improved natural attack, weapon finesse, and the like. These are marked with a B. So polymorphing into an individual with vow of poverty does not grant vow of poverty unless it is inherent to the individual's form (I do not believe this is the case for any statted creature. An individual may take a feat, but that is not a part of the form, thus you may not assume supernatural ability on the feat, since the form doesn't possess the feat, the individual does. This is the same for supernatural abilities gained through class, as they are an individual's abilities.

Effectively when you polymorph into a creature, many effects happen. You take the form of a generic creature of that type, meaning you are not polymorphing into Gorag the Devastating orc barbarian 12, you are polymorphing into an orc. Then you roll a disguise check to see how well you look like Gorag the Devastating. Gorag the Devastating may possess vow of poverty and exalted strike, but a generic orc does not.

Now I don't believe any of the above matters to the case of the skull abilities.

I believe that like the rest of mm 4 and 5, the statblock is hideous, and moves things away from where they need to be. Namely Special Qualities are not all within the special Qualities section, and special attacks aren't all within the special attacks section. They have dr, immunities, resistances, and special senses, all which should be in the special Qualities section, outside of it. Spell like abilities, spellcasting, offensive auras, and similar that should be within the special attack section, are usually not within the special attack section. This makes many of these statblocks incredibly difficult for player use, and I generally have to reorient the statblock into the normal statblock in order to use the monster.

[newguydude1]

I believe that like the rest of mm 4 and 5, the statblock is hideous, and moves things away from where they need to be. Namely Special Qualities are not all within the special Qualities section, and special attacks aren't all within the special attacks section. They have dr, immunities, resistances, and special senses, all which should be in the special Qualities section, outside of it. Spell like abilities, spellcasting, offensive auras, and similar that should be within the special attack section, are usually not within the special attack section. This makes many of these statblocks incredibly difficult for player use, and I generally have to reorient the statblock into the normal statblock in order to use the monster.

i actually like the new format. i think its designed in a way thats easier to use. like if you need a spot or listen its at the top instead of needing to find it in the middle of the skill list. so its not using a character sheet format, its more of a cliff notes format and then explanations later.

i could see how it could be frustrating but i like the new format. old format is better for inputting data into a computer, new format is better for not inputting any data and having the sheet next to you and you roll manually.

[rrwoods]

i actually like the new format. i think its designed in a way thats easier to use. like if you need a spot or listen its at the top instead of needing to find it in the middle of the skill list. so its not using a character sheet format, its more of a cliff notes format and then explanations later.

i could see how it could be frustrating but i like the new format. old format is better for inputting data into a computer, new format is better for not inputting any data and having the sheet next to you and you roll manually.

I'm with you here. The information is roughly organized into when the info is relevant. Pre-combat stuff is first, then enemy-turn info like AC and saves and resistances, then own-turn information like speed and attack modes. It takes a little getting used to, but it's much easier to find stuff once you do. (I'm working on my own character sheet software currently and I like this layout so much that I've adopted it myself.)

That said, the fact that they arrange things in this way can make it difficult to determine what kind of ability something is from a design perspective, which is extremely relevant when using one of 3.5's many differently-implemented form-altering capabilities. The new format is (in my opinion) much better at running the monster, but much worse for players assuming the form of the monster.

[Calthropstu]

This entire thread belongs in the "silliest things from 3.5" thread.

[newguydude1]

This entire thread belongs in the "silliest things from 3.5" thread.

why dont you play test the thing before calling it silly. its decent at levels 1-4, but at level 5 it becomes unusably worthless.

[Calthropstu]

why dont you play test the thing before calling it silly. its decent at levels 1-4, but at level 5 it becomes unusably worthless.

Ummm. The only way that is true is if your gm allows TO and throws absurd CRs at you. I have played straight fighters from lvl 1 to 20 and found them to be perfectly fine. Sorcs are my preffered, but all classes are viable. I looked at that statblock and its Three Skulls ability looked way op for a 1st level ability. That's the level of "We fight a couple wolves, maybe a few goblins and then beat a low level boss and gain a level." That thing could solo a cr 12 encounter easily.

[newguydude1]

Ummm. The only way that is true is if your gm allows TO and throws absurd CRs at you. I have played straight fighters from lvl 1 to 20 and found them to be perfectly fine. Sorcs are my preffered, but all classes are viable. I looked at that statblock and its Three Skulls ability looked way op for a 1st level ability. That's the level of "We fight a couple wolves, maybe a few goblins and then beat a low level boss and gain a level." That thing could solo a cr 12 encounter easily.

look at it again.
create servitor has a total el cap of 7.
so thats 3 serpentirs
or 4 bonespurs

serpentirs damage output is 1d6+2. he has 8 attacks a round so thats a lot. but guess what, the average damage is 5.5 per hit. so dr5 is gonna drop that to 4 damage a round. 4. your straight fighters are gonna have something that beats dr. these guys dont. 4 damage a round. dr 10 creatures they do 0 damage.

bonespurs have a better shot at creatures with dr but they are glass. low ac, only 26 hp, only one attack a round, they gonna get chopped up real nice.

and then we have the problem of corpse hunting to get skeletons. if you want to raise actual skeletons then you need to do the whole corpse hunting thing and even then your stuck with ecl7.

so tell me how any of this can solo a cr12 encounter?

[JNAProductions]

look at it again.
create servitor has a total el cap of 7.
so thats 3 serpentirs
or 4 bonespurs

serpentirs damage output is 1d6+2. he has 8 attacks a round so thats a lot. but guess what, the average damage is 5.5 per hit. so dr5 is gonna drop that to 4 damage a round. 4. your straight fighters are gonna have something that beats dr. these guys dont. 4 damage a round. dr 10 creatures they do 0 damage.

bonespurs have a better shot at creatures with dr but they are glass. low ac, only 26 hp, only one attack a round, they gonna get chopped up real nice.

and then we have the problem of corpse hunting to get skeletons. if you want to raise actual skeletons then you need to do the whole corpse hunting thing and even then your stuck with ecl7.

so tell me how any of this can solo a cr12 encounter?

They average 1 damage per hit, not half, against DR 5 that works against their attacks.

And, just clicking some random SRD monsters...
Formians: No DR, CR up to 17.
Mephits: DR 5/Magic, CR of 3.
Devourer: No DR, CR 11.
Gray Render: No DR, CR 8.
Lillend: No DR, CR 7.
Rakshasa: DR 15/Good and Piercing, CR 10.

So, against some EL 12 encounters, your minions won't do much good.
Against others, they'll be fighting at full power.

There's no guarantee any given CR foe will have DR or not.

[newguydude1]

They average 1 damage per hit, not half, against DR 5 that works against their attacks.

And, just clicking some random SRD monsters...
Formians: No DR, CR up to 17.
Mephits: DR 5/Magic, CR of 3.
Devourer: No DR, CR 11.
Gray Render: No DR, CR 8.
Lillend: No DR, CR 7.
Rakshasa: DR 15/Good and Piercing, CR 10.

So, against some EL 12 encounters, your minions won't do much good.
Against others, they'll be fighting at full power.

There's no guarantee any given CR foe will have DR or not.

cr10 formian myrmarchs have 28ac. serpentirs have +5 to attack. they literally cannot hit except on a critical.
serpentir ac is 15. all of the fm's attacks are gonna hit unless he roles a 1.
add his fast healing 2 to that and you get the idea. serpentirs are gonna get clobbered.

higher cr has higher ac, dr, flying, or some other gimmick and stuff. i really dont see how these cr4 creatures are relevant at level 12.

[magicalmagicman]

Ummm. The only way that is true is if your gm allows TO and throws absurd CRs at you. I have played straight fighters from lvl 1 to 20 and found them to be perfectly fine. Sorcs are my preffered, but all classes are viable. I looked at that statblock and its Three Skulls ability looked way op for a 1st level ability. That's the level of "We fight a couple wolves, maybe a few goblins and then beat a low level boss and gain a level." That thing could solo a cr 12 encounter easily.

Which cr 12 encounter did you have in mind?

[Calthropstu]

Which cr 12 encounter did you have in mind?

Just about any standard beatstick model would be obliterated by the 32 attacks per round. Sure, their damage is low. But we both know how little that matters as soon as wbl comes into play. It's a cr 7 right? So as a pc, you get 7th lvl wbl. Buy a few buff reusables and that 1d6+2 becomes much greater. Getting this at lvl 1 is so much overkill it isn't even funn

[newguydude1]

Just about any standard beatstick model would be obliterated by the 32 attacks per round. Sure, their damage is low. But we both know how little that matters as soon as wbl comes into play. It's a cr 7 right? So as a pc, you get 7th lvl wbl. Buy a few buff reusables and that 1d6+2 becomes much greater. Getting this at lvl 1 is so much overkill it isn't even funn

its a cr4

why dont you just show us how these serpentirs would kill a formian myrmarch which is 2 crs lower than what you claim they can solo.

and its 24 attacks per round.

i suggest you review all the monsters and abilities involved to get the numbers straight before you start doing "math"

just show us how a wizard who spends all of his wbl trying to beef up three cr4 monsters is "op" and capable of "soloing cr 12 encounters"
and show us how its better than a normal necromancer using animate dead to create a 20hd skeleton and outfitting that with wealth by level.

edit:actually its two 20hd skeletons cause you get 4x your caster level in undead hd. two twenty hd skeletons v.s. three serpentirs. show us how the serpentirs are "op" compared to animate dead. and keep in mind scrolls of both stone to flesh and polymorph any object can create any skeleton you want.

[magicalmagicman]

Just about any standard beatstick model would be obliterated by the 32 attacks per round. Sure, their damage is low. But we both know how little that matters as soon as wbl comes into play. It's a cr 7 right? So as a pc, you get 7th lvl wbl. Buy a few buff reusables and that 1d6+2 becomes much greater. Getting this at lvl 1 is so much overkill it isn't even funn

Isn't a Formian Myrmarch a "beatstick model"?

Could you show us a "beatstick model" that gets obliterated by three cr4 creatures?

[XionUnborn01]

{Scrubbed}

[TheShapechanger]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

I do. I plan on using this to give my Psion access to undead once he can hit manifester level 12 with Metamorphosis.

I don't think I'm a garbage player. Nor do I think this is idiotically shoehorned, obnoxious, or annoying.

I think the real obnoxious and annoying player is someone who insults others and puts down other people's way of playing when other people's own DM has fully accepted their way of playing. If his DM allows it, who are you to call the way a person plays the game idiotic, obnoxious, or annoying?

[magicalmagicman]

I do. I plan on using this to give my Psion access to undead once he can hit manifester level 12 with Metamorphosis.

I don't think I'm a garbage player. Nor do I think this is idiotically shoehorned, obnoxious, or annoying.

I think the real obnoxious and annoying player is someone who insults others and puts down other people's way of playing when other people's own DM has fully accepted their way of playing. If his DM allows it, who are you to call the way a person plays the game idiotic, obnoxious, or annoying?

It always amazes me to see someone posting solely to spew hate towards other people's way of playing. Especially in a thread that doesn't concern them in any what way or form. Needless to say I will never share a table with such people.

If your creating a regular skeleton with the ability, your hd limit is a hard 17 because 17hd skeletons are cr7. So I do think it is a good idea for a psion, or anyone with polymorph for that matter, to always pick this trick up since there is no cost for this free 17hd skeleton.

[Calthropstu]

Isn't a Formian Myrmarch a "beatstick model"?

Could you show us a "beatstick model" that gets obliterated by three cr4 creatures?

8 attacks, 1d6 +2 +5 to hit. I thought it was 4, it was 4 of the other creature op mentioned, 3 for this one.

8 attacks, it's all being controlled by a pc. Skull Lord is cr 7, so 7th level wbl. You add several buffs from wands, scrolls etc. Haste for 27 attacks, +6 to hit +2 to damage. Desecrate + portable altar for +2 to hit.
Surround and flank for additional +2.
So we are looking at +10 to hit, but still pitiful damage. But we've also spent virtually nothing. A little bit of fixing is needed.

Wand of bulls strength gets us to +12/+4 on each skeleton. Prayer hits +13. wand Magic fang (easy to umd) gets us to +14/1d6+6.
At 24 attacks, I am fairly certain average 228 damage potential can fell some cr 12s. Pretty sure we can get much higher, and it hasn't even cracked half a lvl 7's wbl.

[magicalmagicman]

8 attacks, 1d6 +2 +5 to hit. I thought it was 4, it was 4 of the other creature op mentioned, 3 for this one.

8 attacks, it's all being controlled by a pc. Skull Lord is cr 7, so 7th level wbl. You add several buffs from wands, scrolls etc. Haste for 27 attacks, +6 to hit +2 to damage. Desecrate + portable altar for +2 to hit.
Surround and flank for additional +2.
So we are looking at +10 to hit, but still pitiful damage. But we've also spent virtually nothing. A little bit of fixing is needed.

Wand of bulls strength gets us to +12/+4 on each skeleton. Prayer hits +13. wand Magic fang (easy to umd) gets us to +14/1d6+6.
At 24 attacks, I am fairly certain average 228 damage potential can fell some cr 12s. Pretty sure we can get much higher, and it hasn't even cracked half a lvl 7's wbl.

How are the Serpentirs casting the Wands of Bull's Strength and Wands of Prayers? You said they fell cr12 creatures "solo" and those buffs have to be cast in combat.
Lets say you do get the buffs on them. +13 to hit at 28ac, that's a 70% chance to miss. 228 x 0.3 = 69 damage potential. But that's assuming the Formian myrmarch stands still instead of moving around with its 50ft move speed.

Core only, 7th level wizards with access to scrolls can get their hands on two 12hd hydra skeletons.
Less extreme example, the 7th level wizards should have two Frost Giant skeletons.
By your logic 7th level wizards at WBL is beyond "silly". Especially since unlike the Serpentirs, they can be further buffed with corpsecrafter feats. Which means Animate Dead needs to be removed from the game.

[Calthropstu]

How are the Serpentirs casting the Wands of Bull's Strength and Wands of Prayers? You said they fell cr12 creatures "solo" and those buffs have to be cast in combat.
Lets say you do get the buffs on them. +13 to hit at 28ac, that's a 70% chance to miss. 228 x 0.3 = 69 damage potential. But that's assuming the Formian myrmarch stands still instead of moving around with its 50ft move speed.

Core only, 7th level wizards with access to scrolls can get their hands on two 12hd hydra skeletons.
Less extreme example, the 7th level wizards should have two Frost Giant skeletons.
By your logic 7th level wizards at WBL is beyond "silly". Especially since unlike the Serpentirs, they can be further buffed with corpsecrafter feats. Which means Animate Dead needs to be removed from the game.

No. The Skull Lord solos the encounter. It is the skull lord buffing them.

And yes, Animate Dead is fairly broken as well.

Edit:

The problem with all of this is that unlike animate dead, the skull lord has this as infinite use. It's not just "I create three serpentirs," it's "I create 3 serpentirs. Oh no they all died. Well, I create 3 more serpentirs. Oh no, they all died. Well, 3 more."

Even without buffs, that will eventually kill anything without dr 10 or renewable healing.

[newguydude1]

No. The Skull Lord solos the encounter. It is the skull lord buffing them.

And yes, Animate Dead is fairly broken as well.

Edit:

The problem with all of this is that unlike animate dead, the skull lord has this as infinite use. It's not just "I create three serpentirs," it's "I create 3 serpentirs. Oh no they all died. Well, I create 3 more serpentirs. Oh no, they all died. Well, 3 more."

Even without buffs, that will eventually kill anything without dr 10 or renewable healing.

dont undead have a rule that if it dies it stays dead and can only be revived via revive undead spell?

and at cr12 virtually everything has dr and renewable healing. it actually might be literally everything. havent seen a monster without either in forever.

[InvisibleBison]

and at cr12 virtually everything has dr and renewable healing. it actually might be literally everything. havent seen a monster without either in forever.

The Monster Manual contains 15 CR 12 monsters. Seven of them -the elder black pudding, displacer beast pack lord, frost worm, kraken, colossal monstrous scorpion, purple worm, and roper - lack both damage reduction and regeneration/fast healing. Additionally, the adult brass dragon and young adult bronze dragon only have DR 5/magic.

[magicalmagicman]

The problem with all of this is that unlike animate dead, the skull lord has this as infinite use. It's not just "I create three serpentirs," it's "I create 3 serpentirs. Oh no they all died. Well, I create 3 more serpentirs. Oh no, they all died. Well, 3 more."

Even without buffs, that will eventually kill anything without dr 10 or renewable healing.

By this logic, Summon Elemental Reserve Feat is too "silly" as well.

[Calthropstu]

dont undead have a rule that if it dies it stays dead and can only be revived via revive undead spell?

and at cr12 virtually everything has dr and renewable healing. it actually might be literally everything. havent seen a monster without either in forever.

1st paragraph: Yes, certainly. But the skull lord can create more. What, just because it can only control 3, doesn't mean that's all it can create. If the 3 are destroyed, it can then create more right?

2nd paragraph:
Werewolf lord in human form, cr 14 no dr, no healng.
Any lvl 12 humanoid.
Advanced giant squid, cr 10 no dr, no healing.
Golden Protector, dr 5/ magic. Cr 13. Dr overcome with magic fang.

And these were just off the srd searched in 15 minutes.

[Calthropstu]

The Monster Manual contains 15 CR 12 monsters. Seven of them -the elder black pudding, displacer beast pack lord, frost worm, kraken, colossal monstrous scorpion, purple worm, and roper - lack both damage reduction and regeneration/fast healing. Additionally, the adult brass dragon and young adult bronze dragon only have DR 5/magic.

Also, at least 1 of them, the black pudding, would not think to investigate the endless stream of 3x serpentirs coming to attack it.

[newguydude1]

1st paragraph: Yes, certainly. But the skull lord can create more. What, just because it can only control 3, doesn't mean that's all it can create. If the 3 are destroyed, it can then create more right?

where you gonna get the bones at. if you have infinite bones then i refer you to magicalmagicmans skeletons.

whatever im done talking about 3 cr4 creatures being super op. if the dm cannot handle a pc with 3 cr4 creatures at 12th level then you are playing a seriously underpowered campaign. in the level of planar binding with surge of fortune and artificial corpses, 3 cr4 creatures breaking the game... yeah.

as someone who has used 10 bison zombies in a game at level 4 and ditched them all because of how horrid and worthless they were, if your table cant handle a pc using 3 cr4 creatures at 12th level then whatever. 3 cr4 creatures is op as hell for your table.

just make a new thread asking everyone just how op a player with 3 cr4 creatures at 12th level is. see how many tables are really that underpowered.

edit: in fact i make 1000 scythers of thoon at 10th level and i use none of them in combat because of how worthless they are. but yup, 3 cr4 creatures is game breaking.
edit2: at 11th level i am charging wtih a steel predator with overland flight, girallon's blessing, persistent wraithstrike and persistent bite of the weretiger for a grand total of 300 damage a round and even this isnt that good and i get my ass kicked. but yeah, 3 cr4 creatures, thats totally op.

[Calthropstu]

where you gonna get the bones at. if you have infinite bones then i refer you to magicalmagicmans skeletons.

whatever im done talking about 3 cr4 creatures being super op. if the dm cannot handle a pc with 3 cr4 creatures at 12th level then he seriously needs to get good. in the level of planar binding with surge of fortune and artificial corpses, 3 cr4 creatures breaking the game... yeah.

as someone who has used 10 bison zombies in a game at level 4 and ditched them all because of how horrid and worthless they were, if your table cant handle a pc using 3 cr4 creatures at 12th level then whatever. 3 cr4 creatures is op as hell for your table.

just make a new thread asking everyone just how op a player with 3 cr4 creatures at 12th level is. see how many tables are really that underpowered.

edit: in fact i make 1000 scythers of thoon at 10th level and i use none of them in combat because of how worthless they are. but yup, 3 cr4 creatures is game breaking.

12th level? You're talking about 1st level. I was talking about 7th level. How much do bones cost? "I stuff 1000 corpses into my bag of holding. I raid graveyards until I have 1000." What's the gold cost? NOTHING.

We're not talking about 3 cr 4s. We're talking infinite waves of 3 cr 4s. Your ability to gauge usefulness of minions is severely weak. A group of enlarged bison using stampede can literally take down an army properly buffed.

Proper use of minions can obliterate games. Infinite free buffable minions can easily break things.

Edit:
examples: I cast fly and invisibility on each. I send them into town. They attack. After they reach town, I create 3 more. I send them charging toward the gate. As soon as they reach the gate, I create 3 more. I send thrm charging at the gate. I keep going until all defenders are dead, or they are no longer dealing damage to the defenders. I then create a set of stairs against the wall for the now uncontrolled serpentirs to go over. Town destroyed. If no further damage is being done, I just create a few hundred while traveling and leave them in the road because why not. They're uncontrolled but what do I care? It doesn't even cost me entire corpses, just a few bone fragments.
And hey, more towns exist. In the meantime, I will kill random passerbys because xp. And oh look.. I ran into a bunch of uncontrolled serpentirs who can't touch me because I am flying. Let's go ahead and kill them for xp. Doesn't matter thst I created them, they're uncontrolled....

[newguydude1]

12th level? You're talking about 1st level. I was talking about 7th level. How much do bones cost? "I stuff 1000 corpses into my bag of holding. I raid graveyards until I have 1000." What's the gold cost? NOTHING.

We're not talking about 3 cr 4s. We're talking infinite waves of 3 cr 4s. Your ability to gauge usefulness of minions is severely weak. A group of enlarged bison using stampede can literally take down an army properly buffed.

Proper use of minions can obliterate games. Infinite free buffable minions can easily break things.

Edit:
examples: I cast fly and invisibility on each. I send them into town. They attack. After they reach town, I create 3 more. I send them charging toward the gate. As soon as they reach the gate, I create 3 more. I send thrm charging at the gate. I keep going until all defenders are dead, or they are no longer dealing damage to the defenders. I then create a set of stairs against the wall for the now uncontrolled serpentirs to go over. Town destroyed. If no further damage is being done, I just create a few hundred while traveling and leave them in the road because why not. They're uncontrolled but what do I care? It doesn't even cost me entire corpses, just a few bone fragments.
And hey, more towns exist. In the meantime, I will kill random passerbys because xp. And oh look.. I ran into a bunch of uncontrolled serpentirs who can't touch me because I am flying. Let's go ahead and kill them for xp. Doesn't matter thst I created them, they're uncontrolled....

lets see
zombie bison group 1 died to mounted units kiting them.
zombie bison group 2 died to a spined devil
zombie bison group 3 died to a guecubu
zombie bison group 4 died to 2 enemy wizards that cast command undead on more than half of them
zombie dire bat group 1 failed to do jack against spined devils.
zombie bison group 5 died to a single narzugon kiting them on land

...and wtf? your saying uncontrolled serpentirs wont kill you immediately and instead fight for you and you get xp from their kills?

i used to make riding dog zombies at 2nd level and bison zombies at 4th level but they were significantly inadequate. serpentirs is a small upgrade to them. if theyre so powerful they curb stomp cr12 encounters at your table then whatever. the tricks i come up with is not meant to be used in low op games.

[Calthropstu]

...and wtf? your saying uncontrolled serpentirs wont kill you immediately and instead fight for you and you get xp from their kills?
.

No. I am saying that you create more AFTER they reach town and are already engaged.

You then create more making them uncontrolled (but still engaged) in order to attack other parts of the town. Eventually you swarm the town with uncontrolled undead.

Then you travel. You create some serpentirs. And oops, I created a 4th serpentir. The first one is now uncontrolled so it attacks. You kill it, gaining xp. Wash rinse repeat. Looking at what you posted, it was EXACTLY what I thought. You are going up against things far above your level, and are doing exactly what you should not be doing and your gm is custom targetting your character.