Sorcerer: Aberrant Mind vs Clockwork Soul?

[Merudo]

With the release of Tasha's, the Sorcerer can finally learn an actually respectable number of spells, if they pick the Aberrant Mind or Clockwork Soul origin.

I'm debating picking either Aberrant Mind or Clockwork Soul for my next Sorcerer, and both look powerful mechanically. I'm having trouble choosing one though.

The Clockwork Soul gets a superior spell list including Armor of Agathys, Aid, Lesser & Greater Restoration, and especially Wall of Force. They also get the nifty Restore Balance ability, which can negate annoying effects such as magic resistance.

The Aberrant Mind gets a lesser spell list, although Dissonant Whispers combines wonderfully with the Twin Metamagic. They also get Psionic Sorcery, which can allow the spamming of the spells & can substitute for the Subtle Metamagic to a degree. The options for Psionic Sorcery are limited though, with Dissonant Whispers, Tasha’s Hideous Laughter, Suggestion, Evard's Black Tentacles, and Synaptic Static being quite decent choices.

[TheMango55]

Clockwork is probably better in combat but in social and intrigue situations the aberrant mind is godlike.

[Asmerv]

I'm very excited for both. I think Clockwork leans more support/frontliner and Aberrant more social/utility but that's probably not news to anyone.

One thing I noticed with Aberrant - the 6th level ability feels so central to the theme and what the class wants to do that levels 1-5l might feel underwhelming. I know I'dd be impatient to finally get to be psionic feeling. Further, since the 6th level ability is just a better Subtle spell, it discourages you from grabbing Subtle spell for your metamagics. You either don't get to do your awesome subtle social stuff until 6th level or you get Subtle and deal with the redundancy on levels 6 and 7 until you finally swap it out at level 8.

I know the class is just loaded already but I kinda wish psionic sorcery kicked in at level 1. At least Metamagic Adept would go a long way to bridge the gap until then.

[borg286]

Regarding swapping out spells, my renaissance man build highlights lots of great options for aberrant mind.
Regarding twinning Dissonant whispers, it also works with Command. Command is more protective by taking up someone's turn and also being incredibly more versatile. Here is a list of commands to use:

Betray
Burp (on a dragon)
Fall/Trip
Flee
monologue/sing
Dance/Tango
Confess(bypass zone of truth, DM may confess squat)
Cower
cartwheel
Spin
Dismiss/Juggle (lose concentration, spells specify 'Dismiss' as an option)
Undress/Strip/Doff (includes dropping weapon)

Cooperate
Leave
Scream
Pardon
Approach
Drop(See Undress instead)
Grovel
Halt

Here is a thread i made for it
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?612030-Clever-uses-for-Command

[MrStabby]

Both are very strong, both will invite comparisons with wizards.

Clockwork soul really feels wizard like with access to spells like wall of force, animate objects and being able to get spells like shield, banishment and absorb elements through subclass abilities freeing up spells known.

I think you will end up with a sorcerer with much the same spells as an optimised wizard and a similar feel. It's kind of like you swap metamagic for subclass abilities and arcane recovery... The wierd thing is that the sorcerer then feels like a less specialist version of the wizard with less by way of rituals - if you want that focus on the awesome abjuration and transmutation spells then abjuration wizard seems better. That said, if you want a character for banishing demons, this is the go-to guy.

Aberrant mind seems more it's own thing. You will actually be using spells like dissonant whispers that the wizard cant get, your level 6 ability does overlap a bit with arcane recovery as a means to cast more spells in a day but goes so much deeper as you can convert spell slots relatively efficiently to spells of the right level for you and gives you some good subtle casting options.

Interestingly I could see aberrant mind being popular for sorcerer-paladin multiclasses as an alternative to warcaster for casting with hands full.

Whilst both look to be exceptionally powerful classes I would lean towards aberrant mind simply as it seems better differentiated from the wizard.

[Merudo]

I believe the Clockwork Soul spell list is much superior to the Aberrant Mind's.

Let's compare a likely spell list at level 9:

Clockwork Soul

- Shield, Armor of Agathys
- Aid, Enhance Ability
- Dispel Magic, Counterspell
- Polymorph, Banishment
- Wall of Force, Animate Objects

All are stellar spells that I would always pick if given the choice. Armor of Agathys, Aid, and Wall of Force are all amazing and otherwise unavailable to the Sorcerer.

Compare that to

Aberrant Mind

- Dissonant Whispers, Tasha's Hideous Laughter
- Suggestion, Detect Thoughts
- Enemies Abound, Sending
- Summon Aberration, Evard's Black Tentacles
- Telekinesis, Synaptic Static

Dissonant Whispers, Suggestion, Synaptic Static are amazing.

Tasha's Hideous Laughter and Summon Aberration are decent.

The rest (Detect Thoughts, Enemies Abound, Sending, Evard's Black Tentacles, Telekinesis) is really underwhelming, and/or situational.

So essentially about half the spell list is a bust. The only great exclusive spell (Dissonant Whispers), is now easily obtainable through the Fey Touched feat.

Meanwhile, the amazing list of the Clockwork Sorcerer let them pick some great spells as their normal Sorcerer picks (10 at level 9):

- Absorb Element, Magic Missile, Disguise Self, Grease
- Invisibility, Levitate, Misty Step, Web
- Fireball, Hypnotic Pattern, Haste, Sleet Storm
- Greater Invisibility, Dimension Door

[Chronic]

Clockwork is probably better in combat but in social and intrigue situations the aberrant mind is godlike.

Meh, with subtle clockwork soul is on par.

I agree with merudo, the spell list seems innately superior for clockwork soul. The only advantage of aberrant mind is the possibility to convert spell points into spells more efficiently. Which is good but nowhere near as powerful as some people think it is. It is restricted to a small spell list, and it consume points that you would better be using on metamagic.

[sophontteks]

You can swap out the spells. When considering abberant's spells don't forget how being completely imperceptible would change how they work.

A completely imperceptible enemies abound is an amazing spell that can create total chaos. It can turn enemies against each other instead of fighting your party (casting imperceptible spells wont start combat.) My fav. is casting it in any public setting for a political assassination. They will attack anyone that walks by them and inevitably be arrested. Works even better with stealth or invisibility where you can end combat encounters before they begin.

Suggestion is a great spell, but abberants do it better. Abberant sorcerers can telepathically communicate the suggestion, removing the only tell the spell had, and significantly buffing this already amazing spells power.

Telekinesis, also imperceptible, can be re-rolled for a sorcery point since its an ability check. Also an amazing spell in ways similiar to enemies abound.

Detect thoughts is auto-win insight.

On top of all this picking up Modify Memory is a must. Abberants can rewrite memories and telpathically communicate the new memories. Since it is also imperceptible, it is a game-breaking social power that'll send the DM reeling.

[Cikomyr2]

I think Clockwork Soul is stronger. But I will have more fun playing an Aberrant Mind.

Stuff like putting Identify as one of your psionic spell, and the using a miserable Sorcery point to just identify instantaneously an item without the need of a component is just fun to role-play. You can even tell your group that the "Voices" are what told you everything.

Its not optimized. But goddamn if it isn't fun.

[Chronic]

You can swap out the spells. When considering abberant's spells don't forget how being completely imperceptible would change how they work.

A completely imperceptible enemies abound is an amazing spell that can create total chaos. It can turn enemies against each other instead of fighting your party (casting imperceptible spells wont start combat.) My fav. is casting it in any public setting for a political assassination. They will attack anyone that walks by them and inevitably be arrested. Works even better with stealth or invisibility where you can end combat encounters before they begin.

Suggestion is a great spell, but abberants do it better. Abberant sorcerers can telepathically communicate the suggestion, removing the only tell the spell had, and significantly buffing this already amazing spells power.

Telekinesis, also imperceptible, can be re-rolled for a sorcery point since its an ability check. Also an amazing spell in ways similiar to enemies abound.

Detect thoughts is auto-win insight.

On top of all this picking up Modify Memory is a must. Abberants can rewrite memories and telpathically communicate the new memories. Since it is also imperceptible, it is a game-breaking social power that'll send the DM reeling.

The telepathic suggestion and the like is a nice trick I haven't though of. For the rest of the spells subtle work the same, so not a bad feature but nothing that can be replicated. Especially because subtle is a must have anyway (I have never played a sorcerer without subtle).
I have made a doc to easily compare the possible spell list of both abberant mind and clockwork soul, and looking at it in details confort me in my preference for clockwork soul.
Don't get me wrong both have good things going, but the clockwork soul's list seems more "sturdy", you get both more spells you didn't previously had access to (31 against 21) and and more condom spells (better safe than sorry spells).
But ultimately, I don't see a gap so huge than one would automatically picked be over the other.

[Asmerv]

I'm with Cikomyr2 and sophontteks here. I think picking 'combat' spells for Aberrant Mind picks is largely a waste.

I'd rather play it like a supercharged utility warlock: grab detect magic, comprehend languages, tongues, arcane eye, sending etc. and use them liberally. You can still grab suggestion, detect thoughts, modify memory for all your social needs and grab synaptic static to spam for combat.

Ritual casting is great, but there are plenty of situations when you need to know now, not in 10 minutes, plus auto-subtle adds another layer. So I'd just abuse that super utility. You could cast arcane eye on a whim and start browsing through someone's home the entire time you're chatting with them over tea.

Overall I think both sorcerers are very capable, and excel in different ways and open up new playstyles so it's hard to compare 1:1.

[Chronic]

Hum I'm not a fan of going all the way into a gimmick. The good thing with sorcerer is they don't need to have a lot of spells to be good blasters for example, you just pick a few good ones and empowered metamagic and boom, top tier blaster. The same is true for social, a handful of social spells and subtle and you are the king of social events. Thing is, with a handful of this and a handful of that, you're starting a collection of crowns.

[Chronic]

I just did a bit of digging to find which spells casted with psionic ability are inherently better than those casted with subtle metamagic.
I found 6 spells, 1 level 1, 2 level 2, 1 level 4 and 2 level 5, which are:
-Sleep
-Detect thoughts
-Suggestion
-Confusion
-Rary's telepathic bond
-Scrying

Suggestion requires telepathic speech to be activated to be completely discreet, so a bit of setup but nothing major in social situation.

I think the real winners are sleep (only early game tho), detect thoughts and suggestion, the rest are really situation dependent, but might still come up.

[HPisBS]

All of this focus on spell lists, but hardly any mention of the rest of the subclass features - aside from Psionic Sorcery. But even the discussion on Psionic Sorcery seems to have glossed over how much more efficient that makes AM. It's what Flexible Casting should've been and then some. Dominating Persons, Holding Monsters, suspending them upside down with Telekinesis, Geas-ing (seriously, how has nobody mentioned Geas yet?!?), Modifying Memories, and exploding Synapses for just 5 sp a pop means you can spam these great spells enough to make Warlocks cry. And you're subtle with all of it.

Then, there's the utility of Telepathic Speech, giving free and infallible communication with your teammate (like a very limited Sending). Not to mention the fun you can get up to "haunting" people as they hear voices in their head for no discernable reason - even while you're miles away. (And unlike, say, the GOOlock, you can actually know how the target responds and calibrate your hijinks accordingly.)

Speaking of pseudo-Sending, the 14th lvl feature also lets you mimic multiple spells to a limited degree on the cheap. For just 1 sp each, you can get an aquatic Alter Self, a less versatile Fly, weaker See Invisibility, and weaker Freedom of Movement for 10 min. Trance of Order may be the more mechanically powerful, but effectively getting 4 extra spells known, and being able to use them for just 1 sp each / 10 min, AND not needing to concentrate on them is pretty dang useful.


Actually, I think that's the main difference here: being useful vs being powerful. So, pick your poison.

[borg286]

As a point of comparison between Dissonant Whispers (Aberrant) and Command (Clockwork) is that Dissonant is more offensive while Command is more utility and protective.

Dissonant requires Twin metamagic to remain competitive for your go-to non-concentration action and combos well with Sickening Radiance (foe makes save both when he runs into the zone as well as when his turn starts up). Dissonant Whispers gets some very effecient damage per resource expenditure: 2 spell points for 6d6 psychic damage + N opportunity Attacks (N=number of allies next to the 2 targets).

Command has more utility (Juggle, Strip, Grovel, Flee, Undersell, Overprice...) and critically forces a foe to use up their turn (Flee) thus sparing an attack that would have otherwise been spent dealing damage to the team. Command lends more towards Warlock dips as 1st level spells are more powerful as spells rather than sorcery points.

Both spells are great for triggering opportunity attacks. Both have the same costs on your daily resources (all things considered) when you target 2 foes. But Command can both target 2 foes as well as being a candidate for being quickened, whereas Dissonant Whispers can either be quickened or twinned, not both.

In general I view Command as superior to Dissonant Whispers due to the utility and damage mitigation.

[sophontteks]

As a point of comparison between Dissonant Whispers (Aberrant) and Command (Clockwork) is that Dissonant is more offensive while Command is more utility and protective.

Dissonant requires Twin metamagic to remain competitive for your go-to non-concentration action and combos well with Sickening Radiance (foe makes save both when he runs into the zone as well as when his turn starts up). Dissonant Whispers gets some very effecient damage per resource expenditure: 2 spell points for 6d6 psychic damage + N opportunity Attacks (N=number of allies next to the 2 targets).

Command has more utility (Juggle, Strip, Grovel, Flee, Undersell, Overprice...) and critically forces a foe to use up their turn (Flee) thus sparing an attack that would have otherwise been spent dealing damage to the team. Command lends more towards Warlock dips as 1st level spells are more powerful as spells rather than sorcery points.

Both spells are great for triggering opportunity attacks. Both have the same costs on your daily resources (all things considered) when you target 2 foes. But Command can both target 2 foes as well as being a candidate for being quickened, whereas Dissonant Whispers can either be quickened or twinned, not both.

In general I view Command as superior to Dissonant Whispers due to the utility and damage mitigation.

Great comparison. Take my nitpicking lightly. I think you made some great points. I never thought of how similiar these two spells are.

Saying whispers requires twin to remain a competitive non-concentration option is a bit unfair. It scales fine on allied damage. When comparing the two spells I don't think you can say one must be twinned while the other does not. They are on pretty even ground here.

I think whispers is better and there is a big big thing you missed: valid targets.

Dissonant whispers works on everything that can hear, even undead. While command only works on non-undead that can understand you. This is no small limitation.

While command is more versatile, whispers is more reliable.

[sophontteks]

Oooh. I recant my first point I totally forgot about upcasting command. Sorry

[MrStabby]

As a point of comparison between Dissonant Whispers (Aberrant) and Command (Clockwork) is that Dissonant is more offensive while Command is more utility and protective.

Dissonant requires Twin metamagic to remain competitive for your go-to non-concentration action and combos well with Sickening Radiance (foe makes save both when he runs into the zone as well as when his turn starts up). Dissonant Whispers gets some very effecient damage per resource expenditure: 2 spell points for 6d6 psychic damage + N opportunity Attacks (N=number of allies next to the 2 targets).

Command has more utility (Juggle, Strip, Grovel, Flee, Undersell, Overprice...) and critically forces a foe to use up their turn (Flee) thus sparing an attack that would have otherwise been spent dealing damage to the team. Command lends more towards Warlock dips as 1st level spells are more powerful as spells rather than sorcery points.

Both spells are great for triggering opportunity attacks. Both have the same costs on your daily resources (all things considered) when you target 2 foes. But Command can both target 2 foes as well as being a candidate for being quickened, whereas Dissonant Whispers can either be quickened or twinned, not both.

In general I view Command as superior to Dissonant Whispers due to the utility and damage mitigation.

It is worth adding that for melee based enemies command is even better as it can eat two turns - one to dash away and one to dash back again. Two turns from a level 1 spell is pretty much what you might get from Tahsa's hideous laughter before someone saves, only with extra opportunity attacks and no concentration... as well as being used for other purposes.

[Chronic]

We sure can talk about the features other than the spell list, both are good in my opinion.
Telepathic speech is fine, it gets better with a few levels under your belt since 1 minute per level is fairly bad really early. Still, means of communication is always nice to have, but being able to give psychic commands to some spells is probably the main draw here, it does take 2 round to do it tho (one for establishing the link, the other to cast the spell).
Restore balance is top notch in my opinion, you will probably consume every use of it everyday, since advantage and disadvantage are common both in and outside of combat, and it doesn't take any kind of action.

At level 6, psychic defense is good, the damage type is rare but a free dmg resistance is not bad by any means, but you probably get more of the advantage on saves which can be clutch.

You also get psionic sorcery, which is the best subclass feature, great all around, improved subtle on a limited selection of spells, better conversion rate than usual for this spells too. It does compete with metamagic options for your limited spell points pool, which is an actual problem (at least to me). I would probably still spend most of my points on metamagic, and use the feature for cool shenanigans. The lower level spells will be the most used one imo, the higher one will probably create really cool moments in the campaign, but it's unlikely you will spam them. Overall a great feature, which seems to encapsulate a lot of cool ideas and fantasies for many people's, which means Wotc probably did something good there!

For clockwork soul, I find bastion of law situational at best, I even want to say bad. Sure damage mitigation is nice, but it's very expensive and you have to pay the cost in advance. Sure once in a while you gonna prevent a concentration check, but let's be honest I would take a free cast per day of shield or absorb elements over bastion of law any day.

At 14, both subclasses have great features. Revelation in flesh is very versatile, concentration free see invisibility and flight are great. See invisibility is situational but it's the kind of effect you regret so much not having when you need it. The rest is nice, but I would probably use it sparingly.
I really really like trance of order, it may not be as great as I believe it is, but I should still be great, useful in combat and outside of combat, allowing you to bypass the ever present bad rolls when you really need something to work. Great to minimize risk in tense situation. Become expensive after the first cast per day tho.

At 18, I find warping explosion really lackluster considering it's a fairly low range self only TP with bad damage, a bad save for a mediocre crown control (with decent range, the silver lining). And it takes an action. You might use it to preserve a spell slot when you need to reposition when it's free, but using it when it's not would be wasted spell points.

On the other hand, clockwork cavalcade is pretty much a powerful 7 level spell for free. Good healing, can be split, with a targeted auto succeeding AOE dispel magic on 6th level spells or lower that can repair ANYTHING small enough to fit a 30ft cube... That is no joke. Casting it after the first use per day is really expensive

[BerzerkerUnit]

I started a thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?627961-5e-The-weakness-of-the-Clockwork-Soul)about it elsewhere, but RAW, the Clockwork soul can have difficulty using Subtle spell due to the manifestations of order.

[Valmark]

I started a thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?627961-5e-The-weakness-of-the-Clockwork-Soul)about it elsewhere, but RAW, the Clockwork soul can have difficulty using Subtle spell due to the manifestations of order.

Just pick the sound based one and there's no issue with Subtle casting.

[Kane0]

I’m rather fond of the Clockwork Soul, but honestly they’re both good.

[GorogIrongut]

For clockwork soul, I find bastion of law situational at best, I even want to say bad. Sure damage mitigation is nice, but it's very expensive and you have to pay the cost in advance. Sure once in a while you gonna prevent a concentration check, but let's be honest I would take a free cast per day of shield or absorb elements over bastion of law any day.

I can very easily see where you're coming from with this. But everytime I look at Bastion of Law, I see the combined hijinx with Armor of Agathys.
Bastion isn't temp hp, it is just a variable reduction of damage dealt.
AoA is of course very well known. Temp hp with a nasty, icy sting for the dealer.

I know it's a bit expensive, but lets posit a level 10 Clockwork Sorc throws a level 5 slot at AoA. That's 25 temp hp and 25 cold damage every time they are hit with damage. I might be tempted to use the extend metamagic on it, but that's neither here nor there.
For every hit you take, you have the option of using Bastion of Law to extend those precious AoA temporary hp. Because it extends how many times you can do Cold damage. Bastion is ultimately reliant on dice rolls, so won't always be reliable, but anyone with a slight head for math should be able to use it without any problems.

So, just for a brief example, level 10 ClockSorc meets an unfriendly CR 8 Hydra.

Hydra w/ 5 heads
172 hp
AC 15
Bite attack per head that does 10 damage at a +8 to hit.

Sorc
25 temp hp/25 cold damage
5d8 bastion of law

Now I'm not going on probabilities, just demonstrating how it could possibly work. So lets assume the Hydra gets initiative and hits with all 5 attacks.
Hit 1 10 damage reduced by 4.5 using the bastion. 25 damage dealt to Hydra.
Hit 2 10 damage reduced by 4.5 using the Bastion. 25 damage dealt to Hydra.
Hit 3 10 damage reduced by 4.5 using the Bastion. 25 damage dealt to Hydra.
Hit 4 10 damage reduced by 4.5 using the Bastion. 25 damage dealt to Hydra.

At this point the Sorc has taken 22 damage and the Hydra has taken 100 damage before you've even attacked it.

Hit 5 10 damage taken and you choose not to reduce it because AoA is going to die no matter what. 25 damage dealt to Hydra.

The Sorc has taken 32 damage total of which 25 of those were from Temp HP. The Hydra only has 47 hp left and is down a head.

The Sorceror is now free to attack as they see fit.



I'm not saying that the Bastion/AoA combo will always work that well, but the idea still intrigues me.

[borg286]

The main problem I see with bastion of law + AoA is that it is anti-sticky. Much like poleaem master discourages foes from attacking you, so does AoA. We drool over the possibility of taking out a horde of mooks as they impale themselves on our icicles. The only way to do this is by being super sticky in the first place so they have no choice but to attack us. This can be done with Booming Blade, but wouldn't work with a horde as you only have 1 reaction. Thus AoA's damage becomes a function of the number enemy attacks, and crappy against hard hitters.
I really wanted AoA to work, but I just found more bang for the buck in upcasting scorching Ray + hex + hexblade curse.

[Chronic]

I can very easily see where you're coming from with this. But everytime I look at Bastion of Law, I see the combined hijinx with Armor of Agathys.
Bastion isn't temp hp, it is just a variable reduction of damage dealt.
AoA is of course very well known. Temp hp with a nasty, icy sting for the dealer.

I know it's a bit expensive, but lets posit a level 10 Clockwork Sorc throws a level 5 slot at AoA. That's 25 temp hp and 25 cold damage every time they are hit with damage. I might be tempted to use the extend metamagic on it, but that's neither here nor there.
For every hit you take, you have the option of using Bastion of Law to extend those precious AoA temporary hp. Because it extends how many times you can do Cold damage. Bastion is ultimately reliant on dice rolls, so won't always be reliable, but anyone with a slight head for math should be able to use it without any problems.

So, just for a brief example, level 10 ClockSorc meets an unfriendly CR 8 Hydra.

Hydra w/ 5 heads
172 hp
AC 15
Bite attack per head that does 10 damage at a +8 to hit.

Sorc
25 temp hp/25 cold damage
5d8 bastion of law

Now I'm not going on probabilities, just demonstrating how it could possibly work. So lets assume the Hydra gets initiative and hits with all 5 attacks.
Hit 1 10 damage reduced by 4.5 using the bastion. 25 damage dealt to Hydra.
Hit 2 10 damage reduced by 4.5 using the Bastion. 25 damage dealt to Hydra.
Hit 3 10 damage reduced by 4.5 using the Bastion. 25 damage dealt to Hydra.
Hit 4 10 damage reduced by 4.5 using the Bastion. 25 damage dealt to Hydra.

At this point the Sorc has taken 22 damage and the Hydra has taken 100 damage before you've even attacked it.

Hit 5 10 damage taken and you choose not to reduce it because AoA is going to die no matter what. 25 damage dealt to Hydra.

The Sorc has taken 32 damage total of which 25 of those were from Temp HP. The Hydra only has 47 hp left and is down a head.

The Sorceror is now free to attack as they see fit.



I'm not saying that the Bastion/AoA combo will always work that well, but the idea still intrigues me.

It's not a bad combo but it's an heavy investment that require a few things to go your way. For my part I've a more classic approach, stay at range, stay out of trouble.

[sophontteks]

The main problem I see with bastion of law + AoA is that it is anti-sticky. Much like poleaem master discourages foes from attacking you, so does AoA. We drool over the possibility of taking out a horde of mooks as they impale themselves on our icicles. The only way to do this is by being super sticky in the first place so they have no choice but to attack us. This can be done with Booming Blade, but wouldn't work with a horde as you only have 1 reaction. Thus AoA's damage becomes a function of the number enemy attacks, and crappy against hard hitters.
I really wanted AoA to work, but I just found more bang for the buck in upcasting scorching Ray + hex + hexblade curse.

Look at it from the opposite perspective.

Does a sorcerer want to be sticky? no. A sorcerer wants to be the opposite. Really, the whole reason a polearm fighter needs to be sticky is to prevent the enemy from going after that squishy sorcerer in the back line. If Armor of Agyths is keeping enemies off of us because it is not sticky, it is doing a great job.

I can see this working really well for clockworks using stuff like twinned haste. They can setup AoA and bastion before combat to help ensure that they don't lose concentration on twinned haste without cutting into their action economy, assuming that both were set up before combat began.

[Asmerv]

I can't recall where, but I heard someone also make the following point, which I think makes it better than it seems.

You can save Bastion of Law dice until you are hit with a large single source of damage to make an otherwise impossible saving throw basically trivial. Say you have Fly cast on a few party members during a dragon fight and get hit with the breath, fail the save and absorb elements. The leftover damage might still normally be high enough to force a large save. But, bastion of Law on average reduces the DC by 11, which can turn it from a 20 to a 9.

[Chronic]

On average bastion of law reduce the DC by 4.5 for each dice used. Thing is, concentration check aren't that hard to make especially with spells like shield and absorb element (the first is to avoid making one), resilient con or warcaster.
And if you are under the effect of trance of order, it's basically a piece of cake.
Now investing 5 points in the ward is your integral ressource pool at level 5, half at ten, quarter at 20. I could see myself using one or two point for it at high level, or knowing we gonna have a big fight, but otherwise I rather spend my points on other things.

[stoutstien]

BoL is pretty nice to toss on an ally who already has good mitigation so those d8s gets stretched out. BoL and aid is probably enough prebuffing for the party barbarian and fighter so your actions are free to do other cool stuff.

[sophontteks]

On average bastion of law reduce the DC by 4.5 for each dice used. Thing is, concentration check aren't that hard to make especially with spells like shield and absorb element (the first is to avoid making one), resilient con or warcaster.
And if you are under the effect of trance of order, it's basically a piece of cake.
Now investing 5 points in the ward is your integral ressource pool at level 5, half at ten, quarter at 20. I could see myself using one or two point for it at high level, or knowing we gonna have a big fight, but otherwise I rather spend my points on other things.
Generally true, but don't forget that spell slots can be converted into metamagic points quite efficiently, and we have a new matamagic feat that is really good on sorcerers too. It should be pretty painless to just mulch up a level 2 spell and have 2 points in bastion for the adventuring day.

I don't think it's a great feature, but I think it leans clockwork sorcerers towards using twinned spell for buffs. With things like twinned haste the consequences of losing concentration is great enough to warrant layering defenses like this.

[Asmerv]

On average bastion of law reduce the DC by 4.5 for each dice used. Thing is, concentration check aren't that hard to make especially with spells like shield and absorb element (the first is to avoid making one), resilient con or warcaster.
And if you are under the effect of trance of order, it's basically a piece of cake.
Now investing 5 points in the ward is your integral ressource pool at level 5, half at ten, quarter at 20. I could see myself using one or two point for it at high level, or knowing we gonna have a big fight, but otherwise I rather spend my points on other things.


Not really true. Shield and Absorb Elements eliminate or trivialize most concentration checks, but fall short of helping with spikes. Shield can't do anything about a critical hit, and if you're hit for 70+ from a breath weapon, Absorb Elements to ~35, the DC is still 17-18 which is far from trivial.

You can save Bastion of Law for these moments. It's an additional layer of defense you otherwise have no tools to deal with.

Trance of order comes 8 levels later and doesn't do anything about saves that are higher than 10+Mod, which again Bastion of Law can step in to help cover.

[jaappleton]

I much prefer Clockwork Soul, though IMO it’s largely personal preference. Both are quite good.

The spell list, when you swap it out, includes the classic staple spells that nearly any spellcaster wants.

And their ability to spend sorcery points to create a ward of d8s is quite amazing. Yes, it has a high cost (especially considering when you get it at 6th level), but when you remember it mitigates damage to help Armor of Agathys retain the temp HP, and that it can be used as a buffer to help maintain Concentration, its quick great.

Finally, one thing everyone forgets is that the biggest buff Sorcerers got isn’t the subclasses in Tasha’s.

ITS THE MAGIC ITEMS. Bloodwell Vial? Astral Shard? Shadowfell Shard? These are radical game changers for the class.

[borg286]

I much prefer Clockwork Soul, though IMO it’s largely personal preference. Both are quite good.

The spell list, when you swap it out, includes the classic staple spells that nearly any spellcaster wants.

And their ability to spend sorcery points to create a ward of d8s is quite amazing. Yes, it has a high cost (especially considering when you get it at 6th level), but when you remember it mitigates damage to help Armor of Agathys retain the temp HP, and that it can be used as a buffer to help maintain Concentration, its quick great.

Finally, one thing everyone forgets is that the biggest buff Sorcerers got isn’t the subclasses in Tasha’s.

ITS THE MAGIC ITEMS. Bloodwell Vial? Astral Shard? Shadowfell Shard? These are radical game changers for the class.

The question then becomes which subclass benefits the most from these items.
The bloodwell vial gives 5 sorcery points. Aberrant gets a 5th level spell, and clockwork reduces 5d8 damage. Aberrant use seems more versatile while clockwork can stretch out AoA or protect a fellow caster more. Apples and oranges.

The shadowfell shard lends to more control spells, which favors Aberrant.

[sophontteks]

New items buffed all sorcerers, new spells buffed all sorcerers (tasha's mind whip and mind sliver are new staples IMO), and new abilities buffed sorcerers (They all gained a new base class ability.)

It's a good time to be a sorcerer overall, and both of the new subclasses are pretty overtuned on top of all of this.

[Chronic]

I really don't care about the items because it's incredibly GM dependant. I'm pretty sure that I'm never gonna see an item buffing the spell DC in the games I play for example.

[BerzerkerUnit]

I really don't care about the items because it's incredibly GM dependant. I'm pretty sure that I'm never gonna see an item buffing the spell DC in the games I play for example.

Alternatively you may see one in every adventurer's league game, thousands of which are run weekly. So maybe not as GM dependent as one might think.

[HPisBS]

I really don't care about the items because it's incredibly GM dependant. I'm pretty sure that I'm never gonna see an item buffing the spell DC in the games I play for example.

If you have a lvl 10 Artificer, you should at least be able to get the uncommon (+1) version fairly reliably.


Alternatively you may see one in every adventurer's league game, thousands of which are run weekly. So maybe not as GM dependent as one might think.

... Or is the second bullet of Magic Item Adept just ignored in AL games?

[Chronic]

Alternatively you may see one in every adventurer's league game, thousands of which are run weekly. So maybe not as GM dependent as one might think.

I do believe that AL still represent but a fraction of the total games played. In my country, it's almost non-existent, but I see your point.

In the games I play, I won't see one, I think the GMs are pretty aware that fidgeting with DC in this edition can be problematic, especially permanent bonuses.