Bladesinger reborn?

[Alaize-chan]

Hey everyone, it's has been a while since I played 5e, I moved to pathfinder 2e the last year but recently get back at it with the new book, I mean the Tasha one.

It has a lot of amazing new subclasses but what catches my attention was the reprinting of th bladesinger.

I quickly noticed a very subtle yet meaningful change, it's double attack states that you can cast a cantrip in place of one of the attacks... That's a huge boost to the bladesinger's damage output as far as I can tell.

Also with the new feat that gives you a fighting style you can grab two weapon fighting to add dex to your off-hand attack too!

Overall I think that the bladesinger is a tad more optimal than it was but I'd like to heard to your opinions and thoughts about this, perhaps I'm overlooking something

[JackPhoenix]

Fewer uses of Bladesong at lower levels (or overall, depends on how many rests you're getting), as it's no longer short-rest dependant, but proficiency number of uses per long rest. Which is a good change, IMO.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Hey everyone, it's has been a while since I played 5e, I moved to pathfinder 2e the last year but recently get back at it with the new book, I mean the Tasha one.

It has a lot of amazing new subclasses but what catches my attention was the reprinting of th bladesinger.

I quickly noticed a very subtle yet meaningful change, it's double attack states that you can cast a cantrip in place of one of the attacks... That's a huge boost to the bladesinger's damage output as far as I can tell.

Also with the new feat that gives you a fighting style you can grab two weapon fighting to add dex to your off-hand attack too!

Overall I think that the bladesinger is a tad more optimal than it was but I'd like to heard to your opinions and thoughts about this, perhaps I'm overlooking something

I'd say you're overlooking that you are a primary spellcaster (including the action you are talking about), so to put a weapon in the other hand the first feat you have to take is warcaster. Not that bladesingers are bad, but the default fighting style is a weapon in one hand and nothing in the other, which means they look better on paper than in reality.

[LudicSavant]

Hey everyone, it's has been a while since I played 5e, I moved to pathfinder 2e the last year but recently get back at it with the new book, I mean the Tasha one.

It has a lot of amazing new subclasses but what catches my attention was the reprinting of th bladesinger.

I quickly noticed a very subtle yet meaningful change, it's double attack states that you can cast a cantrip in place of one of the attacks... That's a huge boost to the bladesinger's damage output as far as I can tell.

Also with the new feat that gives you a fighting style you can grab two weapon fighting to add dex to your off-hand attack too!

Overall I think that the bladesinger is a tad more optimal than it was but I'd like to heard to your opinions and thoughts about this, perhaps I'm overlooking something

Tasha's Bladesingers are indeed quite strong.


Also with the new feat that gives you a fighting style you can grab two weapon fighting to add dex to your off-hand attack too!
If you want to dual-wield as a Bladesinger, it's generally better not to spend a feat on the Fighting Style, IMHO.

[Alaize-chan]

Another small change is that it no longer is elf only, to be fair most DM would hand wave that but that means that V. Human is a sure pick for an extra feat, let's say... Warcaster and then a fighting style at later levels, if I'm correct I still get just enough ASI to max both dex and int

Making bladesong dependant on proficiency is okay, better in some ways but worse in others as far as I can imagine.

Spells like Tenser transform also helps at later levels

[AvvyR]

If you want to dual-wield as a Bladesinger, it's generally better not to spend a feat on the Fighting Style, IMHO.

Yeah, having to spend an ASI on the fighting style, and another on war caster, which is a hard requirement for TWF is rough on a character that really wants to max two stats.

TWF in general is a lot less attractive for Bladesingers than it was. Used to be popular because you could combine it with Haste to give yourself two additional attacks with haste, rather than one, but that's no longer the case since you now cantrip with the Attack action. Typically, a wizard wants to be punching with Bigby's hand, misty stepping, throwing a Melf's Meteor, or something else awesome with their bonus action, not doing an additional 1d6 in melee.

[DarknessEternal]

Also with the new feat that gives you a fighting style you can grab two weapon fighting to add dex to your off-hand attack too!


And then be unable to cast spells since both your hands are full.

[Alaize-chan]

Mmmm... Good point about Bigsby hand and minute meteor.

All the better then since I wanted to go with a single shadow blade...

Still I think that getting defense or dueling fighting style is an interesting choice for a pure bladesinger

[AvvyR]

Mmmm... Good point about Bigsby hand and minute meteor.

All the better then since I wanted to go with a single shadow blade...

Still I think that getting defense or dueling fighting style is an interesting choice for a pure bladesinger

It's usually the way to go unless you have something better to spend your concentration on. Keep in mind it and bladesinging are both bonus actions you'll be wanting to do at the start of combat, so it's kind of annoying if you can't set up one just before combat begins.

+1 AC is essentially never worth an ASI, because you can just raise your DEX. Maybe at level 19 after you've maxed INT and DEX you can do it, but I'd probably prefer the HP from raising CON at that point. Bladesinger AC is very high already.

TWF in general and all melee fighting styles have an antagonistic relationship with Bladesingers, because they only have any effect on turns you use your action to make melee attacks (and in TWF's case, also your bonus action), and the fact is that those turns will end up being far fewer than you expect. Any turn you cast Lightning Bolt, Steel Wind Strike, or Scorching Ray, they do nothing. The turn you set up Melf's Meteors or Bigby's Hand, they do nothing.

TWF especially suffers from this, both because of the bonus action requirement I mentioned before, but also because it forces you to take War Caster, which is a sub-par feat for bladesingers. Resilient: CON is way better for concentration checks. You can easily sit at +12 or more to concentration and not even have to roll unless you take nearly 30 damage at once, and need to take 50 before you have a significant chance of failure. Throw in Song of Defense to reduce damage below the threshold and you can basically forget about even making concentration saves. No need to have advantage. War Caster's other bullet, the BB Opportunity attack, sounds awesome, and it is.... for an Eldritch Knight. Bladesingers need to keep their reactions available for Shield, Song of Defense, and Counterspell. You need the damage mitigation in case something gets past your high AC and into your tiny HP pool. Unless it's going to end the encounter, using a reaction to do some damage to one target is a serious risk.

[DarknessEternal]

TWF especially suffers from this, both because of the bonus action requirement I mentioned before, but also because it forces you to take War Caster, which is a sub-par feat for bladesingers.

Warcaster does not allow you to cast while dual wielding. You still don't have a hand free for M components.

[Gignere]

Warcaster does not allow you to cast while dual wielding. You still don't have a hand free for M components.

A lot of DM handwave that requirement once you pick up warcaster, however if we’re only talking about shield/absorb elements/counterspell I believe all of those don’t have M components.

[heavyfuel]

Previously, you could actually play the Bladesinger as a gish. Start every fight with Bladesong and a Concentration spell, then go town on melee, while having other spells as backup. You could prioritize Dex over Int to be better in melee, but now you pretty much need to go Int first so that you can land your spells, because you won't be able to use Dex to attack most of the time.

I do think Bladesingers were too powerful before, but they nerfed the wrong things. Post-Tasha you don't get to play as a magical warrior anymore. You just play as a normal wizard that happens to have slightly more AC.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

To me the most effective (martial type) feat to take for a bladesinger with the current rules would be Crossbow Expert. Whether you are able to use bladesong or not your role remains consistent: ranged attacks/ support, and not front line fighting. You have a reliable bonus action that can be used immediately without a pre-fight casting round in conjunction with your multi-attack; you get 3 attacks with full ability bonus. Also you haven't committed to a fighting style that could hamper casting.

[adb82]

Hey everyone, it's has been a while since I played 5e, I moved to pathfinder 2e the last year but recently get back at it with the new book, I mean the Tasha one.

It has a lot of amazing new subclasses but what catches my attention was the reprinting of th bladesinger.

I quickly noticed a very subtle yet meaningful change, it's double attack states that you can cast a cantrip in place of one of the attacks... That's a huge boost to the bladesinger's damage output as far as I can tell.

Also with the new feat that gives you a fighting style you can grab two weapon fighting to add dex to your off-hand attack too!

Overall I think that the bladesinger is a tad more optimal than it was but I'd like to heard to your opinions and thoughts about this, perhaps I'm overlooking something

Yes seem good, but i wouldnt bothering with TWF.
You have already to grab warcaster as feat, that anyway make you cast and use 2 weapons only if the spell dont have material components, otherwise you cant cast it, except doing something like "i drop my weapon, cast the spell, than in the beginning of next turn i grab it again and attack", which many DM allow as i suppose its totally RAW, but some would not. I would not bother with 2 weapon at all if you DM let you apply Booming Blade to Shadow Blade directly anyway (but also here depends how your DM read that "it counts as a simple melee weapon", which in my opinion refers also to the price and so to how many gp is worth, but not everyone think the same, while RAI for sure it work).

In this way its anyway kinda true that you not gonna have a good use of your bonus action, because except misty step, till you get things like soul cage or crown of stars, you not gonna have much to do with it, while if you use it like a wizard but with a very hight ac you probably can use your bonus action better. But thats true only in part, because on the first turn of combat with your BA you start Bladesong (+int AC, +int TS su concentrazione), and any other wizard would love to have a first bonus action like this, while togheter it, you can cast any area effect spell with no concentration (fireball T1, later on Synaptic Static o Weel wind strike) or a defense spell (mirror image, blink etc), a bladesinger that play like a wizard will cast probably blur or hypnotic pattern. Turn 2 you cast SHadow Blade again with a BA and than full attack with a good damage output, the bladesinger/wizard start to cast cantrips and minor spells.

Haste as damage output its below SB, if you want a free disengage action and +2 AC than go for it.

im assuming both characters around lv 6. Till here the Bladesinger more melee is better i think.

Later on the spells you get are really powerful and again seem to bring you to play more like a wizard, wall of force its really good and require concentration, many other spells make you to apply conditions or repositioning creatures on the battlefield, that is strong, and many requires concentration, and this mean that if you cast them you cant cast Shadow Blade for a 3/4 d8 every hit, + advantage in dim light + Booming Blade O GFB. In my opinion anyway, if you avoid to pick too many concentration spells and make only the picks you really need, you can sinergize the melee part with the spells and still have a huge spell power. Steel wind strike and Synaptic Static help to make area damage with no concentration (before use a fireball for area damage), plus debuff or repositioning, wall of force for when it is needed, maybe Greater invisibility can have a good use too, but not as strong as it looks, polimorph is your personal heal spell, later on soul cage and crown of stars give you great options for your bonus action, i would pick also eyebite and whirlwind for make it be casted by the simulacrum while you keep upcasting SB to lv 5. Tenser transformation is kinda a trap, 50 hp, granted advatange and +2d12 on your attacks, but no more shield, absorb elements and counterspell, and anyway a SB 5th lv deal around same damage if you are not using a good magic sword and it cost a slot of lower lv, also with Sb, a familiar, and good positioning will be kinda easy anyway to find advantage. The other spells i suppose its Rituals and utilities.

At least one feat between warcaster and resilient (con) its mandatory, than it work prioritizing dex as prioritizing int, i probably prefer proritize int first, as with so often advantage probably 16 dex is enought for hit, and int help you also with concentration, plus later on you can get spells that can make your phisical attributes grow, many less help with the mentals one, and after a certain point you add int to melee damage. Alert also seem good, but probably i wouldnt bother with anything else. Even get only one between resilient (con) and warcaster, than maximize both int and dex, its never wrong.

Vhuman, as almost always, is the best race, hight elf also its really good (and elven accuracy can work really better on this character that have lots of ways for get advantage).

I suppose he can compete with any other wizard to give utiities to the parties, just probably in a different way. At the end of story i think their damage output and utilities are kinda same, maybe the classic wizard still stay a bit above bcs it have more options in combat for the many utilities with concentration (and so probaby less dpr), but we are anyway talking about the most poweful class in the game and the difference, if there is, its kinda few, its probably much more in the style to play (of course also with a very different spells selection) and in the characterization than other things.

PS the limited use of bladesong start to hurt really less later on, i dont know who calculated 7/8 fights for day, but normally in the tables i play its much more around 3/4 and for 3/4 fights the progression of bladesong is ok.

[Snowbluff]

I think bladesinger is pretty good right now. Before, I would consider a decent generalist option that got some more concentration and AC. Now they are a little better at actually melee fighting.

However, if you're willing to multiclass, it's become more of a good option there. Rogues enjoy having extra attack, and adding cantrip damage on top of that is quite nice. Furthermore, people have started adding Eldritch Blade to the attack sequence as a multiclass warlock. I even came up with a build I call the SAD Businessman, which is an artificer/bladesinger that basically is purely INT based thanks to artificer subs getting Int to attack, and getting Int to AC from Bladesinger, and not needing dex thanks to Tortle's natural armor.

[adb82]

I think bladesinger is pretty good right now. Before, I would consider a decent generalist option that got some more concentration and AC. Now they are a little better at actually melee fighting.

However, if you're willing to multiclass, it's become more of a good option there. Rogues enjoy having extra attack, and adding cantrip damage on top of that is quite nice. Furthermore, people have started adding Eldritch Blade to the attack sequence as a multiclass warlock. I even came up with a build I call the SAD Businessman, which is an artificer/bladesinger that basically is purely INT based thanks to artificer subs getting Int to attack, and getting Int to AC from Bladesinger, and not needing dex thanks to Tortle's natural armor.

I was thinking also an hexblade dip, for the curse that would mean tons of damage per attack and 19/20 crit 2 times a day, not bad with just one lv. The main problem is that between bladesong, Shadow Blade and than also the curse you are playing the 3rd turn when it enter in game so i dont know if its really worth, but especially once you can count on shapechange, hoping your dm allow you marilith or you can see it, that +6 proficiency +int + dex to damage mean around +14 to every single attack x 7 and you keep being a full caster lol. I honestly dont know if and when it shuld be taken the dip, but at a first look seem it have something to say somehow.

Ps with rogue can work but you lose a lot compared with any wizard, im curious about your artificier build because seem interesting too...

[Snowbluff]

I was thinking also an hexblade dip, for the curse that would mean tons of damage per attack and 19/20 crit 2 times a day, not bad with just one lv. The main problem is that between bladesong, Shadow Blade and than also the curse you are playing the 3rd turn when it enter in game so i dont know if its really worth, but especially once you can count on shapechange, hoping your dm allow you marilith or you can see it, that +6 proficiency +int + dex to damage mean around +14 to every single attack x 7 and you keep being a full caster lol. I honestly dont know if and when it shuld be taken the dip, but at a first look seem it have something to say somehow.

Ps with rogue can work but you lose a lot compared with any wizard, im curious about your artificier build because seem interesting too...

Honestly, having just Eldritch Blast instead of one of your attacks is already worth it, in my opinion. Everything else is just gravy. If you're worried about too many actions, it's not uncommon for people to settle for crossbow expert over trying to form a shadow blade (you would need it to avoid disadvantage with EB at point blank anyway), and Genielock doesn't need to use a bonus action for their damage bonus.

The SAD Business Man is Battlesmith3/Bladesinger6. It's not super complex or anything, just has a lot of freedom with how SAD the stat arrangement can be. If your DM doesn't consider the abilities given by the armor's abilities a "benefit," armorer works too.

[adb82]

Honestly, having just Eldritch Blast instead of one of your attacks is already worth it, in my opinion. Everything else is just gravy. If you're worried about too many actions, it's not uncommon for people to settle for crossbow expert over trying to form a shadow blade (you would need it to avoid disadvantage with EB at point blank anyway), and Genielock doesn't need to use a bonus action for their damage bonus.

The SAD Business Man is Battlesmith3/Bladesinger6. It's not super complex or anything, just has a lot of freedom with how SAD the stat arrangement can be. If your DM doesn't consider the abilities given by the armor's abilities a "benefit," armorer works too.

Yea probably its worth even just it (even you can get it with magic initiate also), but i cant figure out at which point...probably should be done at first lv, but im playing now a bladesinger 4th lv and i dont know when i should put it in. I thought after get lv 10, but than lv 13 for simulacrum its behind the corner, as before the 5th lv spells add lots of power...

About your build i never tryed the artificier, but reading about it, it looks good for many multiclassing option, it is friendly with many classes lol.

[Witty Username]

I would say bladesingers power is about the same, and gameplay feel is probably improved. being able to attack and cast a cantrip in the same turn is a lot of good. and the bladesinging uses being more limited (at low levels) means they are likely going to be used for melee combat instead of boosting concentration saves.
The original was cool but their wasn't much that encouraged you to actually attack with a weapon much. Overall the change is good.