What am I missing with Aberrant Mind & Clockwork Soul?

[jaappleton]

Since its introduction, I have always said Divine Soul is the best Sorcerer Origin. I know that the limited spells known of the Sorcerer can make spell selection even more exceeding difficult if you're a Divine Soul, however, the ability to Twin spells like Holy Weapon and extend durations of other key Cleric spells is just outright amazing.

With the introduction of Tasha's, however, its seems I'm almost on an island with that thought. Not that people now believe Divine Soul is garbage, but that it has been usurped as the top tier option.

People love the Aberrant Mind quite a lot, with Clockwork almost as much and I... honestly don't see why? I understand the expanded spell list is big, as is the ability to swap spells from that list to others so long as they're from the two particular schools. And the spells cast from that list essentially always having Subtle Spell when cast via Sorcery Points, in regards to Aberrant.

But I simply don't see what the fuss is about.

What am I missing? Can anyone help me see what I apparently don't see?

[KorvinStarmast]

But I simply don't see what the fuss is about. Bonus spells, I would guess. The kvetching about a sorcerer's limited spell list has been going on since about the time of 5e's release.

(Heck, even I would rather not see the high level 'spells known get clipped the way that it is, and IMO one more meta magic attained at level 7 ought to be the baseline ... ).

[jaappleton]

Bonus spells, I would guess. The kvetching about a sorcerer's limited spell list has been going on since about the time of 5e's release.

(Heck, even I would rather not see the high level 'spells known get clipped the way that it is, and IMO one more meta magic attained at level 7 ought to be the baseline ... ).

If my DM were to allow Sorcerers to learn a number of additional spells equal to their Charisma modifier, does it bridge the gap between Divine and Aberrant / Clockwork?

[Hand_of_Vecna]

The substitute spells don't have to come from the Sorcerer list so you get a portion of Divine Soul's shinyness.

[Luccan]

If my DM were to allow Sorcerers to learn a number of additional spells equal to their Charisma modifier, does it bridge the gap between Divine and Aberrant / Clockwork?

I'd just talk to your DM about giving other Sorcerer subclasses their own bonus spell lists. Either way remember the 1st level bonus spell for a DS is a specific ability, so it should be in addition to the "normal" number of bonus spells

[RickAsWritten]

I can't speak for the Aberrant Mind, but the Clockwork allows for what is probably the best "thorns" build in the game with Armor of Agathys available from the bonus spells and the Bastion of Law ward. Spend most of your Sorcery Point budget on wards, upcast AoA as high as you can, and then waltz into melee daring enemies to squash the squishy.
I'm only up to level 3, but it's been a different playstyle for a sorcerer than I've done before and it's been a blast. I've focused almost entirely on taking spells to maximize damage mitigation, and played sorta like a cleric as a front-line spell caster.

[sophontteks]

Divine soul isn't a very strong subclass. It's basically middle ground. It's adding more spells you can pick up from a generally weaker spell list without giving you more known spells, save the single bonus spell. Doesn't help that the best spells from the cleric list tend to favor a more front line style.

I do hate to break your bubble, but you can't twin holy weapon because it doesn't target a creature (though I fully support any table allowing this). The extended spells are fun and unique, but I really wish they lasted 24 hours.

I think you're probably right to say that the subclass lost a lot of favor as the hype of having a whole new spell list died down when people realized how few of them work well with sorcerers and metamagic. It has strengths, it's not terrible. But Draconic and Shadow both have stronger features.


Now, Aberrant and Clockwork are adding spells from Wizards and Warlocks. And there are some really big winners in these lists that do work well with metamagic and Sorcerers.

The most broken combo I've seen thus far is a Abberant sorcerer using Modify memory, speaking the alterations telepathically, and removing the V and S components through their level 6 feature (free subtle). Completely undetectable memory modifications on anyone you meet.

So, they are getting an arsenal of extra spells, which is the sorcerer's man weakness and they are pulling it from other lists. And their features are both pretty good too.

For Abberant sorcerers, at 6th level all their spells are cast as if subtle was used, for free. They can also cast these spells with metamagic for their conversion cost, allowing them to mulch up lower level spells as they please to manage more castings of their class spells.

So a sorcerer with access to 4th level spells can mulch up 2 second level spells to cast another spell at heir max level. They can basically mulch up all their spells and just keep casting their most powerful spells.

[MrStabby]

So the reason they are so good is a few things all acting together.

1) more spells. Basically the limited spell selection that a sorcerer could take was what stopped it being overpowered. Now there is a lot more flexability

2) quality of spells. Cherry picking spells from multiple classes is superb. Wall of force, armour of agathys and many more are all within reach.

3) interactions with metamagic. Your good spells can now actually be even more effective than with the classes they were designed for.

4) not so much a strength as a lack of weakness. With all of these spells and stuff you would expect the rest of the class to be made up of ribbon abilities - and whilst most of the other abilities are relatively unexciting they are still useful.

5) An element of scarcity value. A lot of the best spells these classes get, or the best ones anyway, are only on one class list. The aforementioned wall of force and armour of agathys being examples. The spells that the divine soul brings are just a bit more widely found. Bless is cleric and paladin, healing spells are everywhere, spirit guardians is great but is a bit more worrying without more armour proficiencies... it just helps fill the gaps a little bit.

[CMCC]

More. Spells.

It's really that simple. The biggest weakness of Sorcerers is the lack of spells known. These subclasses solve the problem while ALSO expanding the spell selection possibilities, which is just insane.

[Kane0]

Since its introduction, I have always said Divine Soul is the best Sorcerer Origin. I know that the limited spells known of the Sorcerer can make spell selection even more exceeding difficult if you're a Divine Soul, however, the ability to Twin spells like Holy Weapon and extend durations of other key Cleric spells is just outright amazing.

With the introduction of Tasha's, however, its seems I'm almost on an island with that thought. Not that people now believe Divine Soul is garbage, but that it has been usurped as the top tier option.

People love the Aberrant Mind quite a lot, with Clockwork almost as much and I... honestly don't see why? I understand the expanded spell list is big, as is the ability to swap spells from that list to others so long as they're from the two particular schools. And the spells cast from that list essentially always having Subtle Spell when cast via Sorcery Points, in regards to Aberrant.

But I simply don't see what the fuss is about.

What am I missing? Can anyone help me see what I apparently don't see?


If my DM were to allow Sorcerers to learn a number of additional spells equal to their Charisma modifier, does it bridge the gap between Divine and Aberrant / Clockwork?

At levels 1, 3, 5, 7 and 9 a post-tashas sorcerer will enjoy double the spells known of a pre-tashas one. Only once you hit tier 3 does this gap begin to shrink down to two-thirds-again by the time you hit level 20 (15 to 25).

Most people would likely agree with a statement along the lines of 'the primary aspect of a full caster is their spells'.
Many (maybe not most) would also agree with a statement along the lines of 'one of the primary limiting factors of the sorcerer is their restrictive number of spells known'.

Now the divine sorcerer enjoys a much larger spell list, which ticks off the first point above. Divine and Shadow also grant a single extra spell known, draconic replicates the effects of two or more which ticks off the second to a very minor extent. The tashas subclasses tick off both points without sacrificing their subclass features, which are themselves about as good as pre-tashas ones.

Edit: Yes, an extra 3-5 spells known for pre-tashas sorcerers would significantly narrow the gap between them. Even better if you make bonus spell lists for them.

[jaappleton]

Thank you all for the replies thus far.

I believe a big aspect I was missing was that although I do not love the bonus spell list of either Clockwork or Aberrant, I did not see the sheer amount of spells that I DO want that they can be swapped out with.

I was focused on what the bonus spell lists currently are as presented, and while thematic, not what I enjoy. I did not realize what they can be.

[MrStabby]

Thank you all for the replies thus far.

I believe a big aspect I was missing was that although I do not love the bonus spell list of either Clockwork or Aberrant, I did not see the sheer amount of spells that I DO want that they can be swapped out with.

I was focused on what the bonus spell lists currently are as presented, and while thematic, not what I enjoy. I did not realize what they can be.

Yeah, every spell that is a sorcerer spell that you want from that list is a sorcerer spell freed up for other uses. Every spell that you want that is from another class is just a further bonus.

[ATHATH]

For Abberant sorcerers, at 6th level all their spells are cast as if subtle was used, for free.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but ain't that just for the spells they cast using Psychic Sorcery?

[KorvinStarmast]

If my DM were to allow Sorcerers to learn a number of additional spells equal to their Charisma modifier, does it bridge the gap between Divine and Aberrant / Clockwork?

We have had a couple of good threads in the past few months regarding "what should the other sorcerer origins get for bonus spells now that clockwork and aberrant get massive bonus spells" and I've arrived at my own conclusion:

One bonus spell that is thematically tied to origin from 1st through 5th level (like domain spells, or how Gloom Stalker gets another one for each spell level) and I'll be implementing that with our Shadow sorcerer in our Salt Marsh campaign when he hits 7th level, since I also will add one more meta magic for him at that level (an omission in the original Sorcerer that just bugs the heck out of me).

The list I got was from one of our posters who got an assist from TheUser (also a poster here) on getting the thematics to fit.

For Shadow, I'll have my player pick one from the list for their bonus spell for spell levels 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 (if they get to 9th level).

1 Silent Image or Disguise Self
2 Silence or Phansasmal Force
3 Hunger of Hadar or Vampiric Touch
4 Shadows of Moil or Improved invisibility
5 Envervation or dream

There are some other collections that are at the GM Binder site, but that one is the one I like best.

[sophontteks]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but ain't that just for the spells they cast using Psychic Sorcery?
Your not wrong, but that's a huge list of spells and they will be some of their best spells as well.

It's a huge power for shadow sorcerers just being able to cast darkness like this, because 2 1st level spells = another darkness casting. They can practically cast darkness as much as they want just by pulling from other spell levels.

The Aberration Sorcerer gets to do this with all of their free 2 spells per level. This frees them from much of the spell level limits. They are free to mulch up lower level spells to keep casting their stronger spells, or change them up how they please really.

[Salmon343]

It's all in the bonus spells, I think. Sorcerers always seemed like the kind of class where you can make something pretty strong via specific strategies, restricted by a limited number of spells you can play around with. For example; twinned haste, subtle counterspell, quickened hold person/monster for the Sorcadins among us. Divine Soul was viewed as strong because it gave you more spells to play with - I've not played my Divine Soul Sorcadin yet, but I've always been excited by the possibility of twinning healing word and greater invisibility, and extending aura of vitality. But you'll note that only a small selection of spells and strategies become amazing when combined with metamagic, so that's always limited the kind of sorcerers that could be played.

The bonus spells of the newer subclasses give you 10 extra spells, giving you the freedom to create a themed or generalist sorcerer that doesn't suck. You've got the space to take the strong sorcerer spells as well as spells that fit your theme, so can be effective and happy. Even without taking the stronger spells, Sorcerers only learn up to 15 spells, which is tiny. That's the same amount that a maxed stat max level prepared caster like the Wizard can prepare, and even then the Wizard learns 44 spells by level 20 - not counting any they may come across in study. Metamagic is worth a lot, but I don't think it's worth that vast difference in spells known - so those bonus spells are valued highly.

[Snowbluff]

It's all in the bonus spells, I think. Sorcerers always seemed like the kind of class where you can make something pretty strong via specific strategies, restricted by a limited number of spells you can play around with. For example; twinned haste, subtle counterspell, quickened hold person/monster for the Sorcadins among us. Divine Soul was viewed as strong because it gave you more spells to play with - I've not played my Divine Soul Sorcadin yet, but I've always been excited by the possibility of twinning healing word and greater invisibility, and extending aura of vitality. But you'll note that only a small selection of spells and strategies become amazing when combined with metamagic, so that's always limited the kind of sorcerers that could be played.

The bonus spells of the newer subclasses give you 10 extra spells, giving you the freedom to create a themed or generalist sorcerer that doesn't suck. You've got the space to take the strong sorcerer spells as well as spells that fit your theme, so can be effective and happy. Even without taking the stronger spells, Sorcerers only learn up to 15 spells, which is tiny. That's the same amount that a maxed stat max level prepared caster like the Wizard can prepare, and even then the Wizard learns 44 spells by level 20 - not counting any they may come across in study. Metamagic is worth a lot, but I don't think it's worth that vast difference in spells known - so those bonus spells are valued highly.

I'll have to agree with you here. The chassis is good in every way except for spell selection if you ask me. However, if you're getting a much expanded spell list and adding 50% more spells known, that's a big difference.

That's literally it, though. I basically dislike the abilities of the new subs and much prefer the Xanathar ones. They could have taken the opportunity to expand the spell list and spells known as an alternate class feature with Tasha's but simply did not.

[sophontteks]

I'll have to agree with you here. The chassis is good in every way except for spell selection if you ask me. However, if you're getting a much expanded spell list and adding 50% more spells known, that's a big difference.

That's literally it, though. I basically dislike the abilities of the new subs and much prefer the Xanathar ones. They could have taken the opportunity to expand the spell list and spells known as an alternate class feature with Tasha's but simply did not.
I think Shadow Sorcerer is still perfectly competitive as-is. But you gotta know what you are doing with metamagic and spell selection.

They are balanced, but the new ones are much more forgiving to the people who aren't sitting there for days researching optimal spell's known.

[jaappleton]

I think Shadow Sorcerer is still perfectly competitive as-is. But you gotta know what you are doing with metamagic and spell selection.

They are balanced, but the new ones are much more forgiving to the people who aren't sitting there for days researching optimal spell's known.

I firmly believe Shadow's appeal drops dramatically with the release of the Shadowfell Shard magic item from Tasha's.

Rare, requires attunement by a Sorcerer: Whenever you use a Metamagic on a spell targeting a creature, you choose one ability score, and the creature has Disadvantage on ability checks and saving throws with that ability score until the end of your next turn.

.....they kinda ripped the best feature right out of Shadow, which was inflicting Heightened, and made it an item. And of course, there's never any guarantee your DM will give you such an item. So if you want to keep your destiny in your own hands, Shadow is still great. If your DM is more amenable... I think Shadow loses much of its luster.

[sophontteks]

I firmly believe Shadow's appeal drops dramatically with the release of the Shadowfell Shard magic item from Tasha's.

Rare, requires attunement by a Sorcerer: Whenever you use a Metamagic on a spell targeting a creature, you choose one ability score, and the creature has Disadvantage on ability checks and saving throws with that ability score until the end of your next turn.

.....they kinda ripped the best feature right out of Shadow, which was inflicting Heightened, and made it an item. And of course, there's never any guarantee your DM will give you such an item. So if you want to keep your destiny in your own hands, Shadow is still great. If your DM is more amenable... I think Shadow loses much of its luster.

Just means we get something else ;)

[sophontteks]

Wow I just looked. There are some amazing sorcerer items. I'm sure I'll never see them buuut dang!

[jaappleton]

Wow I just looked. There are some amazing sorcerer items. I'm sure I'll never see them buuut dang!

Wait until you see the Bloodwell Vial.

+X bonus, based on rarity, to your Sorcerer spell attack rolls and DCs.
Once per day, when you roll hit dice to regain HP, regain 5 sorcery points.

[jaappleton]

Small update:

Normally I wouldn't plug someone else's stuff. But Treantmonk's YT video on the Clockwork Sorc fired off all sorts of uses for all the features, and examples of spells you can swap the bonus spell list with.

WOW.

I had realized I was missing something after talking to everyone here but I wasn't quite aware as to how outright and blatantly wrong I was. Transmutation and Abjuration encapsulates so many of the best spells that you want on your list, my goodness.

[Kane0]

Yeah seeing that clockwork in tashas was the first time I said to myself ‘maybe I can make that telekinesis-only character without feeling like a one trick pony’

[Asmerv]

Oddly enough, a telekinetic character is easier through Clockwork than it is Aberrant Mind, I've found. Most of the telekinetic feeling spells are in Transmutation: Jump, Feather Fall, Levitate, Catapult, Fly, Telekinesis etc.

[Luccan]

Oddly enough, a telekinetic character is easier through Clockwork than it is Aberrant Mind, I've found. Most of the telekinetic feeling spells are in Transmutation: Jump, Feather Fall, Levitate, Catapult, Fly, Telekinesis etc.

Well Aberrant Mind is more about being a Telepathic Eldritch Horror than lifting things with your brain

[Theodoxus]

Going on that theme, even without coming up with spell lists (which I'm sure would be more contentious trying to get right), what would be your two schools for swapping spells for the other bloodlines?

In order...

Dragon: Evocation (obviously) and Enchantment? thinking along the lines of charming dragons and expanding on that.
Divine Soul: Abjuration and Evocation? These cover most of the healing/restoration that most people take this subclass for (at least that I've talked to) - but I'm open to other schools.
Shadow: Illusion (obviously) and Conjuration? Evocation (where Darkness lives seems too redundant, plus I don't really see Shadow sorcs as the blasty type that Evocation emotes, and if the player wants to be, there's plenty of sorcerer spells that cover that they can pick. Conjuration fits with the Hound of Ill Omen motif). I could see Necromancy as well, to be honest.
Storm: Evocation? and Transmutation? Kinda like Shadow, the Evocation feels a little redundant, but nothing else really felt like a good fit. Transmutation feels like it suits the movement and control aspects of the bloodline.
Wild: Of all the bloodlines, this one screams "any school". But I think in that case, they should only get 1 bonus spell per spell level to swap out. Otherwise, if forced to stick with 2, I'd probably go with Evocation and Transmutation, since they have the most spells to pick from Sorcerer, Warlock and Wizard.

Thoughts?

[Luccan]

Going on that theme, even without coming up with spell lists (which I'm sure would be more contentious trying to get right), what would be your two schools for swapping spells for the other bloodlines?

In order...

Dragon: Evocation (obviously) and Enchantment? thinking along the lines of charming dragons and expanding on that.
Divine Soul: Abjuration and Evocation? These cover most of the healing/restoration that most people take this subclass for (at least that I've talked to) - but I'm open to other schools.
Shadow: Illusion (obviously) and Conjuration? Evocation (where Darkness lives seems too redundant, plus I don't really see Shadow sorcs as the blasty type that Evocation emotes, and if the player wants to be, there's plenty of sorcerer spells that cover that they can pick. Conjuration fits with the Hound of Ill Omen motif). I could see Necromancy as well, to be honest.
Storm: Evocation? and Transmutation? Kinda like Shadow, the Evocation feels a little redundant, but nothing else really felt like a good fit. Transmutation feels like it suits the movement and control aspects of the bloodline.
Wild: Of all the bloodlines, this one screams "any school". But I think in that case, they should only get 1 bonus spell per spell level to swap out. Otherwise, if forced to stick with 2, I'd probably go with Evocation and Transmutation, since they have the most spells to pick from Sorcerer, Warlock and Wizard.

Thoughts?

I wouldn't focus on just schools for all of them. I could see Dragon swapping from any list for spells related their damage type, for instance. And maybe let Green Dragon grab anything that results in the poisoned condition just because poisoned damage is pretty weak

Similarly, letting Storm pick up more thematic spells not regulated by school or class list makes the most sense to me.

[sophontteks]

Going on that theme, even without coming up with spell lists (which I'm sure would be more contentious trying to get right), what would be your two schools for swapping spells for the other bloodlines?

In order...

Dragon: Evocation (obviously) and Enchantment? thinking along the lines of charming dragons and expanding on that.
Divine Soul: Abjuration and Evocation? These cover most of the healing/restoration that most people take this subclass for (at least that I've talked to) - but I'm open to other schools.
Shadow: Illusion (obviously) and Conjuration? Evocation (where Darkness lives seems too redundant, plus I don't really see Shadow sorcs as the blasty type that Evocation emotes, and if the player wants to be, there's plenty of sorcerer spells that cover that they can pick. Conjuration fits with the Hound of Ill Omen motif). I could see Necromancy as well, to be honest.
Storm: Evocation? and Transmutation? Kinda like Shadow, the Evocation feels a little redundant, but nothing else really felt like a good fit. Transmutation feels like it suits the movement and control aspects of the bloodline.
Wild: Of all the bloodlines, this one screams "any school". But I think in that case, they should only get 1 bonus spell per spell level to swap out. Otherwise, if forced to stick with 2, I'd probably go with Evocation and Transmutation, since they have the most spells to pick from Sorcerer, Warlock and Wizard.

Thoughts?
Shadow is a lot of blasting CC and phantasms. That's gonna cover a good few schools.
The darkness and expensive ability costs makes empowered scorching ray and fireballs very attractive.

[HPisBS]

I'd just talk to your DM about giving other Sorcerer subclasses their own bonus spell lists. Either way remember the 1st level bonus spell for a DS is a specific ability, so it should be in addition to the "normal" number of bonus spells


We have had a couple of good threads in the past few months regarding "what should the other sorcerer origins get for bonus spells now that clockwork and aberrant get massive bonus spells" and I've arrived at my own conclusion:

One bonus spell that is thematically tied to origin from 1st through 5th level (like domain spells, or how Gloom Stalker gets another one for each spell level) and I'll be implementing that with our Shadow sorcerer in our Salt Marsh campaign when he hits 7th level, since I also will add one more meta magic for him at that level (an omission in the original Sorcerer that just bugs the heck out of me).

The list I got was from one of our posters who got an assist from TheUser (also a poster here) on getting the thematics to fit.

For Shadow, I'll have my player pick one from the list for their bonus spell for spell levels 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 (if they get to 9th level).

1 Silent Image or Disguise Self
2 Silence or Phansasmal Force
3 Hunger of Hadar or Vampiric Touch
4 Shadows of Moil or Improved invisibility
5 Envervation or dream

There are some other collections that are at the GM Binder site, but that one is the one I like best.

I'll go ahead and repost my thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?608257-Thematic-Sorcerer-Subclass-Spells) on it here. Originally, I didn't include 5th lvl spells since I wanted to avoid any accusations of OP homebrew, but now that kind of power-creep is already official lol.


"... To be precise, we're looking for 4 5 bonus spells ranging from 1st to 4th 5th levels. They should all be thematic, come from other classes' lists where possible, and ~ half should be non-damaging (like Gust of Wind for Storm Sorc).
⤷ Limiting it to 4 bonuses would keep Sorcerers as the full-caster with the fewest available spells. Limiting the number of damaging spells keeps the balance of power from shifting too drastically. Flavor is the primary goal here.

Here are appropriate bonus spells for all 5 official Sorcererous Origins:

1 - Armor of Agathys, but the damage is of your Draconic element
2 - Alter Self, but adds a “Draconic Eyes” option (+ 30 ft darkvision, max 120 ft)
3 - Fear
4 - Elemental Bane (Draconic element only)
edit:
5 - Elemental Cone (Cone of Cold, but the damage is of your Draconic element)

Roll a d6 to determine which full-caster class (+warlock) you get the bonus spell from, followed by a d8 to determine which school the spell is from. Roll both again each time you gain a different bonus spell, including when replacing a previously chosen bonus spell. You may choose Chaos Bolt as your bonus 1st level spell instead.

You may re-roll for one of these spells whenever a Wild Magic Surge happens.

1 - Unseen Servant
2 - Pass Without Trace)
3 - Speak With Dead
4 - Shadow of Moil
Edit:
5 - Enervation

1 - Fog Cloud
2 - Gust of Wind
3 - Call Lightning
4 - Conjure Minor Elementals (only dust, steam, smoke, & ice mephits as per original UA)
Edit:
5 - Conjure (Air) Elemental as per original UA

Pick a domain and gain 1 of its bonus spells for each level. Priority should be given to spells which are on the Cleric spell list.

The above bonus spells should dramatically increase the flavor of the associated Origins, far beyond what is practical - or even possible - with the RAW spells known / sorcerer spell list."

(I wanted to choose non-damaging thematic 5th lvl spells, like Antilife Shell for Shadow and Control Winds [with the added ability to center it on Self] for Storm, but the best fit I could find for a non-damaging Draconic spell would've been Legend Lore [to represent genetic memory... do DnD dragons have genetic memory?], or maybe Hallow [to sorta mimic Lair / Regional Effects] and those just didn't feel right.)

[SharkForce]

I'm not sure why allowing all damage spells would shift the balance of power.

damage spells are a great option to have, but they are often not the strongest thing a spellcaster can do. in fact, for the most part it's really only the *best* damage spells that are even worth taking at all; if you already have fireball, the value of picking up an additional AoE damage spell is largely "this is plan B, to be used when fireball literally cannot work at all". picking up a third damage-dealing spell loses even more value. sure, you could pick up fireball, *and* lightning bolt, *and* erupting earth, but I can't help but suspect that you'd get a lot more value out of picking up slow, haste, fear, hypnotic pattern, fly, or counterspell to round out the list of things you can do rather than having three ways of dealing damage, two of which will only be used when you can't use the better option(s).

if a sorcerer wants to go all-in on damage, there is no need to artificially discourage them. taking exclusively nukes is not a good idea, but if that's what the player wants, let them do it; it isn't overpowered.

[Hael]

A lot of the home brew going on now with pre tashas classes are pretty OP. Consider that aberrant mind and clockwork both paid opportunity cost for their spell selections, and got fewer features as a result. If you want to remove some of the lvl3 features for your homebrews as an exchange then that seems fairer.

Also consider that the restrictions on the spell types for those classes were severe. Abberant mind had divination and enchantment which is about as harsh as it can get. Clockwork got abjuration and transmutation and already it was starting to get out of hand, and that’s far from the best combo.

[SharkForce]

A lot of the home brew going on now with pre tashas classes are pretty OP. Consider that aberrant mind and clockwork both paid opportunity cost for their spell selections, and got fewer features as a result. If you want to remove some of the lvl3 features for your homebrews as an exchange then that seems fairer.

Also consider that the restrictions on the spell types for those classes were severe. Abberant mind had divination and enchantment which is about as harsh as it can get. Clockwork got abjuration and transmutation and already it was starting to get out of hand, and that’s far from the best combo.

they really didn't pay any major price for their extra spells. aberrant and clockwork, if their features are indeed worse at all, are not behind by much. I would maybe keep in mind that certain features from the older subclasses already get spells (shadow or divine, for example, should probably get 1 less, and draconic arguably gets at-will mage armour and should probably take that into account), but for the most part, aberrant mind without the 10 extra spells would be pretty comparable to what came before.

(also, I'm not sure what you think is vastly superior to transmutation/abjuration, because that's a pretty danged strong combination if you ask me).

[Kane0]

A lot of the home brew going on now with pre tashas classes are pretty OP. Consider that aberrant mind and clockwork both paid opportunity cost for their spell selections, and got fewer features as a result. If you want to remove some of the lvl3 features for your homebrews as an exchange then that seems fairer.

Also consider that the restrictions on the spell types for those classes were severe. Abberant mind had divination and enchantment which is about as harsh as it can get. Clockwork got abjuration and transmutation and already it was starting to get out of hand, and that’s far from the best combo.

I disagree on both fronts. Neither the features nor spell selection are so poor as to be considered ribbons which would be needed to call them on par with subclasses from previous books.

[Kylar0990]

A lot of the home brew going on now with pre tashas classes are pretty OP. Consider that aberrant mind and clockwork both paid opportunity cost for their spell selections, and got fewer features as a result. If you want to remove some of the lvl3 features for your homebrews as an exchange then that seems fairer.

Also consider that the restrictions on the spell types for those classes were severe. Abberant mind had divination and enchantment which is about as harsh as it can get. Clockwork got abjuration and transmutation and already it was starting to get out of hand, and that’s far from the best combo.

What 3rd level features? The only feature any Sorcerer gets at 3rd level is Metamagic.

All Sorcerer subclass features are at levels 1, 6, 14, and 18. Abberant Mind and Clockwork Soul's subclass features are stronger than people are giving them credit for. Their 1st level subclass features aren't quite as strong as some other subclasses, but they make up for that quickly. Their features at 6, 14, and 18 are all strong.

[Hael]

What 3rd level features? The only feature any Sorcerer gets at 3rd level is Metamagic.

All Sorcerer subclass features are at levels 1, 6, 14, and 18. Abberant Mind and Clockwork Soul's subclass features are stronger than people are giving them credit for. Their 1st level subclass features aren't quite as strong as some other subclasses, but they make up for that quickly. Their features at 6, 14, and 18 are all strong.

Sorry for the typo, lvl 1 features obviously. And yea telepathy and a limited reaction doesn’t really compete. The spell list is the feature for all intents and purposes.

As for the other lvls features, I mean they’re ok.. average at best in comparison to the other classes. I’d definitely prefer a shadow sorcerers for instance. The major reason the subclasses are top tier is that spell list.

[SharkForce]

Sorry for the typo, lvl 1 features obviously. And yea telepathy and a limited reaction doesnÂ’t really compete. The spell list is the feature for all intents and purposes.

As for the other lvls features, I mean theyÂ’re ok.. average at best in comparison to the other classes. IÂ’d definitely prefer a shadow sorcerers for instance. The major reason the subclasses are top tier is that spell list.

aberrant mind level 6 ability is free subtle on a large list of spells (many of which can be extremely useful in social situations) and extremely efficient conversion of sorcery points for that same list. also some useful resistances.

clockwork soul has an incredible ability for protecting concentration. those aren't temporary hit points or actual hit points, they represent damage prevented. a 50 damage hit is a DC 25 concentration save. a 50 damage hit minus 5d8 is an average of a DC 13-14 concentration save.

I'm not going to try to argue that they are vastly superior to shadow sorcerer or anything like that, but these are not ribbons, and if they are worse than shadow sorcerer, it isn't by a large margin.

even the level 1 abilities (apart from increased spells known, which is huge) aren't exactly chopped liver.

the aberrant mind ability can be used to speak to people silently, which is useful in a variety of stealth and social situations, as well as situations where a spell requires you to speak to someone to create an effect. your suggestion spells can be subtle for free, for example, and nobody else can hear that you've just made a suggestion to your target. your familiar can scout from several miles away while giving active reports instead of 100 feet. it isn't the absolutely biggest splashy ability out there, but it can be used as often as you want.

the clockwork soul ability can be used to cancel out magic resistance. it can also be used to cancel out armour stealth penalties, disadvantage from attacking an enemy on the ground from a distance, to prevent a restrained ally from making a save at disadvantage, and so on. it isn't exciting or flashy, but it isn't weak either.

these two subclasses would not be as exciting without the extra spells known, for sure. I don't think they'd make the automatic jump to top two subclasses. but they wouldn't be at the bottom of the heap either.

[Kylar0990]

aberrant mind level 6 ability is free subtle on a large list of spells (many of which can be extremely useful in social situations) and extremely efficient conversion of sorcery points for that same list. also some useful resistances.

clockwork soul has an incredible ability for protecting concentration. those aren't temporary hit points or actual hit points, they represent damage prevented. a 50 damage hit is a DC 25 concentration save. a 50 damage hit minus 5d8 is an average of a DC 13-14 concentration save.

I'm not going to try to argue that they are vastly superior to shadow sorcerer or anything like that, but these are not ribbons, and if they are worse than shadow sorcerer, it isn't by a large margin.

even the level 1 abilities (apart from increased spells known, which is huge) aren't exactly chopped liver.

the aberrant mind ability can be used to speak to people silently, which is useful in a variety of stealth and social situations, as well as situations where a spell requires you to speak to someone to create an effect. your suggestion spells can be subtle for free, for example, and nobody else can hear that you've just made a suggestion to your target. your familiar can scout from several miles away while giving active reports instead of 100 feet. it isn't the absolutely biggest splashy ability out there, but it can be used as often as you want.

the clockwork soul ability can be used to cancel out magic resistance. it can also be used to cancel out armour stealth penalties, disadvantage from attacking an enemy on the ground from a distance, to prevent a restrained ally from making a save at disadvantage, and so on. it isn't exciting or flashy, but it isn't weak either.

these two subclasses would not be as exciting without the extra spells known, for sure. I don't think they'd make the automatic jump to top two subclasses. but they wouldn't be at the bottom of the heap either.


Both subclasses 14th level features are strong.

Abberant Mind for 1 or more sorcery points you can give yourself 1-4 abilities that include seeing the invisible, flying, water breathing with a swim speed, and the ability to get out of grapple with just 5 feet of movement.

Clockwork Soul grants you a trance ability that assuming you have a Cha of 20 by this point lets you auto hit anything with an AC 20, and automatically make any concentration check from taking 40 or less damage. While in this trance if you cast Counterspell or Dispel Magic even using a 3rd level slot you auto succeed against anything of 4th or 5th level too.

[MrStabby]

they really didn't pay any major price for their extra spells. aberrant and clockwork, if their features are indeed worse at all, are not behind by much. I would maybe keep in mind that certain features from the older subclasses already get spells (shadow or divine, for example, should probably get 1 less, and draconic arguably gets at-will mage armour and should probably take that into account), but for the most part, aberrant mind without the 10 extra spells would be pretty comparable to what came before.

(also, I'm not sure what you think is vastly superior to transmutation/abjuration, because that's a pretty danged strong combination if you ask me).

Whilst its true that neither of these classes other abilities are as weak as they should be given their spell selection abilities, this is due to unfortunate power creep more than some kind of weakness in their spell selections.

Following a bad example of balance doesnt make balance better but worse. Using the excuse that something else is nearly as bad doesnt mean that bad homebrew isnt bad.

This is not an uncommon problem and seems to be a regular trope on the homebrew forum here:

1) homebrew something really powerful.
2) cherry pick the most powerful option you can find from all the classes, subclasses and combinations.
3) compare your creation to ONLY your selected very powerful options
4) conclude your creation isnt out of line at all and congratulate yourself on how well balanced your creation is.

It's like comparing a caster option to a wizard to argue its weak or comparing a warrior to a paladin to argue its underpowered. Of course if you pick the single most powerful option in each category even something powerful looks mediocre.

I am not saying that you should set out to produce something weak, but the sorcerer is a powerful class to begin with and doesnt need any boosts to surpass half the classes in the game.

[SharkForce]

Whilst its true that neither of these classes other abilities are as weak as they should be given their spell selection abilities, this is due to unfortunate power creep more than some kind of weakness in their spell selections.

Following a bad example of balance doesnt make balance better but worse. Using the excuse that something else is nearly as bad doesnt mean that bad homebrew isnt bad.

This is not an uncommon problem and seems to be a regular trope on the homebrew forum here:

1) homebrew something really powerful.
2) cherry pick the most powerful option you can find from all the classes, subclasses and combinations.
3) compare your creation to ONLY your selected very powerful options
4) conclude your creation isnt out of line at all and congratulate yourself on how well balanced your creation is.

It's like comparing a caster option to a wizard to argue its weak or comparing a warrior to a paladin to argue its underpowered. Of course if you pick the single most powerful option in each category even something powerful looks mediocre.

I am not saying that you should set out to produce something weak, but the sorcerer is a powerful class to begin with and doesnt need any boosts to surpass half the classes in the game.

I would never suggest that these two subclasses are not head and shoulders above the other published ones.

I do think sorcerer needed a bit of an upward nudge (there have consistently been complaints, for years, about the class, and whether you think the power level of it is fine or not the level of dissatisfaction says there is *some* problem there). whether this is too far or not, I'm unsure, but I will say that I am completely unsatisfied with the state of affairs now, with 2 subclasses that you really obviously should take, and the rest of the already-published subclasses being significantly weaker than the new ones.

but, this thread isn't about whether they *should* be more powerful. it's about whether they *are* more powerful.

[MrStabby]

I would never suggest that these two subclasses are not head and shoulders above the other published ones.

I do think sorcerer needed a bit of an upward nudge (there have consistently been complaints, for years, about the class, and whether you think the power level of it is fine or not the level of dissatisfaction says there is *some* problem there). whether this is too far or not, I'm unsure, but I will say that I am completely unsatisfied with the state of affairs now, with 2 subclasses that you really obviously should take, and the rest of the already-published subclasses being significantly weaker than the new ones.

but, this thread isn't about whether they *should* be more powerful. it's about whether they *are* more powerful.

Which are all fair points.

I think that some if this is a missed opportunity of the Alternative Class Features UA/Tasha's. For those that would be happy to trade some other class feature for more spells known or for there to be metamagic that lets one spell fulfil the role of another rather than just powering it up and so on.

But to your point, I think the new subclasses are very powerful and raise an optimised sorcerer from being a bit above average in terms of game impact to right near the top.

[HPisBS]

...
Clockwork Soul grants you a trance ability that assuming you have a Cha of 20 by this point lets you auto hit anything with an AC 20, and automatically make any concentration check from taking 40 or less damage. While in this trance if you cast Counterspell or Dispel Magic even using a 3rd level slot you auto succeed against anything of 4th or 5th level too.

?
I think you mean "you always auto succeed."

(DC is 10 + opposed spell's level, so max of 19.)



As for why all Sorcerers should or shouldn't get extra subclass spells, I'll just reiterate that without them, Sorcerers really do have it kinda rough with the fewest spells known of any full or even half caster, now that Tasha's added 5 more spells known for all Rangers.

A Shadow or Divine Soul Sorcerer now has the same number of spells known as a Beast Master or Hunter Ranger. Wild and Storm, one less. Compare to any other Ranger and the Sorcerer really starts looking like the redheaded stepchild of casters.

And with so few spells, you're liable to wind up building Sorcerers that barely have any spells tied to their Origin at all. Bonus spells would also provide an opportunity to give them spells that perfectly fit their theme, but that aren't on the Sorcerer's list. (Looking at you, Call Lightning and Storm Sorcerers!)

[Kylar0990]

?
I think you mean "you always auto succeed."

(DC is 10 + opposed spell's level, so max of 19.)



DC = (10 + spell level)

Using Trance of Order you

If you roll a 1-9 it counts as a 10. Then you add your +5 from Cha so the min you can get is a 15. Using a 3rd level slot you automatically succeed countering any spell of 5th level or lower.

[HPisBS]

DC = (10 + spell level)

Using Trance of Order you

If you roll a 1-9 it counts as a 10. Then you add your +5 from Cha so the min you can get is a 15. Using a 3rd level slot you automatically succeed countering any spell of 5th level or lower.

Oh, you're right. I guess I'm way too accustomed to my Lore Bard that gets to add 1/2 proficiency and a BI die lol

[Kylar0990]

Oh, you're right. I guess I'm way too accustomed to my Lore Bard that gets to add 1/2 proficiency and a BI die lol

Using that same Clockwork Soul feature you auto-hit with any spell attack where you target is AC 20 or lower. At level 14 your proficiency bonus is 5 and your Cha should also be +5 by then so when you can't roll below a 10 you auto-hit an AC 20.