OOTS #1227 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Ruck]

Love the pace this is moving at for the beginning of the book-- makes me all the more excited when we really get to the climactic action.

Also, this neatly answers several reader questions from the last one. I do look forward to more of Serini and the paladins talking (which I assume is what has to happen here).

[Cicciograna]

"We were friends."

Serini might be an outcast from halfling society, but she is still a halfling at heart.
And at this point, I feel that she misjudged her fellows: had she gone back to halfling society, she would have probably been accepted, because "she was their friend".

[UnintensifiedFa]

Well, that settles all the debate about "What's the other half" (Or 1/4th I guess).

Interesting to see the relationship of adventurers and other monstrous races explored, I imagine Redcloak and Serini could have some evocative discussions.

Makes me think whoever the Orange guy is is probably a Monstrous race/creature or something... probably not another troll (as those are green), but given her relationships with monstrous societies I'd bet it's something on that side.

[RMS Oceanic]

:smalleek: Well that looked painful.

[Mastikator]

Serini is now my favorite Order of the Scribble member.

[ebarde]

Oof, this honestly might be the most graphic strip in the comic for me. Following the logic that she has partial green skin and a green voice, orange voice might be of some species with orange skin/fur.

[Toper]

Only O-Chul could be that concerned about politeness while chained to a wall! I do love that a little of the old Serini seems to show at the end... and that it strains even O-Chul's patience.

[Synesthesy]

O-chul became better every time he has on screen.

[dancrilis]

I kindof wonder if Serini might be evil.
Hitting defenceless prisoners and providing them with false hope of freedom doesn't exactly scream 'good' at any rate.

[UnintensifiedFa]

"We were friends."

Serini might be an outcast from halfling society, but she is still a halfling at heart.
And at this point, I feel that she misjudged her fellows: had she gone back to halfling society, she would have probably been accepted, because "she was their friend".

Would she have? Maybe by some, but we've also seen how Monstrous races are treated in many Humanoid societies... I think her judgment has merit.
Also, I'm not sure that that's Serini's only reason (even if it is the one she said), I imagine seeing Xykon in possession of the location of every gate would be enough to get her on High alert as well. Plus, if she has any way of knowing how many gates are left (which seems likely given Girard's similar device) she'd know that this is the last gate, and is of much greater importance.

[EmperorSarda]

Looks like halfling foot hair is stronger than Troll blood transfusions.

[Lord Torath]

Thanks, Rich!

I was pretty sure O'Chul would be the one to get the right answer, since he made friends with the CitD.

[UnintensifiedFa]

Oof, this honestly might be the most graphic strip in the comic for me. Following the logic that she has partial green skin and a green voice, orange voice might be of some species with orange skin/fur.

Yeah, but it should also be something quite large, given how it was able to carry so much so far apart... I think dragon was high on the list, any other larger creatures with orange skin/fur?

[ebarde]

I kindof wonder if Serini might be evil.
Hitting defenceless prisoners and providing them with false hope of freedom doesn't exactly scream 'good' at any rate.

I mean, that's somewhat quaint compared to a lot of stuff good aligned characters have gotten away with in this comic. I think she's good but very loopy due to the extreme isolation and all.

[Schroeswald]

Whatever could this mean for the themes of the comic with regards to monster races, it could literally mean anything.

[RMS Oceanic]

Would she have? Maybe by some, but we've also seen how Monstrous races are treated in many Humanoid societies... I think her judgment has merit.
Also, I'm not sure that that's Serini's only reason (even if it is the one she said), I imagine seeing Xykon in possession of the location of every gate would be enough to get her on High alert as well. Plus, if she has any way of knowing how many gates are left (which seems likely given Girard's similar device) she'd know that this is the last gate, and is of much greater importance.

Well Utterly Dwarfed ended with what is now almost confirmed to be her voice (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1189.html) seemingly resigned to nonexistence, so there's something else going on here.

[Fyraltari]

C'me on Lien, you walked right into that one! You need to spend time with Haley.


Only O-Chul could be that concerned about politeness while chained to a wall! I do love that a little of the old Serini seems to show at the end... and that it strains even O-Chul's patience.
1) Politeness is always welcomed.
2) He still hopes to ally with her.
3) Being chained to a wall is a poor moment to be rude as you can't defend yourself if the opposite party takes offense.

[UnintensifiedFa]

Well Utterly Dwarfed ended with what is now almost confirmed to be her voice (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1189.html) seemingly resigned to nonexistence, so there's something else going on here.

This has been discussed thoroughly, but I came to the conclusion that they aren't necessarily resigned to nonexistence, but more of a jab that what they're doing could result at the end of the world at any point. Of course, I think we'll need to see further into Serini's plans to know exactly what that line meant.

[BruceGee]

This does raise the question, why didn't Xykon loot her magic items along with her diary? We know that he is unashamed to loot, both before and after this incident. Ah well, probably a question that doesn't need to be answered for a throwaway line.

[Sam K]

I kindof wonder if Serini might be evil.
Hitting defenceless prisoners and providing them with false hope of freedom doesn't exactly scream 'good' at any rate.

I quite like the idea of there being an evil defender of the gates; being evil doesn't always mean wanting world domination, after all.

But I would say her current behavior is neutral-ish. Finding out how your prisoners (who are breaking an old agreement to stay away) react is a form of interrogation, which is quite reasonable. Not even lawful good people HAVE to be nice to prisoners. Hitting them is a bit mean, though.

And yeah, O'Chul could be the breakout character! A genuinely interesting paladin.

[RMS Oceanic]

This has been discussed thoroughly, but I came to the conclusion that they aren't necessarily resigned to nonexistence, but more of a jab that what they're doing could result at the end of the world at any point. Of course, I think we'll need to see further into Serini's plans to know exactly what that line meant.

Fair, but her intention to handicap two Paladins (in terms of tactical knowledge, at least) who I assume very much like existing doesn't strike me as the most constructive course of action. At best it feels like Girard-style resentment.

Also I wonder if Belkar's own character development will be involved in appealing to her in some way. One halfling outcast to another.

[danielxcutter]

..Huh, you know, considering the events of How the Paladin Got His Scar, I think there's a very good chance of O-Chul being able to talk Serini into helping them. And maybe that's how they'll manage to convince Redcloak to get his head out of his ass and throw out the Plan.

[factotum]

This does raise the question, why didn't Xykon loot her magic items along with her diary? We know that he is unashamed to loot, both before and after this incident. Ah well, probably a question that doesn't need to be answered for a throwaway line.

Because Serini is a Rogue and Xykon doesn't give three hoots what magic items she might have, because none of them are likely to be useful for him? After all, when he's not killing or hurting people for funsies, Xykon is actually pretty pragmatic.

[UnintensifiedFa]

This does raise the question, why didn't Xykon loot her magic items along with her diary? We know that he is unashamed to loot, both before and after this incident. Ah well, probably a question that doesn't need to be answered for a throwaway line.

Maybe he did, but there were some that were more difficult to remove?

Or it could just be Xykon's Chaotic Evil nature coming through, he may be ruthless, but he's also pretty arbitrary, if he doesn't get it now, he figures he can just take it later. Remember, to Xykon, everyone is pitifully weak compared to him...

But you're right, it's not super critical to have this answered.

[HUMVEE Driver]

First time we've seen her... also the first time we've seen that level of gore. Yuck.

[Zhorn]

Sounds like they'd get along with Roy. Reminds me of his dealings with the orcs when he first met Durkon.

[Vrock Bait]

I’m so confused, isn’t Serini an epic-level rogue? Why couldn’t she just Evasion past whatever Xykon did?

Or maybe she did Evasion and instead of being totally disintegrated she was only half disintegrated?

[RMS Oceanic]

Maybe he did, but there were some that were more difficult to remove?

Or it could just be Xykon's Chaotic Evil nature coming through, he may be ruthless, but he's also pretty arbitrary, if he doesn't get it now, he figures he can just take it later. Remember, to Xykon, everyone is pitifully weak compared to him...

But you're right, it's not super critical to have this answered.

Notice when Xykon is blasting her she still has her arm and leg. Maybe because the spell wasn't finished yet, or maybe he did loot her... :smalleek:

[RMS Oceanic]

I’m so confused, isn’t Serini an epic-level rogue? Why couldn’t she just Evasion past whatever Xykon did?

Or maybe she did Evasion and instead of being totally disintegrated she was only half disintegrated?

Epic Level Casters outpace other Epic Characters by +lots. It's possible he caught her flat footed so she couldn't evade.

[Locnil]

Epic Level Casters outpace other Epic Characters by +lots. It's possible he caught her flat footed so she couldn't evade.

Then again, it's not like Xykon has a particularly optimal build...

[knag]

Well there goes my "half of Redcloak's niece" theory...

[NobleCuriosity]

I’m so confused, isn’t Serini an epic-level rogue? Why couldn’t she just Evasion past whatever Xykon did?

Or maybe she did Evasion and instead of being totally disintegrated she was only half disintegrated?

Evasion is only applicable to reflex saves (Dexterity for 5e players). Presumably Xykon used a spell that offers a different save instead, one she wasn’t as strong at.

It is rather odd that it only wrecked half her body if it wasn’t a reflex save though.

[Robots]

WOOO! New comic. Just when I'm working, too... curses.

I know it's presented in a simplistic stick figure style, but the image of Serini missing half of her flesh is... disturbing.

Can't wait for the next comic!! I love Serini so far, also.

[danielxcutter]

Maybe that just wasn't a spell that allowed a Reflex save.

...Hmm, is it just me, or has Rich left out the dialogue box in that panel?

[Doug Lampert]

I’m so confused, isn’t Serini an epic-level rogue? Why couldn’t she just Evasion past whatever Xykon did?

Or maybe she did Evasion and instead of being totally disintegrated she was only half disintegrated?

3.5 disintegrate is a ranged touch and fortitude save, rogues have no significant advantages with those.

Plenty of other spells don't attack reflex.

Also, casters >> non casters by those levels in 3.5.

[Throknor]

No idea what spell he used but I doubt it was a standard Disintegrate if he wanted her diary.

[Metastachydium]

Yeah, but it should also be something quite large, given how it was able to carry so much so far apart... I think dragon was high on the list, any other larger creatures with orange skin/fur?

It's a dragon or half-dragon. I'm basically sure now. See, there is a consistency on how dark-colour-on-light-colour speech bubbles are handled, after all. It indeed is specific to two creature types: dragons and giants. Serini got those speech bubbles because she's part giant and I'd put money on Orange gaining them due to being a chromatic metallic (half-)dragon (probably bronze or copper).

[ebarde]

I’m so confused, isn’t Serini an epic-level rogue? Why couldn’t she just Evasion past whatever Xykon did?

Or maybe she did Evasion and instead of being totally disintegrated she was only half disintegrated?

I definetly feel the implication is she took half damage

[Yanisa]

probably not another troll (as those are green)

Not all trolls are green. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0991.html) (Also bonus points for being a half-dragon.)

Could this be our mysterious ally?

[danielxcutter]

Disintegrate has always been a green laser in OotS(as well as the official description), and it actually wouldn't affect any of her items anyways.

[Sam K]

It's a dragon or half-dragon. I'm basically sure now. See, there is a consistency on how dark-colour-on-light-colour speech bubbles are handled, after all. It indeed is specific to two creature types: dragons and giants. Serini got those speech bubbles because she's part giant and I'd put money on Orange gaining them due to being a chromatic (half-)dragon (probably bronze or copper).

Wouldn't that be metallic dragons, rather than chromatic? The helper being a dragon does open up for some kind of relationship to the Draketooths - the signamancy... I mean, the color scheme, fit, at least!

[SlashDash]

I assumed the fact that half her face is gone is she took half damage...
More wondering why didn't Xykon finish the job? I think another flashback would arrive later.


What's more interesting to me, is that she is half "regular pc race" and half "monster race" which might make her the exact person needed to help bridge the gap between Durkon and Red Cloak.

[Doug Lampert]

No idea what spell he used but I doubt it was a standard Disintegrate if he wanted her diary.

That's a possible 3.0 problem and could apply, although 3.0 SRD does not specify what happens to equipment when a creature is disintegrated so the ruling in OotS world may be that "the creature" is just the creature, not the gear, but in 3.5:


Any creature reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by this spell is entirely disintegrated, leaving behind only a trace of fine dust. A disintegrated creature’s equipment is unaffected.

[danielxcutter]

That's a possible 3.0 problem and could apply, although 3.0 SRD does not specify what happens to equipment when a creature is disintegrated so the ruling in OotS world may be that "the creature" is just the creature, not the gear, but in 3.5:

When V zapped Kubota, it left a bunch of dust and his armor. Then they used Gust of Wind to blow it overboard.

[Quebbster]

3.5 disintegrate is a ranged touch and fortitude save, rogues have no significant advantages with those.

Plenty of other spells don't attack reflex.

Also, casters >> non casters by those levels in 3.5.

What about under 3.0 rules? Since the attack happened before the Order got to Dorukan's Dungeon the world should still be running on 3.0 rules at that point.
Yes, I am aware the real answer is "It doesn't really matter".

[Metastachydium]

Wouldn't that be metallic dragons, rather than chromatic?

As the reference to bronze and copper shows, that's exactly what I meant. Thanks for spotting the mistake!


The helper being a dragon does open up for some kind of relationship to the Draketooths - the signamancy... I mean, the color scheme, fit, at least!

Anyone related to the Draketooths would have (this time actually) chromatic blood. Also, they would be long dead at this point.

[Shining Wrath]

OK, so we now know that Serini is not Lawful. This is my completely shocked face. :smallfrown:
Troll blood is an interesting explanation. And it may mean that Serini is in some sense immortal - even if the halfling part dies, the troll part survives. I'm not sure how that would work in practice.
She needs to lose the cloak. It's a tripping hazard up there on the ledge.
Also, we have sort-of confirmation that this hideout is at Kragor's Tomb. Although Serini could be lying about that.

[danielxcutter]

OK, so we now know that Serini is not Lawful. This is my completely shocked face. :smallfrown:
Troll blood is an interesting explanation. And it may mean that Serini is in some sense immortal - even if the halfling part dies, the troll part survives. I'm not sure how that would work in practice.
She needs to lose the cloak. It's a tripping hazard up there on the ledge.
Also, we have sort-of confirmation that this hideout is at Kragor's Tomb. Although Serini could be lying about that.

Nitpick: Tarquin's LE and his team's been playing the entire continent like a friggin' kazoo. Redcloak's been doing much the same with Xykon, although maybe not as successfully.

[Dire_Flumph]

Not all trolls are green. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0991.html) (Also bonus points for being a half-dragon.)

Could this be our mysterious ally?

Or...a half-dragon-half-troll blood infused Tenrin?

....Probably not

[Hekko]

Wouldn't that be metallic dragons, rather than chromatic? The helper being a dragon does open up for some kind of relationship to the Draketooths - the signamancy... I mean, the color scheme, fit, at least!

I think it's safe to say all dragon relatives of Draketooths are dead because of the Familicide.



Also, we have sort-of confirmation that this hideout is at Kragor's Tomb. Although Serini could be lying about that.

Serini may also consider the room(s) being part of Kraagor's Tomb even if they are located elsewhere, especially if the access is through a stable portal/trap.

[Shining Wrath]

Math, people, do your math.
When Xykon says "I made a 3/8ths-ling" he implies he destroyed 1/4 of a halfling.
The cloud of black is not how disintegrate is usually depicted. I'm going with something more along the lines of Horrid Wilting (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/horridWilting.htm). Fort save for half, would have done around 70 points of damage unless Xykon souped it up with some epic level trick. As a high-level rogue Serini probably has around 3.5 points per level, plus her constitution bonus - so Horrid Wilting would be very close to a one-shot, depending on dice rolls.

Or something else - there's thousands of spells. There may even be one that explicitly destroys 1/4 of someone's body.

[Lapak]

Math, people, do your math.
When Xykon says "I made a 3/8ths-ling" he implies he destroyed 1/4 of a halfling.
The cloud of black is not how disintegrate is usually depicted. I'm going with something more along the lines of Horrid Wilting (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/horridWilting.htm). Fort save for half, would have done around 70 points of damage unless Xykon souped it up with some epic level trick. As a high-level rogue Serini probably has around 3.5 points per level, plus her constitution bonus - so Horrid Wilting would be very close to a one-shot, depending on dice rolls.

Or something else - there's thousands of spells. There may even be one that explicitly destroys 1/4 of someone's body.Horrid Wilting was what I was coming here to suggest.

[Shining Wrath]

Nitpick: Tarquin's LE and his team's been playing the entire continent like a friggin' kazoo. Redcloak's been doing much the same with Xykon, although maybe not as successfully.

None the less, I opine that the rogue is not Lawful. YMMV.

[One Skunk Todd]

Well the transfusion doesn't seem to have affected her reflexes much. She was pretty sprightly off the stool and up the ladder.

[Ninja Dragon]

Ok so now I want to see the paladins outplay Serini. Just so she has to endure the humulliation to be fooled by paladins.

Not that this is going to be easy, but those two are the kind who could pull it off.

[danielxcutter]

Ok so now I want to see the paladins outplay Serini. Just so she has to endure the humulliation to be fooled by paladins.

Not that this is going to be easy, but those two are the kind who could pull it off.

I think O-Chul's just going to convince her, but my evidence is all in Good Deeds Gone Unpunished(which is bonus material).

Also Horrid Wilting works better than most, but she looked charred or corroded, not shriveled into jerky.

[Stone of Light]

I kindof wonder if Serini might be evil.
Hitting defenceless prisoners and providing them with false hope of freedom doesn't exactly scream 'good' at any rate.

Eh, I'm going to argue Chaotic Neutral at most.

In regards to the hit:


The arc of the swing was rather short.
There's no battle damage on Lien in the last panel.

So, it seems like a more playful gesture than anything. Lien's OW was probably more out of shock than actual pain.

In regards to the lie, I'll admit that one's a bit more tricky, but I would imagine she's trying to crack a joke (albeit a rather in poor taste joke) at a Paladin's expense ("Haha, Paladin's are so gullible!"). Probably something she use to do with Soon all the time, given her line in the last panel. If anything, I'd argue bad judgement over evil at this point.

[danielxcutter]

Yeah, the "BONK" doesn't really imply it was really supposed to do damage.

[MoonCat]

I'm not saying it's uncharacteristic of Xykon, but it does seem incredibly careless to pull a scry-and-die on an epic level adventurer whose entire life mission is to thwart your goals of capturing a gate, and not even make sure you've killed her.

[danielxcutter]

I'm not saying it's uncharacteristic of Xykon, but it does seem incredibly careless to pull a scry-and-die on an epic level adventurer whose entire life mission is to thwart your goals of capturing a gate, and not even make sure you've killed her.

To be fair, it sounds like she probably would have died if not for the trolls.

On the other hand, she's a high-level character and Resurrection is a thing, let alone the True version; it's pretty careless not to kill her and then not Soul Bind her if you're okay with being Evil.

[RichTF]

I'm not saying it's uncharacteristic of Xykon, but it does seem incredibly careless to pull a scry-and-die on an epic level adventurer whose entire life mission is to thwart your goals of capturing a gate, and not even make sure you've killed her.
Serini does say that “[the trolls] found me moments after”, so maybe Xykon assumed that they would finish her off. We know he enjoys seeing other monsters do his dirty work for him.

[danielxcutter]

Serini does say that “[the trolls] found me moments after”, so maybe Xykon assumed that they would finish her off. We know he enjoys seeing other monsters do his dirty work for him.

...Yeah, and there's been like at most five PC race members who've actually tried to treat monstrous beings fairly, outside Evil business or being forced to. Maybe not even that; the only ones I can think of off the top of my head are Roy(the orcs in OTOOPCs), O-Chul(pretty much the entirety of his story in GDGU), and now Serini.

[Fyraltari]

Gotta say, I'm a bit disappointed in Lien for not guessing the reason. Bit aof a cynic for a pladin that one.


Also, the troll cut into their arm rather than their hand to give blood, that's a good call, scaring a hand may lead to severe loss of dexterity.


that Serini is in some sense immortal - even if the halfling part dies, the troll part survives. I'm not sure how that would work in practice.
I don't think any of her brain is made of troll, so I'd say that she's no more immortal than Henrietta Lacks (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henrietta_Lacks), or rather the troll donor is no more immortal than Lacks.

I'm not saying it's uncharacteristic of Xykon, but it does seem incredibly careless to pull a scry-and-die on an epic level adventurer whose entire life mission is to thwart your goals of capturing a gate, and not even make sure you've killed her.
She says he left her for dead so he may have thought he had made sure she was dead.

[MoonCat]

To be fair, it sounds like she probably would have died if not for the trolls.

On the other hand, she's a high-level character and Resurrection is a thing, let alone the True version; it's pretty careless not to kill her and then not Soul Bind her if you're okay with being Evil.

Exactly, she's epic-level, presumed to associate with other epic-level adventurers, and could be expected to be carrying any variety of items that might help. I feel that in a world with so many instant fixes for deadly attacks, while only a thorough person might bother to prevent ressurrection, it should be standard to make sure your opponent either has X-eyes of a pile of ash for a face

I don't think Xykon would have necessarily thought to soul-bind Lirian if not for sheer spite, but I think it made sense for him to take it as practice for all the Scribblers her killed afterwards—and this is obviously after killing Lirian, so I'm surprised he didn't.

[Ionathus]

This exchange is delightful, and answers many of my questions! Agreed with others that Serini's injuries are quite gruesome (by this comic's standards), but it does feel appropriate for the severity of it.

O-Chul gets a chance to shine with his silly "monsters might possibly have thoughts and feelings" mentality. Hoping Serini notices that, but given her dismissive response I don't think it'll score any points with her.

Nice to know she's still got at least a bit of a sense of humor (per last comic's discussion, my fear was that she'd be grizzled and old and sad and never funny).

One small detail that really sticks out to me: check out that panel where Xykon ambushes her! The details on the grassland and houses are fantastic. Really makes me wonder what some of this comic's prior environments (the plains, the Sunken Valley, much of the human lands in the Northern Continents) would look like in the new art style! And it also makes me realize just how much care & attention has been going into the mountains & caverns of Utterly Dwarfed and this book.


EDIT to respond:

Exactly, she's epic-level, presumed to associate with other epic-level adventurers, and could be expected to be carrying any variety of items that might help. I feel that in a world with so many instant fixes for deadly attacks, while only a thorough person might bother to prevent ressurrection, it should be standard to make sure your opponent either has X-eyes of a pile of ash for a face

I don't think Xykon would have necessarily thought to soul-bind Lirian if not for sheer spite, but I think it made sense for him to take it as practice for all the Scribblers her killed afterwards—and this is obviously after killing Lirian, so I'm surprised he didn't.

Agreed, I'm also a little surprised Xykon didn't at least finish her off after his first encounter with the Scribblers was so harrowing. My guess is that, since she's not a spellcaster, he didn't really consider her that big of a threat. Sorcerers can have superiority complexes too!

Xykon's now been nearly beaten by both Lirian's & Soon's defenses, and Dorukan was no cakewalk either. It's entirely on-brand that leaving Serini to die will most likely contribute to his downfall.

[Fitzclowningham]

From the last strip, I figured Serini’s magic cauldron was there to explain how a rogue could put together an amnesia potion (and possibly the dart poison) and was kind of a one-shot thing. Now it appears she is an accomplished alchemist. RAW say she’s at least a 3rd level caster. Interesting

Edit: duh, the cauldron being magic probably allows a non-caster to brew potions. Still interesting that she thinks outside of the rogue box

[IntelectPaladin]

While seeing Roy's body regenerate some time ago may be considered to be more graphic, it's generally considered to be him healing, as a positive.
Today's graphic was quite a negative (no pun intended), so it has an understandably higher shock value, I believe.

Also, am I the only one still worried for the Paladin's memories? Serini seems quite set on carrying out her mental execution, of a sort.
(In that the loss of the memories would be in effect 'killing' their selves that knew of her.)

Here's hoping for better than we worry about.

[Hiro Quester]

Her penchant for lying to paladins is also borne out by their first meeting (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1189.html), now we know that the claims about poison were a successful bluff.

[Rogar Demonblud]

...Yeah, and there's been like at most five PC race members who've actually tried to treat monstrous beings fairly, outside Evil business or being forced to. Maybe not even that; the only ones I can think of off the top of my head are Roy(the orcs in OTOOPCs), O-Chul(pretty much the entirety of his story in GDGU), and now Serini.

Elan, when he converted the Island Orcs to Banjo/Gigglesism.

[MoonCat]

Serini does say that “[the trolls] found me moments after”, so maybe Xykon assumed that they would finish her off. We know he enjoys seeing other monsters do his dirty work for him.

I love that interpretation, since it plays on the cynicism and disrespect for monsters to cause Xykon's eventual downfall. (Though/And it raises some uncomfortable parallels with Lien's disappointing answer to Serini now.)


She says he left her for dead so he may have thought he had made sure she was dead.

Well, yes. I have no doubt that he thought he killed her. I just think it's very careless in the OoTS world to assume someone's dead (and more importantly, unable to come back) just because they're a charred lump of raw meat.

[Hiro Quester]

Eh, I'm going to argue Chaotic Neutral at most.
I was thinking the same. But possibly even chaotic good. Loves lying to paladins, but makes friends with trolls.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Well, yes. I have no doubt that he thought he killed her. I just think it's very careless in the OoTS world to assume someone's dead (and more importantly, unable to come back) just because they're a charred lump of raw meat.

A Ring of Regeneration would've had her back on her feet in a day, tops.

[danielxcutter]

Exactly, she's epic-level, presumed to associate with other epic-level adventurers, and could be expected to be carrying any variety of items that might help. I feel that in a world with so many instant fixes for deadly attacks, while only a thorough person might bother to prevent ressurrection, it should be standard to make sure your opponent either has X-eyes of a pile of ash for a face

I don't think Xykon would have necessarily thought to soul-bind Lirian if not for sheer spite, but I think it made sense for him to take it as practice for all the Scribblers her killed afterwards—and this is obviously after killing Lirian, so I'm surprised he didn't.

I was talking with a friend about that, and his response was ""What danger is a class whose primary feature I am immune to?" I could see it. Ironic given his disdain for Wizard snobbery"

Sounds fairly accurate(and incredibly short-sighted even so, admittedly), if you ask me,


This exchange is delightful, and answers many of my questions! Agreed with others that Serini's injuries are quite gruesome (by this comic's standards), but it does feel appropriate for the severity of it.

O-Chul gets a chance to shine with his silly "monsters might possibly have thoughts and feelings" mentality. Hoping Serini notices that, but given her dismissive response I don't think it'll score any points with her.

...Do you actually think it's "silly"? Because I think Rich's trying to make a point that it's not. Also if anyone gets through to Serini it'd be O-Chul.


Nice to know she's still got at least a bit of a sense of humor (per last comic's discussion, my fear was that she'd be grizzled and old and sad and never funny).

Same really; she feels like a mixture of Belkar and Haley minus the wanton stabbing and money fetish


One small detail that really sticks out to me: check out that panel where Xykon ambushes her! The details on the grassland and houses are fantastic. Really makes me wonder what some of this comic's prior environments (the plains, the Sunken Valley, much of the human lands in the Northern Continents) would look like in the new art style! And it also makes me realize just how much care & attention has been going into the mountains & caverns of Utterly Dwarfed and this book.

Yeah, the artstyle's improved a LOT in the past two books.


Also, I suppose I should have seen the only Scribbler able to help being the one who can't just do the fight for the OotS. Soon and Kraagor would probably do more damage to the big X, each, and don't even get me started on the casters. Serini is limited, however, because she can't hurt Xykon and they need Redcloak alive to seal the Rifts for good.

[Corian]

I don't think Xykon would have necessarily thought to soul-bind Lirian if not for sheer spite, but I think it made sense for him to take it as practice for all the Scribblers her killed afterwards—and this is obviously after killing Lirian, so I'm surprised he didn't.

I have the opposite impression: I think he got the diary before his attack on Lirian (if only to know where to attack Lirian in the first place.) So soul binding might have become a new tactic from then on.

[danielxcutter]

From the last strip, I figured Serini’s magic cauldron was there to explain how a rogue could put together an amnesia potion (and possibly the dart poison) and was kind of a one-shot thing. Now it appears she is an accomplished alchemist. RAW say she’s at least a 3rd level caster. Interesting

Edit: duh, the cauldron being magic probably allows a non-caster to brew potions. Still interesting that she thinks outside of the rogue box

Thinking outside the box is a rogue thing in general. Spellcasters stuff you inside the box and shake it.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Redcloak guided them to Lirian, because that was the one Gate they already knew of. Seriously, if anyone hasn't already bought and read Start of Darkness, do so as soon as possible.

[Wildstag]

Well this lends weight to the theory that the isolation wasn't actually the policy they went with, just the policy they treated Soon with. Between the bet, the romance, and the "lie to paladins" attitude, we have more concrete evidence that the other gate defenders were in cahoots and contact with each other and left Soon to his own devices.

Kinda sad, to be honest, that none of them seems to have been cordial with Soon.


Seriously, if anyone hasn't already bought and read Start of Darkness, do so as soon as possible.

Ah yes the "why don't you all have disposable income too?" argument.

[MoonCat]

A Ring of Regeneration would've had her back on her feet in a day, tops.

Exactly! Maybe he didn't care if she lived or not... Not that that makes it any better.


I was talking with a friend about that, and his response was ""What danger is a class whose primary feature I am immune to?" I could see it. Ironic given his disdain for Wizard snobbery"

Sounds fairly accurate(and incredibly short-sighted even so, admittedly), if you ask me.

Yes, I think this is all very characteristic of Xykon, but it might still be literally the worst tactical decision/dumbest move in general we've ever seen him make.


I have the opposite impression: I think he got the diary before his attack on Lirian (if only to know where to attack Lirian in the first place.) So soul binding might have become a new tactic from then on.

You'll have to bear with me, as my copy of of SoD is on a different continent, but I am certain that this is after he encountered Lirian.

Xykon becomes a lich while attacking Lirian's gate, and only learns about the other locations (thereby necessitating his search for Serini's diary) when he manages to kill Lirian.

[danielxcutter]

Comment on Reddit: (https://www.reddit.com/r/oots/comments/ls6ync/1227_like_riding_a_bike_giant_in_the_playground/gopdx0z?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)

I guess you could say the paladins got trolled.

Me:
https://tenor.com/view/undertale-papyrus-mad-screaming-skull-gif-5769055

[MoonCat]

Redcloak guided them to Lirian, because that was the one Gate they already knew of. Seriously, if anyone hasn't already bought and read Start of Darkness, do so as soon as possible.

Come now, it's not for everyone to spend their money on prequels to the webcomics they follow, and the Giant has been very clear that any important information will be revealed in-comic as well.

On which note, have I misremembered, or don't we still need to spoiler the Lirian stuff because it hasn't been in the main strip yet?

[danielxcutter]

Come now, it's not for everyone to spend their money on prequels to the webcomics they follow, and the Giant has been very clear that any important information will be revealed in-comic as well.

On which note, have I misremembered, or don't we still need to spoiler the Lirian stuff because it hasn't been in the main strip yet?

Sounds fair enough on both accounts.

[KorvinStarmast]

"We were friends." I like that.

Well, that settles all the debate about "What's the other half" (Or 1/4th I guess). I guessed Hag, and missed. (Granted, Hags and Trolls seem to work together in 5e lore, not sure how 3.x lore handles that)

Only O-Chul could be that concerned about politeness while chained to a wall! O-Chul: still killing it as "this is how to be a paladin" even though he's multi class as Fighter/Paladin.
I kindof wonder if Serini might be evil. Why would that matter? "Evil" isn't one big happy, or unhappy, family anymore than Good is (see Miko and Roy on the LG issue right there ...)
Looks like halfling foot hair is stronger than Troll blood transfusions. *giggle* Nice catch.
This does raise the question, why didn't Xykon loot her magic items along with her diary? He showed, for once, a little bit of self discipline: he had a focus on getting that diary, and he did precisely that. Her other toys may very well have been of no use to him.
I think there's a very good chance of O-Chul being able to talk Serini into helping them. Hmm, given Serini's long experience and ability to bluff and such, that's a tough bet to back.

I know it's presented in a simplistic stick figure style, but the image of Serini missing half of her flesh is... disturbing. More or less disturbing that the drawn effects of the disintegrate spell that's been used numerous times in the strip?

1. Thanks Giant.
2. Serini smiles / grins in the last panel. That really made the strip for me.
3. O-Chul - of course, he does his usual.
4. Half Troll - nice job on the creativity, Giant. (My Hag guess is wrong, and I am happy that it is so since Half Troll can also underscore Serini's longevity).

[Corian]

You'll have to bear with me, as my copy of of SoD is on a different continent, but I am certain that this is after he encountered Lirian.


I feel really silly right now. You're right of course.

ETA: and that seems all the more insightful:

I was talking with a friend about that, and his response was ""What danger is a class whose primary feature I am immune to?" I could see it. Ironic given his disdain for Wizard snobbery"

[Ionathus]

...Do you actually think it's "silly"? Because I think Rich's trying to make a point that it's not. Also if anyone gets through to Serini it'd be O-Chul.

No, I was shooting for sarcasm, adding my voice to Schroeswald's earlier tongue-in-cheek comment:


Whatever could this mean for the themes of the comic with regards to monster races, it could literally mean anything.

[understatement]

In regards to Xykon leaving Serini alive, is it possible that he didn't know she was an epic-level rogue? (and that she'd only survive because she was so high level).

[Tokeull]

Another reason why Xykon did not killed her. She is an epic level rogue. Drink a inviseble potion and hide. Her sneak skills are just so high, Xykon would not find her. We know Xykon is bad at divination.

[Rogar Demonblud]

He'd fought Lirian twice at that point. He had a pretty good idea how powerful her friends and adventuring compatriots would be.

[danielxcutter]

In regards to Xykon leaving Serini alive, is it possible that he didn't know she was an epic-level rogue? (and that she'd only survive because she was so high level).


Another reason why Xykon did not killed her. She is an epic level rogue. Drink a inviseble potion and hide. Her sneak skills are just so high, Xykon would not find her. We know Xykon is bad at divination.

If he's a lich he must have known Serini was a former Scribbler, because he became a lich to defeat Lirian. Who he knew was an epic spellcaster.

So yeah, he probably knew she was an epic rogue. The reason might have been because she's an epic rogue.

[DaOldeWolf]

No wonder Soon was always scowling around her. She probably liked to poke Soon, the paladin too.

[WindStruck]

What I'm still wondering is how Xykon would have known to even track down Serini. She looks young in the flashbacks, so this apparently happened a long time ago...

So much important information is in her diary, and it's easy to figure out her identity and about the other Order of the Scribble with it. But without the diary, it still begs the question of how he would know to go after her.

[Terbovus]

Loving the recent updates.

Is it just me, or is it not a particularly well hidden Troll village, at least given the glimpse we get - seems to be rather out in the open!

[Kantaki]

And what do we learn from this?
Not being a murder-hobo is good for your health.:smallamused:


Well this lends weight to the theory that the isolation wasn't actually the policy they went with, just the policy they treated Soon with. Between the bet, the romance, and the "lie to paladins" attitude, we have more concrete evidence that the other gate defenders were in cahoots and contact with each other and left Soon to his own devices.

Kinda sad, to be honest, that none of them seems to have been cordial with Soon.

I don't think it was intentional, really.
Dorukan and Lirian might well have agreed with the core plan of keeping the Gates and their defenses independent from each other, but not the "never see your lover again" part.

I don't think they were in contact with Girard and Serini though. I think those two trusted the rest of the party as much as each other. Definitely not Soon.
Basically a split between the chaotic and the more lawfully inclined parts of the party.

And Soon himself? Paladin. Of course he stuck to the alignment. He'd probably have ignored any attempt to communicate.

[Fitzclowningham]

What I'm still wondering is how Xykon would have known to even track down Serini. She looks young in the flashbacks, so this apparently happened a long time ago...

So much important information is in her diary, and it's easy to figure out her identity and about the other Order of the Scribble with it. But without the diary, it still begs the question of how he would know to go after her.

It did take him a long time for him to find her

[Dentarthur]

Horrific scars. Friends with trolls. Capturing paladins. Toying with prisoners.

Damn. Serini has gone full villain.

[Michaeler]

As for why Xykon didn't finish her off, he was excited.

Don't you get that in games? Just as the plot is taking off and the quests get interesting the players forget to do something because they're so eager to find the next plot point? We know how easily Xykon gets bored and here he had a book of useful information central to his next rampage and filled with juicy secrets.

Make sure the owner is dead? Meh whatever. Sure it's a mistake but it's a mistake that gets made a lot in-game.

[Ionathus]

I don't think it was intentional, really.
Dorukan and Lirian might well have agreed with the core plan of keeping the Gates and their defenses independent from each other, but not the "never see your lover again" part.

I don't think they were in contact with Girard and Serini though. I think those two trusted the rest of the party as much as each other. Definitely not Soon.
Basically a split between the chaotic and the more lawfully inclined parts of the party.

And Soon himself? Paladin. Of course he stuck to the alignment. He'd probably have ignored any attempt to communicate.

Which just makes this whole "break all contact" situation even sadder. Maybe Serini reached out to warn them all about Xykon, and maybe some of those communications didn't get through. "Hey there's an epic sorcerer Lich headed your way, and he knows EXACTLY where the gates are." would be vital tactical info for any of them.

My money's on us learning even more about what happened to the Scribblers. Maybe not right now, but at some point before the finale.

[Hiro Quester]

Further support for the thesis that the spell Xykon cast was Horrid Wilting, is the way it’s depicted (black shadowy cloudy cone) when the Exarch tries to cast it from a scroll (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1164.html), and Belkar disrupts the spell.

[danielxcutter]

Further support for the thesis that the spell Xykon cast was Horrid Wilting, is the way it’s depicted (black shadowy cloudy cone) when the Exarch tries to cast it from a scroll (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1164.html), and Bella’s disrupts the spell.

No, that's just the magical aura that appears when people cast spells; most undead(including the Ex-arch) have black auras. Also Horrid Wilting strips the moisture from creatures, and Serini looks burned or corroded.

[Kantaki]

Loving the recent updates.

Is it just me, or is it not a particularly well hidden Troll village, at least given the glimpse we get - seems to be rather out in the open!

Hidden is relative, I guess?.
It might just be hard to get to and/or far away from everything.
And Serini got attacked almost right next to it.

Or maybe it's a hidden troll village, not a hidden troll village. The locals don't hide the settlement, but that they're trolls.

[Ghosty]

Perhaps Xykon didn't know that this particular handling was Serini? Until he looted her diary, anyway. Though I can't see Xykon looting some random's nonmagical book. As already noted, he likely that he thought it more funny to think of a Troll village taking her apart, than to spend any extra time killing her himself. He certainly wouldn't think they'd do anything else with her. And Xykon isn't exactly thorough or conscientious.

Perhaps he got distracted by something else that prevented him from making sure she was dead. Perhaps he simply didn't consider her a threat. If you don't make it personal with Xykon, or offend his ego, Xykon will still try to kill you, but he won't put his...well, "heart" is the wrong word...into it.

Though it is odd that, if Serini was carrying a load of magic items like she said (she might've been lying) that he wouldn't have looted them too. There's two parts to that "Kill them and take their stuff" trope, and he likes both. Especially if "they usually have pretty good stuff!"

[Anitar]

Those trolls in panel 6... I guess noses do exist in this world after all. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0339.html)


Also, I suppose I should have seen the only Scribbler able to help being the one who can't just do the fight for the OotS. Soon and Kraagor would probably do more damage to the big X, each, and don't even get me started on the casters. Serini is limited, however, because she can't hurt Xykon and they need Redcloak alive to seal the Rifts for good.

Soon did do heavy damage. Would've killed Xykon and RC single-handedly, despite already being dead himself.

[Rogar Demonblud]

What I'm still wondering is how Xykon would have known to even track down Serini. She looks young in the flashbacks, so this apparently happened a long time ago...

So much important information is in her diary, and it's easy to figure out her identity and about the other Order of the Scribble with it. But without the diary, it still begs the question of how he would know to go after her.

Divination magic, most likely. We're shown a panel of him trying to visit the Oracle, likely he used somebody else as well. And being a lich it's not like he needs to sleep anymore.

[Robots]

More or less disturbing that the drawn effects of the disintegrate spell that's been used numerous times in the strip?

...I was just saying I found it disturbing. I'm not measuring it against other stuff in the comic. I think that's just because of the... visible flesh.

[Yirggzmb]

Yep, it's official. I will now be reading the rest of Serini's lines in the voice of old Toph from Legend of Korra. That last panel especially works.

[danielxcutter]

Those trolls in panel 6... I guess noses do exist in this world after all. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0339.html)

I think the scrags that attacked the fleet also had noses.


Soon did do heavy damage. Would've killed Xykon and RC single-handedly, despite already being dead himself.

And this changes my point how? Granted, being incorporeal probably did do wonders for his ability to keep hitting Xykon.

[Anitar]

And this changes my point how? Granted, being incorporeal probably did do wonders for his ability to keep hitting Xykon.

It doesn't. I'm just saying, the thing you brought up isn't actually hypothetical.

[Fyraltari]

I don't think Xykon would have necessarily thought to soul-bind Lirian if not for sheer spite, but I think it made sense for him to take it as practice for all the Scribblers her killed afterwards—and this is obviously after killing Lirian, so I'm surprised he didn't.
I don't think it was a habit of his. He only did it to Dorukan to twist his "wanting to be with his woman" not realizing they would be fine with that.


Well this lends weight to the theory that the isolation wasn't actually the policy they went with, just the policy they treated Soon with. Between the bet, the romance, and the "lie to paladins" attitude, we have more concrete evidence that the other gate defenders were in cahoots and contact with each other and left Soon to his own devices.

Kinda sad, to be honest, that none of them seems to have been cordial with Soon.
I'm not so sure, we only have evidence that serini talked to Girard once, and Dorukan and Lirian were already together before. We have no evidence any other contact happened. then again, it's possible Dorukan provided the teleportation trap of Monster Hollow (then again, if my understanding of D&D magic is correct, somebody would be needed to recast the spell regularly right? Then it's not him.)

What I'm still wondering is how Xykon would have known to even track down Serini. She looks young in the flashbacks, so this apparently happened a long time ago...
Xykon disapeared six years ago and came back with the diary three years ago. Either this is a continuity mistake or Serini kept her brown hair longer than usual. Or maybe she went white prematurely from the trauma of the attack, weirder things have been known to happen.

Horrific scars. Friends with trolls. Capturing paladins. Toying with prisoners.

Damn. Serini has gone full villain.
Please, she's barely at mischevious neutral level.

[Gnome Alone]

Serini is the best. Seriously, what a cool character. Feels like something you'd see in a real D&D game, too - "this is my elderly halfling roguen whose been partially transformed by an infusion of troll blood."

I'm kinda surprised that O-Chul didn't state the obvious; simple friendship with monsters oughta be something he knows all about, eh? But then J guess that does set up Serini's great line, out-Gooding the paladin.

[Kantaki]

I'm kinda surprised that O-Chul didn't state the obvious; simple friendship with monsters oughta be something he knows all about, eh? But then J guess that does set up Serini's great line, out-Gooding the paladin.

He did say it. Just in a overly poetic way.
Formal. Polite?
Something like that.
Just blurting it out wouldn't be him.

[danielxcutter]

He did say it. Just in a overly poetic way.
Formal. Polite?
Something like that.
Just blurting it out wouldn't be him.

Yeah, that makes sense.

[Ghosty]

Gotta say, I'm a bit disappointed in Lien for not guessing the reason. Bit aof a cynic for a pladin that one...

Which makes her getting thwacked in the head by Serini in a, "Zen Master corrects pupil," way, quite appropriate. That's how I understood that panel.

I wonder how the beneficial arrangement between Serini and the Trolls even started? Good thing she tried dealing with them as individual sentient entities, inherently worthy of respect.

[danielxcutter]

Which makes her getting thwacked in the head by Serini in a, "Zen Master corrects pupil," way, quite appropriate. That's how I understood that panel.

Yeah, more like a dope slap than anything.


I wonder how the beneficial arrangement between Serini and the Trolls even started? Good thing she tried dealing with them as individual sentient entities, inherently worthy of respect.

Huh, good question. Adventurers in the OotSverse who are willing to even talk with monstrous creatures are apparently rare.

[Ionathus]

He did say it. Just in a overly poetic way.
Formal. Polite?
Something like that.
Just blurting it out wouldn't be him.

In fact, O-Chul's approach was actually more insightful in a way.

Just saying "you were friends" only looks at Serini's individual interaction with the trolls.

Saying "simply buying from them is likely more respect than they've ever received from any of us" looks at the broader picture, and acknowledges what life is like for most trolls when interacting with PC races. Recognizing an isolated friendship doesn't take much insight, but O-Chul's outlook is clearly a lot more empathetic.

[Metastachydium]

I don't think it was a habit of his. He only did it to Dorukan to twist his "wanting to be with his woman" not realizing they would be fine with that.

…and he only did it to Lirian because he wanted her to watch her body getting zombified, figuring it would offend her as a druid.

[Doug Lampert]

What about under 3.0 rules? Since the attack happened before the Order got to Dorukan's Dungeon the world should still be running on 3.0 rules at that point.
Yes, I am aware the real answer is "It doesn't really matter".

3.0 SRD says it "A thin, green ray springs from the character's pointing finger, causing the creature or object it strikes to glow and vanish, leaving behind only a trace of fine dust. The character must make a successful ranged touch attack to hit. Up to a 10-foot cube of nonliving matter is affected, so the spell disintegrates only part of any very large object or structure targeted. The ray affects even magical matter or energy of a magical nature but not a globe of invulnerability or an antimagic field. A creature or object that makes a successful Fortitude save is only partially affected. It takes 5d6 points of damage instead of disintegrating. Only the first creature or object struck can be affected (that is, the ray affects only one target per casting)."

So you tell me what happens in 3.0? It only gets the first creature OR object, which means if it hits a creature it should not get any objects, including carried objects. But the creature vanishes, leaving behind only fine dust, so maybe it doesn't leave objects carried.

Who knows? I don't have my actual books handy, which might give more information in the "fluff" not included in the SRD.

[Pory]

Xykon disapeared six years ago and came back with the diary three years ago. Either this is a continuity mistake or Serini kept her brown hair longer than usual. Or maybe she went white prematurely from the trauma of the attack, weirder things have been known to happen.

You're right, the white hair has to be a side effect of Xykon's attack or the troll's blood. Maybe she looks old now but she's probably still relatively young for a halfling.
Now that I think about it, the troll's blood explains the green face and limbs but why it's the speech bubble green? Have we seen any kind of troll speaking in the comic before? Is that the way they talk or it's something different that we still don't know about?

[DaOldeWolf]

You're right, the white hair has to be a side effect of Xykon's attack or the troll's blood. Maybe she looks old now but she's probably still relatively young for a halfling.
Now that I think about it, the troll's blood explains the green face and limbs but why it's the speech bubble green? Have we seen any kind of troll speaking in the comic before? Is that the way they talk or it's something different that we still don't know about?

We have seen a sea troll speak here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0506.html).

[gatemansgc]

so how many people called "troll blood"? i'm not gonna scroll through the discussion for the last comic!

her hair resisted xykon's attack better than her flesh though O_o

[One Skunk Todd]

I wonder how Serini and the MitD will get along if they meet.

[Anitar]

so how many people called "troll blood"? i'm not gonna scroll through the discussion for the last comic!

Troll, specifically? None. Blood, specifically? None that I recall. People were focusing more on possibilities of half-undeath, or something about hag skin.

[PontificatusRex]

Elan, when he converted the Island Orcs to Banjo/Gigglesism.

One could say that Lien and the whole Azurite nation had friendly/respectful relations with a monster race, since they set up a trade deal with the orcs after everything calmed down.

[Jasdoif]

What I'm still wondering is how Xykon would have known to even track down Serini. She looks young in the flashbacks, so this apparently happened a long time ago...

So much important information is in her diary, and it's easy to figure out her identity and about the other Order of the Scribble with it. But without the diary, it still begs the question of how he would know to go after her.Divination magic, most likely. We're shown a panel of him trying to visit the Oracle, likely he used somebody else as well. And being a lich it's not like he needs to sleep anymore.It would certainly be valid legend lore (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/legendLore.htm) material, and maybe this is what first led Xykon to Quest Buy (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0376.html).

[PracticalM]

For all the people saying Serini has gone evil, from her perspective the Paladins are breaking the rules about keeping the defense of gates isolated.
Yes, if she has one of those devices regarding the status of the other gates then she knows this is the last one, but it's the Paladins breaking the rules first.

We don't yet know what she thinks and I hope more of it comes out in the next few strips.

It might be that she thinks the Paladins are responsible for the dead gates.
She seems to be aware that the loss of the gates will mean the end of the world but she might not know that the gods will unmake the world instead of Snarl destroying it. (I don't see how she could know about the billions of worlds the gods have made.)

It may be that she wants to go down fighting to protect the last gate because she thinks there's nothing left.

Do the Paladins know that Lirian and Dorukan are trapped in the gem? That might be a reason for Serini to change her plans. I don't think anyone outside of team evil knows this though.

[KorvinStarmast]

Serini is the best. Seriously, what a cool character. Feels like something you'd see in a real D&D game, too - "this is my elderly halfling roguen whose been partially transformed by an infusion of troll blood." Yeah, very D&D.

He did say it. Just in a overly poetic way.
Formal. Polite?
Something like that.
Just blurting it out wouldn't be him. +1

You're right, the white hair has to be a side effect of Xykon's attack or the troll's blood. Maybe she looks old now but she's probably still relatively young for a halfling. Not likely. Been 60+ years since Scribblers and she was an adult, perhaps a young adult, when she was in that adventuring band.
I wonder how Serini and the MitD will get along if they meet. Two silver pieces says: Famously.

It may be that she wants to go down fighting to protect the last gate because she thinks there's nothing left. Given that she's an epic level adventurer, I'll say that's an easy bet to back.

[Ionathus]

You're right, the white hair has to be a side effect of Xykon's attack or the troll's blood. Maybe she looks old now but she's probably still relatively young for a halfling.
Now that I think about it, the troll's blood explains the green face and limbs but why it's the speech bubble green? Have we seen any kind of troll speaking in the comic before? Is that the way they talk or it's something different that we still don't know about?


Not likely. Been 60+ years since Scribblers and she was an adult, perhaps a young adult, when she was in that adventuring band.

Looking at the artwork, I think there's a hint that troll blood caused her hair to go white: look at the panel where Xykon attacks her, and then the panel where she's getting the infusion. Her hair has already developed noticeable streaks.

[Bacon Elemental]

For all the people saying Serini has gone evil, from her perspective the Paladins are breaking the rules about keeping the defense of gates isolated.
Yes, if she has one of those devices regarding the status of the other gates then she knows this is the last one, but it's the Paladins breaking the rules first.

We don't yet know what she thinks and I hope more of it comes out in the next few strips.

It might be that she thinks the Paladins are responsible for the dead gates.
She seems to be aware that the loss of the gates will mean the end of the world but she might not know that the gods will unmake the world instead of Snarl destroying it. (I don't see how she could know about the billions of worlds the gods have made.)



This is a very good point - in 695, Girard's Greater Illusion Of Paladin Mockery (And Explosion) informs us that it was set to inform Girard's clan AND Serini when Soon cheated (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0695.html). This definitely tells us something about where Serini's opinions about the Scribblers lay, even if she broke up the actual violence. Girard didn't tell it to warn everyone else to rub it in Soon's face, Girard only wanted himself and one other individual to know, so they must have been pretty close, given his paranoia.

So Serini knows the Paladins went looking for Girard's Gate only a few weeks before the actual thing blew up, and then Xykon showed up within hours at Monster Hollow

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[Yanisa]

Maybe she looks old now but she's probably still relatively young for a halfling.

I am unsure why so many people think halflings live long, but they don't get that much older then humans, as compared to elves and dwarves.

From the DnD 3.5 rules: (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm)
Race - Middle Age - Old - Venerable - Maximum Age
Human - 35 years - 53 years - 70 years - +2d20 years
Halfling - 50 years - 75 years - 100 years - +5d20 years


Not likely. Been 60+ years since Scribblers and she was an adult, perhaps a young adult, when she was in that adventuring band.
Yup, Serini was most likely around the age of 80 during that attack.

[Steveio]

You're right, the white hair has to be a side effect of Xykon's attack or the troll's blood. Maybe she looks old now but she's probably still relatively young for a halfling.
Now that I think about it, the troll's blood explains the green face and limbs but why it's the speech bubble green? Have we seen any kind of troll speaking in the comic before? Is that the way they talk or it's something different that we still don't know about?

If I had to guess, the speech bubbles are a result of her larynx being part-troll as well, and that changed how her voice sounds.

[Beni-Kujaku]

I have got an idea for what the spell Xykon used was. To all that asked why Xykon didn't make sure Serini was dead and didn't Soul Bind her, I'm pretty sure it is because the spell he used was Blackfire from Complete Arcane. Not only does it fit the visual (it's litterally black fire on the panel), it is a medium range Necromancy spell that slowly turns one's body into black ash (loses Constitution each round until death). So the effect is right, seeing as Serini wasn't all burnt when she was hit by the spell, but had limbs burnt later. And even more, when someone is killed by this spell, they are nigh-impossible to resurrect (True res or Wish only AND a CL check), which nobody in the Scribblers, and probably the world could accomplish at the time, if I'm not mistaken. So there was little reason to double check, since the chances someone with low Fortitude succeeds three checks in a row are close to zero, and little reason to take further action, since nobody alive could resurrect her anyway.

[Jetty]

...she is half "regular pc race" and half "monster race" ...

A pc monster race, even? :smallbiggrin:

[Sky_Schemer]

No, that's just the magical aura that appears when people cast spells; most undead(including the Ex-arch) have black auras. Also Horrid Wilting strips the moisture from creatures, and Serini looks burned or corroded.

Incendiary Cloud would fit.

[Fyraltari]

You're right, the white hair has to be a side effect of Xykon's attack or the troll's blood. Maybe she looks old now but she's probably still relatively young for a halfling.
I was more thinking the traumtism itself. Alledgedly someone's hair can go full white in a couple of weeks after a brush with death but there's scarce scientific evidence on the subject.

Now that I think about it, the troll's blood explains the green face and limbs but why it's the speech bubble green? Have we seen any kind of troll speaking in the comic before? Is that the way they talk or it's something different that we still don't know about?
I guess her vocal cords have been damaged and partly replaced by a troll's resulting in a wonky voice.

Do the Paladins know that Lirian and Dorukan are trapped in the gem? That might be a reason for Serini to change her plans. I don't think anyone outside of team evil knows this though.
Unless Xykon or Redcloak told somebody off-screen, no-one knows. Honestly it seems like Lirian and Dorukan had a happy ending so I'd doubt we'll ever see the gem again, except maybe if it is destroy during the ending.

Not likely. Been 60+ years since Scribblers and she was an adult, perhaps a young adult
Maybe she went gray late in life then. Or maybe halfling biology is different (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0165.html).

I am unsure why so many people think halflings live long, but they don't get that much older then humans, as compared to elves and dwarves.

From the DnD 3.5 rules: (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm)
Race - Middle Age - Old - Venerable - Maximum Age
Human - 35 years - 53 years - 70 years - +2d20 years
Halfling - 50 years - 75 years - 100 years - +5d20 years
So any halfling can live naturally to [105:200] years old? Seems like brown hair by 80-100 is justified.

[Liquor Box]

Serini is coming off as kind of evil. Do we think it's because she got her blood mixed with troll blood, and troll are an evil race?

[Cadmium]

Maybe she used to dye her hair, but she stopped bothering once she became all monstrified.

[KorvinStarmast]

Serini is coming off as kind of evil. Do we think it's because she got her blood mixed with troll blood, and troll are an evil race? Who is this 'we' that you are referring to? :smallconfused: Do you think this?

[Fyraltari]

Serini is coming off as kind of evil.
Scolding people for assuming selfish motives over selfless one comes off as evil to you?

Do we think it's because she got her blood mixed with troll blood, and troll are an evil race?
Ah, yes the evil race who save people form death (at the hands of a human, I might add) necause they're fond of them. How villainous.

Also, this is the author's position on the subject of "evil races":



Hmm- how do we retain the alignment system (as per the much earlier post about liking some of it) while jettisoning all "unfortunate implications"?

Maybe, for all Monster Manuals, leave out the alignment line in a statblock entirely?
Yeah, I think that would take care of 90% of the problem. I mean, you can still describe the goblins' place in the world and how they usually live by raiding civilized nations without passing a personal moral judgment on all of them. Let alignment be something assigned by the DM when he places that creature in his campaign. If he wants them to be amoral slavers, he gives them and Evil alignment; if he wants them to be scrappy survivors making the best out of their lot in life, he might give them True Neutral or even Chaotic Good (especially if the civilized nations are Evil Empires). DMs already do that for every human that appears, is it so difficult to imagine doing it for the other races, too? Leave inborn alignment to the overtly supernatural—if it exists at all—and away from biological creatures.

EDIT:

Maybe she used to dye her hair, but she stopped bothering once she became all monstrified.

I love how simple and obvious that explanation is.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Serini is coming off as kind of evil. Do we think it's because she got her blood mixed with troll blood, and troll are an evil race?

We've seen multiple times that "Good" and "Evil" are more an affair of culture and education than race in this comic (the teen goblins, Oona seems pretty neutral, the MitD is clearly good...). And Serini takes the time and effort to capture paladins and erase their memories instead of killing them even though, to her, they have broken the last oath of their party. I'm pretty sure she's not evil, and if she was it would not be because of some blood, but only because she is desperate and bitter to not be able to live in a society anymore.

[RMS Oceanic]

Looking at the artwork, I think there's a hint that troll blood caused her hair to go white: look at the panel where Xykon attacks her, and then the panel where she's getting the infusion. Her hair has already developed noticeable streaks.

Nah, I think it just turned white as a response to incredible stress. Stress caused by traumatic life threatening injuries.

[KorvinStarmast]

I have got an idea for what the spell Xykon used was. To all that asked why Xykon didn't make sure Serini was dead and didn't Soul Bind her, I'm pretty sure it is because the spell he used was Blackfire from Complete Arcane. This post was worth coming back to the thread for today. Thanks; I'll check that book when I get to where it is.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Maybe she used to dye her hair, but she stopped bothering once she became all monstrified.

Dye? Not Epic enough. Obviously she got a long-term illusion from Girard that eventually ran out. Or just regular applications of Prestidigitation.

[Anitar]

Dye? Not Epic enough. Obviously she got a long-term illusion from Girard that eventually ran out. Or just regular applications of Prestidigitation.

Prestidigitation? Not Epic enough. Obviously she soloed a giant monster and used its brown blood that eventually ran out.

[Michaeler]

Since people have been getting philosophical, does anyone know where to find Rich's article about the two evil overlords who knew each other since childhood and were friends in spite of it making no sense?

It seems relevant.

[QTR]

I think Belkar is really going to like her.

[Corian]

I have got an idea for what the spell Xykon used was. To all that asked why Xykon didn't make sure Serini was dead and didn't Soul Bind her, I'm pretty sure it is because the spell he used was Blackfire from Complete Arcane.

Not familiar with it but it makes sense; in case anyone had the same idea, it's an 8th level spell, and there is indeed an "Unknown" slot at 8th level in O'Chul's list (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html) of Xykon's spells.

[Sebastian]

Exactly, she's epic-level, presumed to associate with other epic-level adventurers, and could be expected to be carrying any variety of items that might help. I feel that in a world with so many instant fixes for deadly attacks, while only a thorough person might bother to prevent ressurrection, it should be standard to make sure your opponent either has X-eyes of a pile of ash for a face

I don't think Xykon would have necessarily thought to soul-bind Lirian if not for sheer spite, but I think it made sense for him to take it as practice for all the Scribblers her killed afterwards—and this is obviously after killing Lirian, so I'm surprised he didn't.

I doubt Xykon consider non-caster classes a threat. A epic level wizard (or druid) ghost is scary even for a epic lich, hence the necessity to entrap them but a epic rogue ghost? what she is gonna do? sneak attack him? with a negative energy attack?

[KorvinStarmast]

Not familiar with it but it makes sense; in case anyone had the same idea, it's an 8th level spell, and there is indeed an "Unknown" slot at 8th level in O'Chul's list (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html) of Xykon's spells. *golf clap* Nice catch on that also.

I have decided to coin a neologism that describes Serini's unique blend of troll and halfling.
Trolfling.
It kind of grows on ya ...

[Sapphire Guard]

On looting: Serini could have plenty of magic items that would be valuable to a troll village, but of no value to Xykon, like, say, immunity to fire, which Xykon already has a magic item for (he's immune to Meteor Swarm)

Re the fight, we can probably assume what which could have explanations e see is a snippet of a longer engagement, which could explain why she survived. He could have thrown her to the trolls, and so on.

[Sebastian]

I have got an idea for what the spell Xykon used was. To all that asked why Xykon didn't make sure Serini was dead and didn't Soul Bind her, I'm pretty sure it is because the spell he used was Blackfire from Complete Arcane. Not only does it fit the visual (it's litterally black fire on the panel), it is a medium range Necromancy spell that slowly turns one's body into black ash (loses Constitution each round until death). So the effect is right, seeing as Serini wasn't all burnt when she was hit by the spell, but had limbs burnt later. And even more, when someone is killed by this spell, they are nigh-impossible to resurrect (True res or Wish only AND a CL check), which nobody in the Scribblers, and probably the world could accomplish at the time, if I'm not mistaken. So there was little reason to double check, since the chances someone with low Fortitude succeeds three checks in a row are close to zero, and little reason to take further action, since nobody alive could resurrect her anyway.

And it would explain because she would need something elaborate like blood troll infusion to survive, rather than just a healing potion, or taking a nap.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Since people have been getting philosophical, does anyone know where to find Rich's article about the two evil overlords who knew each other since childhood and were friends in spite of it making no sense?

It seems relevant.

The game design stuff got stripped out during the site rebuild last year. Most of them had gone months without a click as I understand it, so they were cleaned out.

[KorvinStarmast]

The game design stuff got stripped out during the site rebuild last year. Most of them had gone months without a click as I understand it, so they were cleaned out.
The Making Tough Decisions post (https://web.archive.org/web/20181101075646/https://www.giantitp.com/articles/tll307KmEm4H9k6efFP.html)is on the Wayback machine

[JonahFalcon]

So, Serini is half-troll physically and a full troll personality. :amused:

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Panel 4 is just a phenomenal thing to look at. That's all I'm here to add.

[Jasdoif]

The game design stuff got stripped out during the site rebuild last year. Most of them had gone months without a click as I understand it, so they were cleaned out.Last I heard, they'll "eventually" be posted in the forum.

[Snails]

For all the people saying Serini has gone evil, from her perspective the Paladins are breaking the rules about keeping the defense of gates isolated.
Yes, if she has one of those devices regarding the status of the other gates then she knows this is the last one, but it's the Paladins breaking the rules first.

Well, I see zero evidence of evil on Serini's part. She is merely being Not Nice, for reasons that she is not sharing and we do not understand. She is not actually causing any real harm to these tough blokes.

Good =/= Nice
Evil =/= Not Nice.

I would say this seems to be a bit of change in personality from the tidbits of Soon's memories that were communicated via Shojo. But after several decades people are allowed to change, aren't they? Nor doe we know whether those tidbits were exactly full and complete. Serini is basically bragging about how she constantly lied to Soon, and was very skilled at it.

However, you are very wrong about the Paladins breaking the rules. They kept to their word-- we, the Readers, have abundant reason to believe that. The timing of the destruction of Soon's Gate is strong circumstantial evidence of such to Serini.

[Snails]

My money's on us learning even more about what happened to the Scribblers. Maybe not right now, but at some point before the finale.

Surely, yes.

I imagine we will get some kind of arc completion about the Stickers not being as overtly puissant as the mighty Scribblers of old, yet they are more worthy guardians of the Gates because they pulled together, rather than pulled apart. Something like that.

Giving us the Scribbler dirty laundry after Xykon is defeated would add so very little, regardless of the content.


And here is a reminder that I have been calling for the reappearance of the living Kraagor for years and years now. But that will probably not happen until after Xykon is defeated, yet the fate the Stickyverse is still in doubt.

[Clistenes]

Only O-Chul could be that concerned about politeness while chained to a wall! I do love that a little of the old Serini seems to show at the end... and that it strains even O-Chul's patience.

I find it a bit annoying how everybody in the OotSverse seems to treat Paladins with contempt... I mean, some are *******s, but they are also the "With great power comes great responsibility" guys who accept the duty to protect their neighbors against all kind of horrible things while other adventurers go after gold and fun...

Also, I find sad that Lirian, Dorukan, Serini and Girard probably lied to Soon Kim and they kept in contact among themselves from the beginning... we know Lirian and Dorukan were in contact, and we know Girard gave Serini the true coordinates to his gate, and he claimed that Serini wouldn't give Soon Kim the true ones (meaning she was in collusion with Girard), and we also know Girard had a bet with the other members of the group (or at least with Serini) over how long it would take Soon to break his oath... they probably were in contact all this time, while Soon Kim kept his word alone until his death...

[facw]

Also, I find sad that Lirian, Dorukan, Serini and Girard probably lied to Soon Kim and they kept in contact among themselves from the beginning... we know Lirian and Dorukan were in contact, and we know Girard gave Serini the true coordinates to his gate, and he claimed that Serini wouldn't give Soon Kim the true ones (meaning she was in collusion with Girard), and we also know Girard had a bet with the other members of the group (or at least with Serini) over how long it would take Soon to break his oath... they probably were in contact all this time, while Soon Kim kept his word alone until his death...

It's quite possible to have good natured fun teasing a paladin. I can even see it as being complimentary, since the joke rests not (or not entirely) on mocking the paladin's naivety, but on their excessive honor and seriousness, which at least the paladin would consider virtues.

In any event I think there's no reason to assume that everyone in the group hated Soon. It just seems like Sereni's deal allowed Soon and Girard to be comfortable that they wouldn't have to deal with each other. There may have been other tensions put aside by the arrangement as well. But it would be non-sensical to expect party members who weren't at odds with one another to cut of voluntary communication, just because the party as a whole no longer functioned. I don't think there would have been any need to lie to Soon about that (Though the Secret Lore of the Sapphire Guard could be lying in order to make Soon's isolation from the party seem more normal).

In any event, I do hope we get more backstory on the Scribbles, here or in a prequel book (though I'd imagine the Linear Guild and/or Vector Legion would be more promising prequel targets). Would be interesting to see more about their group dynamics, and how they fell out. We don't know much, even if they had someone who would be considered a party leader (Soon was there first, and obviously had leadership skills, but didn't seem to have much control on the Scribbles, and pretty much everyone else except Sereni seemed completely unsuitable).

[arimareiji]

The "Buy one, get one free" comment flew over my head, guessing either a pun or an alternate phrasing of "they gave me a little extra because I'm a repeat customer"? I'd be grateful if someone more clueful got it and could explain. (^_^)°


This does raise the question, why didn't Xykon loot her magic items along with her diary? We know that he is unashamed to loot, both before and after this incident. Ah well, probably a question that doesn't need to be answered for a throwaway line.
Good question. Sorry if this is dumb and I should know it from bonus material or something I forgot, but... 1) how did Xykon know he was specifically looking for her diary, and 2) why would he have a) immediately stopped looting and b) ignored the items he found before the diary? My best guess for the former is "Because he saw her writing in it while scrying in preparation for the ambush", but it doesn't explain the latter.


Wouldn't that be metallic dragons, rather than chromatic? The helper being a dragon does open up for some kind of relationship to the Draketooths - the signamancy... I mean, the color scheme, fit, at least!
Wrt speech color scheme: Imo, a copper dragon's temperament would fit perfectly with Serini. But I'm sorta attached to my first thought: "What happens if a red dragon and a gold dragon love each other very much?"


In fact, O-Chul's approach was actually more insightful in a way.

Just saying "you were friends" only looks at Serini's individual interaction with the trolls.

Saying "simply buying from them is likely more respect than they've ever received from any of us" looks at the broader picture, and acknowledges what life is like for most trolls when interacting with PC races. Recognizing an isolated friendship doesn't take much insight, but O-Chul's outlook is clearly a lot more empathetic.
Well said.


I have got an idea for what the spell Xykon used was. To all that asked why Xykon didn't make sure Serini was dead and didn't Soul Bind her, I'm pretty sure it is because the spell he used was Blackfire from Complete Arcane. Not only does it fit the visual (it's litterally black fire on the panel), it is a medium range Necromancy spell that slowly turns one's body into black ash (loses Constitution each round until death). So the effect is right, seeing as Serini wasn't all burnt when she was hit by the spell, but had limbs burnt later. And even more, when someone is killed by this spell, they are nigh-impossible to resurrect (True res or Wish only AND a CL check), which nobody in the Scribblers, and probably the world could accomplish at the time, if I'm not mistaken. So there was little reason to double check, since the chances someone with low Fortitude succeeds three checks in a row are close to zero, and little reason to take further action, since nobody alive could resurrect her anyway.

Not familiar with it but it makes sense; in case anyone had the same idea, it's an 8th level spell, and there is indeed an "Unknown" slot at 8th level in O'Chul's list (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html) of Xykon's spells.
I don't know how well it would stand up to a DM who's extremely-RAW, but I think it'd be a brilliant ruling* that troll blood would keep her alive long enough for the spell to end (with the side effects shown). Though it really would need to be moments after Xykon left, which doesn't fit well with them getting her indoors first.
* - figure of speech, please don't jump on me too much

But you know some 3rd-level rules lawyer would object, "It's called Blackfire, and trolls can't regenerate from fire." (^_~)

[Sky_Schemer]

Is it just me, or is it not a particularly well hidden Troll village, at least given the glimpse we get - seems to be rather out in the open!

It's only hidden from the other direction.

[danielxcutter]

I have got an idea for what the spell Xykon used was. To all that asked why Xykon didn't make sure Serini was dead and didn't Soul Bind her, I'm pretty sure it is because the spell he used was Blackfire from Complete Arcane. Not only does it fit the visual (it's litterally black fire on the panel), it is a medium range Necromancy spell that slowly turns one's body into black ash (loses Constitution each round until death). So the effect is right, seeing as Serini wasn't all burnt when she was hit by the spell, but had limbs burnt later. And even more, when someone is killed by this spell, they are nigh-impossible to resurrect (True res or Wish only AND a CL check), which nobody in the Scribblers, and probably the world could accomplish at the time, if I'm not mistaken. So there was little reason to double check, since the chances someone with low Fortitude succeeds three checks in a row are close to zero, and little reason to take further action, since nobody alive could resurrect her anyway.

There are some minor nitpicks; Blackfire is a ray spell and Dorukan should have been capable of reviving her(if he made the CL check of course, but it shouldn’t have been impossible at his level either).

But yeah, it works better than most examples.

[BruceGee]

I think it's safe to say all dragon relatives of Draketooths are dead because of the Familicide.

I don't know why this is safe to say. We know from the pyramid that Familicide leaves bodies behind, and Resurrections seem rather common in this world for people with wealthy friends...

[Darc_Vader]

The "Buy one, get one free" comment flew over my head, guessing either a pun or an alternate phrasing of "they gave me a little extra because I'm a repeat customer"? I'd be grateful if someone more clueful got it and could explain. (^_^)°

I assume it was basically just because she was already there to buy some troll blood. The trolls literally upgraded her purchase to a buy one get one free when they saved her.

[Ploppy]

Re: Why didn't Xykon bother to soul trap Serini...

In SoD Xykon only seems to bother casting that spell to spite people who frustrated him, Lirian for trapping him and from his point of view costing him his life, and Dorukan after that long siege and giving him a Wizard > Sorceror lecture.

[hamishspence]

So, Serini is half-troll physically and a full troll personality. :amused:

That, or she has the Troll Flesh graft. Still, "visually variant on the Half-Troll template" may make more sense, especially since Half-Troll comes from Fiend Folio and The Giant has already referenced Fiend Folio once before in-strip.

[Jasdoif]

Still, "visually variant on the Half-Troll template" may make more sense, especially since Half-Troll comes from Fiend Folio and The Giant has already referenced Fiend Folio once before in-strip.It'd be an easier sell if she had the claws that the template grants, though.

[danielxcutter]

Where's the Troll Flesh graft from, then? Or Troll-Blooded?

[Lex]

Regarding the looting matter: Xykon could have very well taken from her small items like rings or amulets, but if Serenity had, say, a +6 epic armor, that alone would have been worth a fortune (360000 gold coins, if I remember correctly the rules) while being too impractical for him to pick.

Now, for Serini, I really hope the next strips will give us more informations about her and the other members of the Order of the Scribble. Her personality seems different from what was shown in crayons, did she change with time (a likely possibility, given what she went through) or was Soon who never managed to grasp her real character?

[CountDVB]

I find it a bit annoying how everybody in the OotSverse seems to treat Paladins with contempt... I mean, some are *******s, but they are also the "With great power comes great responsibility" guys who accept the duty to protect their neighbors against all kind of horrible things while other adventurers go after gold and fun...

Also, I find sad that Lirian, Dorukan, Serini and Girard probably lied to Soon Kim and they kept in contact among themselves from the beginning... we know Lirian and Dorukan were in contact, and we know Girard gave Serini the true coordinates to his gate, and he claimed that Serini wouldn't give Soon Kim the true ones (meaning she was in collusion with Girard), and we also know Girard had a bet with the other members of the group (or at least with Serini) over how long it would take Soon to break his oath... they probably were in contact all this time, while Soon Kim kept his word alone until his death...

Granted, mainly those who do are quite pragmatic or those who would view paladins as busy-bodies.

I get the feeling Lirian was the only one on good relations with Soon Kim though I suspect perhaps Kraagor was all right with him (if mainly because they were both tanks and he'd respect that about Soon being on the front with him).

Girard I got the feeling that he's a hypocrite. While he disdained Soon Kim for his stance, seeing how he put himself as a member of a clan and revered, one gets the feeling he was salty that he wasn't the one in charge. More than a few characters who are of the "don't tell me what to do" mentality also lean into "my way or highway" think whenever they get into power.

Dorukan was the new one so he knew Soon the least and I suspect he was just not happy with Soon's aloofness and Soon's attempt at distancing himself was I suspect part of an unhealthy coping mechanism to keep people at arm's length due to not grieving Mijung properly (then again, given how she's likely not even present in the afterlife there, it's likely even more hurtful).

This leaves Serini. Though time will tell how much she does know and how much she doesn't know over the specificities of the Gates falling.

[arimareiji]

I assume it was basically just because she was already there to buy some troll blood. The trolls literally upgraded her purchase to a buy one get one free when they saved her.
Thank you. (^_^) It's nice to know other people also see it at face value, I was half-convinced I missed another level of meaning.


Granted, mainly those who do are quite pragmatic or those who would view paladins as busy-bodies.

I get the feeling Lirian was the only one on good relations with Soon Kim though I suspect perhaps Kraagor was all right with him (if mainly because they were both tanks and he'd respect that about Soon being on the front with him).

Girard I got the feeling that he's a hypocrite. While he disdained Soon Kim for his stance, seeing how he put himself as a member of a clan and revered, one gets the feeling he was salty that he wasn't the one in charge. More than a few characters who are of the "don't tell me what to do" mentality also lean into "my way or highway" think whenever they get into power.

Dorukan was the new one so he knew Soon the least and I suspect he was just not happy with Soon's aloofness and Soon's attempt at distancing himself was I suspect part of an unhealthy coping mechanism to keep people at arm's length due to not grieving Mijung properly (then again, given how she's likely not even present in the afterlife there, it's likely even more hurtful).

This leaves Serini. Though time will tell how much she does know and how much she doesn't know over the specificities of the Gates falling.

Wrt the first part: For anyone who read Dragonlance... part of the problem may be that they were overdue for a comeuppance a la the Kingpriest immediately before the Cat Collision*. In coming years, more examples like Sturm Brightblade will bring people's opinions back up. (Or in the OotS-verse, O-Chuls.)
* - Sorry, that was one of my favorite puns for years. And one of my very first LMAOs.
Wrt the second part: Wow. ( ; _ ; )

I hadn't processed that. That really puts a twist on why he seems more sad and solemn than anything, when he finally earns his release to paradise. (Though Miko's self-inflicted fate can't have helped.) It somewhat reminds me of What Dreams May Come.

I wonder how Serini will take the news, if O-Chul tells her about the last moments of Soon's gate. And I wonder if the Giant has been shuttling their threads toward each other in his tapestry for such a moment.

[PattThe]

I kindof wonder if Serini might be evil.
Hitting defenceless prisoners and providing them with false hope of freedom doesn't exactly scream 'good' at any rate.

Well if she's Neutral Good, then she has every right to take advantage of her position to bully other "distracted" or "misaligned" versions of good, such as the blindness of LG paladins. Nothing wrong with Good bullying their family members on the alignment chart.

[skim172]

I wouldn't say Serini is evil. If anything, this latest anecdote just confirms her characterization as "Serini the Peacemaker". But I wonder if she's become jaded about working with others ever since the Scribblers tore themselves apart. Remember, they didn't just break up because they had some backstage disagreements or because they wanted to go solo. They were literally willing to kill each other. Perhaps Serini, though still a friend to all, is not so willing to let others into her confidence when something important is at stake.

Perhaps Serini was even discovered because one of the other Scribblers unwittingly betrayed her. Perhaps she had stayed in touch with Lirian somehow - like a personal scrying marker to let Lirian know her location - so when Lirian was defeated, Xykon had a direct means to find and nearly kill Serini. If so, that might further validate her thinking that she can't trust anyone - not when it comes to these matters.

I suppose there's still orange voice around somewhere. Maybe that's her only companion.

[ebarde]

My theory is that Xykon was too amused by the idea of a half halfling, and decided to spare her cause it was worth a chuckle. I recall that he said in the past that multiple people have sworn to kill him, so honestly it's not really that unlike him to leave loose threads. When he was explaining about the diary he did seem to completely disregard Serini, and we've seen time and time again that spellcasters think very little of martials and that might extent to even epic level ones.

[Liquor Box]

Who is this 'we' that you are referring to? :smallconfused: Do you think this?

By 'we' I mean the people discussing the present comic, and I'm not sure if it's the case which is why I asked what others thought.


Scolding people for assuming selfish motives over selfless one comes off as evil to you?

Scolding for assuming selfish motives, probably not. But hitting someone for making a reasonable guess which was wrong (or at least Serini thinks so), is probably slightly evil. Telling lies and mocking people with the chance of escape only to snatch it away is also slightly evil.

Drugging, kidnapping and imprisoning people (particularly apparently good people) probably leans more heavily toward evil - drugging kidnapping and imprisoning a person might get you several years in prison even if you release them unharmed (assuming drugging them again with amnesia is unharmed), which Serini hasn't done yet. You might assume there will be some good reason for this kidnap which becomes apparent later which will mitigate the evil of the drugging and kidnapping, and you might be right. But even if so, you might expect a good character in the situation of being forced to kidnap someone to show some remorse for having done so instead of the mocking and hitting.

Not conclusive though, which is why I used the words "coming across".


Ah, yes the evil race who save people form death (at the hands of a human, I might add) necause they're fond of them. How villainous.

Save people from death? The answer to Serini's question was not "Because you are a person and it was the right thing to do". That the question needed to be asked in the first place (and that the paladin's answer was based on their self interest) suggests that people in the OotS world (rightly or wrongly) see trolls as the sort of race who would need a reason to save someone's life. The strip suggested the trolls would only have saved their friends.

Whether saving friends only, and not others is evil probably depends on the sacrifice necessary for the save, but it did seem to only be a drop of blood....

So even if Rich prefers to not be bound by the trolls "usually chaotic evil" tag specified in the rules, the comic does read as if the trolls are seen as usually evil, and probably are. YMMV though I guess.


We've seen multiple times that "Good" and "Evil" are more an affair of culture and education than race in this comic (the teen goblins, Oona seems pretty neutral, the MitD is clearly good...). And Serini takes the time and effort to capture paladins and erase their memories instead of killing them even though, to her, they have broken the last oath of their party. I'm pretty sure she's not evil, and if she was it would not be because of some blood, but only because she is desperate and bitter to not be able to live in a society anymore.
As I say above, I don't think capturing and drugging is a good act, although it may have been less evil than alternatives available to her.

But you are right about evil not being treated as inherent in the race, I have no answer to that. I guess you are right, that she didn't have an alignment shift as a result of the troll blood.


So, Serini is half-troll physically and a full troll personality. :amused:

Pretty much. I would be pretty pissed off in the Paladin's position about the way I was being treated even if it turns out that Serini had no choice but to kidnap them.

[hroþila]

I think Serini only looks Evil if you really try to spin absolutely everything in as negative a light as possible.

It's not like she hit Lien with all her might, she bonked her forehead as if she was a child who got an answer wrong in school. It's hardly the same.
It's not like she drugged them for a giggle, either. That was necessary to capture them safely, and that's justified by her being the guardian of a crucially important artifact on which existence itself hinges. She already said she intends to let them go once she's made sure they can't interfere. Refusing their help might be a bad idea, but it's not an Evil idea. Similarly, an act not being Good per se (i.e. capturing people) does not mean it's an Evil act.
The word "kidnap" has certain particularly bad connotations, but also a denotation you can't ignore. She didn't kidnap them. She's not expecting ransom. She merely captured them.
And if you think associating with trolls instead of killing them on sight makes Serini more likely to be Evil, I think you're in disagreement with the thrust of the narrative.

[ebarde]

Hitting people for getting stuff wrong is pretty standard slapstick shenanigan, I mean Yoda did it and he isn't ev...actually bad example nvm lol I do think that to some extent it's need to be considered that OOTS functions in a different moral and logical framework than ours, I mean good characters have done some pretty shady stuff in this comic that were played off as a gag. Serini hit her not cause she's evil, but because she's playing the part of the comedic trickster mentor all so common in fantasy.

[Riftwolf]

What if the unexpected ally is the Dragon Troll that Tenrin killed? D:

[Liquor Box]

I think Serini only looks Evil if you really try to spin absolutely everything in as negative a light as possible.

It's not like she hit Lien with all her might, she bonked her forehead as if she was a child who got an answer wrong in school. It's hardly the same.
It's not like she drugged them for a giggle, either. That was necessary to capture them safely, and that's justified by her being the guardian of a crucially important artifact on which existence itself hinges. She already said she intends to let them go once she's made sure they can't interfere. Refusing their help might be a bad idea, but it's not an Evil idea. Similarly, an act not being Good per se (i.e. capturing people) does not mean it's an Evil act.
The word "kidnap" has certain particularly bad connotations, but also a denotation you can't ignore. She didn't kidnap them. She's not expecting ransom. She merely captured them.
And if you think associating with trolls instead of killing them on sight makes Serini more likely to be Evil, I think you're in disagreement with the thrust of the narrative.

Is it possible that you may be coming from the starting assumption that Serini is not evil, and then concluding that it's a stretch to say there is evidence to displace that presumption? Because we have three or four strips of information on her - so there's not much true evidence either way. So I agree there is insufficient in those few strips to firmly conclude she is evil, but more than enough to suggest it.

Let's assume it was truly necessary for her to capture them. That crazy paladin at the beginning did the same, for similar reasons (she thought they were a threat to gate she was sworn to guard), and I think it has since been acknowledged that that was not a good act (although not sufficient to make her fall all by itself). And to be clear, she did kidnap them - the word doesn't require a ransom, it only requires you to take someone against their will. If you saw people lurking outside your home, thought they might be a threat to your home, drugged them, kidnapped (or captured if you prefer) them, imprisoned them for a time, and then released them, that's criminal in most jursidictions.

The main thing for me about the kidnapping though, is that if she reluctantly drugged and kidnapped them because she had no alternative way to defend her gate, one might expect her to some remorse that her sense of duty required her to harm innocents (if you doubt that being drugged and kidnapped is itself harm, would you subject yourself to it?). Instead she mocks them by falsely promising freedom.

I didn't say it was evil to refuse their help. But it potentially is evil to drug them again (as seems to be her intent) without first investigating whether they are actually a threat - something she can now safely do as she has them tied up.

You seem to be implying that I was exaggerating the hit (or "spinning absolutely everything"). No, if I was doing that I would have also mentioned that she hit her with a weapon. I described the hit neutrally. If you want more detail, then she struck her with a stick hard enough to cause pain, but not as hard as she could. How would you like it if someone did that to you if you failed their guessing game? A small thing, but as I note above, in doesn't paint the kidnapping in a very sympathetic light.

No, i don't (and never did) think associating with trolls makes serini evil. I think her action make her appear evil, and I wondered whether the troll blood contributed to some change in her psyche. Kujaku has persuasively pointed out that that's probably not the case, and I accept that.

[ebarde]

Comparing her with Miko seems a bit unfair, as the circunstances of both their actions are extremely different. Her reasons were definetly not the same for one, and I'd much rather get the MIB treatment and just be sent on my way after losing my memory than get dragged extra-judicially as a prisioner cause some knight templar type decided to interpet her liege's wishes in the most liberal way possible. Miko also was fully ready to kill the order when she first meet them, while Serini never had any intention of taking their lives and was acting in defense of her gate rather than a long winded crusade spurred by just ignoring reason.

[dancrilis]

I think Serini only looks Evil if you really try to spin absolutely everything in as negative a light as possible.


I don't think anyone is trying to say 'she is definitely evil' but The Giant has had her take a few actions that are questionable (but easily overlooked) and a few non-actions which are also questionable and could be setting the stage for a reveal that she is Evil - more likely not in my opinion but it could be what he is setting up, a few minorish easily overlooked items before the reveal of her terrible plans kindof thing.

Seperately on why Xykon sparred her? He might have attacked her because she was there and he was bored and had no idea who she was and stole her diary just to mock her and get a potential chuckle at some light reading - only to find out it was relevant to him at a later time when he got bored and cracked it open and saw references to Lirian.

[Metastachydium]

Let's assume it was truly necessary for her to capture them. That crazy paladin at the beginning did the same, for similar reasons (she thought they were a threat to gate she was sworn to guard), and I think it has since been acknowledged that that was not a good act (although not sufficient to make her fall all by itself). And to be clear, she did kidnap them - the word doesn't require a ransom, it only requires you to take someone against their will. If you saw people lurking outside your home, thought they might be a threat to your home, drugged them, kidnapped (or captured if you prefer) them, imprisoned them for a time, and then released them, that's criminal in most jursidictions.


Serini has reason to consider the Tomb her own jurisdiction, though, which enables her to treat lurking around it armed and with the explicit intent of locating the Gate a crime and dealing with the armed group as apprehending criminals. Also, if law enforcement officers were to use tranquilizer darts to temporarily neutralize armed and potentially dangerous individuals they intend to arrest, that would not be Evil and definitely not more Evil than using more violent methods and harming or risking to harm the subjects. Not to mention that she intends to release them once she ensures they cease to be a threat to the Gate and her amnesia potion explicitly does not make them lose all their memories, their personality &c.

[gerryq]

...I was just saying I found it disturbing. I'm not measuring it against other stuff in the comic. I think that's just because of the... visible flesh.


I have to say that while I tend to avoid excessively gory stuff on TV etc. (e.g. watched Dredd the other night and while it wasn't disturbing as such, I'd have preferred a little less), the gore level on Serini's wounds simply didn't register with me as disturbing in any way...

[KorvinStarmast]

I find it a bit annoying how everybody in the OotSverse seems to treat Paladins with contempt...
Rich apparently has an issue with Paladins (or perhaps how they are sometimes played), as do a striking number of contributors to this forum. But if it's the "OoTSverse" signals you find annoying, that's his voice speaking. On the bright side, and I am very glad he has done this narratively, he decided to model what he thinks a good paladins looks like and thereby offers us Lien, Hinjo, and O-Chul as examples of "Paladin can be done correctly". And he's done it well.

Miko's the extreme case of "if you are going to paladin, please don't do this"

That the rest of the Scribblers were likely selfish adventurers may also reflect Rich's experience with playing D&D over the years - hard to say.

Wrt speech color scheme: Imo, a copper dragon's temperament would fit perfectly with Serini. But I'm sorta attached to my first thought: "What happens if a red dragon and a gold dragon love each other very much?" I'll surmise that The Pointer Sisters have the answer to this:
When we kiss, fire! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H08x9nddyXs)

It'd be an easier sell if she had the claws that the template grants, though. Wait, have you seen her toe nails? :smalleek: No close up yet, so perhaps ...

...but if Serenity had, say, a +6 epic armor, that alone would have been worth a fortune (360000 gold coins, if I remember correctly the rules) while being too impractical for him to pick. Good example.
I get the feeling Lirian was the only one on good relations with Soon Kim though I suspect perhaps Kraagor was all right with him (if mainly because they were both tanks and he'd respect that about Soon being on the front with him). Seems to fit what little we know. The picture of angry Scribblers is Soon(Martial/Paladin), Girard (Caster) and Dorukan (Caster) - not sure if that was a deliberate gesture to the martial/caster split in 3.5, Tier wise.

Girard I got the feeling that he's a hypocrite. I get the impression that Girard was a bit of an arrogant, albeit charismatic, jerk. Hypocrite proably fits into that box.

I wonder how Serini will take the news, if O-Chul tells her about the last moments of Soon's gate. And I wonder if the Giant has been shuttling their threads toward each other in his tapestry for such a moment. Hopefully we'll find out.

and we've seen time and time again that spellcasters think very little of martials and that might extent to even epic level ones. Eugene being the finest example of that sentiment.
Scolding for assuming selfish motives, probably not. But hitting someone for making a reasonable guess which was wrong (or at least Serini thinks so), is probably slightly evil. Not hardly. It's slapstick. I refer you to the Three Stooges and The Marx Brothers, as well as Bob Sagat (referred to in-comic by Belkar).
I have a very hard time with the far-too-common propensity to pigeon hole something as "evil" on the slightest pretext in this discussion forum. Perhaps it's an artifact of the 3.5e origin of the strip.

What if the unexpected ally is the Dragon Troll that Tenrin killed? D: That would be really neat, and IIRC that troll is from up north ... given that it dwelt not far from Firmanent.

[elros]

I think Xykon didn't finish off Serini because he has no attention span. He got the diary and said his one-liner, so no reason for him hang around and get bored.
I also love how the Giant shows the lawful-chaotic dynamic. I don't think Serini is evil, but she definitely likes messing around with paladins and bending the rules. And O-Chul is just as noble as ever, which puts him in contrast to most other paladins.
The way the Giant displays the nuances of alignment is one of my favorite things about OOTS. "This strip (especially "it's the struggle that matters") (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html)" is probably the best advice I could give a player about how to handle alignment with their character.

[Shining Wrath]

I'm going to propose that Serini may fall into the trope of "does evil stuff with the best intentions". She intends to defend her Gate, and the end justifies the means.
What that implies for her alignment is an interesting D&D discussion. Are you judged (by deities with knowledge of your thoughts and soul) by your actions, or by your intentions?
And we saw at the end (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html)that Miko, perhaps, gained a measure of redemption. She was going to be with Windstriker, after all, per word of Soon. She was so very wrong about so many things, and fell quite hard, but in the end: I don't think the Paladins would usher her to the Lower Planes. Neutral planes, maybe.

[EmperorSarda]

But hitting someone for making a reasonable guess which was wrong (or at least Serini thinks so), is probably slightly evil.

When Rafiki hits Simba with his stick, is that an evil act?

[Dion]

When Rafiki hits Simba with his stick, is that an evil act?

Why why why why are these discussions always about women?

Miko, Hilgya, Bandana, Oona, and now... Serini.

I swear, if we find out that MitD identifies as female in the same panel she eats Xykon, the argument about whether she’s good or evil is going to spin so hard we risk collapsing the universe into a singularity.

[danielxcutter]

I think Oona could be Evil, though nowhere near some of the other villains like Xykon or Tarquin(or even Tsukiko, really), but my guess is that the Serini discussion is less about her being a woman and more about her being partly monstrous now and being friends with monsters.

And remember, people have repeatedly tried to argue that monstrous beings in D&D must be inherently Evil despite Rich flat-out saying that it's not the case in OotS to their face.

[Great Dane]

Gotta love Serini trolling the paladins :smallbiggrin:

[Cazero]

And remember, people have repeatedly tried to argue that monstrous beings in D&D must be inherently Evil despite Rich flat-out saying that it's not the case in OotS to their face.
Frankly, the page reads like Serini bonking Lien for thinking that.

[snowblizz]

I think Xykon didn't finish off Serini because he has no attention span. He got the diary and said his one-liner, so no reason for him hang around and get bored.

Clearly it shows how Xykon is in fact Chaotic Good and just plain misunderstood for the last 1200 or so comics.

[elros]

Gotta love Serini trolling the paladins :smallbiggrin:
Best. Line. Ever.
https://ibb.co/wskLRGp

[KorvinStarmast]

Gotta love Serini trolling the paladins :smallbiggrin: She's a rogue, how could she resist the temptation? :smallcool: (Full disclosure; before the WoTC era, I played an inordinate number of thieves and rogues, and no few of them were halflings).
Clearly it shows how Xykon is in fact Chaotic Good and just plain misunderstood for the last 1200 or so comics. Chaotic I'll get behind ... :smallcool:

Frankly, the page reads like Serini bonking Lien for thinking that. I am so glad that, considering the quarterstaff in Serini's hand, you did not add an extraneous "i" to that word ... :smalleek:

[Cazero]

I am so glad that, considering the quarterstaff in Serini's hand, you did not add an extraneous "i" to that word ... :smalleek:
That woud send a mixed message. You don't want to do that when training your attack dogs paladins not to racist.

[The MunchKING]

Why why why why are these discussions always about women?

Miko, Hilgya, Bandana, Oona, and now... Serini.

I swear, if we find out that MitD identifies as female in the same panel she eats Xykon, the argument about whether she’s good or evil is going to spin so hard we risk collapsing the universe into a singularity.

Considering he bans females from his club, that would cut attendance dramatically. :smallwink:

[Metastachydium]

Why why why why are these discussions always about women?

Miko, Hilgya, Bandana, Oona, and now... Serini.

I swear, if we find out that MitD identifies as female in the same panel she eats Xykon, the argument about whether she’s good or evil is going to spin so hard we risk collapsing the universe into a singularity.

Hilgya is not believed to be Evil by many because she's a woman. She is believed to be Evil because of things like trying to kill his somewhat dim-witted but loving husband, only refraining from murdering her entire family because the smoke would have been bad for her child, killing Durkon and being the very enthusiastic cleric of an Evil deity.
Oona is not believed to be Evil by many because she's a woman. She is believed to be Evil because of having all kinds of fun working with two very obviously Evil dudes and her first reaction to spotting two random humans miles away from her village was basically "Cool! I'll murder them both and feed them to a monster!"
Miko was never truly Evil for a moment, but I can see why people wanted to view her as such – not for being a woman, mind you, but for being essentially unlikable.
I'm also yet to see people arguing that Xykon, Redcloak, Nale, the Directors, Bozzok, Qarr or Kubota are Good or Neutral in droves just because they are male. Heck, Jirix is often theorized to be a lot more bad than he probably actually is.

[RickDaily12]

I'm not saying it's uncharacteristic of Xykon, but it does seem incredibly careless to pull a scry-and-die on an epic level adventurer whose entire life mission is to thwart your goals of capturing a gate, and not even make sure you've killed her.

I'll go one step farther. It doesn't make sense at all that Serini was left for dead by Xykon, and I think more likely, she found a way to escape, as per Start of Darkness spoilers:

We now know that Xykon's attack of Serini happened after Lirian's Gate fell. When he attacked her, he was a Lich, and Xykon became a Lich in order to survive his and Redcloak's first failed attempt at taking Lirian's Gate.

Once Lirian died, Xykon trapped her soul in the Gem.

He did this again with Dorukan, which implies he sought out a very expensive gem in order to keep soul trapping certain epic characters he considered actually threatening, like each of the Scribble members.

We also know that the attack on Serini happened after Lirian's death, but before Dorukan's, as after Xykon won that battle, they entrenched themselves at Redmountain Hills, in Dorukan's dungeon, at which point, the events of the comic begin. That means that when Xykon attacked Serini, only Lirian was in his pocket, so her soul should have been able to fit inside the gem if she were of a similar level to Dorukan.

Xykon must know that Serini, being an epic level rogue, and in the same party as both Lirian and Dorukan, that she has ways of being as threatening as them, if not directly herself, then certainly indirectly- an epic level rogue is still going to have resources, magic items, and allies as ways of dealing with a lich. She also probably has ways of at least warning her former party members that a threat is going after each of them, as far as he knows.

So I find it rather unlikely that Xykon did not try to ensure she was dead, and then attempt to Soul Bind her, just like he did with Lirian, unless well, he's an idiot. If you're going to start trapping the souls of Scribble party members, why would you not trap the soul of every party member you kill, if you're afraid of resurrection spells?

We also already know that Serini doesn't seem to trust the Paladins enough that she's openly telling them that she's happy to lie to them, so it's probable that there's more to this story than she's willing to tell.

Based on Xykon's perspective though, I definitely think the evidence points more to her escaping from him somehow.


I kindof wonder if Serini might be evil.
Hitting defenceless prisoners and providing them with false hope of freedom doesn't exactly scream 'good' at any rate.

Eh, I'm going to argue Chaotic Neutral at most. In regards to the hit:


The arc of the swing was rather short.
There's no battle damage on Lien in the last panel.

So, it seems like a more playful gesture than anything.
That, and if she were Evil, why not just kill the paladins, then? Paladins and Evil characters don't really mix well when it comes to mutual goals, by design. Unless she's lying outright about her amnesia potion, she has no reason to keep these two pesky paladins alive and out of her way when she can just kill them. She's still an Epic character; paladins aren't really a threat to her.

Instead, Serini's giving me a lot of Haley vibes: she doesn't trust Soon and his guard, but doesn't want them dead (unlike Girard), even with their gate destroyed. She just wants them out of the way- and isn't the type of person who wants to use violence in order to accomplish that, even though she is probably more than capable of it. She's happy to lie and not be honest with them, which does point to Chaotic, as Rogues in this comic typically are- but if she's at least being honest about what her potion does, it means she has compunctions against needlessly slaughtering paladins, which probably points to Good, or Neutral at worst.

[One Skunk Todd]

I'll go one step farther. It doesn't make sense at all that Serini was left for dead by Xykon, and I think more likely, she found a way to escape, as per Start of Darkness spoilers:

We now know that Xykon's attack of Serini happened after Lirian's Gate fell. When he attacked her, he was a Lich, and Xykon became a Lich in order to survive his and Redcloak's first failed attempt at taking Lirian's Gate.

Once Lirian died, Xykon trapped her soul in the Gem.

He did this again with Dorukan, which implies he sought out a very expensive gem in order to keep soul trapping certain epic characters he considered actually threatening, like each of the Scribble members.

We also know that the attack on Serini happened after Lirian's death, but before Dorukan's, as after Xykon won that battle, they entrenched themselves at Redmountain Hills, in Dorukan's dungeon, at which point, the events of the comic begin. That means that when Xykon attacked Serini, only Lirian was in his pocket, so her soul should have been able to fit inside the gem if she were of a similar level to Dorukan.

Xykon must know that Serini, being an epic level rogue, and in the same party as both Lirian and Dorukan, that she has ways of being as threatening as them, if not directly herself, then certainly indirectly- an epic level rogue is still going to have resources, magic items, and allies as ways of dealing with a lich. She also probably has ways of at least warning her former party members that a threat is going after each of them, as far as he knows.

So I find it rather unlikely that Xykon did not try to ensure she was dead, and then attempt to Soul Bind her, just like he did with Lirian, unless well, he's an idiot. If you're going to start trapping the souls of Scribble party members, why would you not trap the soul of every party member you kill, if you're afraid of resurrection spells?

As was mentioned above, he simply may not have thought of Serini as a credible threat since she's not a caster. Also, he may have further dismissed her since she's a halfling.

Also, is it possible he gets some advantage out of soul-binding casters, similar to the soul splice the Fiends gave to V? In which case there wouldn't be much point in binding her soul.

[danielxcutter]

As was mentioned above, he simply may not have thought of Serini as a credible threat since she's not a caster. Also, he may have further dismissed her since she's a halfling.

As a friend of mine put it, "What danger is a class whose primary feature I am immune to?"


Also, is it possible he gets some advantage out of soul-binding casters, similar to the soul splice the Fiends gave to V? In which case there wouldn't be much point in binding her soul.

Soul Bind prevents her allies from resurrecting her, and also him Soul Binding Lirian and Dorukan was more spite than anything else.

Also I do wonder if Serini will ever learn that.

[facw]

We now know that Xykon's attack of Serini happened after Lirian's Gate fell. When he attacked her, he was a Lich, and Xykon became a Lich in order to survive his and Redcloak's first failed attempt at taking Lirian's Gate.


Strictly speaking we knew this before:
Neither Xykon nor Red Cloak (or even The Dark One apparently) knew there were multiple gates until Lirian accidentally let it slip in her fight with Xykon (they knew of Lirian's gate from The Dark One, who lost a follower to it when it was an open rift). Xykon only set out to discover more information about the other gates after that.

[Mic_128]

Also I do wonder if Serini will ever learn that.

It could be something in the epilogue. They loot his corpse and find said item.

[pi4t]

I kindof wonder if Serini might be evil.
Hitting defenceless prisoners and providing them with false hope of freedom doesn't exactly scream 'good' at any rate.

Nah, she's just being a bit of a troll.

[Riftwolf]

Seeing as this thread is devolved into an alignment argument, could I throw my hat in to suggest Serini is True Cranky or Chaotic Justifiably-Embittered?

[Ionathus]

Re: Why didn't Xykon bother to soul trap Serini...

In SoD Xykon only seems to bother casting that spell to spite people who frustrated him, Lirian for trapping him and from his point of view costing him his life, and Dorukan after that long siege and giving him a Wizard > Sorceror lecture.

She didn't just cost him his life...she cost him the taste of coffee, too.


I think Serini only looks Evil if you really try to spin absolutely everything in as negative a light as possible.

You must be new here.


Is it possible that you may be coming from the starting assumption that Serini is not evil...
snip

No, I'm looking at the facts as they are presented. The Scribblers broke up on bad terms. They all agreed to go their separate ways. Whatever their own oath to themselves, the paladins have violated that agreement, and Serini is taking non-evil actions to defend the gate as she sees fit -- including the removal of several blundering paladins in clanky armor who could easily muck up her plans.


Serini is not evil for refusing help from people she deems unqualified. Roy did the same thing to the CPPD.
Serini is not evil for refusing to listen to their full arguments: life doesn't work like a courtroom, and you don't have the inalienable right to plead your entire case. Roy tells people to shut up all the time.
Serini is not evil for capturing people on "her territory" with a harmless sleeping poison, wiping their memories, and releasing them uninjured. Shojo's behavior to maintain secrecy was far more objectionable.
Serini is not evil for lying to paladins. Roy, Shojo, Haley, Elan...the list goes on.
Serini is not evil for bonking someone on the head.


If you want to posit that she is non-Good based on this info, go ahead. Argue until the cows come home. I probably disagree, but I have no interest in that argument. But there is zero evidence -- yes, exactly zero -- to even suggest she is Evil.

There's a great quote from Rich about why Haley is not evil for using deception and trickery -- because what matters is why she uses those skills. To enrich herself? Or to protect others? Being Good or even Neutral does not mean following all the rules of polite social interaction...you're thinking of Lawful. Which Serini most definitely is not.


When Rafiki hits Simba with his stick, is that an evil act?

Exactly, thank you. Rude does not equal evil.

[danielxcutter]

Frankly, the page reads like Serini bonking Lien for thinking that.

I don't think Lien necessarily assumed they were Evil, though she did seem to assume it was a more selfish motivation.(Note: selfish=/=Evil. Of course Evil often is selfish.)


Hilgya is not believed to be Evil by many because she's a woman. She is believed to be Evil because of things like trying to kill his somewhat dim-witted but loving husband, only refraining from murdering her entire family because the smoke would have been bad for her child, killing Durkon and being the very enthusiastic cleric of an Evil deity.
Oona is not believed to be Evil by many because she's a woman. She is believed to be Evil because of having all kinds of fun working with two very obviously Evil dudes and her first reaction to spotting two random humans miles away from her village was basically "Cool! I'll murder them both and feed them to a monster!"
Miko was never truly Evil for a moment, but I can see why people wanted to view her as such – not for being a woman, mind you, but for being essentially unlikable.
I'm also yet to see people arguing that Xykon, Redcloak, Nale, the Directors, Bozzok, Qarr or Kubota are Good or Neutral in droves just because they are male. Heck, Jirix is often theorized to be a lot more bad than he probably actually is.

I've heard of people arguing that Tarquin must be non-Evil, but I've never actually seen that and I don't think that anything to do whatsoever with his gender. And I don't think the Serini thing does either; it's likely more about her more monstrous appearance and being friendly with monstrous beings.

(Also fallen heroes and turning ugly when becoming evil are hardly uncommon tropes either, so that didn't probably help much.)


I'll go one step farther. It doesn't make sense at all that Serini was left for dead by Xykon, and I think more likely, she found a way to escape, as per Start of Darkness spoilers:

We now know that Xykon's attack of Serini happened after Lirian's Gate fell. When he attacked her, he was a Lich, and Xykon became a Lich in order to survive his and Redcloak's first failed attempt at taking Lirian's Gate.

Once Lirian died, Xykon trapped her soul in the Gem.

He did this again with Dorukan, which implies he sought out a very expensive gem in order to keep soul trapping certain epic characters he considered actually threatening, like each of the Scribble members.

We also know that the attack on Serini happened after Lirian's death, but before Dorukan's, as after Xykon won that battle, they entrenched themselves at Redmountain Hills, in Dorukan's dungeon, at which point, the events of the comic begin. That means that when Xykon attacked Serini, only Lirian was in his pocket, so her soul should have been able to fit inside the gem if she were of a similar level to Dorukan.

Xykon must know that Serini, being an epic level rogue, and in the same party as both Lirian and Dorukan, that she has ways of being as threatening as them, if not directly herself, then certainly indirectly- an epic level rogue is still going to have resources, magic items, and allies as ways of dealing with a lich. She also probably has ways of at least warning her former party members that a threat is going after each of them, as far as he knows.

So I find it rather unlikely that Xykon did not try to ensure she was dead, and then attempt to Soul Bind her, just like he did with Lirian, unless well, he's an idiot. If you're going to start trapping the souls of Scribble party members, why would you not trap the soul of every party member you kill, if you're afraid of resurrection spells?

We also already know that Serini doesn't seem to trust the Paladins enough that she's openly telling them that she's happy to lie to them, so it's probable that there's more to this story than she's willing to tell.

Based on Xykon's perspective though, I definitely think the evidence points more to her escaping from him somehow.

As I have said already in this thread, him binding Lirian and Dorukan was mostly out of spite, rather than practicality. Plus, he's immune to Serini's primary class feature, and he may not have known at all about the other Scribblers before getting her diary.


That, and if she were Evil, why not just kill the paladins, then? Paladins and Evil characters don't really mix well when it comes to mutual goals, by design. Unless she's lying outright about her amnesia potion, she has no reason to keep these two pesky paladins alive and out of her way when she can just kill them. She's still an Epic character; paladins aren't really a threat to her.

Instead, Serini's giving me a lot of Haley vibes: she doesn't trust Soon and his guard, but doesn't want them dead (unlike Girard), even with their gate destroyed. She just wants them out of the way- and isn't the type of person who wants to use violence in order to accomplish that, even though she is probably more than capable of it. She's happy to lie and not be honest with them, which does point to Chaotic, as Rogues in this comic typically are- but if she's at least being honest about what her potion does, it means she has compunctions against needlessly slaughtering paladins, which probably points to Good, or Neutral at worst.

There could hypothetically be reasons why an Evil person wouldn't necessarily want or need the paladins dead ASAP, but yeah I think your analysis is good enough.

[Snails]

I get the feeling Lirian was the only one on good relations with Soon Kim though I suspect perhaps Kraagor was all right with him (if mainly because they were both tanks and he'd respect that about Soon being on the front with him).

My head canon is it is Kraagor who would have been the most effectiveness spokesperson on behalf of Soon about his own death, but, alas, he was not available. A dwarf barbarian would likely seen anyone willing to stand shoulder to shoulder with him against great danger to be worthy of all benefit of the doubt.

The fact that a Paladin could more easily jump clear of the Rift Sealing spell than a Barbarian (due to differences in saving throws) would be but a minor detail in Kraagor's eyes, because men of action do not quibble over what Fate holds in store for the courageous. Of course, to the surviving comrades who witnessed the full tragedy unfold right before their eyes, they might tell themselves that Soon could easily foresee the result -- that Soon himself would likely live and Kraagor would likely die, and that was an important factor in Soon's choice.

I would further add it is quite conceivable that both Soon and Kraagor had insight that the other Scribblers did not, due to the "benefit" of standing toe-to-toe with the appendage of the Snarl himself: that the Snarl was fighting harder than ever to keep this one last Rift open, and the quest might well fail if not sealed immediately. There might be a very good reason that Soon ordered the Rift to be sealed immediately, rather than trying a more cautious approach if this attempt might not be working.

[JonahFalcon]

Gotta love Serini trolling the paladins :smallbiggrin:

I made that joke, but someone wrecked it.

[Fyraltari]

Hilgya is not believed to be Evil by many because she's a woman. She is believed to be Evil because of things like trying to kill his somewhat dim-witted but loving husband, only refraining from murdering her entire family because the smoke would have been bad for her child, killing Durkon and being the very enthusiastic cleric of an Evil deity.
Oona is not believed to be Evil by many because she's a woman. She is believed to be Evil because of having all kinds of fun working with two very obviously Evil dudes and her first reaction to spotting two random humans miles away from her village was basically "Cool! I'll murder them both and feed them to a monster!"
Miko was never truly Evil for a moment, but I can see why people wanted to view her as such – not for being a woman, mind you, but for being essentially unlikable.
I'm also yet to see people arguing that Xykon, Redcloak, Nale, the Directors, Bozzok, Qarr or Kubota are Good or Neutral in droves just because they are male. Heck, Jirix is often theorized to be a lot more bad than he probably actually is.

I think you are missing the point. It's not that some posters associate women with evil and men with good it's that women tend to come into much harsher scrutiny than their male counterparts. You say that no-one is arguing that Xykon, Redcloak, Nale, the Directors, Bozzok, Qarr or Kubota are Good or Neutral but all of these people are villains while Hilgya, Serini, Andy or Miko are more allies to the heroes or neutral (on the antagonist_protagonist spectrum, not the alignment grid). A better comparison would be asking where are all the people calling Ian evil for initially wanting to kill Elan, stealing from a the rich and (only after a the death of his wife) giving 20% to the poor after expenses and wanting to charge Roy for the potion he gave him while fighting a raging madman, the people calling Eugene evil for not caring about his family, causing Eric's death suggesting mass suicide to solve the dwarves' problem, calling Julio evil for destroying the defenses of a major city without any real reason or thought to the consequences or calling the Oracle evil for his anti-mamal prejudice, worship of Tiamat and routine use of memory altering magic (hey that last one reminds me of someone). Hell, there are still a lot of people calling Loki Neutral after he made it clear that, if it weren't for his survival he would gladly help Hel enslave and taorture millions of dwarves so that she could set herself up as a dark queen in the next world and rain undeath all over the future Northern Continent.

This phenomenon of women being held to harsher standards than men isn't particular to this forum or fandom, either. It's very common to see women criticized or insulted for actions or attitudes men get a pass for or are even praised for in most fandoms, for examples Skyler White from Breaking Bad is often called the worst character of the show for the crime of not being supportive enough of her husband's drug trafficking! And that's to say nothing of how real women are treated.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Didn't take O-Chul for the type to talk about losing the closest thing the trolls had to a non-troll friend in such a detached manner. "A cost that couldn't be recouped by selling magic items" sounds like a Rand fanatic trying to justify his altruistic impulses.

[danielxcutter]

FWIW I headcanon Eugene as actually TN(and just went to Celestia for his judgement because he thought of himself as that), and I would not be shocked if Girard slipped into CE in his later years considering how he ran his pyramid scheme, so to speak, or at least enough to go to Pandemonium instead of Limbo or Ysgard.

Also I'm honestly not sure if Hilgya's still Evil or not, considering that the Giant mentioned in commentary that she was CE in the Dungeon Crawlin' Fools book and she's done some rather selfish things, but if the Giant said that she's CN now I wouldn't exactly be shocked.

[fuschiawarrior]

We've only ever seen Soon's version of the Scribblers story, from Serini's perspective we may find that she has valid reasons to not want to work with Soon and his paladins anymore. Or that the honor-bound paladins are a bad fit for her plans that as a Rogue probably relies in subterfuge. Or as someone posted in the last thread there is no such thing as an amnesia potion and she is using the threat of it to gather information from Lien and O-Chul, she is lying all the time to them after all and would be a solution to the minor conundrum of her ability to brew potions and poisons.



Also, the troll cut into their arm rather than their hand to give blood, that's a good call, scaring a hand may lead to
severe loss of dexterity.


If anyone would know of that it certainly would be Rich. Still waiting for Sir Thumb's epic ballad.

[danielxcutter]

My head canon is it is Kraagor who would have been the most effectiveness spokesperson on behalf of Soon about his own death, but, alas, he was not available. A dwarf barbarian would likely seen anyone willing to stand shoulder to shoulder with him against great danger to be worthy of all benefit of the doubt.

The fact that a Paladin could more easily jump clear of the Rift Sealing spell than a Barbarian (due to differences in saving throws) would be but a minor detail in Kraagor's eyes, because men of action do not quibble over what Fate holds in store for the courageous. Of course, to the surviving comrades who witnessed the full tragedy unfold right before their eyes, they might tell themselves that Soon could easily foresee the result -- that Soon himself would likely live and Kraagor would likely die, and that was an important factor in Soon's choice.

I would further add it is quite conceivable that both Soon and Kraagor had insight that the other Scribblers did not, due to the "benefit" of standing toe-to-toe with the appendage of the Snarl himself: that the Snarl was fighting harder than ever to keep this one last Rift open, and the quest might well fail if not sealed immediately. There might be a very good reason that Soon ordered the Rift to be sealed immediately, rather than trying a more cautious approach if this attempt might not be working.

Yeah, I saw a theory about this a while back and it makes sense. Even if the others didn't necessarily think that, Girard at least probably had a -50 Paladin penalty on his Bias check.

[Ionathus]

Didn't take O-Chul for the type to talk about losing the closest thing the trolls had to a non-troll friend in such a detached manner. "A cost that couldn't be recouped by selling magic items" sounds like a Rand fanatic trying to justify his altruistic impulses.

This is a tactic that O-Chul is demonstrated as being very good with. In How the Paladin Got His Scar, he uses the same approach with the (at the time) Supreme Leader of the Hobgoblins, to appeal to the Supreme Leader's mindset instead of his own. Although O-Chul himself is an empathetic person, he phrased it diplomatically to get the maximum chance of connecting with Serini. Jury's still out on whether it'll work, but O-Chul is at the top of my list for negotiating with anyone. Dude's a frickin' diplomatic badass. And a regular one too.

[danielxcutter]

This is a tactic that O-Chul is demonstrated as being very good with. In How the Paladin Got His Scar, he uses the same approach with the (at the time) Supreme Leader of the Hobgoblins, to appeal to the Supreme Leader's mindset instead of his own. Although O-Chul himself is an empathetic person, he phrased it diplomatically to get the maximum chance of connecting with Serini. Jury's still out on whether it'll work, but O-Chul is at the top of my list for negotiating with anyone. Dude's a frickin' diplomatic badass. And a regular one too.

If anyone convinces Serini it'll be O-Chul, mark my words.

[Fyraltari]

Didn't take O-Chul for the type to talk about losing the closest thing the trolls had to a non-troll friend in such a detached manner. "A cost that couldn't be recouped by selling magic items" sounds like a Rand fanatic trying to justify his altruistic impulses.

he's just being a bit flowery/cheeky. Lien was the one who framed the rescue in terms of gain and loss and he's building on that.

[Riftwolf]

Didn't take O-Chul for the type to talk about losing the closest thing the trolls had to a non-troll friend in such a detached manner. "A cost that couldn't be recouped by selling magic items" sounds like a Rand fanatic trying to justify his altruistic impulses.

Saying 'you were friends with the trolls' is very specific. O-Chul phrased it in a way that it could be interpreted for different values of 'friendship' (ie Serini was useful to the troll tribe for some other purpose than monetary, the Troll King named her as kin for some undisclosed task, no-one could make waffles like her, etc.)

[dancrilis]

...O-Chul is at the top of my list for negotiating with anyone.

I don't know - Durkon seemed to get further to convincing Redcloak then O-Chul ever did, he also convinced a vampire into non-existance.

[JavaScribe]

That, and if she were Evil, why not just kill the paladins, then? Paladins and Evil characters don't really mix well when it comes to mutual goals, by design. Unless she's lying outright about her amnesia potion, she has no reason to keep these two pesky paladins alive and out of her way when she can just kill them. She's still an Epic character; paladins aren't really a threat to her.
She says that she's planning to make them tell their superiors that they found nothing. If she kills them, their bosses will want to know what happened to them, so instead she's leaving them alive to mislead and misdirect, like a rogue. She probably doesn't know that the Sapphire Guard is pretty much eradicated, and she definitely doesn't know their real mission either, else she would know that reporting back that they found nothing would just make their superiors confused.

Having said that, all the evidence implies that Soon did horrible, horrible things for the Greater Good. Maybe understandable given his circumstances, but still things that would be more than enough to convince Serini that his "help" isn't worth it.

[Riftwolf]

I don't know - Durkon seemed to get further to convincing Redcloak then O-Chul ever did, he also convinced a vampire into non-existance.

The operative word being 'seemed'. He didn't realise the Bottomless Bog of Redcloaks sunk cost.

[bunsen_h]

Xykon disapeared six years ago and came back with the diary three years ago. Either this is a continuity mistake or Serini kept her brown hair longer than usual. Or maybe she went white prematurely from the trauma of the attack, weirder things have been known to happen.

Perhaps she was dyeing it, but stopped bothering after -- as she put it -- her complexion went bad.


Huh, good question. Adventurers in the OotSverse who are willing to even talk with monstrous creatures are apparently rare.

She says that she bought blood from them "a bunch of times". For someone who's not particularly strong in combat, and knows she'll need that resource many times, it makes sense to try trade instead of violence. Apart from any ethical considerations, of course.


I'll go one step farther. It doesn't make sense at all that Serini was left for dead by Xykon, and I think more likely, she found a way to escape, as per Start of Darkness spoilers:

There are a few possibilities. Perhaps he had strong reasons to leave quickly: driven off, or in a hurry for something. Or Serini's description isn't accurate.

[Metastachydium]

I think you are missing the point. It's not that some posters associate women with evil and men with good it's that women tend to come into much harsher scrutiny than their male counterparts. You say that no-one is arguing that Xykon, Redcloak, Nale, the Directors, Bozzok, Qarr or Kubota are Good or Neutral but all of these people are villains while Hilgya, Serini, Andy or Miko are more allies to the heroes or neutral (on the antagonist_protagonist spectrum, not the alignment grid). A better comparison would be asking where are all the people calling Ian evil for initially wanting to kill Elan, stealing from a the rich and (only after a the death of his wife) giving 20% to the poor after expenses and wanting to charge Roy for the potion he gave him while fighting a raging madman, the people calling Eugene evil for not caring about his family, causing Eric's death suggesting mass suicide to solve the dwarves' problem, calling Julio evil for destroying the defenses of a major city without any real reason or thought to the consequences or calling the Oracle evil for his anti-mamal prejudice, worship of Tiamat and routine use of memory altering magic (hey that last one reminds me of someone). Hell, there are still a lot of people calling Loki Neutral after he made it clear that, if it weren't for his survival he would gladly help Hel enslave and taorture millions of dwarves so that she could set herself up as a dark queen in the next world and rain undeath all over the future Northern Continent.

This phenomenon of women being held to harsher standards than men isn't particular to this forum or fandom, either. It's very common to see women criticized or insulted for actions or attitudes men get a pass for or are even praised for in most fandoms, for examples Skyler White from Breaking Bad is often called the worst character of the show for the crime of not being supportive enough of her husband's drug trafficking! And that's to say nothing of how real women are treated.

You see, that kind of bias probably exist (even here), but I don't think that is in effect here. At any rate, the examples that came up thus far are not really informative. For starters, Oona is not an ally of the Order, Miko is mostly an antagonist they work against and even their relationship with Hilgya is tense at best and it gets hostile at times. Yet, there are many people specifically arguing that Oona is not Evil, people arguing that Hilgya is not Evil and those considering Miko Evil must be in the minority too. Meanwhile, I don't think I've ever seen anyone arguing that Eugene is in fact Lawful Good, and he is universally accepted to be an awful person at best and the Oracle is likewise mostly viewed as a non-Good jerk (and I'd be very surprised to finf he's never been alleged to be Evil before – of course, we have the Word of the Giant that he is Neutral, so it's easy to see why his alignment doesn't come up more often). As for Julio, while I don't like him much, the worst thing he ever did was the stunt with the catapult, and accusing him with being Evil for that (i.e. for not foreseeing that Azure City is soon to get invaded) would be out there with the actual, very creepy arguments that Oona is not Evil because the entire North Pole is somehow her very own territory, so she can kill whoever she wants and do whatever she wants with their bodies.

[Ionathus]

I don't know - Durkon seemed to get further to convincing Redcloak then O-Chul ever did, he also convinced a vampire into non-existance.

O-Chul had a lot working against him there, though. Redcloak has specific problems with the Sapphire Guard (going back to SoD), and O-Chul was a prisoner with (supposedly) valuable information. He was just never going to convince Redcloak of anything...which is why he focused his efforts on the MitD.

Durkon, meanwhile, approached him as a religious emissary, offering to negotiate on behalf of Thor. If Durkon & O-Chul's positions were switched, and O-Chul was the cleric party member with no official membership with the Sapphire Guard, his personality and diplomatic skills could very potentially improve that negotiation.

Then again, Durkon's specific lived experience vis-a-vis feeling like a bargaining chip between gods definitely pulled some weight as well.

Edit to add:

This phenomenon of women being held to harsher standards than men isn't particular to this forum or fandom, either. It's very common to see women criticized or insulted for actions or attitudes men get a pass for or are even praised for in most fandoms, for examples Skyler White from Breaking Bad is often called the worst character of the show for the crime of not being supportive enough of her husband's drug trafficking! And that's to say nothing of how real women are treated.

100% agreed. Male characters get a pass all the time for behavior that gets scrutinized and demonized when it shows up in their female counterparts. If this was Girard who'd captured the paladins and the worst he was doing was bonking them on the head for getting a question wrong, I wouldn't be surprised at all to see a lot more "well, it's understandable that he would be upset..." Meanwhile Serini behaves rudely to paladins who vowed never to come knocking, and somehow that's evidence for a slide towards evil?

[hamishspence]

I don't think I've ever seen anyone arguing that Eugene is in fact Lawful Good,
I've seen plenty of "Eugene was LG when he died and the only thing stopping him from getting into Celestia was his Blood Oath" arguments.

Less common are "Eugene is still LG, right now" arguments, but I think it's come up once or twice.

[Dion]

Didn't take O-Chul for the type to talk about losing the closest thing the trolls had to a non-troll friend in such a detached manner.

In my mind, O’Chul was trying to be polite.

I believe that many people on OotS universe take offense at a claim that they are friends with trolls (similar to the ideas of some posters on this board that being friends with trolls is evidence of being evil).

Saying “you’re friends with trolls” is probably a grade school insult, and he wanted to avoid saying it directly.

[Metastachydium]

I've seen plenty of "Eugene was LG when he died and the only thing stopping him from getting into Celestia was his Blood Oath" arguments.

Less common are "Eugene is still LG, right now" arguments, but I think it's come up once or twice.

Holy… Why would anyone do that?

[Quartz]

Is panel 6 a shout-out to the film 28 Days Later? Specifically the drop of blood in the eye?

[facw]

Holy… Why would anyone do that?

I think part of it is that (as I understand it) in D&D, people's alignments aren't supposed to change after death, so if you believe Eugene was lawful good when he died, he should still be lawful good now. Admittedly he doesn't seem particularly good (though there's not much to say that he's evil or even neutral either), and not wholly lawful either he seems to be willing to keep his own word, but impersonating a being of pure law and good for the purpose of fixing a trial doesn't seem very lawful at all.

That said, I don't think we have an especially good measure of Eugene. What we've seen is heavily colored by his broken relationship with Roy (note that Julia and Roy's mom both seem to have a significantly different, and more charitable impressions of Eugene from Roy). The death of Roy's brother seems to have been (as you would expect) significantly traumatic to both Roy and Eugene, and warps our view of whatever Eugene was and is.

[EmperorSarda]

Why why why why are these discussions always about women?


Is it a woman thing? Or people over analyzing characters to insanity levels thing? Cause I've seen plenty of alignment discussions about males too.

Anywho, it is possible I'm wrong. I don't have much interest in discussing if there are sexist trends on these forums.

Anywho, my comment is that that I don't Serini is evil at all nor is her bonking the paladin any indication of her alignment. I'd aim for Chaotic or neutral good.



Exactly, thank you. Rude does not equal evil.

I don't see how people jump onto the "Serini is evil" train so soon. But this is the nature of the forums.

[Metastachydium]

I think part of it is that (as I understand it) in D&D, people's alignments aren't supposed to change after death, so if you believe Eugene was lawful good when he died, he should still be lawful good now. Admittedly he doesn't seem particularly good (though there's not much to say that he's evil or even neutral either), and not wholly lawful either he seems to be willing to keep his own word, but impersonating a being of pure law and good for the purpose of fixing a trial doesn't seem very lawful at all.

That said, I don't think we have an especially good measure of Eugene. What we've seen is heavily colored by his broken relationship with Roy (note that Julia and Roy's mom both seem to have a significantly different, and more charitable impressions of Eugene from Roy). The death of Roy's brother seems to have been (as you would expect) significantly traumatic to both Roy and Eugene, and warps our view of whatever Eugene was and is.

SoD basically confirms that he was an arrogant jerk and a horrible father before Eric was even born.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Is it a woman thing? Or people over analyzing characters to insanity levels thing? Cause I've seen plenty of alignment discussions about males too.
One of my least favorite things about these kinds of discussions are the {Scrubbed} who walk in on a discussion about trends, point out that those trends aren't universal, and walk out as if that's all that needs to be said.
Not all women are harshly criticized. Not all men are let off the hook. But women are more frequently criticized for behavior that is more frequently accepted in men. There's not really an explanation for this other than unconscious biases that people refuse to examine, which A. have effects on real people and B. have less effect if people examine and recognize them. Which is the point of pointing them out.


Anywho, it is possible I'm wrong. I don't have much interest in discussing if there are sexist trends on these forums.
Lower on the list is people who make arguments and then pretend they don't care about the list. Higher on the list is people who try to make critiques of broad trends into attacks on an individual or community which happens to be part of them.


Nothing personal, Emperor Sarda, your post just touches on some lines of logic that really bug me, on a topic I think is important to discuss. You're not even particularly bad about any of it, you're just a convenient springboard for me to explain my position and what I find irritating/insidious about the other side.

[KorvinStarmast]

I've heard of people arguing that Tarquin must be non-Evil, but I've never actually seen that The two hundred foot high flaming letters seems to have gotten the message across to most people.

no-one could make waffles like her, etc.) And she froze them and sold them, in bulk, to gnomes who then served them for brunch, much to the deligh of Bandana (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0981.html).

Having said that, all the evidence implies that Soon did horrible, horrible things for the Greater Good. Such as?

For someone who's not particularly strong in combat, and knows she'll need that resource many times, it makes sense to try trade instead of violence. Rogues tend to be practical.
Or Serini's description isn't accurate. What? Serini tell a fib? Pshaw, say it ain't so. :smallcool:

I've seen plenty of "Eugene was LG when he died and the only thing stopping him from getting into Celestia was his Blood Oath" arguments.
There is, somewhere, a post on these forums where Rich spells out various character alignments. IIRC, Eugene is listed as LG, but I can't find that post at the moment. That is also the place where V is listed as TN.

That said, I don't think we have an especially good measure of Eugene. What we've seen is heavily colored by his broken relationship with Roy (note that Julia and Roy's mom both seem to have a significantly different, and more charitable impressions of Eugene from Roy). The death of Roy's brother seems to have been (as you would expect) significantly traumatic to both Roy and Eugene, and warps our view of whatever Eugene was and is. Maybe; I have a few other thoughts on why Eugene is painted as he is, but I'll not digress into that since Eugene, as a topic, is a dead horse that has long since turned to glue.

SoD basically confirms that he was an arrogant jerk and a horrible father before Eric was even born. OoTS establishes, quite clearly, in the Narrative, that one can be LG and a jerk. Miko is the classic example - an LG jerk who never stops being a paladin (she stayed blue) until she fell after laying Shojo low in the throne room (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0407.html).

Try to recall the distinction between "unlikeable" and "lawful good" and "evil" etc.

Eugene is quite the unlikeable character, just as Miko was, but he too can be an LG jerk.

[bunsen_h]

FWIW I headcanon Eugene as actually TN(and just went to Celestia for his judgement because he thought of himself as that), and I would not be shocked if Girard slipped into CE in his later years considering how he ran his pyramid scheme, so to speak, or at least enough to go to Pandemonium instead of Limbo or Ysgard.

I'm just imagining... Xykon is finally destroyed; Eugene is watching from the waiting area on Celestia. There's a "DING!" Eugene: "Yeah! Finally, I'm in!"

Then the Deva says, "Okay! Time for your review, whoops, off you go. Elsewhere."

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm just imagining... Xykon is finally destroyed; Eugene is watching from the waiting area on Celestia. There's a "DING!" Eugene: "Yeah! Finally, I'm in!"

Then the Deva says, "Okay! Time for your review, whoops, off you go. Elsewhere." Didn't he have the review already, and they left him on the vestibule because of it? I guess we'll see. Given his demonstrated, on screen, level of selfishness I'd not be surprised to see a second review, like an NFL scoring play being challenged, go along the lines of
"On further review, the ball{soul} is placed in {somewherer not quite Celestia}"
or someting like that.

[bunsen_h]

Didn't he have the review already, and they left him on the vestibule because of it? I guess we'll see.

The stunt with Tony (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0292.html) would have been after that, and might influence matters.

[KorvinStarmast]

The stunt with Tony (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0292.html) would have been after that, and might influence matters. Yeah, I can get behind that line of thinking.

[pendell]

The review was already completed, as I recall, and he was in except for the blood oath. He was left trapped in Limbo by the oath while his son was admitted because Eugene abandoned his oath in life; this exile in limbo was his punishment for doing so.

That doesn't mean he wasn't lawful good, nor does the chaotic actions he has taken since death make him other than lawful good -- it simply makes him a human, not a deva or a paragon, not an exemplar of the alignment. The Deva criticized Roy on much the same lines. Roy lying to his fellow members in earlier books to get them to do what he wanted did not scream "lawful" to the Deva judging his case. Nonetheless, she let him in anyway because he was trying to live up to the tenants of law and good and , for a mortal, that is enough. It isn't enough to qualify for paragon or sainthood, and it might disqualify him from paladinship, but for a lawful good fighter without bonus feats that is enough.

I'm willing to believe Eugene was lawful good when he was judged and remains lawful good now, on the basis that when his case was reviewed it reviewed his entire life, not just what we see on-panel. What we see on-camera is not enough to determine his final destination. He's not the focus of the story and we do not see his character in detail. He's an irascible old man who has a bad relationship with his son, and pops down every once in awhile to deliver sarcasm and exposition. That's his story purpose. We don't know why he was judged to be lawful good in the first place, but I am inclined to believe there must have been off-panel reasons which were sufficient, which Rich isn't telling because he only has so much panel space. Maybe if he has another kickstarter we can get a backstory to fill in the blanks, although I for my part have already had as much of Eugene Greenhilt as I can take.

Good does not mean nice. Good people can be unpleasant to deal with, good people can be bad fathers, good people can make mistakes, good people can experience moral failures. That doesn't mean their alignment changes. That just means they're humans.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Metastachydium]

OoTS establishes, quite clearly, in the Narrative, that one can be LG and a jerk. Miko is the classic example - an LG jerk who never stops being a paladin (she stayed blue) until she fell after laying Shojo low in the throne room (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0407.html).

Try to recall the distinction between "unlikeable" and "lawful good" and "evil" etc.

Eugene is quite the unlikeable character, just as Miko was, but he too can be an LG jerk.

Miko went out of her way to conform to her moral code, she did her best to help the innocent and punish Evil. Her being LG made sense.
I cannot, however, recall a single instance of Eugene doing anything like that. Trying to fulfill the Blood Oath is the closest he came to that, but even that was in part just self interest and he eventually abandoned the quest.

[Emanick]

Miko went out of her way to conform to her moral code, she did her best to help the innocent and punish Evil. Her being LG made sense.
I cannot, however, recall a single instance of Eugene doing anything like that. Trying to fulfill the Blood Oath is the closest he came to that, but even that was in part just self interest and he eventually abandoned the quest.

We know Eugene was judged to be Lawful Good by a "pure Law and Good" deva,

so it seems beyond question that he died a Lawful Good man. It is true that his depicted behavior hardly indicates as much. It is also true, though, that we're not getting a full picture of the man; we mostly see him in interactions with Roy, which seems to bring out the worst in him.

I think that in order for the story to be consistent, we have to make some assumptions, and the simplest set of assumptions seems to me to be something like "Eugene did lots of Good (and Lawful) things off-screen, such as defending innocent villagers from monsters for free or mentoring young wizards and helping them with tuition, and we don't see these things because they're not relevant to the story and in fact would take away from it by making Eugene less of a foil for Roy." Otherwise, we have to assume some other things, like that the devas somehow inexplicably screwed up, or, worse, that Rich is a bad storyteller who wrote something unbelievable, and I don't find those assumptions as plausible.

[KorvinStarmast]

I cannot, however, recall a single instance of Eugene doing anything like that. Given that Eugene is Dead when OoTS begins, and that most of his life was already passed by in the prequels, your objection has no grounds as it has no evidence.
Most of his life happens off screen, in both the spatial and temporal sense.
Which takes me to the fact that, on screen, he's pending his arrival into LG afterlife once the blood oath is completed.
And, Rich's post, which one of these days I'll find; I may have to cast Summon Banana for that one though.

[hamishspence]

We know Eugene was judged to be Lawful Good by a "pure Law and Good" deva,

so it seems beyond question that he died a Lawful Good man.

IMO, unlike with Roy, Eugene's judgement was aborted the moment that they got to the Blood Oath.

The Giant on Eugene's parenting:


Think about what it would be like to grow up with Eugene Greenhilt as your actual father. You would learn pretty quickly that any display of genuine emotion or caring was apt to be stepped on with a sarcastic insult. You might also learn that the only way to get someone to pay attention to you is with harsh language.

[Ploppy]

Miko went out of her way to conform to her moral code, she did her best to help the innocent and punish Evil. Her being LG made sense.
I cannot, however, recall a single instance of Eugene doing anything like that. Trying to fulfill the Blood Oath is the closest he came to that, but even that was in part just self interest and he eventually abandoned the quest.

In Eugene's conversation with Right-Eye he says he dropped the blood oath because his family was more important than adventuring and he encourages Right-Eye to settle down.
So ironically while that caused him to miss Roy's soccer game and widen the rift between the two, Eugene's intention for dropping the quest is at least Good-aligned.

[Emanick]

IMO, unlike with Roy, Eugene's judgement was aborted the moment that they got to the Blood Oath.

Sure, but that was implied to be more of a last-minute-noticing thingy (sorry, I’m bad with words today). The page doesn’t read like the judgment is being interrupted in the middle; it reads like the deva was practically done and then noticed that one outstanding detail. It’s tough to read that page as “Eugene was still likely to be kicked out by something else unrelated to his Blood Oath.”

[JavaScribe]

Such as?


Not that Girard has any right to complain, but he seemed to think Soon would go after him over some "Greater Good" excuse.
Soon prioritized sealing the Gate over not only his own, but also Kraagor's life, and the flashback says that this inflamed years of preexisting resentments.
We know for a fact that the Sapphire Guard was willing to massacre entire innocent goblin villages just because a few goblin priests carrying out a reckless plan happened to live there.

You can argue that these deeds were necessary, but they don't make him look great.

[Metastachydium]

Given that Eugene is Dead when OoTS begins, and that most of his life was already passed by in the prequels, your objection has no grounds as it has no evidence.
Most of his life happens off screen, in both the spatial and temporal sense.
Which takes me to the fact that, on screen, he's pending his arrival into LG afterlife once the blood oath is completed.
And, Rich's post, which one of these days I'll find; I may have to cast Summon Banana for that one though.

I would say we have copious amounts of evidence that he did things that do not befit a LG man, and things like his superiority complex as a wizard (in Origin we learn that he apparently did not talk to his one and only son for three years due to Roy choosing a class he deemed inferior) or abandoning responsibility after responsibility because he got bored (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0495.html) were not things he picked up when he grew old or only did on the rare occasion.
That he is apparently eligible to enter Celestia is incredibly confusing and contradicts basically everything we know about him, especially since we also know that if big enough, a single mistake can easily constitute the difference between LG and TN (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0488.html).

[arimareiji]

The review was already completed, as I recall, and he was in except for the blood oath. He was left trapped in Limbo by the oath while his son was admitted because Eugene abandoned his oath in life; this exile in limbo was his punishment for doing so.

That doesn't mean he wasn't lawful good, nor does the chaotic actions he has taken since death make him other than lawful good -- it simply makes him a human, not a deva or a paragon, not an exemplar of the alignment. The Deva criticized Roy on much the same lines. Roy lying to his fellow members in earlier books to get them to do what he wanted did not scream "lawful" to the Deva judging his case. Nonetheless, she let him in anyway because he was trying to live up to the tenants of law and good and , for a mortal, that is enough. It isn't enough to qualify for paragon or sainthood, and it might disqualify him from paladinship, but for a lawful good fighter without bonus feats that is enough.

I'm willing to believe Eugene was lawful good when he was judged and remains lawful good now, on the basis that when his case was reviewed it reviewed his entire life, not just what we see on-panel. What we see on-camera is not enough to determine his final destination. He's not the focus of the story and we do not see his character in detail. He's an irascible old man who has a bad relationship with his son, and pops down every once in awhile to deliver sarcasm and exposition. That's his story purpose. We don't know why he was judged to be lawful good in the first place, but I am inclined to believe there must have been off-panel reasons which were sufficient, which Rich isn't telling because he only has so much panel space. Maybe if he has another kickstarter we can get a backstory to fill in the blanks, although I for my part have already had as much of Eugene Greenhilt as I can take.

Good does not mean nice. Good people can be unpleasant to deal with, good people can be bad fathers, good people can make mistakes, good people can experience moral failures. That doesn't mean their alignment changes. That just means they're humans.


Respectfully,

Brian P.
Well said.

It's very human to judge people as if what we know of them represents everything about them, because we're first-person storytellers. And there are lots of good reasons - such as two-faced people, or our non-omniscience and limited lifespan to gather data. But as with any quick-and-dirty process it's prone to error, and it's very "hackable".

If I show you every good thing Belkar has ever done and leave out the rest, you might think him a saint. I suspect this will come into play when Minrah grieves for his death, not having seen most of his awful deeds.

If I do the converse with Roy, you might think he's a horrible person. And again, I suspect this will come into play with Minrah - who may be tempted to surreptitiously cast Detect Evil when she sees the party's apathy and joking about Belkar's death.

Be careful of how much data you take in from people* who routinely describe others in a manner that's reminiscent of The Blind Men And The Elephant (https://allpoetry.com/The-Blind-Man-And-The-Elephant). Judging others based on Why They're Evil (or Good), let alone a single instance thereof, is like judging "what happened" in an event based on a single photo.

* - I didn't want to leave any doubt - I don't mean this with respect to anyone here, because I don't believe it applies to anyone here. This is just general old-man-rambling-with-unwanted-advice. (^_^)°

[Fyraltari]

Not that Girard has any right to complain, but he seemed to think Soon would go after him over some "Greater Good" excuse.
Girard also bet that Soon who violate his Oath under twelve weeks' time (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0695.html). The man did not know Soon as much as he thought.

Soon prioritized sealing the Gate over not only his own, but also Kraagor's life, and the flashback says that this inflamed years of preexisting resentments.
We have no context for this resenments though.
EDIT: Okay, we do have some context: Girard didn't appreciate having to deal with all the mapmaking duties.

We know for a fact that the Sapphire Guard was willing to massacre entire innocent goblin villages just because a few goblin priests carrying out a reckless plan happened to live there.

This attack happened 34 years ago (Source: SOD page 9) and Soon passed command of the SG back when Shojo was a little boy. Granted the chronology is wonky since only sixty-six/-seven years (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html) are supposed to have passed since Mijung's death and Shojo looks like an octegenarian (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0408.html), but it seems like soon wasn't in command at the time

[GreatWyrmGold]

Eugene was left trapped in Limbo by the oa—
PEDANTRY ALERT
Limbo's technically a separate plane in the D&D cosmology, not the antechamber to the afterlife. Moreover, in Dante's Inferno, Limbo was specifically the antechamber to hell. Discussing the broader meaning of Limbo would cross the line from arguably-just-literature* into no-that's-definitely-religion, but I think it's safe to say Limbo isn't ever an entrance into heaven.

*And I will make that argument if I have to.


Nonetheless, she let [Roy] in anyway because he was trying to live up to the tenants of law and good and , for a mortal, that is enough.
Evidence of Eugene trying to be Lawful Good is somewhat lacking at this point. Moreover, one of Eugene's primary character flaws is not trying. Assuming that he tried to be LG enough off-panel to avoid the infernal pits of...um, probably Mechanicus isn't an invalid position, but it's not strong enough to effectively attack the "Eugene's getting kicked out of heaven" position.


Given that Eugene is Dead when OoTS begins, and that most of his life was already passed by in the prequels, your objection has no grounds as it has no evidence.
I disagree. What we see of Eugene isn't his whole life, but it does likely indicate how he tends to act. We have evidence supporting this thanks to Roy's reactions to Eugene's actions, which indicate that the way he acts on-panel is how he acted off-panel while he was alive. And also on-panel while he was alive, for that matter.
It's your position that has no evidence, because it relies entirely on pointing at places we have no evidence and saying that all of Eugene's LG actions happened there, and that we can't prove otherwise. Granted, those are decade-sized holes, but we have zero reason to think the contents of those holes are radically different than the brief flashbacks we've seen in between.

[KorvinStarmast]

I disagree. What we see of Eugene isn't his whole life, And yet the Cosmos, when his whole life was over depostied him at the doorstep of Celestia.

I am back to "you can be LG and a jerk at the same time" since it fits the author's assignment of alignment.

I do, however, take bunsen_h's point: since he's been pulling shenanigans since he got put on hold, he may warrant a second review and get slapped with "Dude, you just ain't lawful" and sent on his merry way. But that's in the future, not now, and in any case it's after the blood oath is completed by his offspring. I get the idea that he's in some kind of odd purgatory equivalent, in that he knows that he Can't Get In and he has to watch as his offspring don't (so far) take care of his unfinished business.


Not that Girard has any right to complain, but he seemed to think Soon would go after him over some "Greater Good" excuse.
Soon prioritized sealing the Gate over not only his own, but also Kraagor's life, and the flashback says that this inflamed years of preexisting resentments.
We know for a fact that the Sapphire Guard was willing to massacre entire innocent goblin villages just because a few goblin priests carrying out a reckless plan happened to live there.

Interesting points, but Girard and the rest hardly know about point 3, all they have is point 2, and your point 1 makes Girard not a credible witness. (And Soon didn't actually do that, did he? No, he didn't)
Your points, however, may get substantially greater support in subsequent strips as we learn more about the Scribblers from Serini - bearing in mind that she's careless with the truth as a habit. :smallwink:

As to this:

That he is apparently eligible to enter Celestia is incredibly confusing and contradicts basically everything we know about him Maybe the problem is the lens that you are looking through.

[arimareiji]

...
Your points, however, may get substantially greater support in subsequent strips as we learn more about the Scribblers from Serini - bearing in mind that she's careless with the truth as a habit. :smallwink:
Just being picky, but ymmv on whether it's "carelessness" per se. Imagine you're watching someone walk toward you, and you expect them to take a straight path because that's the most efficient. Instead, they meander so haphazardly that you think they must be careless or drunk.

Then you get an overhead view, and see the pile of dog crap they avoided at the last moment, the puddle they walked around, the broken glass they picked their way through, etc. Not having a purpose that we expect doesn't mean they don't have one. (^_~)b


As to this:
Maybe the problem is the lens that you are looking through.
A much better synopsis than my long rant above.