What would make a Poison cantrip worth it?

[heavyfuel]

Right now, we have two poison-based cantrips: Poison Spray (d12, 10ft, Con save) and Infestation (d6, 30ft, Con save, crappy rider). I don't think I even have to say that both are in a level of terrible on par with True Strike.

So, what would it take for a Poison damage cantrip to be worth it?

I'm thinking d6 damage and Poisoned condition on a failed Con save. Poisoned condition is pretty strong, but a crapton of monsters are resistant to poison damage or outright immune to it.

Too strong? Not strong enough? What else do you have in mind?

[Millstone85]

Allowing the selection of poison damage when taking the Elemental Adept feat.

[stoutstien]

Poison spray- make it a 10 ft cone aoe.

Infestation- change damage to half poison and half piercing. Change to 2d4 damage.

[Theodoxus]

When I clicked on the thread, my thoughts going in were d6 damage and Poisoned condition on a failed Con save. But thinking more on it, I think straight d4 with a Con Save or suffer d4 more and the Poisoned condition. Thus if you get the poison to stick, they're more likely to keep taking damage every round you use it. I also think it should have no more than a 10' range, the Poisoned condition lasts until the start of your next round and it requires V,S,M so it takes some investment to be usable in melee.

I suggest a small damage die because it's automatic damage, but on a highly resisted damage type (a dwarf is going to take 2 points max; Yuan-ti and undead (sorry Vamps) are outright immune to it).

[Dark.Revenant]

Allowing the selection of poison damage when taking the Elemental Adept feat.

Poison resistance is very rare. Dwarves and very few other creatures are resistant to poison.

[LudicSavant]

Allowing the selection of poison damage when taking the Elemental Adept feat.

Unfortunately, the issue with Poison damage isn't Resistance... it's Immunity. And Elemental Adept doesn't bypass immmunity.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/423216976001892365/730487718819266690/unknown.png
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?612317-Resistances-Immunities-and-Vulnerabilities-of-Monsters-in-MM-Volo-s-and-MToF


Right now, we have two poison-based cantrips: Poison Spray (d12, 10ft, Con save) and Infestation (d6, 30ft, Con save, crappy rider). I don't think I even have to say that both are in a level of terrible on par with True Strike.

So, what would it take for a Poison damage cantrip to be worth it?

I'm thinking d6 damage and Poisoned condition on a failed Con save. Poisoned condition is pretty strong, but a crapton of monsters are resistant to poison damage or outright immune to it.

Too strong? Not strong enough? What else do you have in mind?

I don't think you'd have to do an awful lot for Poison Spray, honestly. Like, if it targeted Wis and had a 60 foot range like Toll the Dead, you'd probably see Druids taking it sometimes, despite the Poison type damage.

[heavyfuel]

Unfortunately, the issue with Poison damage isn't Resistance... it's Immunity. And Elemental Adept doesn't bypass immmunity.

It was this table that inspired me to start this thread!

Also, gotta say I love that you put Poison in its own category even though it's only slightly worse than non-magical BPS :smallbiggrin:

[heavyfuel]

I don't think you'd have to do an awful lot for Poison Spray, honestly. Like, if it targeted Wis and had a 60 foot range like Toll the Dead, you'd probably see Druids taking it sometimes, despite the Poison type damage.

I think it's kinda hard to justify Poison being resisted by anything other than Con, though. I'm sure one can come up with a flimsy rationalization of why it might, but I think that'd be... well... a flimsy rationalization

[ProsecutorGodot]

I think it's kinda hard to justify Poison being resisted by anything other than Con, though. I'm sure one can come up with a flimsy rationalization of why it might, but I think that'd be... well... a flimsy rationalization

Poison is pretty hard to logically separate from having a strong body to overcome it, but D&D has plenty of things that are justified only by "it's magic" so we could go with that.

[Millstone85]

Poison resistance is very rare.
Unfortunately, the issue with Poison damage isn't Resistance... it's Immunity.Ah, that does change things. :smallfrown:

[PhoenixPhyre]

Poison spray- make it a 10 ft cone aoe.


When I first read it, that's what I thought it was. And may have run it that way a few times. AoE cantrips have a place, I think.

[GentlemanVoodoo]

I think it's kinda hard to justify Poison being resisted by anything other than Con, though. I'm sure one can come up with a flimsy rationalization of why it might, but I think that'd be... well... a flimsy rationalization

Might be, might be not.

I kind of agree with in the case of just straight poisoning from a source like a snake bit or something to that effect.

Yet there are some poisons in real life that do have other effects which for 5e mechanics could translate to a resistance with other stats. For example, there is one form of mercury poisoning that can damage the nervous system and brain causing cases of mild to extreme psychosis. It is appropriately named Mad Hatter's Disease. Having something like this in 5e could be made where a failed Int roll to resist caused damage and some effect where the target goes mildly crazy.

But this gets into how much of real life effects you want brought into a fantasy world.

[Kane0]

Poison spray being a 10' cone sounds good to me.

What I would like to see is a Poison cantrip combo. Say instead of Infestation's random movement it also Poisons the target for a turn on a failed save, and Poison spray on top of being a 10' cone also deals an additional d12 against targets that are Poisoned.

Maybe not add Poison to Elemental Adept, but rather modify the Poisoner feat to turn Immunity to Resistance, Ignore Resistance and even add Vulnerability if the target isn't Immune or Resistant. That would make it pretty damn potent on it's own really, then you can take out the poisonmaking bullet.

[Garfunion]

There is always the sorcerer argument metamagic, to allow you to switch damage type.

[No brains]

Maybe if the cantrip had a good save avenue and a rider that's good even without hurting a creature. Intelligence saves are pretty rare, but I don't know how to make that work with poison. Maybe something like...

Defensive Stench Cloud
1 action
V,S,M (Garlic, or another pungent herb)
5 foot radius
1 round duration

Creatures of your choice within range have to will themselves to attack you through your stench. When cast, creatures of your choice within range must make a charisma saving throw. On a failed save, a creature takes 1d10 poison damage. If an affected creature starts its turn within the stench cloud, it can only make one attack roll on its turn as it struggles to concentrate though the overwhelming odor. The spell smells so bad that it affects even creatures immune poison, those that do not breathe, and those without a sense of smell.

Basic cantrip progression.

That's probably too good and people might not appreciate a rude cantrip like that, but it would work great against swarms of weak mobs as well as bosses, even without damage.

[Mellack]

The poison cantrips seem fine. In a white room, they look in line with the other cantrips. The problem is in the monsters. So many have immunity that it generally is not worth taking. It just becomes too niche when it has no chance of working on seemingly half the creatures.

[Pex]

Not worrying how many monsters in the Monster Manual are resistant/immune to poison and just play the game. It is prudent to have a second damage cantrip because you will face poison resistant/immune creatures, but it will not be every foe you face nor the majority. If the campaign is specific enough where every foe you face or most of them will be resistant/immune to poison then it is the DM's job to tell you taking a poison cantrip is not a good idea.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Not worrying how many monsters in the Monster Manual are resistant/immune to poison and just play the game. It is prudent to have a second damage cantrip because you will face poison resistant/immune creatures, but it will not be every foe you face nor the majority. If the campaign is specific enough where every foe you face or most of them will be resistant/immune to poison then it is the DM's job to tell you taking a poison cantrip is not a good idea.

I think the issue is that they're not really good choices as a secondary cantrip either.

[Greywander]

Also, gotta say I love that you put Poison in its own category even though it's only slightly worse than non-magical BPS :smallbiggrin:
Not exactly. Non-magical BPS has a lot of resistant enemies, plus a few immune, but poison is almost entirely immune with only a few resistant. They might have a similar number of resistant + immune enemies, but the ratio of resistant to immune is also hugely important, and it makes poison a lot worse than non-magical BPS.

[J-H]

I've actually used Poison Spray pretty heavily on my abjurer. With the different defenses, I don't mind getting close.
Enemies have a slightly better chance of failing a DC 14 save than I do of hitting them with a +6 spell attack roll, and 2d12 is really nice when you roll well. I know on one of my castings I rolled a 23 for damage and it pretty much obliterated whatever the enemy was.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Not exactly. Non-magical BPS has a lot of resistant enemies, plus a few immune, but poison is almost entirely immune with only a few resistant. They might have a similar number of resistant + immune enemies, but the ratio of resistant to immune is also hugely important, and it makes poison a lot worse than non-magical BPS.

I think though that these types of comparisons are skewed, depending on what you face. If you mostly face humanoids, giants, dragons, beast, or aberrations? Or heck, even oozes and fey. Poison's golden. Lots of fiends, elementals, constructs, or undead? It sucks. Basically there are types that are only very rarely immune to poison, and types that are basically all (70+%, with most in the 80s or 90s) immune to poison. With only a very few others, and even those are in the low teens % immune.

So depending on the campaign, it can be great (although the limited range makes it worse; make it a 10' cone and it'd be great in those campaigns).

[jas61292]

Honestly, the worst thing about poison spray is not the damage type. Its the range. If it had a 60 ft range, or even 30, it would probably be relatively popular. Sure, poison as a damage type is mediocre, but the things immune to it are generally the entirety of certain categories of creatures. Its generally very easy to know when something is going to be immune (undead, construct, from another plane), so as long as you have a back up option for those situations, it would be fine. But with a range of 10 feet, most casters are simply never going to want to put themselves in a situation to use that. Its damage is very potent, but its abysmal range, not the damage type, causes it to be seen as one of the worst cantrips.

[Kane0]

That and its a CON save, monsters usually have good CON on top of you not wanting to be near them as your average caster type.

[Greywander]

That and its a CON save, monsters usually have good CON on top of you not wanting to be near them as your average caster type.
It depends. Your big brutes like dragons or giants all have good CON saves, but your typical mook swarm such as goblins or kobolds often has a better DEX save. This is why I'd probably pick Thunderclap over Sword Burst, and why the Sun Soul's Fireball ripoff might not be as bad as people think. For a single target spell like Poison Spray, though, CON saves are generally not great. Making it a cone would work better, though I'd drop the damage die to a d8 or d6.

If you're going to take two damage cantrips, though, the optimal loadout is probably an attack cantrip and a WIS save cantrip. Enemy casters generally have high WIS saves, and might have decent CON or DEX saves, but often are light on AC, whereas enemy martials could have good AC or good DEX saves or good CON saves, but often lack a strong WIS save. Though with Mind Sliver now available, it might be a better pick than a WIS save cantrip, as there are a lot of monsters that dump INT harder than they dump WIS.

[Composer99]

Right now, we have two poison-based cantrips: Poison Spray (d12, 10ft, Con save) and Infestation (d6, 30ft, Con save, crappy rider). I don't think I even have to say that both are in a level of terrible on par with True Strike.

So, what would it take for a Poison damage cantrip to be worth it?

I'm thinking d6 damage and Poisoned condition on a failed Con save. Poisoned condition is pretty strong, but a crapton of monsters are resistant to poison damage or outright immune to it.

Too strong? Not strong enough? What else do you have in mind?

Fire bolt is a 120-foot ranged spell attack dealing 1d10 fire damage. If you want to make poison spray comparable, making its range 60 feet, or maybe 90 feet, would be enough, if you're only looking at the characteristics of the spell itself (at least IMO). For extrinsic reasons, which I will discuss below, poison spray should also require a ranged attack roll in lieu of a Constitution saving throw, again IMO. Those would be enough to rehabilitate poison spray were it not for the wider problem with poison damage.

The problem with poison spray's poison damage is the number of creatures immune to it. The problem with poison spray's Con save is the number of creatures with strong Con saves (which is, if memory serves, monsters' best save on average). Neither of those problems are intrinsic to poison spray itself.

The way to fix poison damage, then, is to adjust the number of creatures immune to it. By my rough reckoning, there are 704 statblocks in the MM, VGtM, and MToF. As per LudicSavant's number crunching, of those statblocks, 199 are immune to poison damage, or just over 28%. That is a lot of monsters immune to poison damage - and most, if not all, of them will also be immune to the poisoned condition. It's hard to argue against, say, constructs and undead writ large, along with some elementals, being immune to poison damage, but there is just cause to reconsider most other creatures having same. If you cut down to constructs, undead, green dragons, a few elementals, and a smattering of other creatures, and leave a few resistances (maybe convert some immunities to resistances), you'd have poison damage be comparable to fire or cold damage, which would be fine.

As for Constitution saves, I think it's hard to argue that "brute" creatures should not have strong Constitution saves. Poison spray should probably therefore also be a ranged spell attack (especially since the title of the spell brings to mind, at least in my mind, a blast of fluid rather like a jet-spray setting on a hose, quite unlike the spell's description of "a puff of noxious gas").

As for infestation: I would dump the clunky rider effect, make it a Dexterity saving throw to avoid the poison damage (you're trying to evade being caught in the cloud of parasites, and if you get caught in it, you're gettin' bit) and add the poisoned condition until the end of the caster's next turn as the rider.

[xyianth]

I don't know if this helps, but I have a homebrew class that has several abilities based around the use of either primal savagery, acid splash, poison spray, or infestation depending on which subclass option is chosen. I've never posted the class here, but the concept is that your character is a host to a symbiotic swarm of your choice: beetles(primal savagery), wasps(acid splash), locusts(infestation), or spiders(poison spray). As the class progresses, you gain additional effects with your cantrip that significantly improve its efficacy. (similar to how warlocks can improve their eldritch blast) Here is a quick rundown of the abilities I came up with to make these cantrips more useful:

primal savagery:

You add your Wisdom modifier to damage dealt.
You can use this cantrip as an opportunity attack.
When you use this cantrip, you can target any number of creatures within 5' of you.


acid splash:

Any target damaged by your acid splash takes additional acid damage equal to half your class level at the start of their next turn.
Any target that successfully saves against your acid splash provokes opportunity attacks from any allies within 5' by doing so.
You can now target any two creatures within range, even if they are more than 5' apart.


infestation:

Any creature that successfully saves against your infestation takes half damage.
The forced movement from this cantrip provokes opportunity attacks.
You can target any number of additional creatures within 5' of your target creature.


poison spray:

Any target that fails its save against your poison spray is poisoned until the end of their next turn.
Any target you use poison spray against cannot take reactions until the start of their next turn, regardless of whether they save against your poison spray.
Your poison spray targets all creatures in a 10' cone.


Finally, I gave the class an ability called Adaptive Venom: Whenever you would deal acid, poison, or necrotic damage, you can choose to inflict any of those three types of damage instead.

The class has lots of other abilities that can be used to enhance the cantrip spam playstyle as well: (the class is a third caster in terms of spellcasting slots per day, similar to an eldritch knight or arcane trickster)

Concealed Parasite:

Whenever you deal damage with a spell, you conceal a hidden parasite on the target. this parasite can only be detected with a investigation check that takes 1 minute and has a DC equal to your spell DC. you can sense the direction of any concealed parasite for 24 hours after hiding it. if you have line of sight to a creature that has a concealed parasite on it, you know that creature’s exact location. as a reaction during that creature’s turn, you can sacrifice a spell slot to command the concealed parasite to sacrifice itself to damage the creature. This deals 2d8 poison damage for a 1st-level spell slot, plus 1d8 for each spell level higher than 1st, to a maximum of 5d8. no creature can have more than 1 concealed parasite at the same time.

Aspect of the Colony:

You can manifest an aspect of the swarm that you are host to as a bonus action for 10 minutes or until dismissed as a bonus action. You can use this ability twice. You regain all expended uses after completing a short or long rest. When you first gain this ability choose an aspect:

Armored Exoskeleton
- Your AC becomes 10 + your Proficiency Bonus + your Wisdom Modifier
- At the start of your turn you gain temp hp equal to your Proficiency Bonus
- When you make a melee attack while you have temp hp, you can choose to sacrifice your temp hp to increase the damage of the melee attack by three times the amount of temp hp sacrificed
Swarm Transformation
- You can move through any space as if you were a tiny creature
- You can move through and occupy the space of any creature
- If you move through a creature’s space or a creature enters or starts its turn sharing your space, that creature takes poison damage equal to your level in this class + your wisdom modifier
- You are resistant to all damage except fire
Hive Mind
- You summon a drone to any unoccupied space within 30’ that is under your command until it dies or is dismissed; if the drone dies or is dismissed, you must spend another use of your ability if yiou want to summon it again.
- The drone has hp equal to 10 times your class level
- The drone has an AC equal to 10 + your proficiency bonus + your wisdom modifier
- Your drone has the same movement speeds that you do and moves when you do
- When you cast a spell, you can treat any drone under your command as the origin of the spell
- As a reaction to a creature dying within 5’ of any drone under your command you can order your drone to infest that creature. infesting a creature causes your drone to transfer any remaining hp to the creature and then dispersing. the target creature becomes your drone until it dies or is dismissed with a bonus action. if dismissed, the creature dies.



Evolved Aspect:


Armored Exoskeleton
- you gain the mold earth cantrip as a bonus cantrip known
- you gain a burrow speed equal to your walking speed while your aspect of the colony ability is active
Swarm Transformation
- you gain the dancing lights cantrip as a bonus cantrip known
- you gain a flying speed equal to your walking speed while your aspect of the colony ability is active
Hive Mind
- you gain the friends cantrip as a bonus cantrip known
- as a reaction to being attacked, you can swap locations with one of your active drones. This interrupts the attack and forces it to resolve against your drone instead of you.



Parasitic Evolution:

You can regain a use of your aspect of the colony ability by spending an HD.

[Kane0]

Dont forget all those dwarves and halflings out there, even if you arent facing fiends, golems and undead there are a notable amount of creactures that you would want a secondary cantrip to deal with.

Come to think of it, i might just make all celestials vulnerable to poison when i DM. Would be a nice change of pace

[Galithar]

So the immunity that is so widespread is why I almost never see players take poison based anything. Cantrips known are generally too valuable to "waste" on something that is useless so often.

On the subject I started thinking about the concept of magical poison. As to not derail this thread I created a new one to discuss this. If anyone is iterested: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?627701-Magical-Poison-damage

[Witty Username]

Allowing poison spray to hit more than one target would be a start.

The poisoned condition is pretty strong when it applies, that would be worth a cantrip.

[Kylar0990]

Allowing the selection of poison damage when taking the Elemental Adept feat.

There aren't that many monsters that are resistant to poison, but an absolute ton of them are immune so Elemental Adept wouldn't help that much if it included poison.

[Greywander]

There aren't that many monsters that are resistant to poison, but an absolute ton of them are immune so Elemental Adept wouldn't help that much if it included poison.
The Poisoner feat from Tasha's is also basically Elemental Adept for poison damage. It's a bad feat for exactly the same reasons that Elemental Adept (poison) would be; there just aren't a lot of poison-resistant enemies, but a lot of immune ones.

It's not that poison damage is completely unusable, it's just that there's a pretty broad swathe of enemies against which it is useless. Against anyone else, it can be pretty effective. The main reason I don't take poison cantrips is that I don't get a lot of cantrips and I'd rather take a more reliable damage cantrip and a utility cantrip instead of two damage cantrips because one of them does poison damage. It's one of the reasons I don't usually take Fire Bolt, either.

[brainface]

Right now, we have two poison-based cantrips: Poison Spray (d12, 10ft, Con save) and Infestation (d6, 30ft, Con save, crappy rider). I don't think I even have to say that both are in a level of terrible on par with True Strike.

Im going to disagree heavily: true strike costs an action to do something that's roughly equal to just not casting true strike. If a living non-dwarf gets adjacent to you, which is not that rare of an occurance, poison spray is the most damaging cantrip outside of booming blade shenanigans. Its numbers (damage, number of targets, and arguably range--its a melee cantrip in disguise!) don't need any sort of buff. I'd argue something like "make undead only resistant to poison damage" is the actual correction needed.

[elyktsorb]

I still stand by the fact that if the Poisoner feat made it so your poison damage treated immunity as resistance and then ignored resistance when applying poison damage, it would be fine. (Especially since the ignoring resistance part it already has is a moot point because barely anything resists poison)

[MrStabby]

It isn't just immunity to poison that is the issue. It is the fact it correlates with so many other immunities.

Look at devils - immune to poison, but also immune to fire and with magic resistance. So here is an enemy you won't be harming with most of your spells that need a save, so you are looking at attack roll saves which tend to be a) cantrips, b) bad or c) scorching ray/inflict wounds.

If you are picking a cantrip to compliment your other spells you want something that is great when your other spells are bad. Lots of save spells plus eldritch blast is great as you can hit things that are magic resistant.

The degree to which poison immunity correlates with other immunities and resistances means that it tends to be a bad option just at the times you really want your secondary option to be good.

If you are creating a poison cantrip, I would say its going to be tough. You want something that is able to be comparible with an action with spells like hold person and command for when you are fighting humanoids, as these are likely to be most of your enemies tha are NOT poison immune (not saying they should be equal, just good enough to be a meaningful choice about which to use).

So... to give a "poison" cantrip its place, I would make it something like poisoning a blade. An action to add Xd6 poison damage to your next weapon attack means it has some value in preparation for a fight, useful when you cant chose a good enemy, or waiting for disadvantage to go.

[heavyfuel]

If you are creating a poison cantrip, I would say its going to be tough. You want something that is able to be comparible with an action with spells like hold person and command for when you are fighting humanoids, as these are likely to be most of your enemies tha are NOT poison immune (not saying they should be equal, just good enough to be a meaningful choice about which to use).

So... to give a "poison" cantrip its place, I would make it something like poisoning a blade. An action to add Xd6 poison damage to your next weapon attack means it has some value in preparation for a fight, useful when you cant chose a good enemy, or waiting for disadvantage to go.

MrStabby suggesting a spell that makes stabbing people more effective. Am I noticing a pattern here? :smallbiggrin:

I could see i working like the Light cantrip. 1 hour duration, touch range, ends if you cast it again. Dealing an extra d6 poison damage (no save - the wielder already has to hit AC) and maybe forcing a Con save vs Poisoned condition for 1 round?

[MrStabby]

MrStabby suggesting a spell that makes stabbing people more effective. Am I noticing a pattern here? :smallbiggrin:
Everyone needs a hobby!



I could see i working like the Light cantrip. 1 hour duration, touch range, ends if you cast it again. Dealing an extra d6 poison damage (no save - the wielder already has to hit AC) and maybe forcing a Con save vs Poisoned condition for 1 round?
Hmm, I was thinking of scaling damage but poison for one round is something that scales OK anyway.

It would need a caster willing to make a weapon attack though, which makes it a bit niche (which isn't actually a bad thing).

[LumenPlacidum]

First, I agree with the idea of a poison-damage cantrip that is an add-on to an attack. I'd structure it like Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade. Each of these has a mitigating factor that prevents it from being purely just plus big damage (at least until higher levels), like GFB needing two targets to be adjacent or BB needing the target to move. I think poison damage coupled with damage that's lower than d8s would work sufficiently well for such a limitation. Perhaps it's an action cantrip that lets you make a weapon attack with a slashing damage or piercing damage weapon, and makes the attack deal +1d6 poison damage. At level 5 it boosts to +2d6 poison damage; at level 11 to +3d6; at level 17 to +4d6. The ability to apply it to bow attacks I think would make it very appealing to people, even though it's not very sexy in terms of extra damage.


With regards to poison spray, rather than having it apply the Poisoned condition (which is probably too strong for a cantrip), make it so that when it affects someone who is already Poisoned, the target auto-fails the save. Now it has a circumstantial bonus, but when that circumstance is met, it becomes a strong damaging option that has synergy with other abilities (which always makes builds more interesting).

Infestation? I don't really understand the spell to begin with. I think the movement is bolted-on and doesn't make sense. I'd prefer that it have the chance to deal some poison damage and then give the target disadvantage on Constitution saves to concentrate on a spell, starting with the save for the poison damage that this cantrip is doing.

[heavyfuel]

Hmm, I was thinking of scaling damage but poison for one round is something that scales OK anyway.

It would need a caster willing to make a weapon attack though, which makes it a bit niche (which isn't actually a bad thing).

Oh, I meant d6 per tier. So 1d6, plus an extra 1d6 at 5th, 11th, and 17th.

I was thinking it could be used to pre-buff the Fighter (or whomever). Cast it on them, and let them make an attack? The biggest issue with this is that it would be too useful mid combat, which is when most damage cantrips are used.

Lowering the duration to 1 minute but making it usable at range would make it better in that sense. You could be constantly buffing your martials in combat, which is nice as it encourages cooperation.

Or it could be a blade cantrip like BB/GFB, probably removing the initial d6

[heavyfuel]

With regards to poison spray, rather than having it apply the Poisoned condition (which is probably too strong for a cantrip), make it so that when it affects someone who is already Poisoned, the target auto-fails the save. Now it has a circumstantial bonus, but when that circumstance is met, it becomes a strong damaging option that has synergy with other abilities (which always makes builds more interesting).

Infestation? I don't really understand the spell to begin with. I think the movement is bolted-on and doesn't make sense. I'd prefer that it have the chance to deal some poison damage and then give the target disadvantage on Constitution saves to concentrate on a spell, starting with the save for the poison damage that this cantrip is doing.

I like the idea of the target auto-failing the save when Poisoned, although it probably still needs some other buff. Either increased range or making it a 10ft cone as was suggested. A d12 cantrip that - given the right (not easily achievable) circumstances can deal guaranteed damage is pretty nice.

Agree with Infestation. I have no idea what they were trying to accomplish with it.

[da newt]

In order for a poison cantrip to compete with other existing cantrips it would need to be more powerful than others to counter the high immunity rate.

The SCAG cantrip idea is interesting, but does not cater to caster PCs - it caters to GISH types, but could be unique/flavorful if it worked with ranged/thrown weapons.

For a caster cantrip, I'd look to create a small AoE, a short range, and a short duration Poisoned Condition. Something like 20' cone, 1d10 damage (normal level progression) and CON save vs Poisoned Condition until the end of your next turn. This would make it a bit more powerful than most cantrips (the plus) but effective against fewer foes due to immunity (the minus).

[Tanarii]

Creatures with poison immunity is a side issue, unless you're battling hordes of undead or fiends.

The big issue is range. d12 at 10ft range didn't sound like a good deal to many people even before XTGE and SCAG introduced new cantrips.

Giving it a boost of some kind on top of being the highest damaging cantrip might make it appealing to arcane casters other than EKs. (Or even competitive with SCAG if they're allowed.)

[sithlordnergal]

I personally have to disagree with Tanarii, range is an issue with Poison Cantrips, but its not the biggest issue. If it were then you wouldn't see people take spells like Thorn Whip or Primal Savagery, two spells with similar or shorter ranges then Infestation and Poison Spray. No, the two biggest issue is how many creatures are immune to Poison and the fact that Con saves are unreliable at best. Nearly every undead, almost all Elementals, every single Construct, all Fiends, heck even some Monstrosities are immune to Poison. The only way you're have a campaign where Poison Immunity doesn't become an issue is if you're only facing Humanoids, Beasts, and Abberations. Meaning it can, technically, be done, but in most campaigns you're going to run into at least 1 Zombie.

Therefore, if you want to make a Poison Cantrip worth it, you need to deal with the Poison Immunity issue. Given how common Poison Immunity is, I think it'd be fair to make a cantrip that can treat Poison Immunity as Poison Resistance instead. Specifically, I'd have it do the following:


Casting Time: 1 action

Range: 60ft

Duration: 1 Round

The targeted creature must succeed a Constitution saving throw or take 1d4 Poison damage. Additionally, if the targeted creature failed the Constitution save and is immune to Poison damage, they lose that immunity and have Resistance to Poison damage instead until the end of your next turn.

---

There, now you have a way to get past Poison Immunity. It also has potential to work with the Poisoner Feat since it turns Immunity into Resistance instead, rewarding players for good synergy. I also made it last until the end of the Caster's next turn, that way a person can cast it, then cast a Poison spell like Ray of Sickness. It also doesn't remove immunity to the Poisoned condition, so creatures will only take damage from poison spells and poison in general. Finally, I set the damage to a d4 since removing Immunity is a powerful effect.

As for concerns of it being "too strong", the effects only last a single round, meaning you're still limited in how much Poison damage you can do to a target. Plus lets be honest, Poison damage needs to have a bone thrown to it. Its the worst damage type in the game for a reason, so I don't think making a cantrip that ignores Poison Immunity is that game breaking. It also makes abilities or magic items that ignore Poison Resistance feel like less of a slap in the face, since such items are virtually useless since there are only 15 creatures Resistant to Poison.

[Tanarii]

I personally have to disagree with Tanarii,Thats it, it's personal! :smallwink:


range is an issue with Poison Cantrips, but its not the biggest issue. If it were then you wouldn't see people take spells like Thorn Whip or Primal Savagery, two spells with similar or shorter ranges then Infestation and Poison Spray. Thorn Whip has a 30ft range. Poison Spray is 10ft. That's a world of difference.

I didn't see players taking primal savagery. IMX it is regarded even worse than Poison Spray.


OTOH it's fair to say it is the combination of things.
- short range
- single target
- poison damage
- no rider
- con save

Is d12 damage worth all that? Almost certainly not.

[heavyfuel]

Therefore, if you want to make a Poison Cantrip worth it, you need to deal with the Poison Immunity issue. Given how common Poison Immunity is, I think it'd be fair to make a cantrip that can treat Poison Immunity as Poison Resistance instead.

While this would perhaps solve the issue of poison damage from a gameplay perspective, I do think it's plain stupid from a "logic" perspective. Yeah yeah logic and d&d don't work well together, I know. But I still expect there to be some logic in my games. Why would an animated object - which is literally just a regular everyday object being manipulated like a puppet - get poisoned?

If you wanna handwave people being able to poison a brick wall, go for it, but I wouldn't go that route.

I feel like a Poison cantrip should have enough benefits to make up for the immunities. It's a situational cantrip. Most characters can't afford more than two damage cantrip (unless they couldn't care less about utility), so picking a powerful - yet niche - damage cantrip is a risk. If you pick Firebolt and the new-Poison-cantrip, there's a good chance some of your enemies will be both immune to poison AND (at least resistant to) fire. So picking the new-Poison-cantrip means either you have something hardly ever resisted (Sacred Flame or Eldritch Blast) or it means losing a lot utility.

[Pex]

I personally have to disagree with Tanarii, range is an issue with Poison Cantrips, but its not the biggest issue. If it were then you wouldn't see people take spells like Thorn Whip or Primal Savagery, two spells with similar or shorter ranges then Infestation and Poison Spray. No, the two biggest issue is how many creatures are immune to Poison and the fact that Con saves are unreliable at best. Nearly every undead, almost all Elementals, every single Construct, all Fiends, heck even some Monstrosities are immune to Poison. The only way you're have a campaign where Poison Immunity doesn't become an issue is if you're only facing Humanoids, Beasts, and Abberations. Meaning it can, technically, be done, but in most campaigns you're going to run into at least 1 Zombie.




When you face a zombie you cast something else. It is not a necessity for a spell to be applicable for every scenario possible. You're not only facing undead, elementals, constructs, and fiends in a campaign. You will be facing humanoids, beasts, and abberations, so you can use a poison spell then.

It is the DM's job to tell a player if particular spells will be useless for the oncoming campaign due to fiat circumstances. It is the player's job to diversify his spell selection to account for situations where a particular spell won't work.

[Kane0]

Poison blade: scag-like straight poison damage to weapon attack
Infestation: mid-range poison damage + condition for short duration
Poison spray: short range cone of poison damage, extra if a target is poisoned

Problems i see:
- two out of three use con saves. Could potentially fix this by making infestation an attack spell with secondary save but then its basically identical to ray of sickness
- you might want more than one in your limited cantrip slots to maximise combo potential, especially if you dont want to rely on ray of sickness and similar. Not strictly necessary however and there are ways to get more cantrips
- still doesnt deal with immunity

On immunity, i would change up the poisoner feat to:
- Apply poison as bonus action with no chance of applying to self
- Craft poisons twice as fast, and can make one dose of basic poison during a short rest (which expire at the end of a long rest)
- when you deal poison damage to a creature you treat immunity as resistance, ignore resistance and once per long rest can apply vulnerability to a creature that is neither immune nor resistant (for that one instance of damage).

So without the feat the poison options are strong but situational, and if you want to make them more reliable the feat gives you a well rounded improvement so you can happily use poison as a primary means of attack

[Morty]

I think though that these types of comparisons are skewed, depending on what you face. If you mostly face humanoids, giants, dragons, beast, or aberrations? Or heck, even oozes and fey. Poison's golden. Lots of fiends, elementals, constructs, or undead? It sucks. Basically there are types that are only very rarely immune to poison, and types that are basically all (70+%, with most in the 80s or 90s) immune to poison. With only a very few others, and even those are in the low teens % immune.

So depending on the campaign, it can be great (although the limited range makes it worse; make it a 10' cone and it'd be great in those campaigns).

Of course, one of the poison-immune categories, undead, are a pretty common enemy, on every tier of play. Not every campaign will involve undead, but many of them will.

[MrStabby]

When you face a zombie you cast something else. It is not a necessity for a spell to be applicable for every scenario possible. You're not only facing undead, elementals, constructs, and fiends in a campaign. You will be facing humanoids, beasts, and abberations, so you can use a poison spell then.

It is the DM's job to tell a player if particular spells will be useless for the oncoming campaign due to fiat circumstances. It is the player's job to diversify his spell selection to account for situations where a particular spell won't work.

But that's the problem I was talking about - the time you want to bust out your secondary cantrip is the time when you have fewer other spells that work. Enemies that are immune to poison are also more likely than average to have immunity to fear, to charm, or have magic resistance or other protection from your other spells. It isn't a problem that a lot of stuff is immune to poison, the problem is that it is immune to poison when you need to be relying more heavily on your secondary effects.

[Kane0]

And we dont want to make one cantrip to rule them all, ideally we should be trying to make the poison ones worth taking even if they wont always be the best option

[Pex]

But that's the problem I was talking about - the time you want to bust out your secondary cantrip is the time when you have fewer other spells that work. Enemies that are immune to poison are also more likely than average to have immunity to fear, to charm, or have magic resistance or other protection from your other spells. It isn't a problem that a lot of stuff is immune to poison, the problem is that it is immune to poison when you need to be relying more heavily on your secondary effects.

Since when do people complain a particular monster makes life difficult for a spellcaster, poor spellcaster you're so weak?

A wizard could have as his damage cantrips Fire Bolt and Ray of Frost. One day he will face a creature resistant/immune to both fire and cold. He deals with it. I would tell any player not to have only one type of damage cantrip regardless of what it is, accepting Warlock. Bard and Artificer maybe too. With spell selection in general I also advise to diversify. I certainly agree there are niche spells. I also agree a spell or two is garbage, coughWitchBoltcough. Poison spells are not that bad, but they shouldn't be your only spell type. Have different attack modes as possible, and sometimes all you can do is buff/support others and let them deal with the bad guy directly.

[Luccan]

I always thought Poison Spray should have a chance of conferring the Poisoned condition, but maybe that's too much for a d12 cantrip?

Infestation's rider would be great if it either provoked opportunity attacks or let you pick the direction they move (niche use, but forced movement can help set ups even if it's only 5ft).

[Kane0]

I always thought Poison Spray should have a chance of conferring the Poisoned condition, but maybe that's too much for a d12 cantrip?

Infestation's rider would be great if it either provoked opportunity attacks or let you pick the direction they move (niche use, but forced movement can help set ups even if it's only 5ft).

If you roll an 11 or 12 on a damage die?

Seconded on picking direction

[Tanarii]

If you roll an 11 or 12 on a damage die?
1 or a 2. That way it makes up for an otherwise terrible roll.

[Greywander]

Honestly, a cantrip that inflicted the Poisoned condition might very well be worth it. No damage, just a CON save or be Poisoned for one round. The large number of monsters immune to poison (which almost always includes the Poisoned condition) is balanced out by how debilitating the Poisoned condition is. If they're not immune, then they're going to have a bad time.

[Monster Manuel]

I agree that the rider on infestation is weird. Target gets stung by a swarm of bees, and lurches to the side to avoid it. This reaction strikes me as gamey, and immersion breaking, since it's imposing a choice on the target, but not due to any kind of compulsion or mind effect. Why didn't they just stand there and wave their arms? Or swat at the bugs? Or are we saying that the bugs are actually physically massing up and shoving the target? That's not better. Mechanically, 5 feet of random forced movement is fine for a cantrip rider, it just doesn't make sense for THIS cantrip.

That said, I like it, and here's why: it gives the spell something to do when the target is poison immune. If we change the rider to "imposes the poisoned condition until the end of next turn", you still get hit with the immunity clause. If there was a useful rider that made sense that took effect regardless of whether the damage hit, it makes it much more appealing.

The most logical would be imposing some kind of disadvantage as the swarm blocks the target's vision, but 1 turn blindness is too strong for a cantrip. "Target has disadvantage on attack rolls and skill checks until end of your next turn, due to the painful distraction and disorientation caused by the swarm" gives the same result as the poisoned condition, without actually being poisoned, so immunity doesn't apply. I would word it that way.

[W41Blackr4zr]

I am playing a campaign were i am a Myconid driud (DM helped my make it playable)
my main cantrip is poison spray...we have a running joke that it is the most useless spell ever,
Con saves are quite often high on monsters so it will just be straight out negated.
Poison resistance is one of the most common you'll find, if i was to boost the spell to make it useable i would definitely say it should be AoE (10ft cone sounded good whoever said that)
and the poisoned condition to all who fail their save.

[Damon_Tor]

Many of the creatures who are currently resistant/immune to poison should instead be immune to poison from specific sources.

Yuan-Ti, for example, should be immune to poison from snakes... but with no generalized resistance to poison. Other creatures might have resistance or immunity to poison from non-magic sources.

Also, I would like to see more "fail by X" mechanics in poisons. In the case of Poison Spray, make it so if they fail their save by 5 or more, they are poisoned until the end of your next turn.

[Kane0]

Many of the creatures who are currently resistant/immune to poison should instead be immune to poison from specific sources.

Yuan-Ti, for example, should be immune to poison from snakes... but with no generalized resistance to poison. Other creatures might have resistance or immunity to poison from non-magic sources.

Also, I would like to see more "fail by X" mechanics in poisons. In the case of Poison Spray, make it so if they fail their save by 5 or more, they are poisoned until the end of your next turn.

Agreed on both points. I think ‘fail by x’ works better than applying condition based on your damage roll.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Agreed on both points. I think ‘fail by x’ works better than applying condition based on your damage roll.

I got a lot of good use out of Drow Poison thanks to its fail by X clause so it might have colored my perception of that to be a pretty good idea.

[anthon]

the status effect changes.

when a poison effect is no different from a punch or sword, it lacks the intimate fear that poison can have.

the unknown lingering effect, a mobility status effect, a lost attribute point,

or possible DoT damage.

poison evokes fear because you don't really know which poison hit you and instead of a cure spell, you want the target to feel they need a remove poison spell, kind of like remove curse treats curses.


Even if a spell only did DoT 1 hp/minute for 10 minutes, with a saving throw to see if the poison continues every 10 minutes, it's enough to put fear into the target.

Structurally, poison is a psychological attack. Its a potential Debuff or Deadly.

The increments themselves, like a -2, or half movement, or whatever, these aren't as important as the fear of the unknown.

[HPisBS]

Poison spray- make it a 10 ft cone aoe.

Infestation- change damage to half poison and half piercing. Change to 2d4 damage.


...
So... to give a "poison" cantrip its place, I would make it something like poisoning a blade. An action to add Xd6 poison damage to your next weapon attack means it has some value in preparation for a fight, useful when you cant chose a good enemy, or waiting for disadvantage to go.


...
Also, I would like to see more "fail by X" mechanics in poisons. In the case of Poison Spray, make it so if they fail their save by 5 or more, they are poisoned until the end of your next turn.

I like 'em!

For Infestation, maybe also separate the d4(s) of poison and d4(s) of piercing into separate rolls. ("On a failed save, the creature takes _d4 piercing damage, then it takes _d4 poison damage.") That way, it'd have the added benefit of forcing casters to make 2 concentration saves. That alone would give it a decent niche.

Now... should some kind of Poison Coating cantrip require concentration? That would cut its appeal right back down, even if it's usable on an arrow. An Assassin Rogue or Mercy Monk might want it as a Magic Initiate pick, but few others would care for it. It'd probably be better to just make it be used as part of the attack, like with BB / GFB.


...
poison evokes fear because you don't really know which poison hit you and instead of a cure spell, you want the target to feel they need a remove poison spell, kind of like remove curse treats curses.


Even if a spell only did DoT 1 hp/minute for 10 minutes, with a saving throw to see if the poison continues every 10 minutes, it's enough to put fear into the target.

Structurally, poison is a psychological attack. Its a potential Debuff or Deadly.

The increments themselves, like a -2, or half movement, or whatever, these aren't as important as the fear of the unknown.

I'll also second this sentiment.

It's always bugged me that poison damage was just another one-and-done hit of flavored damage. I know they were going for simplicity with 5e, but poison should be a DoT! (Or at least have some kind of status effect.)

If your poison spells / cantrips did, say, 4d12 damage when cast, then 1/2 of that roll (rounded down) at the start of the target's next turn upon another failed save, then 1/2 of that damage next time, and so on, then poison would be an interesting and fearsome thing!

Something like that would even be enough to counterbalance the immense number of creatures with poison immunity.

[MaxWilson]

Right now, we have two poison-based cantrips: Poison Spray (d12, 10ft, Con save) and Infestation (d6, 30ft, Con save, crappy rider). I don't think I even have to say that both are in a level of terrible on par with True Strike.

So, what would it take for a Poison damage cantrip to be worth it?

Huh? Poison Spray is already a decent druid cantrip--it's just that others are better and you don't get to pick many--whereas True Strike is so bad that even if you bothered to learn it you'd still almost never cast it.

(1) Poison Spray would be worth casting whenever someone else has the enemy pinned in place via opportunity attacks, or you are faster than the enemy and able to stay out of melee range after casting it, as long as the enemy isn't immune to poison.

(2) True Strike on the other hand is hedged in by so many layers of constraints that every time you think of something you want to use it for ("negating ranged disadvantage!", "EK War Magic!", "Landing expensive spells like Plane Shift!") it turns out to be useless for that, too, or at least more expensive than alternatives like Help.

[Aimeryan]

the status effect changes.

when a poison effect is no different from a punch or sword, it lacks the intimate fear that poison can have.

the unknown lingering effect, a mobility status effect, a lost attribute point,

or possible DoT damage.

poison evokes fear because you don't really know which poison hit you and instead of a cure spell, you want the target to feel they need a remove poison spell, kind of like remove curse treats curses.


Even if a spell only did DoT 1 hp/minute for 10 minutes, with a saving throw to see if the poison continues every 10 minutes, it's enough to put fear into the target.

Structurally, poison is a psychological attack. Its a potential Debuff or Deadly.

The increments themselves, like a -2, or half movement, or whatever, these aren't as important as the fear of the unknown.

While I like this as a DM spell, it would be fairly poor as a player spell; few enemies have any existence outside of the players short-lived encounter with them. Why would the players care about how some generic minion (who escaped) feels about this long duration poison? How would they even know? In a creature hunt (like a dragon or a beholder) the players might care about such things with that particular creature, but only if multiple encounters are to be expected.

As a DM spell, it doesn't need to be a cantrip - unexhaustible resources for enemies are rarely important. It could be a level 1 spell. It could be a level 5 spell. It wouldn't really matter as long as it was balanced. Limiting the spell with such a long duration effect to a cantrip would just mean the effect would be really minor (or be way overpowered for the spell level, even if it was really just a DM spell).

~~~

My take, I agree with the 10ft cone; it would have a niche then, even if that niche was quite uncommon (multiple enemies in a 10ft cone, not immune to poison, safe enough to get close, not worth using a spell slot on). Would it be taken in a limit cantrip setup? Maybe.

If you wanted to make it particularly unique; 10ft cone, d4 damage at the start of an affected target's turn until a Con save is made, repeat applications stack damage (all are removed on save). Scales on d4 cantrip progression.

[Kane0]

Poison Spray
Conjuration Cantrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Self (10-foot cone)
Components: V S
Duration: Instantaneous
Classes: Druid, Sorcerer, Warlock, Wizard
A puff of noxious gas projects outwards from your hands. Each creature in a 10-foot cone must make a Constitution saving throw or take 1d12 Poison damage. A creature that fails its saving throw by 5 or more is also Poisoned until the end of your ned turn.
This spell's damage increases by 1d12 when you reach 5th Level (2d12), 11th level (3d12), and 17th level (4d12).

[mistajames]

The unfortunate reality is, any short ranged spell needs to have some pretty serious upsides to be worth casting. Most casters want to be far away from the front lines due to the Concentration mechanic. Doing a scaling 1d12 doesn't cut it. If we throw in the Poisoned condition and a 10' cone, that may be worth taking for some builds.

[heavyfuel]

If we throw in the Poisoned condition and a 10' cone, that may be worth taking for some builds.

That's pretty much what Kane0 did on the post right above your :smallbiggrin: Other people have also suggested something like that.

While I think Kane0's version of Poison spray is pretty good, but I'd also want something more ranged-oriented.

If we are to simply change existing cantrips, I like the suggestion of making Infestation deal half (magical) piercing, half poison damage. 60ft range and 1d6 damage of each type per Tier. I think that alone would make it worth it. No need for Poisoned condition or that weird forced-movement rider