Fitting dnd 5e subclasses into the dnd 4e party roles?

[Rfkannen]

You can make your way through basically any dnd 5e campaign with any party you want. Even if the dm is going super deadly, 4 clerics could solo the tomb of horrors.

However, it can be a lot of fun to have characters that fill entirely different party roles. Combat WILL go more smoothly if you have all your bases covered.

I thought it might be fun to divide all of 5e’s subclasses into the different dnd 4e party roles. I mean, one character from each role will basically ALWAYS guarantee a party that works well together, without much overlap. So it can be a good guide for picking a character that fills what a group needs.


Btw basics of each role:
Controllers deal with damaging a lot of small enemies, positioning, and debuffing.
Defenders are tanks who can defend their allies.
Strikers deal damage.
Leaders heal and buff.

Here's my attempt at what subclasses fit each role; what do you think?




Controller:
Order cleric
Tempest cleric
Glamour Barstow cleric
Wildfire druid
Battlrmaster fighter
Astral self monk
Long death monk
Open hand monk
Conquest padin
Open sea paladin
Aberrant mind sorcerer
Clockwork sorcerers
Divine soul sorcerer
Shadow magic sorcerer
Storm sorcerer
Wild magic sorcerer
Archer sorcerer
Fathomless warlock
Great one warlock
Chronugrry wizard
Graviturgy wizard
Aberration wizard
Conjugation wizard
Divination wizard
Enchantment wizard
Illusion wizard
Necromancy wizard
Transmutation wizard


Leader:
Alchemist artificer
College of creation bard
College of eloquence bard
College of glamor bard
College of lore bard
College of spirits bard
Arcana cleric
Death cleric
Grave cleric
Forge cleric
Grave cleric
Knowledge cleric
Life cleric
Light cleric
Nature cleric
Peace cleric
Tempest cleric
Trickery cleric
Twilight cleric
Dream cleric
Spore cleric
Star cleric
Shepard druid
Battlemaster fighter
Purple dragon knight
Mercy monk
Devotion paladin
Mastermind rogue
Aberrant mind sorcerer
Divine soul sorcerer
Shadow magic sorcerer
Celestial warlock
Abjuration wizard
Divination wizard
Order of scribes

Striker:
Artillerist artificer
Battlerager barbarian
Beast barbarian
Berzerker barbarian
Storm herald barbarian
Totem warrior barbarian
Zealot barbarian
Wild magic barbarian
College of swords bards
Valor bard
Whisper bard
Tempest cleric
Moon druid
Arcane archer fighter
Battlemastrt fighter
Champion fighter
Echo knight fighter
Eldritch knight
Gunslinger fighter
Psi warrior
Rune knight
Samurai fighter
Shadow monk
Ascendant dragon monk
Four elements monk
Kensei monk
Sun soul monk
Vengeance paladin
Oathbreaker paladin
Beast master ranger
Drake Warden Tanger
Fey wanderer ranger
Gloom stalker ranger
Horizon walker ranger
Hunter ranger
Monster slayer ranger
Swam keeper ranger
Arcane trickster rogue
Assassin rogue
Inquisitive rogue
Mastermind rogue
Phantom rogue
Scout rogue
Soul knife rogue
Swashbuckler rogue
Thief rogue
Dragon sorcerer
Storm sorcerer
Wild magic sorcerer
Archer warlock
Celestial warlock
Fathomless sorcerer
Fiend warlock
Genie warlock
Great old one warlock
Thr undead warlock
Undying warlock
Bladesinger warlock
Evocation wizard

Defender:
Armorer artificer
Ancestor barbarian
Twilight cleric
Chevalier fighter
Psi warrior
Redemption paladin
Ancients paladin
Crown paladin
Watcher paladin

[PhoenixPhyre]

I've tried this. It doesn't flow very smoothly in 5e, especially since there's no Defender role (no marking), there are just beefier and less beefy builds. Which can vary at the character (not the subclass) level.

[LudicSavant]

You can make your way through basically any dnd 5e campaign with any party you want. Even if the dm is going super deadly, 4 clerics could solo the tomb of horrors.

However, it can be a lot of fun to have characters that fill entirely different party roles. Combat WILL go more smoothly if you have all your bases covered.

I thought it might be fun to divide all of 5e’s subclasses into the different dnd 4e party roles. I mean, one character from each role will basically ALWAYS guarantee a party that works well together, without much overlap. So it can be a good guide for picking a character that fills what a group needs.


Btw basics of each role:
Controllers deal with damaging a lot of small enemies, positioning, and debuffing.
Defenders are tanks who can defend their allies.
Strikers deal damage.
Leaders heal and buff.

Here's my attempt at what subclasses fit each role; what do you think?




Controller:
Order cleric
Tempest cleric
Glamour Barstow cleric
Wildfire druid
Battlrmaster fighter
Astral self monk
Long death monk
Open hand monk
Conquest padin
Open sea paladin
Aberrant mind sorcerer
Clockwork sorcerers
Divine soul sorcerer
Shadow magic sorcerer
Storm sorcerer
Wild magic sorcerer
Archer sorcerer
Fathomless warlock
Great one warlock
Chronugrry wizard
Graviturgy wizard
Aberration wizard
Conjugation wizard
Divination wizard
Enchantment wizard
Illusion wizard
Necromancy wizard
Transmutation wizard




Leader:
Alchemist artificer
College of creation bard
College of eloquence bard
College of glamor bard
College of lore bard
College of spirits bard
Arcana cleric
Death cleric
Grave cleric
Forge cleric
Grave cleric
Knowledge cleric
Life cleric
Light cleric
Nature cleric
Peace cleric
Tempest cleric
Trickery cleric
Twilight cleric
Dream cleric
Spore cleric
Star cleric
Shepard druid
Battlemaster fighter
Purple dragon knight
Mercy monk
Devotion paladin
Mastermind rogue
Aberrant mind sorcerer
Divine soul sorcerer
Shadow magic sorcerer
Celestial warlock
Abjuration wizard
Divination wizard
Order of scribes




Striker:
Artillerist artificer
Battlerager barbarian
Beast barbarian
Berzerker barbarian
Storm herald barbarian
Totem warrior barbarian
Zealot barbarian
Wild magic barbarian
College of swords bards
Valor bard
Whisper bard
Tempest cleric
Moon druid
Arcane archer fighter
Battlemastrt fighter
Champion fighter
Echo knight fighter
Eldritch knight
Gunslinger fighter
Psi warrior
Rune knight
Samurai fighter
Shadow monk
Ascendant dragon monk
Four elements monk
Kensei monk
Sun soul monk
Vengeance paladin
Oathbreaker paladin
Beast master ranger
Drake Warden Tanger
Fey wanderer ranger
Gloom stalker ranger
Horizon walker ranger
Hunter ranger
Monster slayer ranger
Swam keeper ranger
Arcane trickster rogue
Assassin rogue
Inquisitive rogue
Mastermind rogue
Phantom rogue
Scout rogue
Soul knife rogue
Swashbuckler rogue
Thief rogue
Dragon sorcerer
Storm sorcerer
Wild magic sorcerer
Archer warlock
Celestial warlock
Fathomless sorcerer
Fiend warlock
Genie warlock
Great old one warlock
Thr undead warlock
Undying warlock
Bladesinger warlock
Evocation wizard




Defender:
Armorer artificer
Ancestor barbarian
Twilight cleric
Chevalier fighter
Psi warrior
Drunken master monk
Redemption paladin
Ancients paladin
Crown paladin
Watcher paladin

The problem is that a lot of these subclasses can fit into entirely different 4e party roles depends on how they're built.

[PhoenixPhyre]

The problem is that a lot of these subclasses can fit into entirely different 4e party roles depends on how they're built.

And many don't fit nicely into any unique role for some (many) builds.

Frankly, the "role" concept doesn't have tons of utility in 5e. There's utility in breaking it down further, but then again, 5e is pretty forgiving (IMX) of "odd" party compositions. I had a druid/wizard (plus random giant lizard pet) party that worked well. I had a rogue/wizard/druid/fighter party that worked well, despite the fighter doing just about everything except hitting things with a sharp (or even blunt) object, the wizard being a necromancer who never raised a single dead creature, and the druid being off in lala/random action land about 80% of the time...when she showed up.

[Rfkannen]

I've tried this. It doesn't flow very smoothly in 5e, especially since there's no Defender role (no marking), there are just beefier and less beefy builds. Which can vary at the character (not the subclass) level.

There aren't many defenders, but there are a couple, the ancestor barbarian and the cavalier fighter do it pretty well!


The problem is that a lot of these subclasses can fit into entirely different 4e party roles depends on how they're built.

That is very true, I put sevral subclasses in multiple roles, but really any fighter or barbarian can do defender "okay" with polearm master and sentinal


And many don't fit nicely into any unique role for some (many) builds.

Frankly, the "role" concept doesn't have tons of utility in 5e. There's utility in breaking it down further, but then again, 5e is pretty forgiving (IMX) of "odd" party compositions. I had a druid/wizard (plus random giant lizard pet) party that worked well. I had a rogue/wizard/druid/fighter party that worked well, despite the fighter doing just about everything except hitting things with a sharp (or even blunt) object, the wizard being a necromancer who never raised a single dead creature, and the druid being off in lala/random action land about 80% of the time...when she showed up.

This is true, I've been in parties withought any healer that went great, but I also do have more fun as a pc when everyone has there own niche in play. It can be kind of weird when two pcs do the same basic thing for the party, but one does it better,

[Theodoxus]

And many don't fit nicely into any unique role for some (many) builds.

Frankly, the "role" concept doesn't have tons of utility in 5e. There's utility in breaking it down further, but then again, 5e is pretty forgiving (IMX) of "odd" party compositions. I had a druid/wizard (plus random giant lizard pet) party that worked well. I had a rogue/wizard/druid/fighter party that worked well, despite the fighter doing just about everything except hitting things with a sharp (or even blunt) object, the wizard being a necromancer who never raised a single dead creature, and the druid being off in lala/random action land about 80% of the time...when she showed up.

I've never gamed in Oregon, but man that sounds exactly like a table I played at just before everything shut down.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I've never gamed in Oregon, but man that sounds exactly like a table I played at just before everything shut down.

That particular party was several years ago in Florida as part of a high school club. I got all sorts of wacky groups. Good kids though. Oddly no murder hobos.

[MaxWilson]

Btw basics of each role:
Controllers deal with damaging a lot of small enemies, positioning, and debuffing.
Defenders are tanks who can defend their allies.
Strikers deal damage.
Leaders heal and buff.


I don't really get it. I don't get what makes these particular for roles a compelling way of organizing one's thinking about PC competencies. E.g. Shepherd Druids that flood the battlefield with summons and Bear Spirit are doing all four of these things at once.

Or take a Lyrandar Hexblade Chainlock who summons an Earth Elemental, an Accursed Specter, and a Sprite with a poison bow and then blasts enemies with Agonizing Repelling Eldritch Blast of Lethargy to maximize the number of opportunity attacks enemies will take when they try to move. Striker, defender, or controller? Are those even the right buckets?

When I think about roles it's usually more asking the lines of specific capabilities. A well - balanced party of four might look something like:

3 summoners
3.5 scouts
2.5 healers (2 resurrectors)
3 ranged combat specialists
1.25 grapplers
2 AoE blasters
1 guardian (grant saving throw bonuses, a la paladin aura or bardic inspiration)
1 recon specialist/diviner (not in the subclass sense)
2 wits/faces
1 detective
2 antimagic warriors (can win fights in antimagic zones)

Of course, it may be Tier 3 before all those capabilities come online in a 4-PC party, but it's good to plan ahead.

[LudicSavant]

Frankly, the "role" concept doesn't have tons of utility in 5e.

I think there are absolutely roles worth talking about, as in any teamwork-based game with diverse character options. Just that those roles aren't determined at the point you choose your subclass.

For example, one Lore Bard might be a squishy backliner who focuses entirely on support and doesn't have a single source of direct damage. And another Lore Bard might be an armored frontline tank that locks people down with Warcaster and dares people to hit her through a Cutting Words + Armor of Agathys combo and tosses Fireballs when there's multiple enemies. Lore Bard is just that versatile-in-build.

These characters do fill different roles in a party and it's well worth talking about them -- for example, you may not want everyone in a party to be a squishy backliner who focuses entirely on support and doesn't have any way to actually hurt the enemy.

[paladinn]

Personal opinion: the idea of "roles" in 4e was one of the major drawbacks in the game. Everything in 4e was conceived with "slots", from magic items to the "powers" each class got at each level to the idea of "roles". If you're a fighter, you're a defender; if you're a cleric, you're a leader; etc. If you envision your cleric as a roguish character for a deity of trickery? Tough. You're a leader.

This also lead to some interesting conundrums, as each "power source" (martial, arcane, divine, primal, psionic) should have a class to cover each role. So what was the arcane defender? Oh, that was the swordmage.. which was in the Forgotten Realms guide (so you had to buy a manual even if you weren't adventuring in the Realms). The big puzzle for me was a martial controller. Was there such a thing? Ah, it was an archer ranger. Some of the powers/roles grid concept ended up requiring real leaps in logic.

Tossing, or at least greatly loosening, the "role" concept was one of the best things WotC did with 5e.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I think there are absolutely roles worth talking about, as in any teamwork-based game with diverse character options. Just that those roles aren't determined at the point you choose your subclass.

For example, one Lore Bard might be a squishy backliner who focuses entirely on support and doesn't have a single source of direct damage. And another Lore Bard might be an armored frontline tank that locks people down with Warcaster and dares people to hit her through a Cutting Words + Armor of Agathys combo and tosses Fireballs when there's multiple enemies. Lore Bard is just that versatile-in-build.

These characters do fill different roles in a party and it's well worth talking about them -- for example, you may not want everyone in a party to be a squishy backliner who focuses entirely on support and doesn't have any way to actually hurt the enemy.

I was speaking of the 4e roles there (or the trinity MMO roles). Yes, it's useful to have a spread in competencies. But generally you can't say "you're an X and only (or even dominantly) X". Most adventurers can do multiple things.

Ideally IMO, people would generally make all-rounders. Maybe a 5 out of 10 in most things and an 7 or 8 in a couple, with the specialties spread around. I much prefer parties like that to the "I'm a 10 in this niche but a 2 outside it, while you're a 10 in that niche..."

[JonBeowulf]

This is a really messy thought exercise because, as others have said, the 4e roles don't fit in 5e.

A well-rounded party has folks that can soak up hits, folks that can dish out damage, folks who are skilled in all sorts of things, and folks who can talk their way into/out of any situation. Just about any character class can be built to cover 2 or more of those.