Situational competence

[Greywander]

What would be the best way to mechanically handle a character whose competence at particular things is dependent on circumstances? For example, a character who is normally a bit of a space case, oblivious to their surroundings, but has a background as a soldier giving them good battlefield awareness.

D&D's streamlined skill system doesn't seem designed to handle something this specific. The best I can think of is to give yourself a middling bonus and just RP the difference. In some cases, dice rolls aren't even called for, so you can just roleplay it out however you like, but that won't always be the case. I could see introducing new rules for something like limited proficiency, in the same vein as things like Stonecunning acting like limited expertise. In the specific example above, it could kind of be accounted for with the Alert feat, which doesn't affect your Perception rolls but does prevent you from being surprised in combat.

[Kane0]

Stonecunning is an example as you noted, but there's also Keen Hearing/Keen Smell found on a lot of statblocks which is similar.

Giving advantage, expertise or the ability to not roll below X are all methods you could use within the circumstances it's supposed to operate. Even DM inspiration that can only be used in only that situation might do the trick.

[Segev]

What would be the best way to mechanically handle a character whose competence at particular things is dependent on circumstances? For example, a character who is normally a bit of a space case, oblivious to their surroundings, but has a background as a soldier giving them good battlefield awareness.

D&D's streamlined skill system doesn't seem designed to handle something this specific. The best I can think of is to give yourself a middling bonus and just RP the difference. In some cases, dice rolls aren't even called for, so you can just roleplay it out however you like, but that won't always be the case. I could see introducing new rules for something like limited proficiency, in the same vein as things like Stonecunning acting like limited expertise. In the specific example above, it could kind of be accounted for with the Alert feat, which doesn't affect your Perception rolls but does prevent you from being surprised in combat.

You're near it already. What, SPECIFICALLY, do you want them to do differently "in combat" than they do "not in combat?"

[Greywander]

You're near it already. What, SPECIFICALLY, do you want them to do differently "in combat" than they do "not in combat?"
Here's some out-of-combat, incompetent examples:


The rest of the party: Discussing the secret door they found
My character: "Well anyway we should probably look for an exit. There might be a secret door around here."

My character: Approaches the guy who is obviously X
My character: "Hey could you tell me where I could find X?"

DM: "The passageway opens up into a large cavern. You can see a half-dozen goblins standing guard in groups of twos and threes at various points around the cavern. In the center are wooden cages with the villagers inside."
Party member: "Alright, we found them."
My character: "Great, now we just need to find out where they're keeping the prisoners."

I'd probably limit this to once or twice per session, and seek feedback from the other players to make sure this running gag isn't making the game less enjoyable for them. Something you'll notice is that these sorts of example generally aren't going to call for a roll, but it still feels like the character should have a bonus (or lack thereof) that accurately reflects how oblivious they are.

In combat, the character would be much more aware of both threats as well as anything that can be used tactically, such as hazards or cover. Again, perhaps these aren't going to call for rolls, so I don't really need to worry about getting a bonus, and the Alert feat will also address some of these as well (though until now I wasn't really considering spending an ASI on Alert). But there might be some edge cases, such as noticing an NPC holding a hidden weapon.

If I was to make my own limited proficiency trait, it would probably look something like this:


Battle Awareness
You've spend a lot of time in combat or other dangerous situations. When you make a Wisdom (Perception) check to notice danger or while in combat, you may add your proficiency bonus to that check if you don't already.

Then again, if I take the soldier background, then perhaps my DM would just allow my character to notice things more often under such circumstances, without needing a roll (and easy way to do this might be a circumstantial bonus to passive Perception, just so the DM can better keep track of what it would be if I had a bonus), sort of like a background trait. In fact, this might make more sense since my working idea for a background is that they were fairly low ranking, and drafted rather than a career soldier, and they lost the war so there isn't really much remaining of the army; basically very little of the soldier's existing background feature would apply to me.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

If you take the Lucky feat you can re roll whatever checks seem appropriate for roll playing.

[Segev]

Approaches the guy who is obviously X
My character: "Hey could you tell me where I could find X?"

DM: "The passageway opens up into a large cavern. You can see a half-dozen goblins standing guard in groups of twos and threes at various points around the cavern. In the center are wooden cages with the villagers inside."
Party member: "Alright, we found them."
My character: "Great, now we just need to find out where they're keeping the prisoners."[/INDENT]

I'd probably limit this to once or twice per session, and seek feedback from the other players to make sure this running gag isn't making the game less enjoyable for them. Something you'll notice is that these sorts of example generally aren't going to call for a roll, but it still feels like the character should have a bonus (or lack thereof) that accurately reflects how oblivious they are.

In combat, the character would be much more aware of both threats as well as anything that can be used tactically, such as hazards or cover. Again, perhaps these aren't going to call for rolls, so I don't really need to worry about getting a bonus, and the Alert feat will also address some of these as well (though until now I wasn't really considering spending an ASI on Alert). But there might be some edge cases, such as noticing an NPC holding a hidden weapon.


Make the "ditziness" out of combat a Flaw (as in Ideals, Bonds, and Flaws), and RP it. You can voluntarily say "nah, I won't roll" or "he wouldn't notice" if it's important to do so. This will yield you Inspiration when you play up the flaw appropriately in a way that is not otherwise optimally exploiting your mechanics.

[Greywander]

Make the "ditziness" out of combat a Flaw (as in Ideals, Bonds, and Flaws), and RP it. You can voluntarily say "nah, I won't roll" or "he wouldn't notice" if it's important to do so. This will yield you Inspiration when you play up the flaw appropriately in a way that is not otherwise optimally exploiting your mechanics.
I'm unclear if you're suggesting I still dump WIS or not. If I dump WIS, then maybe I can use inspiration for the times they're suddenly perceptive. Since the character is probably a bit ditzy anyway, it makes sense to dump WIS.

[Segev]

I'm unclear if you're suggesting I still dump WIS or not. If I dump WIS, then maybe I can use inspiration for the times they're suddenly perceptive. Since the character is probably a bit ditzy anyway, it makes sense to dump WIS.

"Flaw: Outside of combat situations, I often miss the obvious. Sometimes tragically and comically at the same time."

You could either dump or pump Wis(Perception) with this. Sounds like you should dump it, and play things up. Just be aware that you'll not notice things like ambushes very well. But Alert would still mean you cannot be surprised.

[Unoriginal]

What would be the best way to mechanically handle a character whose competence at particular things is dependent on circumstances? For example, a character who is normally a bit of a space case, oblivious to their surroundings, but has a background as a soldier giving them good battlefield awareness.

D&D's streamlined skill system doesn't seem designed to handle something this specific. The best I can think of is to give yourself a middling bonus and just RP the difference. In some cases, dice rolls aren't even called for, so you can just roleplay it out however you like, but that won't always be the case. I could see introducing new rules for something like limited proficiency, in the same vein as things like Stonecunning acting like limited expertise. In the specific example above, it could kind of be accounted for with the Alert feat, which doesn't affect your Perception rolls but does prevent you from being surprised in combat.

That kind of things is represented by either advantage, adding the proficiency mod for this specific thing, or the DM going "due to X you can do Y without roll".

[OldTrees1]

For situational competence our group tends to build the character to have good stats in the area but then decide to fail / penalize our rolls outside of the situation.

Very knowledgeable about necromancy? Have Expertise Arcana and Religion
Not know much about other schools or about gods? Decide to not to attempt, decide to fail, or decide to penalize rolls for those questions.

This puts the decision about characterizing the boundaries of the situational competence in the hands of the player in contrast to the GM (granting adv or proficiency) or the dice (RNG rolling high). Since this is mostly about characterization, it makes sense to us to have the player set the bounds.

[Greywander]

I thought about that, but the issue there is that you're spending valuable build resources to be good at that skill only to not fully utilize it. If my character is going to be bad at something, I'd like to be good at something else to balance it out. One option might be to split a full proficiency into two limited proficiencies, allowing me to put one limited proficiency into Perception so that I'm more aware under certain circumstances, but I also still have the other limited proficiency that I can put somewhere else, perhaps another Wisdom skill that I want to be good at sometimes.

[Segev]

I thought about that, but the issue there is that you're spending valuable build resources to be good at that skill only to not fully utilize it. If my character is going to be bad at something, I'd like to be good at something else to balance it out. One option might be to split a full proficiency into two limited proficiencies, allowing me to put one limited proficiency into Perception so that I'm more aware under certain circumstances, but I also still have the other limited proficiency that I can put somewhere else, perhaps another Wisdom skill that I want to be good at sometimes.

Personally, I'd just take Alert and go for high Dex or some other means of buffing your initiative. These combined mean that you're never Surprised and you act first in a fight, which suggests you noticed the important cues and clues that let you react quickly.

Go ahead and make Wisdom a low stat, and don't worry about taking Perception proficiency.

[Greywander]

That sounds like the best way to handle this specific case, although I can think of other feats I'd rather have. One issue with this, though, is that since it's coming from my background, I really should start with it at 1st level, and this character isn't a human or custom lineage. That said, it's really not uncommon to have a character who gets certain features from their class or feats that, according to their backstory, they actually always had (a case of Suddenly Always Knew That (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SuddenlyAlwaysKnewThat)). For example, maybe you're playing an alchemist, but the Alchemist artificer doesn't actually get proficiency with alchemist's tools until 3rd level.

Situations like this are another good reason to give everyone a free feat at 1st level, since it's not that uncommon to have a character concept that should already have a certain ability that is obtained from a feat.

[Segev]

That sounds like the best way to handle this specific case, although I can think of other feats I'd rather have. One issue with this, though, is that since it's coming from my background, I really should start with it at 1st level, and this character isn't a human or custom lineage. That said, it's really not uncommon to have a character who gets certain features from their class or feats that, according to their backstory, they actually always had (a case of Suddenly Always Knew That (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SuddenlyAlwaysKnewThat)). For example, maybe you're playing an alchemist, but the Alchemist artificer doesn't actually get proficiency with alchemist's tools until 3rd level.

Situations like this are another good reason to give everyone a free feat at 1st level, since it's not that uncommon to have a character concept that should already have a certain ability that is obtained from a feat.

What race are you? Maybe there's a racial feature you can trade out for the important bullet point out of Alert.

[DarknessEternal]

No rules needed. This is the RP part of RPG.

[Segev]

No rules needed. This is the RP part of RPG.

He wants to optimize the distribution of character-building resources while RPing. This is good gameplay.

[Greywander]

What race are you? Maybe there's a racial feature you can trade out for the important bullet point out of Alert.
Tiefling, winged variant.

Yeah, I don't think there's anything there. I could switch to a different race, I suppose, but I'd lose the wings, as well as access to Infernal Constitution (I think I've decided to pass on Flames of Phlegethos). Off the top of my head, I can't think of any races with traits that would be relevant for this.

[Segev]

Tiefling, winged variant.

Yeah, I don't think there's anything there. I could switch to a different race, I suppose, but I'd lose the wings, as well as access to Infernal Constitution (I think I've decided to pass on Flames of Phlegethos). Off the top of my head, I can't think of any races with traits that would be relevant for this.

Hm. Class, then, maybe? Which class are you playing?

[Greywander]

Artillerist artificer, so nothing there, either. I do get 14 DEX, though.

Alert will work, though it's definitely not optimal. If I take Alert at 4th level, then I can get an INT half feat (probably Fey Touched) at 8th and Infernal Constitution at 12th. This does mean having 17 INT for levels 1-7 and 18 INT for 8-15. Not optimal, but doable.

I always find both feats and multiclassing to be really agonizing as to when to get what (this also applies to cantrip picks, too). With straight class progression, there's an understanding that you have to wait to get the good stuff and there's nothing you can do about that. But if I'm dipping into two classes, it feels like I should have the 3rd level features from both classes when my character is 3rd level, because I could have the 3rd level features of either class by 3rd level. Likewise, I can plan out all of my feat picks, but it feels like I should be getting all of them at 4th level, because I could get any of them. It's really hard to wait until 12th or 16th level to pick up a defining feat, because it means going most of the campaign without it, if your campaign even lasts that long.

Hmm, now I'm curious why I feel this way, and how the design of the game could be tweaked to change this. I'll admit, I complain about some strange things sometimes, and a lot of them are probably down to personality quirks, but I'm certain I'm not the only who feels this way.

[Kane0]

One option might be to split a full proficiency into two limited proficiencies, allowing me to put one limited proficiency into Perception so that I'm more aware under certain circumstances, but I also still have the other limited proficiency that I can put somewhere else, perhaps another Wisdom skill that I want to be good at sometimes.

That seems perfectly reasonable to me. You’re proficient in say Perception and Insight (creature movement) so you wouldnt get to add prof bonus to notice smells, sounds, etc but you would if someone tries to subtly bring a hand to their weapon.

[Segev]

Artillerist artificer, so nothing there, either. I do get 14 DEX, though.

Alert will work, though it's definitely not optimal. If I take Alert at 4th level, then I can get an INT half feat (probably Fey Touched) at 8th and Infernal Constitution at 12th. This does mean having 17 INT for levels 1-7 and 18 INT for 8-15. Not optimal, but doable.

I always find both feats and multiclassing to be really agonizing as to when to get what (this also applies to cantrip picks, too). With straight class progression, there's an understanding that you have to wait to get the good stuff and there's nothing you can do about that. But if I'm dipping into two classes, it feels like I should have the 3rd level features from both classes when my character is 3rd level, because I could have the 3rd level features of either class by 3rd level. Likewise, I can plan out all of my feat picks, but it feels like I should be getting all of them at 4th level, because I could get any of them. It's really hard to wait until 12th or 16th level to pick up a defining feat, because it means going most of the campaign without it, if your campaign even lasts that long.

Hmm, now I'm curious why I feel this way, and how the design of the game could be tweaked to change this. I'll admit, I complain about some strange things sometimes, and a lot of them are probably down to personality quirks, but I'm certain I'm not the only who feels this way.

Order of acquisition of abilities is a sometimes-painful choice, yes.

You could take guidance as one of your cantrips; the 1d4 would apply to a Dexterity check like Initiative, though admittedly you kind-of have to expect it coming up and it eats Concentration. It would let you cast it for +1d4 to perception in the situations you feel he should have it, though.

Alternatively, you could see if you can talk your DM into letting you trade one Cantrip for the "never surprised" bullet from Alert.

The alarm spell isn't perfect, but also helps alert you in situations where you can prepare.


Maybe see if you can talk your DM into giving everybody an extra feat at level 1?

Finally, and this is a bit screwy, but you could try to talk your DM into letting you trade away 2 of your cantrips and 1 of your first level spell slots, permanently, for the Alert feat. (Essentialy, "negative Artificer Initiate" to "buy" an extra feat.) This will be pretty painful, lacking any cantrips until level 10, and then only 1 until level 14. 2 maximum your whole career.

[Greywander]

I value my cantrips too much. As it is, I'm trying to find a way to fit Magic Initiate in there somewhere. I love my utility cantrips, and artificers don't get a lot of cantrips anyway.

[Droppeddead]

Here's some out-of-combat, incompetent examples:


The rest of the party: Discussing the secret door they found
My character: "Well anyway we should probably look for an exit. There might be a secret door around here."

My character: Approaches the guy who is obviously X
My character: "Hey could you tell me where I could find X?"

DM: "The passageway opens up into a large cavern. You can see a half-dozen goblins standing guard in groups of twos and threes at various points around the cavern. In the center are wooden cages with the villagers inside."
Party member: "Alright, we found them."
My character: "Great, now we just need to find out where they're keeping the prisoners."


What you describe here goes directly against what you said about this character having a "good battlefield awareness" and, honestly, bordering on obliviousness on the edge of silliness. A soldier who has a good battlefield awareness would surely not miss out such and obvious point of attack as a secret door (especially not when someone has pointed out the actual door), nor would they ignore the potential threat that X is or the tactical situation regarding attacking enemies that have potential hostages.

That said, if you want a character that is a bit of a ditz and/or oblivious to their surroundings I'd suggest not getting a high Wisdom score and/or just avoid rolling for things that your character wouldn't notice. Make it a roleplaying thing instead of trying to get situational bonuses when in combat. If your DM hasn't picked up on it already, it could be a good idea to mention this to them. I'm all for DM's allowing players not needing to roll for certain things like "you're a sailor, obviously you know where in the ship X would be".

[AdAstra]

I would argue that battlefield awareness in combat is just as much of an RP thing than obliviousness out of combat is. Even a character with 8 Wisdom (especially if they have high Int, as your character likely does), could conceivably understand things like "okay that position offers good cover and a clear line of retreat, but the approach on the right is well concealed from it, so a flanking action is a serious threat". Your character might not notice things, but they should totally be able to make informed decisions about things that are directly in front of them. Use planning and positioning, things you can control, to supplement a poor Perception bonus. Also be sure to ask plenty of questions about the battlefield when appropriate. Aside from being thematic it can be really helpful to get a better idea of the situation and things you can do.

As for ambushes, it's tough. There's Alert, as has been mentioned, but it's fully plausible that a ditsy character might only get into the zone once the fight's actually started