If Simulacrum was initially made a 9th level spell....

[dmhelp]

Simulacrum as a 9th level spell...

Would still be too good because all those spell slots as scrolls would cost much more.

Would be about right.

Omgwtfbbq you nerfed it too much and it is never worth it. Just use true polymorph to buff a teammate or get a cr 9 monster.

[Asisreo1]

Simulacrum as a 9th level spell...

Would still be too good because all those spell slots as scrolls would cost much more.

Would be about right.

Omgwtfbbq you nerfed it too much and it is never worth it. Just use true polymorph to buff a teammate or get a cr 9 monster.
My theory is that the designers consider it a 9th-level spell unless the DM gives the component out for the caster to get it early. Though, I've always considered it a spell meant only for DMs and not for players to have quick access to.

I'd say they dropped the ball on that one.

But it being a 9th-level spell seems about right for me. Half-HP, unrecoverable slots, once-a-day.

It'd also take up a 9th-level spell known and an extra spell prepared. So yeah, I think that'd be fine.

[OldTrees1]

I forgot it wasn't a 9th level spell.
Sometimes it feels like an epic level spell.

[kingcheesepants]

It definitely feels like a level 9 spell a lot of the time. And if it were actually a level 9 spell would that would get rid of the ability to wish for it which is one of the easiest ways to abuse it, so that's a big plus. On the other hand making it a level 9 spell would mean it's completely unavailable until tier 4 instead of in the middle of tier 3 and that seems like a shame cause it's a really fun spell and having it so late means lots of tables will never see it. Also I would maybe lower the casting time if it was bumped up to level 9. 12 hour casting time means you straight up can't cast it while on adventure, I'd lower it to maybe an hour so that at least you could use it while in the dungeon as it were.

[MaxWilson]

Simulacrum as a 9th level spell...

Would still be too good because all those spell slots as scrolls would cost much more.

Would be about right.

... you nerfed it too much and it is never worth it. Just use true polymorph to buff a teammate or get a cr 9 monster.

It would still be too good because you can use it to bank multiple 9th level spells (and tons of 1st-8th spells too as a fringe benefit). An unlimited number of 9th level spells in fact, at 1000 gp per, but since one 9th level Wish from a Simulacrum can trivially get you 25K in gold that isn't a difficult constraint to overcome.

[LudicSavant]

On the other hand making it a level 9 spell would mean it's completely unavailable until tier 4 instead of in the middle of tier 3 and that seems like a shame cause it's a really fun spell and having it so late means lots of tables will never see it.

Oh for sure. It is a super fun spell for roleplaying. I personally would prefer to see it balanced in tier 3 instead of unavailable until Tier 4.

[jas61292]

The problem with the spell is not its level. Its the fact that they didn't cause the simulacrum to be relatively weak like it was in previous editions. In concept, its a spell about getting a perfect duplicate. Perfect for social stuff and impersonations and the like. In practice, they made it about doubling your character. A bad mistake.

[LudicSavant]

Simulacrum as a 9th level spell...

Would still be too good because all those spell slots as scrolls would cost much more.

Would be about right.

Omgwtfbbq you nerfed it too much and it is never worth it. Just use true polymorph to buff a teammate or get a cr 9 monster.

This would not fix it.

You would still be able to make Simulacrum loops (you'd just need two casters working as a team to do it). And you'd still be able to convert downtime and gold into actions and spell slots at a rate that's frankly a steal.

I think it would be much better to alter the spell to be a healthier design, rather than merely increasing its spell level.

[sambojin]

Just kick it up to 10th level and be done with it (ie: only gods can cast it, or super story mode bosses).

The wizard is still really good without it. They don't need it. At all.

[kingcheesepants]

To be honest while simulacrum is a really great spell, I've not really had too many problems with my players abusing it and while it is super handy it doesn't feel crazy most of the time. The folks I play with at least are reasonable people who understand that doing things like simulacrum chains would be abusing the rules and they don't do it.

The only real time that the simulacrum got on my nerves was an instance of counterspelling a counterspell to counterspell. That is, a bad guy tried to cast a spell, the wizard counterspelled, the bad guy counterspelled the counterspell and the simulacrum counterspelled the counterspell that was counterspelling the first counterspell. And then one DM who was really looking forward to using the cool spell was disappointed cause the bad guy didn't even get a single spell out before getting nova'd to death.

[Kylar0990]

I forgot it wasn't a 9th level spell.
Sometimes it feels like an epic level spell.

I've only ever seen it cast with Wish so in a way it defaults to a 9th level spell because of components and 12hour casting time.

[Asisreo1]

This would not fix it.

You would still be able to make Simulacrum loops (you'd just need two casters working as a team to do it). And you'd still be able to convert downtime and gold into actions and spell slots at a rate that's frankly a steal.

I think it would be much better to alter the spell to be a healthier design, rather than merely increasing its spell level.
Care to explain how this is the case?

[Galithar]

Care to explain how this is the case?

Not Ludic obviously, but if you have two level 17+ casters you could cast Simulacrum with the other caster as the target so that the created simacrum would have it's 9th level slot. Assuming caster 2 had Simulacrum prepared it could then cast it itself.

Now this would still drastically slow the process because you would still have to obey the material and casting time of the spell. With Wish you get to ignore those things. So as stated, down time and gold become infinite Simulacrum.

[Valmark]

Not Ludic obviously, but if you have two level 17+ casters you could cast Simulacrum with the other caster as the target so that the created simacrum would have it's 9th level slot. Assuming caster 2 had Simulacrum prepared it could then cast it itself.

Now this would still drastically slow the process because you would still have to obey the material and casting time of the spell. With Wish you get to ignore those things. So as stated, down time and gold become infinite Simulacrum.

To be honest you could also use Wish this way too. Once you made a Simulacrum of someone with Wish do you really care if the Simulacrum incurs penalties for using Wish unsafely (by mimicking the required 9th level spell)?

[Willie the Duck]

Simulacrum as a 9th level spell...

Would still be too good because all those spell slots as scrolls would cost much more.

Would be about right.

Omgwtfbbq you nerfed it too much and it is never worth it. Just use true polymorph to buff a teammate or get a cr 9 monster.

Given that the spell causes problems in games where scroll purchasing isn't a thing, I don't think this is the solution to the spell's issues.