View Full Version : D&D will increase it's Cadence of Releases
D&D will increase it's Cadence of Releases.
https://mobile.twitter.com/CHofferCBus/status/1364965513579950091
Chris Hoffer was covering Hasbro's Investors meeting where Chris **** mentioned this.
I'm not surprised. I remember the D&D Live Panel with Ray Winnger last year where he was talking about his plans for D&D, more casual products, anthologies to increase their freelancer pool, working on 3 Classic settings, future D&D MtG Crossovers, and I'm thinking that is going to require an increased rate of releases.
So I think we can expect a lot more books and other products from now on.
Unoriginal
2021-02-26, 08:08 AM
D&D will increase it's Cadence of Releases.
https://mobile.twitter.com/CHofferCBus/status/1364965513579950091
Chris Hoffer was covering Hasbro's Investors meeting where Chris **** mentioned this.
I'm not surprised. I remember the D&D Live Panel with Ray Winnger last year where he was talking about his plans for D&D, more casual products, anthologies to increase their freelancer pool, working on 3 Classic settings, future D&D MtG Crossovers, and I'm thinking that is going to require an increased rate of releases.
So I think we can expect a lot more books and other products from now on.
Welp, that's bad news right here.
Let's hope this won't make them ditch the public playtest stage.
Xervous
2021-02-26, 08:12 AM
Welp, that's bad news right here.
Let's hope this won't make them ditch the public playtest stage.
I expect full on kitsch, pandering and fan service. If it sells, why they’re just giving the fans what they want.
EggKookoo
2021-02-26, 08:15 AM
I haven't read the full tweet conversation, but some of this is also non-D&D stuff, right? I mean didn't they announce a Transformers game, a GI Joe game, a Power Rangers game, and so on?
Welp, that's bad news right here.
Let's hope this won't make them ditch the public playtest stage.
Didn't you notice the rapid turn-around stage on the Dhampyr, Hexborn, and Reborn UA?
So there will still be testing, but it will be alot shorter time frames so they can get products out faster.
Bigger pools of Freelancers and hiring even more full time folks is also likely.
They expect WotC to double its profitablity from 2019 to 2023 like it did between 2014-2018. That means way more MtG and D&D products and entirely new WotC products.
They also said the D&D movie starts shooting this Spring and that a D&D TV show is in the works.
I haven't read the full tweet conversation, but some of this is also non-D&D stuff, right? I mean didn't they announce a Transformers game, a GI Joe game, a Power Rangers game, and so on?
The TF, Power Ranger, and GI Joe 5e games were announced before, its Renegade Studios doing them, not WotC.
The tweets were more about how well WotC has done and their plans for expanding things further then the TF, GI Joe, and PR games.
They did mention Universes Beyond, MtG sets of cards set in places like Lord of the Rings and Warhammer 40k, coming next year.
PhantomSoul
2021-02-26, 10:21 AM
Welp, that's bad news right here.
Let's hope this won't make them ditch the public playtest stage.
My thoughts exactly. (Though really, the extent to which everything was playtested in recent publication seems mixed to begin with.)
Didn't you notice the rapid turn-around stage on the Dhampyr, Hexborn, and Reborn UA?
So there will still be testing, but it will be alot shorter time frames so they can get products out faster.
It's really not seeming promising for quality from the looks of things so far, but maybe quantity will at least give inspiration to homebrew!
EggKookoo
2021-02-26, 10:54 AM
They also said the D&D movie starts shooting this Spring and that a D&D TV show is in the works.
The TV show better be a dark gritty remake of the 80s cartoon!
Xervous
2021-02-26, 11:04 AM
The TV show better be a dark gritty remake of the 80s cartoon!
My bet is they aim for something that deals with serious themes but lacks the charm to be endearing. Obligatory praise from critics but panned by audiences.
EggKookoo
2021-02-26, 11:34 AM
My bet is they aim for something that deals with serious themes but lacks the charm to be endearing. Obligatory praise from critics but panned by audiences.
I'm dreading to hear it described as "Game of Thrones meets..."
I'm not looking for a "serious" or "realistic" interpretation of the D&D mythos. I want something that communicates the spirit of the game.
Xervous
2021-02-26, 12:01 PM
I'm dreading to hear it described as "Game of Thrones meets..."
I'm not looking for a "serious" or "realistic" interpretation of the D&D mythos. I want something that communicates the spirit of the game.
Why you see it is GoT, season 7 that is!
Unoriginal
2021-02-26, 03:17 PM
The TV show better be a dark gritty remake of the 80s cartoon!
Hoping for a epic remake of that cartoon. I'd be disappointed if it was only dark and gritty.
I'm not looking for a "serious" or "realistic" interpretation of the D&D mythos. I want something that communicates the spirit of the game.
This, so much.
anthon
2021-02-26, 06:49 PM
I expect full on kitsch, pandering and fan service. If it sells, why they’re just giving the fans what they want.
methinks they will do this instead of making a functional Psion class or restoring the Dark Sun setting.
anthon
2021-02-26, 07:01 PM
I'm dreading to hear it described as "Game of Thrones meets..."
I'm not looking for a "serious" or "realistic" interpretation of the D&D mythos. I want something that communicates the spirit of the game.
which edition?
5e is almost 90% Forgotten Realms rehashed for reasons that discussing is not allowed according to the TOS subsection on politics.
i think when you want to discuss D&D mythos, you gotta go back to AD&D Spelljammer/Ravenloft/Planescape. Those systems took a bigger look at cross over worlds and interpreted them through a unifying lens. This goes back to the awkward publication of the Deities and Demigods, which was banned for copyright, then reprinted with redacted fewer pages as Legends and Lore. The way it was published didn't work correctly because it gave the reader the impression you could have 4-5 different pantheons interacting through the unified mechanic, when the background of each mythos was largely world defining, so you end up with God of Highschool crunchy roll anime. By 3e the rules had changed heavily and some of the old heroes had become gods. Many of the villains too. Over the decades tradition of defaulting other setting rules changes to Forgotten Realms became the popular trend with Wizards of the Coast, to the disconcerted realizations of non realms fans (like fans of dragonlance, dark sun, grey hawk, etc.)
I think what's really sad though, is a lot of amazing settings got umbrella corporationed (microsofted?) into forgotten realms then abandoned whole cloth (oriental adventures and al qadim for instance). Otherwise great universally useful rules sets like Netheril and so on were specific to Realms only. Spellfire rules were extensive but hyper limited to the realms novels and setting.
Then Diablo came along and people had diablo magic items.
honestly, Planescape was the safest bet. But then they did that stupid "lets destroy the factions" adventure and created 3rd edition. This didn't do the Genre of D&D any favors. I watched Lolth and Tiamat rise from minor quasipowers to full on gods, while many favored good guys like Aasimon and Phoenix got nerfed.
Tasha's is an attempt to fan service a desperate desire for mechanical content for players, and i think that desperation led to the Alcholic's Appraisal which basically means when you are desperate and thirsty for something, it tastes a whole lot better than it should.
This pattern is likely to repeat, with glut mechanical buffoonery appearing 1d6+1 products apart from Fan service and pop culture partnership swag.
Theodoxus
2021-02-26, 07:07 PM
Eh, it's not hard to update 2E to 5E, they're pretty similar, really. The Darksun campaign setting ports very easily. Now, if you're wanting new crunch or an expanded setting, yeah, not much help there, sadly.
EggKookoo
2021-02-26, 07:18 PM
which edition?
Personally I don't care, although I would expect if any edition is recognizable in a modern D&D movie it would be 5th.
When I say captures the spirit of the game, I mean I want the story to do things that speak to what it's like to play a tabletop RPG, even if that's not literally happening on the screen. I don't mean it has to work like CR or Dorkness Rising or the like, where we see players and characters independently. It can certainly be entirely within the fiction. What I mean is I'd like the story to unfold in a way closer to how games unfold, as opposed to the conventions and tropes of most narrative adventures. Things like, having two elf main characters without it being a plot point that there are two elves in the cast. Or the central hero being non-human. That the course of the story clearly derives from the decisions of the characters instead of how things are "supposed" to go in such stories. TTRPGs are all about player agency. I'd like a main theme of a D&D movie or tv show to be about character agency.
Some movies have shown this sort of thing. A Knight's Tale is an acceptable example. Pulp Fiction has the kind of "who cares whet the plot is supposed to be, the characters are doing this!" thing that I'm talking about.
Tanarii
2021-02-26, 07:38 PM
If they keep releasing things the quality of Tasha's, it's not going to matter. When everything they make can be had for free by anyone with an internet connection, they need to make people want to give them money so they can keep making more stuff.
Of course, if they charge less, that's more likely. Volume sales of lower quality products for less profit margin per sale is a strategy.
loki_ragnarock
2021-02-26, 07:38 PM
The TV show better be a dark gritty remake of the 80s cartoon!
Didn't they get in trouble for openly debating the morality of outright murdering the antagonist?
Where do you go from there for dark and gritty? Actually doing it? Making Uni eat the bodies?
Sigh. I don't really enjoy the superhero trope of letting the villains come back endlessly, but I'm also getting burnt out on gritty reboots.
Better, I think, to just make something new. Something that apes the framing device of The Princess Bride or The Secret Life of Walter Mitty, perhaps, flipping back and forth between the deeds of derring do from a fellowship of over the top high fantasy heroes and the real group of kids playing in their mom's basement set during the satanic panic of the 80s in season one, following them as they get older through college, careers, starting their families and the pains and joys of growing up.
That would do more capturing the themes of the game. At least to me; using it as a vehicle for exploring friendships.
No need to make it gritty at all. At least, not the real world parts. Over the top cartoon violence on the part of the heroic alter egos might be good for a season, a more mature political thriller in another, reflecting how tastes change over time... or on who's running the sessions this season. Heck, tie it to product placement to sell settings, have someone just straight run a prepublished module; what have you.
That'd be an interesting show to me.
methinks they will do this instead of making a functional Psion class or restoring the Dark Sun setting.
Oh I have no doubt they will restore Darksun, it'd make too amazing and popular an MtG setting for them to resist. Darksun always had some amazing art/visuals, unique creatures/spells/items, ect...,
If fact I would not be surprised to see it next year.
Theodoxus
2021-02-26, 07:42 PM
Sounds a bit like AFK, and I'd be all for that style of show. Really, I just want decent spell effects and not horrible monster CGI. No borrowed 80s tech like every other attempt at a D&D movie has used. And maybe at least 1 or 2 A List actors? Sure, have a budding new actor play the farmboy *** hero ala Mark Hammill, but give me some Vin Diesel as the Paladin and Scarlett Johannsson as the Elven Wizardess - or Artificer, even better! With a big cannon or a mechanical buddy...
Nidgit
2021-02-26, 07:51 PM
Sounds a bit like AFK, and I'd be all for that style of show. Really, I just want decent spell effects and not horrible monster CGI. No borrowed 80s tech like every other attempt at a D&D movie has used. And maybe at least 1 or 2 A List actors? Sure, have a budding new actor play the farmboy *** hero ala Mark Hammill, but give me some Vin Diesel as the Paladin and Scarlett Johannsson as the Elven Wizardess - or Artificer, even better! With a big cannon or a mechanical buddy...
On the topic of Mark Hamill they should absolutely have him play some kind of crazy sorcerer BBEG. He'd do it too.
Tanarii
2021-02-26, 07:56 PM
They won't be able to make a decent D&D movie. Even a TV show would be a stretch. D&D isn't really about telling stories, so it doesn't translate into good books or movies any more than books or movies translate into good sessions of D&D.
Waterdeep Merch
2021-02-26, 08:03 PM
They won't be able to make a decent D&D movie. Even a TV show would be a stretch. D&D isn't really about telling stories, so it doesn't translate into good books or movies any more than books or movies translate into good sessions of D&D.
It's an adaptation of the trappings, really. Just like how the novels, comic books, and even video games can't really capture the spirit of a roleplaying session, neither can a movie. They're not really compatible with one another. But just like those other forms of media, you can absolutely capture the trappings.
I'm not exactly optimistic that they'll make a decent movie, but it's not entirely a fool's errand. So long as they prioritize making a good film over translating D&D to film.
(And thus is my pessimism...)
MrStabby
2021-02-26, 08:16 PM
I think that D&D as a TV show would end up being a lot like some of the Star Trek series. The action is spread broadly amongst the cast, whilst some episodes will be more about one character than others most main characters will be in every episode, there will be a monster of the week with an occasional overarching plot, the double episodes will be the best and Patrick Stewart will be the best thing about it all.
loki_ragnarock
2021-02-26, 08:21 PM
I think that D&D as a TV show would end up being a lot like some of the Star Trek series. The action is spread broadly amongst the cast, whilst some episodes will be more about one character than others most main characters will be in every episode, there will be a monster of the week with an occasional overarching plot, the double episodes will be the best and Patrick Stewart will be the best thing about it all.
I am very rarely tickled pink.
But the tittering that just burst from me unbidden means you managed it.
I'm not exactly optimistic that they'll make a decent movie, but it's not entirely a fool's errand. So long as they prioritize making a good film over translating D&D to film.
The things that make DND enjoyable make for pretty horrible movie material. I could see the dragonlance trilogy making an incredible set of movies, but that’s really the books that make it work. And precisely that epic feel makes it not work that well as a setting.
Faerun or Eberron material would be pretty horrible as a film setting.
MaxWilson
2021-02-26, 08:45 PM
If they keep releasing things the quality of Tasha's, it's not going to matter. When everything they make can be had for free by anyone with an internet connection, they need to make people want to give them money so they can keep making more stuff.
Heh. If they keep making stuff at the same level of quality as Tasha's, https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/5e_Homebrew is going to give WotC a run for its money.
I made that text blue but I'm not really joking. What do people complain about most with homebrew, especially DAndDWiki? The balance, the power creep. Sometimes the blandness too. Tasha's subclasses and magic items were about the level of quality I'd expect from some random homebrew out on the Internet somewhere: wildly inconsistent, occasionally broken.
Eh, it's not hard to update 2E to 5E, they're pretty similar, really. The Darksun campaign setting ports very easily. Now, if you're wanting new crunch or an expanded setting, yeah, not much help there, sadly.
Speaking for myself: I'm tempted to upgrade my 2nd edition Darksun by grafting on rules from GURPS: GULLIVER and GURPS: Martial Arts, while keeping the AD&D magic system and the class/level/HP system intact, but I'm not really tempted to "upgrade" it to 5E because 5E is waaay too complex in all the wrong ways (mental busywork unrelated to the gameworld fiction: arbitrary rules exceptions piled upon special cases piled upon corner cases piled upon jargon).
There are some things 5E does that are genuinely more fun than the out-of-the-box AD&D way, but those are the same things that GURPS: Martial Arts does better than 5E, without 5E's complexity tax. (GURPS is complex but not as a tax.)
PhantomSoul
2021-02-26, 09:03 PM
Heh. If they keep making stuff at the same level of quality as Tasha's, https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/5e_Homebrew is going to give WotC a run for its money.
I made that text blue but I'm not really joking. What do people complain about most with homebrew, especially DAndDWiki? The balance, the power creep. Sometimes the blandness too. Tasha's subclasses and magic items were about the level of quality I'd expect from some random homebrew out on the Internet somewhere: wildly inconsistent, occasionally broken.
I was going to comment on exactly that choice of colour...!
Zilong
2021-02-26, 09:04 PM
Good thing I stopped buying “official” sources after theros
Telok
2021-02-26, 09:22 PM
I'm dreading to hear it described as "Game of Thrones meets..."Scooby Doo...
I'm dreading to hear it described as "Game of Thrones meets..."The Muppets...
I'm dreading to hear it described as "Game of Thrones meets..."Barney...
Hey, this is kind of fun.
Waterdeep Merch
2021-02-26, 09:25 PM
The things that make DND enjoyable make for pretty horrible movie material. I could see the dragonlance trilogy making an incredible set of movies, but that’s really the books that make it work. And precisely that epic feel makes it not work that well as a setting.
Faerun or Eberron material would be pretty horrible as a film setting.
That's why they should avoid trying to make a D&D experience, really, and just focus on making a high fantasy film that happens to use D&D things. Part of the problem (one of many) that the previous D&D movie had was that they actively tried to make the movie like a D&D campaign. It just doesn't work; the audience isn't playing a game, they're watching a movie. I like movies, but it's not the same joy I get from rattling dice at skeletons.
You'll find happy incidents here and there where a cool thing from one works great in another, like how high fantasy can absolutely be a game as well as a film, or how action sequences and monsters are exhilarating in both. But then there's things like experience points and Vancian spell systems.
Well. Unless they're doing a comedy about D&D. Sort of like, well, Order of the Stick. I'd actually have a much higher opinion of something like that.
MaxWilson
2021-02-26, 09:29 PM
Well. Unless they're doing a comedy about D&D. Sort of like, well, Order of the Stick. I'd actually have a much higher opinion of something like that.
Dorkness Rising is surprisingly funny sometimes: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0744YMXH4
jaappleton
2021-02-26, 09:34 PM
I mean... I said to expect more than 3 books a year back in like late 2019 / early 2020, and a few of ya’ll refused to believe me :P
Tanarii
2021-02-26, 09:52 PM
It's an adaptation of the trappings, really. Just like how the novels, comic books, and even video games can't really capture the spirit of a roleplaying session, neither can a movie. They're not really compatible with one another. But just like those other forms of media, you can absolutely capture the trappings.
I'm not exactly optimistic that they'll make a decent movie, but it's not entirely a fool's errand. So long as they prioritize making a good film over translating D&D to film.
(And thus is my pessimism...)
The things that make DND enjoyable make for pretty horrible movie material. I could see the dragonlance trilogy making an incredible set of movies, but that’s really the books that make it work. And precisely that epic feel makes it not work that well as a setting.
Faerun or Eberron material would be pretty horrible as a film setting.
I think the key point is D&D doesn't come with a baked in story, so they will have to make their own then hang D&D trappings on it. And that's where pretty much every previous attempt has failed. The trappings > story.
Dragonlance the movie might work if they didn't stay too true to the source material, they pulled off LoTR and the Hobbit (for a given value of 'pulled off' depending on who you ask). Heck, even though I'd personally puke, they might be able to make a drizzt movie.
Luccan
2021-02-26, 10:17 PM
I mean... I said to expect more than 3 books a year back in like late 2019 / early 2020, and a few of ya’ll refused to believe me :P
Like Cassandra you predicted our doom(?) and were ignored. I cannot accept the horror of more D&D books existing and I hope you'll all join me in completely reversing the dominant opinion for the past 6 years of there not being enough content
Tanarii
2021-02-26, 10:33 PM
Like Cassandra you predicted our doom(?) and were ignored. I cannot accept the horror of more D&D books existing and I hope you'll all join me in completely reversing the dominant opinion for the past 6 years of there not being enough contentI'm lost. Did you actually think that was the dominant opinion and the joke is pretending to want to reverse it, or were you aware that wasn't the dominant opinion and that's the joke?
Luccan
2021-02-27, 12:25 AM
I'm lost. Did you actually think that was the dominant opinion and the joke is pretending to want to reverse it, or were you aware that wasn't the dominant opinion and that's the joke?
I am snarking about the complaint of "too many books", since it really wasn't all that long ago people were complaining about content drought. Though if I were to be more reflective I'd say the people complaining before about dry spells and the people complaining now about the books being doomed for imbalance are probably both a minority.
Tanarii
2021-02-27, 12:57 AM
I am snarking about the complaint of "too many books", since it really wasn't all that long ago people were complaining about content drought. Though if I were to be more reflective I'd say the people complaining before about dry spells and the people complaining now about the books being doomed for imbalance are probably both a minority.
Ha! Probably accurate. :smallamused:
Azuresun
2021-02-27, 04:33 AM
Like Cassandra you predicted our doom(?) and were ignored. I cannot accept the horror of more D&D books existing and I hope you'll all join me in completely reversing the dominant opinion for the past 6 years of there not being enough content
I know, it's kind of mindbending that people are complaining about getting more stuff.
I'd like a main theme of a D&D movie or tv show to be about character agency.
Some movies have shown this sort of thing. A Knight's Tale is an acceptable example. Pulp Fiction has the kind of "who cares whet the plot is supposed to be, the characters are doing this!" thing that I'm talking about.
The Mummy series also strikes me as a good tone to aim for--a bit campy and not taking itself entirely seriously, but not descending into outright farce. Plus, you can spot the moments when the "players" come up with absurd plans and then roll a 20 to pull them off. :smallsmile:
Granitecosmos
2021-02-27, 05:00 AM
I know, it's kind of mindbending that people are complaining about getting more stuff.
If it's just settings, stories and new monsters, I'm all for it. Anything else will likely be PC power creep and yet another book a DM open to all official source books has to be aware of. How bad could it possibly be, you ask? Look at 3.5e for an example. Can it be done well? Yes; and less time between releases points to exactly the opposite of that, as time for playtesting content will very likely suffer for it. I sincerely hope I'll be proven wrong on this by WotC.
Unoriginal
2021-02-27, 06:08 AM
I know, it's kind of mindbending that people are complaining about getting more stuff.
Quantity is not quality, and WotC has demonstrated repeatedly that rushing things does not make a good D&D book.
It's mindbending to me that people forgot that.
jaappleton
2021-02-27, 07:29 AM
Quantity is not quality, and WotC has demonstrated repeatedly that rushing things does not make a good D&D book.
It's mindbending to me that people forgot that.
The horrors of the abundance of splat books from 3.X and 4E are lost on those that didn’t live through it.
WOTCs attitude as this point, right or wrong, is “If you don’t like it, don’t allow it. It’s your table.”
Theodoxus
2021-02-27, 08:43 AM
The horrors of the abundance of splat books from 3.X and 4E are lost on those that didn’t live through it.
WOTCs attitude as this point, right or wrong, is “If you don’t like it, don’t allow it. It’s your table.”
It's not wrong, per se, it just sucks that as a DM, I can't just trust the source material will be of sufficient quality I can just 'plug and play' - and a few of my players are notorious munchkins, so they'll be bleating to want to play the broken combinations.
As for the movie and a show... with the popularity of various internet gaming groups, I think it would be pretty amazing if the Movie was classic fantasy fare, maybe with an opening disposition of it being a roleplaying game with players around a table the dissolves into the fantasy world as the DM talks about the opening scene as The Narrator.
Then, the actual TV show is the same campaign the movie was, but from the perspective of the players, with action/combat using movie montages split in - showing how the action ties to the table top aspect.
It won't happen that way, but man, if it did, going mainstream like that, would make Critical Role's contributions to the genre look pitiful.
EggKookoo
2021-02-27, 09:03 AM
As for the movie and a show... with the popularity of various internet gaming groups, I think it would be pretty amazing if the Movie was classic fantasy fare, maybe with an opening disposition of it being a roleplaying game with players around a table the dissolves into the fantasy world as the DM talks about the opening scene as The Narrator.
Then, the actual TV show is the same campaign the movie was, but from the perspective of the players, with action/combat using movie montages split in - showing how the action ties to the table top aspect.
It won't happen that way, but man, if it did, going mainstream like that, would make Critical Role's contributions to the genre look pitiful.
I wouldn't trust anyone aside from Marvel to pull off something like that.
jaappleton
2021-02-27, 09:04 AM
It's not wrong, per se, it just sucks that as a DM, I can't just trust the source material will be of sufficient quality I can just 'plug and play' - and a few of my players are notorious munchkins, so they'll be bleating to want to play the broken combinations.
I really empathize with this.
As the DM, if you don't allow official material, it can certainly makes you seem like a villain. "I want to play this but DM said no and ruined my fun".
Putting the DM in that position is certainly a bad look by the developers.
MrStabby
2021-02-27, 10:43 AM
I wouldn't trust anyone aside from Marvel to pull off something like that.
The Princess Bride was a similar setup and is quite highly regarded.
I really empathize with this.
As the DM, if you don't allow official material, it can certainly makes you seem like a villain. "I want to play this but DM said no and ruined my fun".
Putting the DM in that position is certainly a bad look by the developers.
Yeah. Setting expectations on caps of what can be used so the DM doesnt have to is important. Given the combinatoric way the number of different combinations grows as options increase the odds of something problematic slipping through is getting quite high.
MoiMagnus
2021-02-27, 11:02 AM
Yeah. Setting expectations on caps of what can be used so the DM doesnt have to is important. Given the combinatoric way the number of different combinations grows as options increase the odds of something problematic slipping through is getting quite high.
That's why I hope WotC will focus on setting books, and keep the same publication rate as previously for "general" ones.
The path of the artificer class (starting in a setting-dependent book, and latter reprinted with some changes in Tasha) is what I hope will be the norm for new classes.
It's much easier for a DM to say no to setting-dependent features (except when they play in the setting itself).
EggKookoo
2021-02-27, 11:19 AM
The Princess Bride was a similar setup and is quite highly regarded.
I was thinking more about the cross-coordination between the movie and the series.
GentlemanVoodoo
2021-02-27, 11:59 AM
I am interested on how they will handle this. Question is in how quick of an interval are they planning to speed up production for this year and beyond without causing product bloat? Or for that matter essentially running out of ideas? There is also the quality of content as some have brought up.
On the movies and tv series, frankly no high hopes. There could be the nostalgia cash grab of doing the old d&d tv series but it will not be a truthful adaptation to the original. 5e is the current system and as with all things it will be used to market this product. D&D movies...yeah. Those have never succeeded no matter what they tried. Even resorting to cheap tactics like using partial nudity in The Book of Vile Darkness couldn't save that flick of which was suppose to be the "edgy" representation of d&d. So no hope in this.
Luccan
2021-02-27, 12:21 PM
The horrors of the abundance of splat books from 3.X and 4E are lost on those that didn’t live through it.
WOTCs attitude as this point, right or wrong, is “If you don’t like it, don’t allow it. It’s your table.”
Unless it really turns into the glut of content of the 3rd edition era, I don't think it'll be that bad. Xanathar's and Tasha's have been the heavily player-focused books and while they've had imbalances, we've yet to see 3.5 levels of books full of spells, feats, and classes that they seem to have just written and printed after maybe one or two passes. Other books this edition have better balanced out player-DM content and I think the result has been much better for the game. I don't doubt there will be some impact due to shortened feedback windows, but I've begun to question how much they were taking that into account anyways. There have been definite instances of "we've decided this is what we're doing anyway".
Unoriginal
2021-02-27, 01:04 PM
Unless it really turns into the glut of content of the 3rd edition era, I don't think it'll be that bad. Xanathar's and Tasha's have been the heavily player-focused books and while they've had imbalances, we've yet to see 3.5 levels of books full of spells, feats, and classes that they seem to have just written and printed after maybe one or two passes. Other books this edition have better balanced out player-DM content and I think the result has been much better for the game. I don't doubt there will be some impact due to shortened feedback windows, but I've begun to question how much they were taking that into account anyways. There have been definite instances of "we've decided this is what we're doing anyway".
We haven't seen that because the cadence so far was reasonable enough that they got the time to develop and re-think their work, even with only in-house feedback.
And even then there are some stuff that feels like "X wrote that in one draft and we needed a few more pages".
If WotC wants to pull off having a faster rythm, they need not only more people, but also to pay a lot more attention to the work both current and new people bring in.
jaappleton
2021-02-27, 01:12 PM
We haven't seen that because the cadence so far was reasonable enough that they got the time to develop and re-think their work, even with only in-house feedback.
And even then there are some stuff that feels like "X wrote that in one draft and we needed a few more pages".
If WotC wants to pull off having a faster rythm, they need not only more people, but also to pay a lot more attention to the work both current and new people bring in.
They've pretty much doubled their team since the start of 2019.
Theodoxus
2021-02-27, 01:33 PM
They've pretty much doubled their team since the start of 2019.
From 3 to 5 or 17 to 30? It makes a difference (and I literally have no idea what the staff is like at WotC).
MrStabby
2021-02-27, 02:13 PM
This could be good.
Not saying it will be, but it could work.
So if the content is limited by the number of staff developing it then more staff are needed.
The more staff WotC have, the more people can see things in internal review and the more peer oversight new content could have.
The more people who contribute the better the chances are of catching egregious power creep or other issues before publication.
Also, the more content is out there, the more content a new class can be benchmarked against and the more comparable abilities there will be.
jaappleton
2021-02-27, 02:51 PM
From 3 to 5 or 17 to 30? It makes a difference (and I literally have no idea what the staff is like at WotC).
I do not know the exact number.
It feels like somewhere around 18 full designers at this point. Not all work on the same things.
Mearls (Yes, he’s still there, and this isn’t the topic to discuss if he should be), Crawford, Dan Dillon, Ben Petrisor are the leads for character option design. I feel like I’m forgetting like.... two important people on this team. Spells, subclasses, feats, etc. And they’re just the leads, not the whole department.
There’s plenty others, like Perkins, who work on more narrative designs like adventure plots.
And there’s a handful of people on year to year contracts. Sometimes the contracts are extended, but not often. They instead just hire new people. They’ll often work on smaller aspects (design four encounters around an arctic theme, for example, and they’ll include that in Frostmaiden) regarding a larger whole.
Forgive me, but I only really pay attention to the character options department.
So 18 people capable of leading an individual project. Whether a subclass, or a list of spell options, a narrative design, etc. And they typically don’t work solo. So when they have something like Tasha’s, it’s no one person. Crawford, Petrisor and Dillon handled the heavy lifting together on those subclasses.
I mean... I said to expect more than 3 books a year back in like late 2019 / early 2020, and a few of ya’ll refused to believe me :P
I didn't read your original comment, but I figured it out later in 2020, during that final Panel of I think D&D live with Ray Winnger and Linda (I think her name was).
He starts talking about future products, 3 classic settings they were currently working on, more MtG D&D crossovers, casual products, but when he said that they were going to start doing adventure anthologies as a training ground to increase their freelancer pool, I figure given that the current pool of freelancers don't get enough work, that meant increasing the amount of books released per year, otherwise what would WotC need with an increased pool of freelancers? There just wouldn't be enough work for them all at the current release rate.
Looks like 5 D&D Books released this year from my count. Here's the dates to look for them:
March 16, 2021
May 18, 2021
July 20, 2021
September 21, 2021
November 16, 2021
They're also working on a Magic: The Gathering Movie, not just a D&D one if anyone cares. M:TG is further out of course.
I assume that the September and November Dates are based on the usual release dates for stuff like the big adventure, but where did the July 20th 2021 date come from? Was it to coincide with the rough timing of the Dungeons and Dragons: Adventures in the Forgotten Realms MtG set?
HPisBS
2021-02-28, 10:53 PM
The Mummy series also strikes me as a good tone to aim for--a bit campy and not taking itself entirely seriously, but not descending into outright farce. Plus, you can spot the moments when the "players" come up with absurd plans and then roll a 20 to pull them off. :smallsmile:
I could totally go for that. :smallbiggrin:
It might even be good enough to let me overlook their injecting politics into everything... if they take a very, very very light hand with that part. (Cuz by now, we all know it's gonna be in there somewhere.)
Vegan Squirrel
2021-02-28, 11:45 PM
I know, as a business, WotC is going to try to make more money out of this edition of D&D. Obviously. And some of their customers absolutely want dozens more books and hundreds more character options. Congrats with that, I truly hope you have a lot of fun playing D&D.
Personally, I can't help but feel that the edition would be better if they stopped now, with maybe another book or two in a couple years after there's time to see what still feels like it's missing. Setting-specific books and adventures are fine; those don't overlap with each other. But Tasha's really showed how niche they're getting with the subclasses, having filled all the iconic and obvious character archetypes already, and the content feels like it's right on that content bloat line already. They're at that point we'll look back on as when the edition was at its best, with a well-developed set of character options, but before the splatbook bloat overtook everything and sank the edition.
Anyway, I know my opinion is not universal, and I respect that other people want the abundance of options they had with 2e, 3.5, 4e, and Pathfinder. I'd personally prefer a game where I can remember all the classes and subclasses without looking anything up, and where very few options would need to be excised from a standard medieval fantasy setting for not fitting the campaign world. The niche characters work better, in my view, when the players and DM work out custom mechanics to fit the character, rather than selecting obscure abilities from a vast portfolio of detailed options.
Well let's try this again. Love when my fingers hit the wrong buttons and erases my replies. Really. /rant
We know we are getting hardcover books in March and May. For the past 6 years we've also gotten new hardback releases in September (always an Adventure book) and November (varies between Setting, Adventure, and Supplemental Rulebooks) mostly likely to boost holiday sales. Besides the DMG in December 2014 they have never released a a hardcover in December, January, or February. Also, they rarely release books one month after another. Usually there's a gap month. It does happen occasionally under special circumstances with things like the Tyranny of Dragons rerelease, the crossover Campaign Setting book Acquisitions Incorporated, and they released Waterdeep: Dungeon of the Madmage (2 months after Dragonheist) the same month as the Ravnica Campaign Setting book.
Anywho, that leaves us Jun-July-August between our May and September releases. So July with a month on each side of it sounds like a good month to me to release something else. The other pattern is that most books from 2015 on get released on the 3rd Tuesday of the month. This July that is the 20th of the month. March or very early April I'd watch out for a UA release. That should be pretty telling.
As a side note it will be interesting if something gets released in the December-January-February time frame if they're going to go up to 6 books a year.
These two posts of mine discuss what I think will be released later this year if your interested and answers why the Feywild Adventure book is most likely showing up in September:
https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24946226&postcount=89
https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24948560&postcount=96
Your logic is sound.
I know, as a business, WotC is going to try to make more money out of this edition of D&D. Obviously. And some of their customers absolutely want dozens more books and hundreds more character options. Congrats with that, I truly hope you have a lot of fun playing D&D.
Personally, I can't help but feel that the edition would be better if they stopped now, with maybe another book or two in a couple years after there's time to see what still feels like it's missing. Setting-specific books and adventures are fine; those don't overlap with each other. But Tasha's really showed how niche they're getting with the subclasses, having filled all the iconic and obvious character archetypes already, and the content feels like it's right on that content bloat line already. They're at that point we'll look back on as when the edition was at its best, with a well-developed set of character options, but before the splatbook bloat overtook everything and sank the edition.
Anyway, I know my opinion is not universal, and I respect that other people want the abundance of options they had with 2e, 3.5, 4e, and Pathfinder. I'd personally prefer a game where I can remember all the classes and subclasses without looking anything up, and where very few options would need to be excised from a standard medieval fantasy setting for not fitting the campaign world. The niche characters work better, in my view, when the players and DM work out custom mechanics to fit the character, rather than selecting obscure abilities from a vast portfolio of detailed options.
increased release rate doesn't mean more XGTE and TCoE, it's mostly going to be more Setting Books, possibly yearly Adventure Anthology books, Casual Products, ect..., general with player option heavy books coming once every few years.
I mean they can crank out tons of Setting books which don't really effect game balance XGTE or even more so TCoE did.
I mean They still have Darksun, Planescape, Spelljammer, Mystara, Dragonlance, Nereth, Birthright, Council of Wurms, Ghostwalk, Greyhawk, to do and MtG Cross overs like Kaldheim, Eldraine, Ikoria, Alara, and subsettings like Kara Tur, Al Qadim, other contients in Eberron/FR/Exandia, ect..., heck you do all those you'll barely have enough a
Subclasses to fill a TCoE style book.
stoutstien
2021-03-01, 08:13 AM
I'm all for more setting books even of I rarely use them in their entirety.
The only stipulations I have:
- I want original artwork.
-I want books that provide material for everyone. Toss in some setting PC options and NPC blocks. ERLW is a good framework. editorial polishing aside.
-go easy of the random tables. I don't judge a book on it thickness so more meat please.
-more tear out maps. I have a new game room wall to cover
- expand on group patron
- go easy on nostalgia. If I just want a plain conversion from an old setting to 5e I can do that myself.
jaappleton
2021-03-01, 08:46 AM
- go easy on nostalgia. If I just want a plain conversion from an old setting to 5e I can do that myself.
This one I especially agree with.
There's no doubt been a massive surge of new players coming into the hobby since 5E's release. I'd be incredibly curious to see the percentage of how many current D&D players have been playing for 5 years or less. Legitimately, I would not be shocked if it was 40-50%.
So the reliance on nostalgia, on these 'classic' settings... I totally understand going back to that well because most of the lore is already written, it simply needs to be modernized. But to return to things simply for the sake of nostalgia... Look at your audience, its the chance to do some new things without being bound to anything just because 'that's how its always been'.
I think they've done a pretty good gob so far of balancing nostalgia settings and totally new ones.
SCAG made sense as the first and early on since Forgotten Realms is basically 5e's default setting. I just wish it was meatier and would have been done in house instead of farmed out. I get it, early on the farmed a lot of Adventure books out too. Probably not realizing how big of hit 5e was going to be after 4th edition facing criticism. The only other classic/nostalgia setting released has been Eberron and that's been pretty positive, and since it was later in 3rd edition many people might have experienced it not to mention it's been well received. Lastly, the only other classic setting getting released soon is Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft, and Ravenloft has already been released (and boxed up and rereleased) for 5e as an Adventure book, so new players that came along in 5e should be at least passingly familiar with it to start out.
Ravnica, Acquisitions Incorporated, Wildemount, and Theros still outnumber older stuff (or equal them if you don't consider AI a true setting book), and if they're upping their release number I wouldn't doubt they'll keep releasing new settings along side some of the classic ones.
The SCAG doesn't count, it was a regional book for the Swordcoast. It was insufficient for the Forgotten Realms. It did have more coherent lore then MTOFs, but it was too small. We needed a Forgotten Realms World Book before focusing on Regional setting books.
I know, as a business, WotC is going to try to make more money out of this edition of D&D. Obviously. And some of their customers absolutely want dozens more books and hundreds more character options. Congrats with that, I truly hope you have a lot of fun playing D&D.
Personally, I can't help but feel that the edition would be better if they stopped now, with maybe another book or two in a couple years after there's time to see what still feels like it's missing. Setting-specific books and adventures are fine; those don't overlap with each other. But Tasha's really showed how niche they're getting with the subclasses, having filled all the iconic and obvious character archetypes already, and the content feels like it's right on that content bloat line already. They're at that point we'll look back on as when the edition was at its best, with a well-developed set of character options, but before the splatbook bloat overtook everything and sank the edition.
Anyway, I know my opinion is not universal, and I respect that other people want the abundance of options they had with 2e, 3.5, 4e, and Pathfinder. I'd personally prefer a game where I can remember all the classes and subclasses without looking anything up, and where very few options would need to be excised from a standard medieval fantasy setting for not fitting the campaign world. The niche characters work better, in my view, when the players and DM work out custom mechanics to fit the character, rather than selecting obscure abilities from a vast portfolio of detailed options.
It's more setting lore I want more of then subclasses, so more Campaign Setting books and more novels again.
Definitely. Instead of the Sword Coast at least do all of Faerun and go back and do the other major areas later. And instead of 159 pages make it like 320 pages like Eberron, which only details a part of the world. Same thing with Wildemount and it was 304 pages. I use my own settings, but like many I imagine setting books are still valuable to mine ideas and get perspective on different settings to help build and improve your own. It almost feels like they wish they had a do over with SCAG. Hopefully they figure it out and do it right. Maybe they should even include ole Ed Greenwood in it. If Eberron can have Keith Baker and Wildemount has Matt Mercer, seems like the thing to do.
All the setting books (sans SCAG of which many were rewritten elsewhere) only have 2-3 subclasses in them, so that should work. They need to care with novels though and not fall into the trap they did with 2nd Edition with ramping up and putting out so many supplements, books, computer games, and hundreds of books too. Profits and quality of material both start to suffer after awhile.
Even just Faerun is bigger and more complex say Wildemount for example, so I could see the book being the same size as the Monster Manual, which is 352 pages.
Side note: this is just speculation on my part, but I think they will ask Ed to do some or all of the web fiction for the MtG Forgotten Realms set.
Vegan Squirrel
2021-03-01, 11:23 PM
If this just means they publish a lot more setting books, that's fine by me. I'll go on blissfully ignoring them. I do want you campaign setting fans to have fun toys to play with. But I don't have to feel bad about saying no to setting-specific content, so win-win. :smallbiggrin:
I've never understood the appeal of published campaign settings, but then worldbuilding's half the fun of DMing to me. On the player side, I cringe at the thought of the reading required to play in a big, unfamiliar published campaign setting like the Realms.
More monster books (or DM-facing books, generally) would be welcome. Not necessary, but welcome.
I wonder when the July book will be announced. Maybe in April or May.
Tanarii
2021-03-02, 02:29 PM
Responding to a point from another thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24952459&postcount=106), my response really belongs here:
Absolutely too much splat was the reason for the release of a new edition, in every singe case except AD&D, which was because of a lawsuit. But even for AD&D it was needed to consolidate too much splat (in Strategic review, multiple books, etc).
Wait was that actually the reason? There is a much cheaper way to reduce the amount of splat. You can just have the users pick & choose which splat they want to include. Maybe even release recommended bundle lists.
A new edition means you can make changes that are not backwards compatible. That might be a more plausible explanation.
Of course the most plausible explanation is to print more $.
Too much splat stagnates the game. A new edition consolidates & simplifies rules, takes the best innovations from the end of the last edition, and resets the base rules to a small useable amount so new players are attracted to the game again, creating sales through growth, which is the best way for the game to make money.
5e is probably not growing much at the moment because of lockdowns. Or at least, if it's growing it's probably less than before. Before it was growing very fast for a long time, so too much splat was a real danger to the growth curve. If it's slowed down, this is certainly the time for them to start spinning up splat output for a few years. Then they can use the trained teams to start the next edition. Business wise, it makes some sense, as a 3-5 year plan.
Doesn't mean I like it though. :smallamused:
OldTrees1
2021-03-02, 03:08 PM
Responding to a point from another thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24952459&postcount=106), my response really belongs here:
Doesn't mean I like it though. :smallamused:
That is a interesting a plausible theory for how to use splat speed.
Thank you for elaborating, and on knowing to move it to this thread.
Responding to a point from another thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24952459&postcount=106), my response really belongs here:
Too much splat stagnates the game. A new edition consolidates & simplifies rules, takes the best innovations from the end of the last edition, and resets the base rules to a small useable amount so new players are attracted to the game again, creating sales through growth, which is the best way for the game to make money.
5e is probably not growing much at the moment because of lockdowns. Or at least, if it's growing it's probably less than before. Before it was growing very fast for a long time, so too much splat was a real danger to the growth curve. If it's slowed down, this is certainly the time for them to start spinning up splat output for a few years. Then they can use the trained teams to start the next edition. Business wise, it makes some sense, as a 3-5 year plan.
Doesn't mean I like it though. :smallamused:
Actually the pandemic has caused D&D sales to skyrocket, same with MtG. There is a reason why WotC has gotten so much attention and support all of a sudden from the parent company.
It is also a reason why both MtG and D&D feel confident enough to increase the amount and types of products they are producing yearly. Its growing rapidly even in the pandemic with all indicators being growth will continue for years to come.
TrueAlphaGamer
2021-03-02, 08:44 PM
It's more setting lore I want more of then subclasses, so more Campaign Setting books and more novels again.
Novels? By who? I thought most of the writers were panned.
Setting lore I couldn't care less about, honestly. I think a lot of people (myself among them) generally prefer to craft their own settings and adventures. Probably something to do with the type of bookish nerd the game tends to attract. Unless the new setting is something that really breaks the Western fantasy mold (but still keeps the theme of medieval tech) like Dark Sun or Oriental Adventures, I'm probably gonna sleep on it.
Luccan
2021-03-02, 09:25 PM
Novels? By who? I thought most of the writers were panned.
Setting lore I couldn't care less about, honestly. I think a lot of people (myself among them) generally prefer to craft their own settings and adventures. Probably something to do with the type of bookish nerd the game tends to attract. Unless the new setting is something that really breaks the Western fantasy mold (but still keeps the theme of medieval tech) like Dark Sun or Oriental Adventures, I'm probably gonna sleep on it.
There are some people that still really love Dragonlance and Drizzt. I don't know of any popular D&D novels beyond that, but the DL writers resolved their lawsuit with WotC and are back to writing a new series.
Novels? By who? I thought most of the writers were panned.
Setting lore I couldn't care less about, honestly. I think a lot of people (myself among them) generally prefer to craft their own settings and adventures. Probably something to do with the type of bookish nerd the game tends to attract. Unless the new setting is something that really breaks the Western fantasy mold (but still keeps the theme of medieval tech) like Dark Sun or Oriental Adventures, I'm probably gonna sleep on it.
Where did you get an like that?
The Novels from what I hear outsold the rpg, why do you think there are so many of them?
There are plenty of popular FR writers, Ed Greenwood, Erin M Evans, Paul S Kemp, Jeff Grubb, ect...
MaxWilson
2021-03-02, 09:53 PM
Where did you get an like that?
The Novels from what I hear outsold the rpg, why do you think there are so many of them?
There are plenty of popular FR writers, Ed Greenwood, Erin M Evans, Paul S Kemp, Jeff Grubb, ect...
The novels (or at least the setting as a vehicle for Ed Greenwood's stories) also predate the RPG adaptation of the setting (similar to Adventures In Middle Earth). This explains so much about the Forgotten Realms IMO--the D&D ruleset is not native to the setting any more than it is to Harry Potter!
The novels (or at least the setting as a vehicle for Ed Greenwood's stories) also predate the RPG adaptation of the setting (similar to Adventures In Middle Earth). This explains so much about the Forgotten Realms IMO--the D&D ruleset is not native to the setting any more than it is to Harry Potter!
IMHO this is one of the reasons why the D&D movie should have been marketed as a Forgotten Realms Movie, this mentality would help avoid the mistakes of past D&D movies. D&D is a rule set, FR is actual setting with lore and its own kind of stories influenced by D&D, but it has so many none D&D rules products that its its own brand.
Its also why removing The Forgotten Realms labels from FR products was a mistake.
It was announced today that Hidden Path Entertainment is working on an open-world RPG version of D&D.
So more computer games along with more novels (Dragonlance in July) are going to be released as well as D&D 5e material.
I look forward to more details emerging. Hopefully it will be turned based.
MaxWilson
2021-03-03, 09:19 PM
IMHO this is one of the reasons why the D&D movie should have been marketed as a Forgotten Realms Movie, this mentality would help avoid the mistakes of past D&D movies. D&D is a rule set, FR is actual setting with lore and its own kind of stories influenced by D&D, but it has so many none D&D rules products that its its own brand.
Its also why removing The Forgotten Realms labels from FR products was a mistake.
Totally agree. It's also one of the reasons GURPS struggles for mindshare--people develop emotional attachments to settings (Middle Earth) more than rulesets. Can you imagine someone trying to make "a GURPS movie"? I can't. Can you imagine someone trying to make a GURPS adaptation of Harry Potter, or Guardians of the Galaxy? I can too! Setting first, rules after.
Therefore a "D&D movie" per se is a terrible idea. I don't have any good ideas for alternatives to strengthen the D&D brand though, except maybe reviving Dragonlance. (I do think it's important to have "Dragon" in the name.) But a D&D movie, per se, is at best a Hail Mary and at worst a complete waste of hundreds of millions of dollars.
Maybe the best strategy is give up on movies and monetize an MMORPG instead. Same basic experience as 5E, but a vastly expanded user base that scales with available hardware budget instead of number of humans interested in DMing. Keep the brands separate (e.g. "Iron Dragon" for online play vs. "Dungeons and Dragons" for the TTRPG) and use the TTRPG experience to drive design but the MMORPG version to drive scalable revenue.
Agreed about the FR label.
PhoenixPhyre
2021-03-03, 09:25 PM
IMHO this is one of the reasons why the D&D movie should have been marketed as a Forgotten Realms Movie, this mentality would help avoid the mistakes of past D&D movies. D&D is a rule set, FR is actual setting with lore and its own kind of stories influenced by D&D, but it has so many none D&D rules products that its its own brand.
Its also why removing The Forgotten Realms labels from FR products was a mistake.
I mostly agree. The game doesn't translate well to the screen, but the worlds can. And that lets you use film conventions instead of TTRPG ones.
MaxWilson
2021-03-03, 09:33 PM
I mostly agree. The game doesn't translate well to the screen, but the worlds can. And that lets you use film conventions instead of TTRPG ones.
To what end though? Let's say the movie Dark Sun: The Crimson Legion takes off and becomes wildly popular, a la Guardians of the Galaxy. What does Hasbro/WotC gain from this?
(1) They now can sell Crimson Legion merchandise.
(2) They can make a Crimson Legion game without paying merchandising fees. They can sell more Dark Sun books.
Is that really any different from or better than building a successful movie franchise from ground zero, or adapting one from a novel (or set of comic books), and just licensing the IP? Either way it probably doesn't really strengthen the D&D brand per se, it just strengthens the Dark Sun brand. What is the D&D brand really bringing to the table here, in terms of making a better or more popular movie?
PhantomSoul
2021-03-03, 09:48 PM
Is that really any different from or better than building a successful movie franchise from ground zero, or adapting one from a novel (or set of comic books), and just licensing the IP? Either way it probably doesn't really strengthen the D&D brand per se, it just strengthens the Dark Sun brand. What is the D&D brand really bringing to the table here, in terms of making a better or more popular movie?
I guess they could make cool-looking implementations of spells from D&D or, uh, make martials look cooler (creative license? :P). But really, I think it's that we'll see those short and long rests with 6-8 encounters per long rest on average to get some dramatic resource management excitement! I'm eager for health bars à la TierZoo in the parody of the movie though.
MaxWilson
2021-03-04, 12:34 AM
Maybe they should make a movie about two iconic D&D characters battling to the death: Aleena vs. Bargle.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-9pzi_a_FgGo/VdqrK6_iL7I/AAAAAAAABtk/XPXXmrfQnIs/s1600/Bargle_Aleena.jpg
Luccan
2021-03-04, 12:36 AM
Honestly, if they really put the effort into it, I just hope it will at least be a glorious disaster. I mean, mostly I hope we get something surprisingly good, but if it's not gonna be that at least make it something enjoyably bad.
I actually think you could make a "generic D&D" film if you treated like a fantasy heist movie focused on, you know, dungeon delving for treasure. But that's probably more niche than WotC and Hasbro are willing to go.
loki_ragnarock
2021-03-04, 02:04 AM
Novels? By who? I thought most of the writers were panned.
Setting lore I couldn't care less about, honestly. I think a lot of people (myself among them) generally prefer to craft their own settings and adventures. Probably something to do with the type of bookish nerd the game tends to attract. Unless the new setting is something that really breaks the Western fantasy mold (but still keeps the theme of medieval tech) like Dark Sun or Oriental Adventures, I'm probably gonna sleep on it.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/545098.Pages_of_Pain
I once had a hardback copy of this that I let a friend borrow... and now I no longer have a copy. Thus I haven't reread it, but it was actually pretty well put together story. Which was a bit surprising, because I expect virtually all genre fiction to be terrible; it's part of why I love it so much. Troy Denning, who has a catalogue where he churned out volumes of books for Star Wars, Halo, and Kim Possible. In addition to the entire pile of fiction he made for TSR. You could probably stack his paperbacks to the ceiling of the room you're reading this in. And if you're outside, probably it would just be a alot of books. But for a career that seems to be about drawing inside the lines, he put together at least one story that actually succeeded in grabbing my attention.
If you're into licensed novels... you could well have come across him. And if you're not into it... look, if you can't get behind a book where Duncan Macleod of the Clan Macleod basically solves the Israeli/Palestinian crisis in a little less than two hundred pages, then clearly you are most people. If you can't find joy reading the novelization of Harry and the Hendersons, then maybe your life was better spent than mine. I'd even go out on a limb and say probably better spent than mine. He didn't write those, but he probably could have with a different agent.
I'm just saying, my bookshelf is weird and is a perfect example of how literacy doesn't inherently make people tasteful. Basically, I read garbage, dude. Straight garbage. I am the trash panda of the literati, and I probably have the equivalent of reading rabies. I own a copy of the novelization of Rambo: First Blood, Part II. And reading it was a special joy.
So when I tell you that I got more time thinking out of Pages of Pain than I did out of To Kill A Mockingbird or The Red Badge of Courage, that is not necessarily a statement about inherent quality of any of the mentioned titles.
Totally agree. It's also one of the reasons GURPS struggles for mindshare--people develop emotional attachments to settings (Middle Earth) more than rulesets. Can you imagine someone trying to make "a GURPS movie"? I can't. Can you imagine someone trying to make a GURPS adaptation of Harry Potter, Guardians if the Galaxy? I can too! Setting first, rules after.
Therefore a "D&D movie" per se is a terrible idea. I don't have any good ideas for alternatives to strengthen the D&D brand though, except maybe reviving Dragonlance. (I do think it's important to have "Dragon" in the name.) But a D&D movie, per se, is at best a Hail Mary and at worst a complete waste of hundreds of millions of dollars.
Maybe the best strategy is give up on movies and monetize an MMORPG instead. Same basic experience as 5E, but a vastly expanded user base that scales with available hardware budget instead of number of humans interested in DMing. Keep the brands separate (e.g. "Iron Dragon" for online play vs. "Dungeons and Dragons" for the TTRPG) and use the TTRPG experience to drive design but the MMORPG version to drive scalable revenue.
Agreed about the FR label.
Exactly. Focus on what makes FR great for stories, like in the novels, which is influenced by, but trans the rule set.
MrStabby
2021-03-04, 06:20 AM
I know, as a business, WotC is going to try to make more money out of this edition of D&D. Obviously. And some of their customers absolutely want dozens more books and hundreds more character options. Congrats with that, I truly hope you have a lot of fun playing D&D.
Personally, I can't help but feel that the edition would be better if they stopped now, with maybe another book or two in a couple years after there's time to see what still feels like it's missing. Setting-specific books and adventures are fine; those don't overlap with each other. But Tasha's really showed how niche they're getting with the subclasses, having filled all the iconic and obvious character archetypes already, and the content feels like it's right on that content bloat line already. They're at that point we'll look back on as when the edition was at its best, with a well-developed set of character options, but before the splatbook bloat overtook everything and sank the edition.
Anyway, I know my opinion is not universal, and I respect that other people want the abundance of options they had with 2e, 3.5, 4e, and Pathfinder. I'd personally prefer a game where I can remember all the classes and subclasses without looking anything up, and where very few options would need to be excised from a standard medieval fantasy setting for not fitting the campaign world. The niche characters work better, in my view, when the players and DM work out custom mechanics to fit the character, rather than selecting obscure abilities from a vast portfolio of detailed options.
I know I shouldn't be, but I think I would be resentful that there is so much new, niche content but none of the stuff I actually want and want to play with. It kind of hurts to feel I won't personally get want because they gave out enough stuff to others.
DwarfFighter
2021-03-04, 06:36 AM
Alternative title:
D&D will increase its CR.
-DF
DwarfFighter
2021-03-04, 07:02 AM
Therefore a "D&D movie" per se is a terrible idea. I don't have any good ideas for alternatives to strengthen the D&D brand though, except maybe reviving Dragonlance. (I do think it's important to have "Dragon" in the name.) But a D&D movie, per se, is at best a Hail Mary and at worst a complete waste of hundreds of millions of dollars.
I agree. How is one going to make a fantasy movie that doesn't brand itself with an established setting? The path of least effort is making some sort of standard Hero's Journey variant that fits into any fantasy genre but builds on none. If you're going to make the D&D movie special, then it has to stand out with compelling characters and unique setting.
And I also disagree: The new D&D movie is going to have to push the brand "D&D" at the front: People have heard of D&D and have an idea of what it's about, but only people already "in the know" are going to find the settings of Forgotten Reals, Dark Sun or Planescape to be appealing enough to draw them in. And while it is good to flatter the fanbase, a D&D movie has got to be about drawing in more customers. And that means advertising the D&D logo big-time.
I am however curious to see if they are brave enough to present D&D for what it is: A game of the imagination. Will there be some acknowledgment that the characters that are fighting monsters and dragons on screen are fictional characters in a fantasy world, played by real people in the real world?
-DF
Theodoxus
2021-03-04, 08:19 AM
I'm not so sure building on an established setting will be a wise move either. Say they pick Eberron. How many non-gamers are going to see the setting and be all 'ohh, this is nice, I'd like to live there'. A few, sure, but the vast majority are just going to see a setting like Pandora or Tattooine - it's just a place where the story takes place.
However, how many folks who've played in, read about and LOVE Eberron are going to pan it, nitpick every little piece of not-lore and general gaffs (StarBucks cup, anyone?)
Look at established settings turned into movies/tv serials. Story has to be greater than setting.
The best thing WotC/Hasbro could do would be create an entire setting out of whole cloth and do a massive media blitz with tie-in setting books, a new 'cool rule' for the setting and make bank on the flood of new players wanting to play the cute not-elf new race or the wickedly powerful not-Wizard.
Snails
2021-03-04, 11:44 AM
They won't be able to make a decent D&D movie. Even a TV show would be a stretch. D&D isn't really about telling stories, so it doesn't translate into good books or movies any more than books or movies translate into good sessions of D&D.
It is not impossible.
But there is nothing, absolutely zero about what we players love about D&D in terms of playing experience that translates into a significant positive in terms of writing a script that can be made into a genuinely good film. There there is little point in Hollywood making such a movie, rather than starting from scratch,...except to take advantage of the coffers and marketing budget of Hasbro. Milking Hasbro is not a bad thing in itself, but it does not get the project off on the best footing.
That said, the 2000 film did not have to be bad. It could easily have been a decent B film, as it had enough budget and acting talent involved. But they decided to make it a (fan service) dragons and (fan service) dungeons movie and (fan service) rehash other movies, rather than write a good script first and be willing to throw out most game material. (Did we really need a cheesy appearance of a beholder just because it would make for a weird guard dog?)
But if you want to see a half decent "D&Dish" movie, go to Amazon Prime Video and watch a couple Mythica movies. It just shows it is possible to do this genre and accomplish "okay" without a lot of effort. (I do not really recommend watching the whole series, as it starts feeling predictable very quickly.)
Tanarii
2021-03-04, 11:57 AM
(Did we really need a cheesy appearance of a beholder just because it would make for a weird guard dog?)
I mean, Big Trouble in Little China did it, so clearly yes!
But you know, that was done well and turned out awesome. :smallamused:
I'm not so sure building on an established setting will be a wise move either. Say they pick Eberron. How many non-gamers are going to see the setting and be all 'ohh, this is nice, I'd like to live there'. A few, sure, but the vast majority are just going to see a setting like Pandora or Tattooine - it's just a place where the story takes place.
However, how many folks who've played in, read about and LOVE Eberron are going to pan it, nitpick every little piece of not-lore and general gaffs (StarBucks cup, anyone?)
Look at established settings turned into movies/tv serials. Story has to be greater than setting.
The best thing WotC/Hasbro could do would be create an entire setting out of whole cloth and do a massive media blitz with tie-in setting books, a new 'cool rule' for the setting and make bank on the flood of new players wanting to play the cute not-elf new race or the wickedly powerful not-Wizard.
They tried that with previous movies, it didn't work out very well. Successful established settings are successful and well loved for a reason.
Snails
2021-03-04, 12:13 PM
I'm not so sure building on an established setting will be a wise move either. Say they pick Eberron. How many non-gamers are going to see the setting and be all 'ohh, this is nice, I'd like to live there'. A few, sure, but the vast majority are just going to see a setting like Pandora or Tattooine - it's just a place where the story takes place.
However, how many folks who've played in, read about and LOVE Eberron are going to pan it, nitpick every little piece of not-lore and general gaffs (StarBucks cup, anyone?)
Look at established settings turned into movies/tv serials. Story has to be greater than setting.
The best thing WotC/Hasbro could do would be create an entire setting out of whole cloth and do a massive media blitz with tie-in setting books, a new 'cool rule' for the setting and make bank on the flood of new players wanting to play the cute not-elf new race or the wickedly powerful not-Wizard.
This.
Start from scratch. If they use an already existing D&D setting, they get a pile of stuff, but most of it will need to be thrown out and altered, and the D&D hardcore fans are going to complain more than praise.
This is nothing about a guy with white hair, jet black skin, and wielding two swords that tells your average movie goer "oh this ought to be good!" No, they are going to think, "oh, this is extra weird...but I might like it anyway..."
Eberron. Dark Sun. Same thing. The exotic feel that makes for great gaming is not really a plus for kicking off a movie series.
DwarfFighter
2021-03-04, 12:48 PM
(...good points...)
Snails was second my favorite character from D&D 2000 movie.
After the dwarf, of course. Nobody beats the dwarf fighter.
-DF
MaxWilson
2021-03-04, 01:31 PM
I agree. How is one going to make a fantasy movie that doesn't brand itself with an established setting? The path of least effort is making some sort of standard Hero's Journey variant that fits into any fantasy genre but builds on none. If you're going to make the D&D movie special, then it has to stand out with compelling characters and unique setting.
And I also disagree: The new D&D movie is going to have to push the brand "D&D" at the front: People have heard of D&D and have an idea of what it's about, but only people already "in the know" are going to find the settings of Forgotten Reals, Dark Sun or Planescape to be appealing enough to draw them in. And while it is good to flatter the fanbase, a D&D movie has got to be about drawing in more customers. And that means advertising the D&D logo big-time.
I am however curious to see if they are brave enough to present D&D for what it is: A game of the imagination. Will there be some acknowledgment that the characters that are fighting monsters and dragons on screen are fictional characters in a fantasy world, played by real people in the real world?
-DF
I wonder if you could do a "Dungeons and Dragons: the Movie" a la Clue: The Movie, where they convey some of what the game experience is like without explicitly acknowledging that it's a game, just by filming multiple "that is how it could have happened" endings?
E.g. the first twenty minutes or so is a straightforward heroic fantasy where the characters make good choices and straightforwardly defeat a villain by working together as a group. Cut to some text: "At least, that's how it could have happened...". Then show a crucial but plausible decision by one of the characters, e.g. to prioritize impressing a love interest and looking good above defeating the threat, leading to a blunder, and now there's ten minutes showing how that blunder makes victory much more grim and costly. Finally, more text: "But this is how it really happened, because [crucial character from the previous segments] wasn't there that day..." and the last 60 minutes of the movie is a glorious disaster because the Paladin was gone and the wizard got Charmed into nuking the party with a Fireball.
The tone wouldn't be farcical but maybe similar to Edge of Tomorrow/Live-Die-Repeat: action/adventure, but with an awareness of its own inherent comedy.
But there is nothing, absolutely zero about what we players love about D&D in terms of playing experience that translates into a significant positive in terms of writing a script that can be made into a genuinely good film. There there is little point in Hollywood making such a movie, rather than starting from scratch,...except to take advantage of the coffers and marketing budget of Hasbro. Milking Hasbro is not a bad thing in itself, but it does not get the project off on the best footing.
I basically agree, except... I agree that there is zero about what we like that leads to a good script for fantasy story per se. But is it possible to make a script which conveys the sense of what it is we like about playing D&D? What do you think about the Clue: The Movie-inspired idea above? Is it possible to make a movie script which makes someone think, "Hey, playing Dungeons and Dragons with my friends sounds pretty cool!"?
Tanarii
2021-03-04, 02:00 PM
The tone wouldn't be farcical but maybe similar to Edge of Tomorrow/Live-Die-Repeat: action/adventure, but with an awareness of its own inherent comedy.
Or Groundhog Day, same starting point, different outcomes. (Your examples gave the impression of different starting points.)
I mean, I'd watch it if it was like any of those, because it's got its own interesting hook that should keep it going. Like momento, without the hook (watched in reverse) there's nothing special about it. But the hook made it fun.
StoneSeraph
2021-03-04, 02:34 PM
I basically agree, except... I agree that there is zero about what we like that leads to a good script for fantasy story per se. But is it possible to make a script which conveys the sense of what it is we like about playing D&D? What do you think about the Clue: The Movie-inspired idea above? Is it possible to make a movie script which makes someone think, "Hey, playing Dungeons and Dragons with my friends sounds pretty cool!"?
Sounds fantastic, really.
Put 5 people - a DM and four players - in a room, have them run through Sunless Citadel and have a blast doing it. Have everyone start out new and asking questions about what to roll as part of the out-of-game narration over the in-game scenes, but taper it off as the story progresses, indicating everyone reaching the same page. Include all the humorous beats with Meepo and the kobolds, develop tension and urgency when finding Karakas, amp up the action factor with a kobold v. goblin showdown, get weird and creepy with the second level, then go big with the fight against Belak. Have tense moments or big hits cut from in-game to out-of-game reactions, with the first major fight including plenty of cuts and, to contrast, the last fight flowing seamlessly right up until the end; make the audience forget that they're watching other people play the game. Once the players deliver the Hucreles back to the surface, have the DM close the book and say that's that with an in-game cliffhanger and the players looking forward to the next session.
Better yet, make it a family movie, with the DM as the oldest child and the four players being the mom, dad, and two younger siblings. Regardless of how it's done, there is one thing to avoid that, if included, will absolutely kill the vibe - out-of-game interpersonal drama. If I'm spending hard-earned cash to watch a D&D movie in this vein, I don't give a damn about the DM's relationship issues with the party ranger, or how the cleric and the rogue players broke up last month and are getting back together via the game. Forget that - those are stories for another movie that fit about as well as a love triangle fits into The Hobbit. Keep the vibe upbeat: the audience should leave the theater thinking "Yeah, this game sounds awesome!", not "Is everyone who plays this game a total downer?"
KorvinStarmast
2021-03-04, 03:17 PM
Sounds fantastic, really.
Put 5 people - a DM and four players - in a room, have them run through Sunless Citadel and have a blast doing it. Have everyone start out new and asking questions about what to roll as part of the out-of-game narration over the in-game scenes, but taper it off as the story progresses, indicating everyone reaching the same page. Include all the humorous beats with Meepo and the kobolds, develop tension and urgency when finding Karakas, amp up the action factor with a kobold v. goblin showdown, get weird and creepy with the second level, then go big with the fight against Belak. Have tense moments or big hits cut from in-game to out-of-game reactions, with the first major fight including plenty of cuts and, to contrast, the last fight flowing seamlessly right up until the end; make the audience forget that they're watching other people play the game. Once the players deliver the Hucreles back to the surface, have the DM close the book and say that's that with an in-game cliffhanger and the players looking forward to the next session.
Better yet, make it a family movie, with the DM as the oldest child and the four players being the mom, dad, and two younger siblings. Regardless of how it's done, there is one thing to avoid that, if included, will absolutely kill the vibe - out-of-game interpersonal drama. If I'm spending hard-earned cash to watch a D&D movie in this vein, I don't give a damn about the DM's relationship issues with the party ranger, or how the cleric and the rogue players broke up last month and are getting back together via the game. Forget that - those are stories for another movie that fit about as well as a love triangle fits into The Hobbit. Keep the vibe upbeat: the audience should leave the theater thinking "Yeah, this game sounds awesome!", not "Is everyone who plays this game a total downer?" Your spoilers are a neat idea that could be done well, and it could also be a dog's breakfast.
Who is the director?
TrueAlphaGamer
2021-03-04, 03:37 PM
On the topic of film: "The Gamers" is the best D&D-adjacent movie ever made. I'm serious.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/545098.Pages_of_Pain
I once had a hardback copy of this that I let a friend borrow... and now I no longer have a copy. Thus I haven't reread it, but it was actually pretty well put together story. Which was a bit surprising, because I expect virtually all genre fiction to be terrible; it's part of why I love it so much. Troy Denning, who has a catalogue where he churned out volumes of books for Star Wars, Halo, and Kim Possible. In addition to the entire pile of fiction he made for TSR. You could probably stack his paperbacks to the ceiling of the room you're reading this in. And if you're outside, probably it would just be a alot of books. But for a career that seems to be about drawing inside the lines, he put together at least one story that actually succeeded in grabbing my attention.
If you're into licensed novels... you could well have come across him. And if you're not into it... look, if you can't get behind a book where Duncan Macleod of the Clan Macleod basically solves the Israeli/Palestinian crisis in a little less than two hundred pages, then clearly you are most people. If you can't find joy reading the novelization of Harry and the Hendersons, then maybe your life was better spent than mine. I'd even go out on a limb and say probably better spent than mine. He didn't write those, but he probably could have with a different agent.
I'm just saying, my bookshelf is weird and is a perfect example of how literacy doesn't inherently make people tasteful. Basically, I read garbage, dude. Straight garbage. I am the trash panda of the literati, and I probably have the equivalent of reading rabies. I own a copy of the novelization of Rambo: First Blood, Part II. And reading it was a special joy.
So when I tell you that I got more time thinking out of Pages of Pain than I did out of To Kill A Mockingbird or The Red Badge of Courage, that is not necessarily a statement about inherent quality of any of the mentioned titles.
I mean, I can see the appeal of these kinds of books. I liked the Dark Elf trilogy well enough, as well as the Dragonlance Legends books. But I've seen and heard things here and there (some older threads on the Media Discussion archives on this site are quite a thrilling read when they start heating up), and I don't know how accepting the market is of those kinds of novels anymore, given how fantasy has somewhat changed in terms of reader expectations. I would assume that writing D&D novels would be somewhat restrictive in terms of how far you can push or twist the fantasy elements, at least in the context of current WotC.
Though I think it's strange that you expect genre fiction to be terrible, but that's another topic. :smallbiggrin:
Snails
2021-03-04, 06:03 PM
Snails was second my favorite character from D&D 2000 movie.
After the dwarf, of course. Nobody beats the dwarf fighter.
"Us two sucked the least!"
Yes, in honor of that character I choose this handle. (No, I am not "The Snail".)
Snails
2021-03-04, 06:24 PM
I basically agree, except... I agree that there is zero about what we like that leads to a good script for fantasy story per se. But is it possible to make a script which conveys the sense of what it is we like about playing D&D? What do you think about the Clue: The Movie-inspired idea above? Is it possible to make a movie script which makes someone think, "Hey, playing Dungeons and Dragons with my friends sounds pretty cool!"?
It is quite possible to make a good movie that captures some of the sense of D&D adventures, and avoids weighing the story down with difficult to understand fantastic elements.
There are already movies that are D&Dish: The Mummy. Tomb Raider. National Treasure. The Da Vinci Code.
I think the trap is adding Moar Fantasy to make a similar tale even "better". If the main characters are fantastic, it is wiser to make the main story more easily understood and relatable, at least at the beginning of a franchise.
Thus I humbly suggest the best first D&D movie would be a remake of The Seven Samurai. "A motley crew of strangers stitch themselves together into a team and save a village from bandits." In the background of this tale is greater conflict across the world, which is talked about but we do not see onscreen. Having saved the village, the stakes can be increased in a second movie, and more fantastic elements spooned in. (The very fantastic elements were always there in the background. But we do not ramp them up too quickly until the protagonists are solidified in the minds of the audience.)
Theodoxus
2021-03-04, 08:51 PM
Sounds fantastic, really.
Put 5 people - a DM and four players - in a room, have them run through Sunless Citadel and have a blast doing it. Have everyone start out new and asking questions about what to roll as part of the out-of-game narration over the in-game scenes, but taper it off as the story progresses, indicating everyone reaching the same page. Include all the humorous beats with Meepo and the kobolds, develop tension and urgency when finding Karakas, amp up the action factor with a kobold v. goblin showdown, get weird and creepy with the second level, then go big with the fight against Belak. Have tense moments or big hits cut from in-game to out-of-game reactions, with the first major fight including plenty of cuts and, to contrast, the last fight flowing seamlessly right up until the end; make the audience forget that they're watching other people play the game. Once the players deliver the Hucreles back to the surface, have the DM close the book and say that's that with an in-game cliffhanger and the players looking forward to the next session.
Better yet, make it a family movie, with the DM as the oldest child and the four players being the mom, dad, and two younger siblings. Regardless of how it's done, there is one thing to avoid that, if included, will absolutely kill the vibe - out-of-game interpersonal drama. If I'm spending hard-earned cash to watch a D&D movie in this vein, I don't give a damn about the DM's relationship issues with the party ranger, or how the cleric and the rogue players broke up last month and are getting back together via the game. Forget that - those are stories for another movie that fit about as well as a love triangle fits into The Hobbit. Keep the vibe upbeat: the audience should leave the theater thinking "Yeah, this game sounds awesome!", not "Is everyone who plays this game a total downer?"
I might be weird, but I think if it was done with the players always at the bottom of the screen, like a webcast D&D game, with the "live action" taking up 4/5ths above, that would be nifty. Though maybe jarring if the action suddenly stops as the player thinks about options (though watching them play out real time as they decide "fireball or hypnotic image"... Then, when one of the players has to use the restroom, their character pops out of existence, or maybe just stands like a statue, getting beat upon by monsters until the player returns and the table catches him up on all the action he missed.
Eh, probably not possible to do well enough to make it enjoyable... and yeah, I'm weird.
Thus I humbly suggest the best first D&D movie would be a remake of The Seven Samurai. "A motley crew of strangers stitch themselves together into a team and save a village from bandits." In the background of this tale is greater conflict across the world, which is talked about but we do not see onscreen. Having saved the village, the stakes can be increased in a second movie, and more fantastic elements spooned in. (The very fantastic elements were always there in the background. But we do not ramp them up too quickly until the protagonists are solidified in the minds of the audience.)
That would be a great way to demonstrate leveling up. A 1st level Wizard isn't particularly impressive as a standalone character. But as part of an ensemble, where their lowly sleep spell defeats a couple of bandits and then a few fire bolts for dramatic effect would sell the class. Similarly with other classes, letting each shine for a scene or two. Maybe there's a letter (or a sending spell!) from a parent or mentor talking about the happenings in the far-off place; a dragon raid or similar. And yeah, nothing but the description; no cut scene or anything fantastic. Let the audiences imagination win the day there. Then depending on how gamist you want the end of the movie to be, you could have a leveling montage followed by a classic "to be continued in..." (maybe not even a name, but a date. That would be pretty epic.)
ETA: Just watched "The Gamers" - and that was basically everything I wanted. Thanks for the suggestion :)
Oh, and Mythica was basically what I was talking about on page 1 - if they didn't use cheesy 80's blue screen effects, it would have been halfway decent. I get budget restraints... but basically I'd want to see a story like Mythica with a gaming style like the Gamers with the special effects of Marvel backing it. Not am impossible wishlist ;)
loki_ragnarock
2021-03-04, 11:08 PM
Though I think it's strange that you expect genre fiction to be terrible, but that's another topic. :smallbiggrin:
Once you read Elvendude you realize that almost everything in life is kind of terrible.
But if you can find some joy in the terrible, then you'll never want for either.
Clistenes
2021-03-05, 05:27 AM
It is quite possible to make a good movie that captures some of the sense of D&D adventures, and avoids weighing the story down with difficult to understand fantastic elements.
There are already movies that are D&Dish: The Mummy. Tomb Raider. National Treasure. The Da Vinci Code.
I think the trap is adding Moar Fantasy to make a similar tale even "better". If the main characters are fantastic, it is wiser to make the main story more easily understood and relatable, at least at the beginning of a franchise.
Thus I humbly suggest the best first D&D movie would be a remake of The Seven Samurai. "A motley crew of strangers stitch themselves together into a team and save a village from bandits." In the background of this tale is greater conflict across the world, which is talked about but we do not see onscreen. Having saved the village, the stakes can be increased in a second movie, and more fantastic elements spooned in. (The very fantastic elements were always there in the background. But we do not ramp them up too quickly until the protagonists are solidified in the minds of the audience.)
If I were to attempt a D&D-like fantasy story (movie, novel...etc.) first thing I would tell myself is that the story doesn't need to be all about a 5-7 people adventuring party going on a mission... A D&D game sorta has to be centered around the party, but a fantasy novel or movie doesn't need to... A Wizard of Earthsea is the story of Sparrohawk, the False Princess is about Nalia's life...etc.
The second thing I would remind myself is to not get too much magic from the beginning. I think low magic would help with immersion into the story...
Ideally, I think the level of magic should be somewhere in between Game of Thrones and Lord of the Rings.
The third thing would be, the consistency of the world should be more important than showing all D&D elements are present... Like, does the plot require that a Monk and a Warlock are part of it, or would it be better without them...?
KorvinStarmast
2021-03-05, 08:34 AM
Thus I humbly suggest the best first D&D movie would be a remake of The Seven Samurai. "A motley crew of strangers stitch themselves together into a team and save a village from bandits." In the background of this tale is greater conflict across the world, which is talked about but we do not see onscreen. Having saved the village, the stakes can be increased in a second movie, and more fantastic elements spooned in. (The very fantastic elements were always there in the background. But we do not ramp them up too quickly until the protagonists are solidified in the minds of the audience.) Low magic, yeah, that would be pretty good but the seven would need to make a number of raids to places like a cave, and old broken down castle, and something else to give it a more classic feel before the final battle in and around the village/town.
The second thing I would remind myself is to not get too much magic from the beginning. I think low magic would help with immersion into the story... make it almost pure Vancian, which is (or can be) a reach back to words of power and eldritch sounds (see also Merlin's Charm of Making in Excalibur) as elements of magical spells being cast.
Ideally, I think the level of magic should be somewhere in between Game of Thrones and Lord of the Rings. Yes, with magic items providing some of the effects.
Does the plot require that a Monk and a Warlock are part of it, or would it be better without them...? And can we dispense with elves entirely? That would be nice. :smallbiggrin: A nice gritty story would be something like a rogue(thief), a paladin(vengeance or ancients), a warlock(tome or blade, no hexblade!), a barbarian or a monk, and a druid. Five characters. Changing into animals now and again has cinematic potential now that SFX are so good.
Tanarii
2021-03-05, 08:46 AM
There are already movies that are D&Dish: The Mummy. Tomb Raider. National Treasure. The Da Vinci Code.
I think the trap is adding Moar Fantasy to make a similar tale even "better". If the main characters are fantastic, it is wiser to make the main story more easily understood and relatable, at least at the beginning of a franchise.
Thus I humbly suggest the best first D&D movie would be a remake of The Seven Samurai.
Those aren't very D&D-ish. D&D has half the classes using hugely visual and flashy Magic, even if it's not particularly more effective than a guy with heavy armor and a sword.
Avengers is closer to D&D-ish, with Thor, Scarlet Witch, Vision, etc. But superheroes with flashy tricks usually just have one or two flashy tricks they can do. Tier 2 D&D characters with magic could have a half a dozen that they only use once each. And Tier 2 (level 5-6) is probably where any D&D movie should be set.
The second thing I would remind myself is to not get too much magic from the beginning. I think low magic would help with immersion into the story...
Ideally, I think the level of magic should be somewhere in between Game of Thrones and Lord of the Rings.That would be a huge mistake. D&D has been high Magic since at least 3rd edition, when they changed XP to be incredibly fast advancement. And 5e is extremely high Magic. It won't feel like modern D&D at all. In terms of advertising the game, anyone who comes from the game from the movie will feel like they were sold a bill of goods.
Of course, given movie pacing, that's likely to happen anyway. They average crawling pace RPG game is anything but exciting. They're more like the snore-fest that is Critical Role. Or (having scanned after mention in this thread) The Gamers.
And that's before we even get into story-written plot lines, something that attempting to emulate in D&D becomes railroading.
StoneSeraph
2021-03-05, 08:57 AM
Who is the director?
Probably someone safe. Rob Reiner and Ron Howard spring to mind. It all falls to the writing in the end. One problem with the idea is that it would have to play out like The Princess Bride, which would be immediately called out regardless of how the effort turns out. All the same, the "oh yeah, I forgot they were reading a story!" vibe translates well into the spirit of TTRPG's when players immerse themselves in the setting.
Probably someone safe. Rob Reiner and Ron Howard spring to mind. It all falls to the writing in the end. One problem with the idea is that it would have to play out like The Princess Bride, which would be immediately called out regardless of how the effort turns out. All the same, the "oh yeah, I forgot they were reading a story!" vibe translates well into the spirit of TTRPG's when players immerse themselves in the setting.
The Directors are John Francis Daley and Jonathan Goldstein.
I wonder if the increase will include new box sets?
KorvinStarmast
2021-03-05, 11:27 AM
The Directors are John Francis Daley and Jonathan Goldstein. I note that he has a recent film that overlaps somewhat ....
Game Night is a 2018 American action comedy film[3][4] directed by John Francis Daley and Jonathan Goldstein and written by Mark Perez. It stars Jason Bateman and Rachel McAdams, and follows a group of friends whose game night turns into a real-life mystery after one of them is kidnapped by apparent burglars. Game Night II: D&D is probably not the working title, but I wonder if it's structure will be similar.
In 2019, it was announced that Goldstein and Daley were in talks be directing the reboot of Dungeons & Dragons (2022). In January 2020, it was announced that, in addition to directing, they would be writing a new draft of the screenplay Given that the writing for Game Night got critical praise, and they did a lot of writing for it, this bodes well.
Quotes are from Wikipedia articles on Daley and Goldstein respectively, with the usual caveats that implies.
R.Shackleford
2021-03-05, 12:34 PM
D&D will increase it's Cadence of Releases.
https://mobile.twitter.com/CHofferCBus/status/1364965513579950091
Chris Hoffer was covering Hasbro's Investors meeting where Chris **** mentioned this.
I'm not surprised. I remember the D&D Live Panel with Ray Winnger last year where he was talking about his plans for D&D, more casual products, anthologies to increase their freelancer pool, working on 3 Classic settings, future D&D MtG Crossovers, and I'm thinking that is going to require an increased rate of releases.
So I think we can expect a lot more books and other products from now on.
Good. We're in the endgame now.
With so many people playing D&D they're bound to see the utter lack of official options for customization.
I note that he has a recent film that overlaps somewhat ....
Game Night II: D&D is probably not the working title, but I wonder if it's structure will be similar.
Given that the writing for Game Night got critical praise, and they did a lot of writing for it, this bodes well.
Quotes are from Wikipedia articles on Daley and Goldstein respectively, with the usual caveats that implies.
I'm optimistic.
Good. We're in the endgame now.
With so many people playing D&D they're bound to see the utter lack of official options for customization.
End game, what end game?
Unoriginal
2021-03-05, 06:38 PM
End game, what end game?
People have been convinced 5e is going to end soon. Since 2014.
Tanarii
2021-03-05, 06:44 PM
People have been convinced 5e is going to end soon. Since 2014.3e lasted 8 and 4e 6. So WotC has skewed people's perceptions of how long an edition should last. TSR era was 11-12 (depending on if you count from MM or PHB) and 11 years.
R.Shackleford
2021-03-05, 07:31 PM
People have been convinced 5e is going to end soon. Since 2014.
Not ending soon, just a mid edition update like 3e and 4e did. For 5e it seems like an ideology shift it seems and I could see a bit more of 3e/4e's customization ideology coming to 5e (about time) due to a ramp up of production.
This is something that was expected since before the playtest.
It's the end of an era and I'm so glad to see it.
Unoriginal
2021-03-05, 08:14 PM
Not ending soon, just a mid edition update like 3e and 4e did. For 5e it seems like an ideology shift it seems and I could see a bit more of 3e/4e's customization ideology coming to 5e (about time) due to a ramp up of production.
This is something that was expected since before the playtest.
It's the end of an era and I'm so glad to see it.
Oh, my bad, I'll amend my statement:
Some people have been expecting the 5e design principles to fail and be replaced. Since before the playtest.
R.Shackleford
2021-03-05, 08:27 PM
Oh, my bad, I'll amend my statement:
Some people have been expecting the 5e design principles to fail and be replaced. Since before the playtest.
Never said I, or anyone else, wanted them to fail.
{Scrubbed}
Wanting them to put more effort into their product isn't wanting the product to fail. Imagine buying a PS5 and Sony saying "we're only putting out 1 or 2 games a year for this system. These games will basically be the same as each other". If it works, ok, great, but wanting more isn't wanting Sony to fail.
This is why I don't show up here a lot anymore, the toxicity is everywhere.
MaxWilson
2021-03-05, 08:30 PM
3e lasted 8 and 4e 6. So WotC has skewed people's perceptions of how long an edition should last. TSR era was 11-12 (depending on if you count from MM or PHB) and 11 years.
Not to mention that AD&D 1st and 2nd editions are genuinely editions (compatible with each other), not completely different games the way 3e and 5e are, which means AD&D lasted 23 years (1977-2000) as a flagship product, and continues to be played today.
PhoenixPhyre
2021-03-05, 08:38 PM
Never said I, or anyone else, wanted them to fail.
Don't be toxic.
Wanting them to put more effort into their product isn't wanting the product to fail. Imagine buying a PS5 and Sony saying "we're only putting out 1 or 2 games a year for this system. These games will basically be the same as each other". If it works, ok, great, but wanting more isn't wanting Sony to fail.
This is why I don't show up here a lot anymore, the toxicity is everywhere.
Avoiding content bloat (the thing most responsible for killing just about every edition before this) IS a core 5e design principle. Or at least it was.
Not ending soon, just a mid edition update like 3e and 4e did. For 5e it seems like an ideology shift it seems and I could see a bit more of 3e/4e's customization ideology coming to 5e (about time) due to a ramp up of production.
This is something that was expected since before the playtest.
It's the end of an era and I'm so glad to see it.
We've already seen some of that with Supernatural Gifts & Peity System in MOoT and Guilds in GMGtR, Dark Gifts in Ravenloft. So far its been very setting specific, especially to MtG settings.
So far the only setting specific customization that has been redone for general use is the Patron system, which is more Party then Character customization, but I could see Supernatural Gifts, Dark Gifts, Guild/Faction systems and Piety System (among others) getting generic setting neutral versions in a future *blanks* Guide to Everything books.
Now I'm wondering what Faerun's special customization mechanic will be. Perhaps culture based or the return of Epic Destinies, or a Stronghold.
Or maybe they will just focus more on lore, which lets be honest would take up more space in an Faerun Campaign World Guide Book. Maybe alot of lineages plus a few subclasses, but otherwise lore intensive.
Here are my guesses for the Future releases post Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft. Some of these guesses are inspired and influenced by folks on this forum.
1. July A Campaign World Book specifically on Faerun. Its big "theme" will be Dragons, I know alot of folks think Dragonlance when they think Dragon focused, because of the name and main plot of Dragonlance, but FR has way more diversity of Dragons (Gem Dragons, Lung Dragons, Song Dragons, Feathered Dragons, and more), Dragon Gods, Dragon kin races like Kobolds and Dragonborn (2 types), Dragon themed magics then Dragonlance. If they do a Dragonlance themed book in the future its central theme with be having a central story, perhaps even Romantic Fantasy or something.
2. September Feywild AP
3. November Spelljammer Campaign Book
4. March 2022 Another Adventure Anthology
5. May 2022 Kara Tur World Campaign Book
6. July 2022 Darksun Campaign World Book and MtG tie in card set.
7. Septmember 2022 another AP book.
8. November a Monster/Lineages book that feels like the love child of VGTEM and TCoE (basically Tasha's style Lineages in a Volo's style book). Or a MtG D&D crossover book for Dominaria.
Telok
2021-03-06, 03:14 AM
Avoiding content bloat (the thing most responsible for killing just about every edition before this) IS a core 5e design principle. Or at least it was.
I dunno. I bought AD&D stuff up until that ended, and a few used bits since, and some OSR stuff, and considering getting more OSR content. I bought less 3e stuff but was still willing to buy until the ToB errata screw-up. 4e had pc feature bloat issues and needed digital tools for sorting powers, paragon/epic classes, & feats. Given WotCs history of digital tool support, bad indexes/organization, and their use of silverlight code framework I skipped all that. But it wasn't because of the bloat, it was the lack of useability to find the useful bits. As a system 5e doesn't do anything new or interesting so I don't need it for mechanics. I'm potentially willing to buy settings but have zero use for FR and not much more for Eberron. And I know a couple other people, in meat space and who don't post on forums, who are the same way.
So I'm pretty sure there's money out there waiting for decent settings & setting specific content. But the focus on fan service retreads and not putting real effort into anything beyond FR (personal perception & opinion there, not intended as argument), plus the anemic output just keeps making WotC less and less relevant to gaming & spending money among the people I know.
Theodoxus
2021-03-06, 06:47 AM
I don't understand this desire for lore books. Are you all just curious how WotC sees the development of each setting? Like how the Spell Plague ruined Aber-Toril or how Athas has fared since the rise and demise of Tythian?
3E had a massive, and in my opinion, well done FR World Book that is perfectly usable for lore, plot hooks, and general descriptions. Are you miffed because 4th and 5th editions have nullified a fraction of that lore through plot development? Or is it that you've run through all the plot hooks and need new fluff to get by?
The thing I think is most hilarious is all WotC has basically done is taken ancient modules, updated them to 5E mechanics without even really trying to make the story/plot better, and bundling them into hardback books for profit. Same thing I've been doing (sans profit) since I first ran LMoP as a way to solidify the rules differences between 5E and prior editions for myself.
I really don't need more lore. And these kinds of threads are making me wary of more crunch... maybe I've officially moved into grognard-hood (ship?) I want interesting and novel mechanics I can plug and play into my own homebrew. Psychic Dice are a nice new feature. A bit tame from the UA presentation, but functional. The reliance of PB as a limiting usage factor for abilities, while it would be nice if they had included an optional 'backwards compatibility' list of PHB and XGtE features that could safely use that mechanic, I can do that leg work myself.
Tanarii
2021-03-06, 09:59 AM
I don't understand this desire for lore books.
The thing I think is most hilarious is all WotC has basically done is taken ancient modules, updated them to 5E mechanics without even really trying to make the story/plot better, and bundling them into hardback books for profit.Because 2e and 3e is very out of date. In most cases, the timeline has moved on. In all cases, world specific mechanics aren't easily adaptable. But unless you've got lots of money, spending big bucks for what's effectively a one-time read through on the lore portions doesn't appeal to me personally. I learned that with SCAG.
for adventures, changes apply with spades for mechanics. Paying someone else to adapt them is a huge time saver, and well worth spending money. For example there are several very well done conversions of the B-series modules out there.
One unfortunate side effect of running old modules is figuring out how to handle 5e PC's incredibly rapid level advancement.
Vegan Squirrel
2021-03-06, 10:32 AM
Here are my guesses for the Future releases post Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft. Some of these guesses are inspired and influenced by folks on this forum.
1. July A Campaign World Book specifically on Faerun. Its big "theme" will be Dragons, I know alot of folks think Dragonlance when they think Dragon focused, because of the name and main plot of Dragonlance, but FR has way more diversity of Dragons (Gem Dragons, Lung Dragons, Song Dragons, Feathered Dragons, and more), Dragon Gods, Dragon kin races like Kobolds and Dragonborn (2 types), Dragon themed magics then Dragonlance. If they do a Dragonlance themed book in the future its central theme with be having a central story, perhaps even Romantic Fantasy or something.
2. September Feywild AP
3. November Spelljammer Campaign Book
4. March 2022 Another Adventure Anthology
5. May 2022 Kara Tur World Campaign Book
6. July 2022 Darksun Campaign World Book and MtG tie in card set.
7. Septmember 2022 another AP book.
8. November a Monster/Lineages book that feels like the love child of VGTEM and TCoE (basically Tasha's style Lineages in a Volo's style book). Or a MtG D&D crossover book for Dominaria.
See, I'd be happy with that release schedule. A bunch of adventures and setting books I can safely not spend money on, and another monster book to consider with a few player options but not too many.
But the one setting supplement I'd really, really like to see (although there are plenty of 3rd party takes already), is the Feywild. Not an adventure, and nothing too rooted into place as one setting's concept of the Feywild, but a more generic and malleable, widely applicable supplement for designing faerie adventures and settings. Even most homebrewed settings are going to have some kind of land of faeries, so that kind of "setting" book would probably have wider appeal to the DMs who build their own worlds. And fey-specific player options in one place would be nice, too.
OldTrees1
2021-03-06, 10:40 AM
I don't understand this desire for lore books. Are you all just curious how WotC sees the development of each setting? Like how the Spell Plague ruined Aber-Toril or how Athas has fared since the rise and demise of Tythian?
In 3E there were 2 books (Lords of Madness and Draconomicon) I bought for Lore.
I wanted a deeper understanding of certain creatures. For Dragons I did have plenty of options outside D&D, but always found room for at least 1 more. They each had new takes or expanded on existing lore to flesh out this iconic creature. For Aberrations, many of them were invented by D&D, so there were no sources outside D&D. I learned a lot about Illithids from Lords Of Madness.
Campaign Setting lore books on the other hand had to sell me on the additional mechanics. I only gained some appreciation for a setting after it had hooked me with some other bait. That said, I became interested in Sigil enough that a sufficient up to date lore book on that might tempt me. Sigil has always been a place of shallow sources using contradicting theories, so a modern summary would be nice.
Theodoxus
2021-03-06, 12:16 PM
Because 2e and 3e is very out of date. In most cases, the timeline has moved on. In all cases, world specific mechanics aren't easily adaptable. But unless you've got lots of money, spending big bucks for what's effectively a one-time read through on the lore portions doesn't appeal to me personally. I learned that with SCAG.
for adventures, changes apply with spades for mechanics. Paying someone else to adapt them is a huge time saver, and well worth spending money. For example there are several very well done conversions of the B-series modules out there.
One unfortunate side effect of running old modules is figuring out how to handle 5e PC's incredibly rapid level advancement.
In 3E there were 2 books (Lords of Madness and Draconomicon) I bought for Lore.
I wanted a deeper understanding of certain creatures. For Dragons I did have plenty of options outside D&D, but always found room for at least 1 more. They each had new takes or expanded on existing lore to flesh out this iconic creature. For Aberrations, many of them were invented by D&D, so there were no sources outside D&D. I learned a lot about Illithids from Lords Of Madness.
Campaign Setting lore books on the other hand had to sell me on the additional mechanics. I only gained some appreciation for a setting after it had hooked me with some other bait. That said, I became interested in Sigil enough that a sufficient up to date lore book on that might tempt me. Sigil has always been a place of shallow sources using contradicting theories, so a modern summary would be nice.
In both these cases, you're following someone else's lore though. Not even the original creator of said lore in most (all?) cases. Just a ghost writer who said "I think this is cool."
Now, I get if you're rushed for time, or don't have the inclination (for whatever myriad reasons) to update old lore to new for your take on the setting... so reading someone else's work and then culling it of ideas that don't mesh with your take makes sense, especially if you can afford to dish out the cash for it. But take this excerpt for example. It's 3E lore. How much change has happened in 2 editions? What can't be run straight out of the FRCS book? (and before a claim of cherry picking, please know I literally just picked a random page that would copy/paste well...)
The Moonsea
Capital: None
Population: 1,745,280 (humans 69%, orcs 10%, half-orcs 6%, halflings
5%, dwarves 5%, ogres 2%, gnomes 2%)
Government: Independent city-states usually under oligarchic rule
Religions: Bane, Cyric, Loviatar, Mask, Talos, Talona, Umberlee
Imports: Food, textiles
Exports: Forged metal, furs, gems, lumber, raw minerals, slaves
Alignment: N, LE, LN
The Moonsea proper is a deep natural lake located north of the Dalelands and west of the Vast, connected to Sea of Fallen Stars by the shallow, swampy River Lis. The name “Moonsea” applies to both the lake and its environs, which stretch south as far as the mouth of the Lis where the river flows into the Dragon Reach, west to the Dragonspine Mountains, north to the frigid steppes of the Ride, Thar, and the Tortured Land, and east to the Galena and Earthspur Mountains.
The Moonsea region holds a huge amount of mineral wealth for those hardy enough to brave peril to win it. The area is infamous for its bleak landscapes, harsh winters, ravaging dragons, pirates, and rapacious local governments. Some of the most aggressive cities in Faerûn rise from the Moonsea’s shores: Hillsfar, Mulmaster, and Zhentil Keep. Wherever a government exists in the Moonsea, it rules with an iron grip. Tombs, ruins, and monster lairs abound in the Moonsea, as do complex intrigues and double dealing tyrants. The battle cry of the area is well chosen: “Dare and Beware!”
LIFE AND SOCIETY
The Moonsea is a frontier, with a frontier mentality. The area stands as a buffer between the elven lands to the south and the darker, more sinister lands of the Ride and Thar, home of dragons,
giants, and ogres. Cities rise quickly, built on nerve and wealth, only to fall in wars or raids and then to be rebuilt once more. Only the strongest and most savage prosper in the lands of the
Moonsea. Evil folk who ruthlessly control their lands rule the greatest cities. The people of Hillsfar, Melvaunt, Mulmaster, and Zhentil Keep are accustomed to cruel lords, for this is a cruel land. Better
to support the devil one knows than confront one of even more deadly and fell power. The lesser cities of Elventree, Phlan, and Thentia are less overtly evil but have a strong, independent, almost
chaotic nature.
The people of the Moonsea view the rest of world and even the other Moonsea cities with suspicion and distrust. In return, the rest of Faerûn sees the people of the Moonsea as unfriendly, sullen, dispirited, crafty, and most of all dangerous. In truth, they are no more universally evil than the well-respected Dalesfolk to the south are universally good. But travelers here are best forewarned to
remain wary nonetheless.
MAJOR GEOGRAPHICAL FEATURES
The Moonsea itself is the dominant feature in the Moonsea area, along with the fast, cold rivers that feed and drain it and the mountains that border it. North and west of the Moonsea, the intrigues
of the cities fall away to the brutal dangers of the environment and native inhabitants who don’t care for having their lands invaded.
Dragonspine Mountains: The western end of this high mountain range marks the western extent of the Moonsea area. Red and white dragons lair among the higher peaks. Goblins, orcs, and giants
occupy the lower peaks and the valleys. Mines in the western half supply minerals to Zhentil Keep, while the cities of Melvaunt and Hillsfar draw resources from the eastern half.
The Flooded Forest: This fetid swamp surrounded by boggy woodland lies between the river Lis and the Earthspur Mountains. Once an arm of Cormanthor, the area has sunk into a low bowl over the course of the past hundred years or so. The trees of the forest still stand, but have been dead for more than a century. Many are ready to fall at the slightest touch. Explorers face as much danger from falling trees as from wandering monsters. Hanging mosses and mushrooms are everywhere.
Denizens of the swamp include lizardfolk, black dragons, a number of fungus creatures, and carnivorous plants. Some of these creatures are not native to the area, giving rise to claims that someone or something is stocking the swamp to keep others away. The depths of the swamp hold the hidden lairs of brigands and pirates (especially near the southern end). Rumor has it that the
swamp also hides ruined temples of Gruumsh, Moander, and Bane. With the return of Bane, it’s a good bet that any temple to that deity hidden in the swamp has been secretly repaired and reopened, perhaps with an eye toward extending Bane’s influence south into the Vast.
The Moonsea: The depths of the Moonsea’s cold, clear, and purplish waters are said to have connections to underground seas and to the Elemental Plane of Water. No permanent islands break its surface, but rumors persist of isles that rise from the deeps on certain nights of the year.
Unoriginal
2021-03-06, 12:59 PM
In both these cases, you're following someone else's lore though. Not even the original creator of said lore in most (all?) cases. Just a ghost writer who said "I think this is cool."
Have you considered the concept that maybe some of we the consumers also said "I think this is cool" while reading the 5e lore, and as a result would enjoy more of it?
OldTrees1
2021-03-06, 01:18 PM
In both these cases, you're following someone else's lore though. Not even the original creator of said lore in most (all?) cases. Just a ghost writer who said "I think this is cool."
Now, I get if you're rushed for time, or don't have the inclination (for whatever myriad reasons) to update old lore to new for your take on the setting... so reading someone else's work and then culling it of ideas that don't mesh with your take makes sense, especially if you can afford to dish out the cash for it. But take this excerpt for example. It's 3E lore. How much change has happened in 2 editions? What can't be run straight out of the FRCS book? (and before a claim of cherry picking, please know I literally just picked a random page that would copy/paste well...)
Well 2 of my examples was someone expanding on old lore. I can do that myself, but I can do that AND benefit from someone else's work.
My 3rd example (Sigil) is a case where 1) Most of my sources are shallow, so it is another case of expanding rather than updating. and 2) Given how much of Sigil lore was conjecture, a lot of it could have changed in 25 years of theories.
So yes, reading someone else's work and then culling it of ideas that don't mesh with my take makes sense. That seems to be the model for Lore books. And explains why some do well and some do poorly.
Of course, if I were WotC I would continue to make splat books that satisfy multiple objectives. The Draconomicon was mostly edition compatible mechanics centered around Dragons.
jmberry
2021-03-06, 01:19 PM
In both these cases, you're following someone else's lore though. Not even the original creator of said lore in most (all?) cases. Just a ghost writer who said "I think this is cool."
Now, I get if you're rushed for time, or don't have the inclination (for whatever myriad reasons) to update old lore to new for your take on the setting... so reading someone else's work and then culling it of ideas that don't mesh with your take makes sense, especially if you can afford to dish out the cash for it. But take this excerpt for example. It's 3E lore. How much change has happened in 2 editions? What can't be run straight out of the FRCS book? (and before a claim of cherry picking, please know I literally just picked a random page that would copy/paste well...)
The Moonsea
Capital: None
Population: 1,745,280 (humans 69%, orcs 10%, half-orcs 6%, halflings
5%, dwarves 5%, ogres 2%, gnomes 2%)
Government: Independent city-states usually under oligarchic rule
Religions: Bane, Cyric, Loviatar, Mask, Talos, Talona, Umberlee
Imports: Food, textiles
Exports: Forged metal, furs, gems, lumber, raw minerals, slaves
Alignment: N, LE, LN
The Moonsea proper is a deep natural lake located north of the Dalelands and west of the Vast, connected to Sea of Fallen Stars by the shallow, swampy River Lis. The name “Moonsea” applies to both the lake and its environs, which stretch south as far as the mouth of the Lis where the river flows into the Dragon Reach, west to the Dragonspine Mountains, north to the frigid steppes of the Ride, Thar, and the Tortured Land, and east to the Galena and Earthspur Mountains.
The Moonsea region holds a huge amount of mineral wealth for those hardy enough to brave peril to win it. The area is infamous for its bleak landscapes, harsh winters, ravaging dragons, pirates, and rapacious local governments. Some of the most aggressive cities in Faerûn rise from the Moonsea’s shores: Hillsfar, Mulmaster, and Zhentil Keep. Wherever a government exists in the Moonsea, it rules with an iron grip. Tombs, ruins, and monster lairs abound in the Moonsea, as do complex intrigues and double dealing tyrants. The battle cry of the area is well chosen: “Dare and Beware!”
LIFE AND SOCIETY
The Moonsea is a frontier, with a frontier mentality. The area stands as a buffer between the elven lands to the south and the darker, more sinister lands of the Ride and Thar, home of dragons,
giants, and ogres. Cities rise quickly, built on nerve and wealth, only to fall in wars or raids and then to be rebuilt once more. Only the strongest and most savage prosper in the lands of the
Moonsea. Evil folk who ruthlessly control their lands rule the greatest cities. The people of Hillsfar, Melvaunt, Mulmaster, and Zhentil Keep are accustomed to cruel lords, for this is a cruel land. Better
to support the devil one knows than confront one of even more deadly and fell power. The lesser cities of Elventree, Phlan, and Thentia are less overtly evil but have a strong, independent, almost
chaotic nature.
The people of the Moonsea view the rest of world and even the other Moonsea cities with suspicion and distrust. In return, the rest of Faerûn sees the people of the Moonsea as unfriendly, sullen, dispirited, crafty, and most of all dangerous. In truth, they are no more universally evil than the well-respected Dalesfolk to the south are universally good. But travelers here are best forewarned to
remain wary nonetheless.
MAJOR GEOGRAPHICAL FEATURES
The Moonsea itself is the dominant feature in the Moonsea area, along with the fast, cold rivers that feed and drain it and the mountains that border it. North and west of the Moonsea, the intrigues
of the cities fall away to the brutal dangers of the environment and native inhabitants who don’t care for having their lands invaded.
Dragonspine Mountains: The western end of this high mountain range marks the western extent of the Moonsea area. Red and white dragons lair among the higher peaks. Goblins, orcs, and giants
occupy the lower peaks and the valleys. Mines in the western half supply minerals to Zhentil Keep, while the cities of Melvaunt and Hillsfar draw resources from the eastern half.
The Flooded Forest: This fetid swamp surrounded by boggy woodland lies between the river Lis and the Earthspur Mountains. Once an arm of Cormanthor, the area has sunk into a low bowl over the course of the past hundred years or so. The trees of the forest still stand, but have been dead for more than a century. Many are ready to fall at the slightest touch. Explorers face as much danger from falling trees as from wandering monsters. Hanging mosses and mushrooms are everywhere.
Denizens of the swamp include lizardfolk, black dragons, a number of fungus creatures, and carnivorous plants. Some of these creatures are not native to the area, giving rise to claims that someone or something is stocking the swamp to keep others away. The depths of the swamp hold the hidden lairs of brigands and pirates (especially near the southern end). Rumor has it that the
swamp also hides ruined temples of Gruumsh, Moander, and Bane. With the return of Bane, it’s a good bet that any temple to that deity hidden in the swamp has been secretly repaired and reopened, perhaps with an eye toward extending Bane’s influence south into the Vast.
The Moonsea: The depths of the Moonsea’s cold, clear, and purplish waters are said to have connections to underground seas and to the Elemental Plane of Water. No permanent islands break its surface, but rumors persist of isles that rise from the deeps on certain nights of the year.
How much change happened to the Moonsea in 2 editions? For starters, in 4E the primary power structure in the region, the Zhentarim, was almost completely destroyed, and the Netherese took their place as the big antagonists of the region. In 5E, we know the Zhentarim rebuilt and the Netherese were destroyed or banished, but we don't know the details (unless its come up in a novel I haven't read). We also don't know if the defeat of Netheril and the return of the Zhentarim has changed the dynamics of Hillsfar's relations with Myth Drannor.
I dunno. I bought AD&D stuff up until that ended, and a few used bits since, and some OSR stuff, and considering getting more OSR content. I bought less 3e stuff but was still willing to buy until the ToB errata screw-up. 4e had pc feature bloat issues and needed digital tools for sorting powers, paragon/epic classes, & feats. Given WotCs history of digital tool support, bad indexes/organization, and their use of silverlight code framework I skipped all that. But it wasn't because of the bloat, it was the lack of useability to find the useful bits. As a system 5e doesn't do anything new or interesting so I don't need it for mechanics. I'm potentially willing to buy settings but have zero use for FR and not much more for Eberron. And I know a couple other people, in meat space and who don't post on forums, who are the same way.
So I'm pretty sure there's money out there waiting for decent settings & setting specific content. But the focus on fan service retreads and not putting real effort into anything beyond FR (personal perception & opinion there, not intended as argument), plus the anemic output just keeps making WotC less and less relevant to gaming & spending money among the people I know.
Well it sounds like the out put rate won't stay anemic for long.
I don't understand this desire for lore books. Are you all just curious how WotC sees the development of each setting? Like how the Spell Plague ruined Aber-Toril or how Athas has fared since the rise and demise of Tythian?
3E had a massive, and in my opinion, well done FR World Book that is perfectly usable for lore, plot hooks, and general descriptions. Are you miffed because 4th and 5th editions have nullified a fraction of that lore through plot development? Or is it that you've run through all the plot hooks and need new fluff to get by?
The thing I think is most hilarious is all WotC has basically done is taken ancient modules, updated them to 5E mechanics without even really trying to make the story/plot better, and bundling them into hardback books for profit. Same thing I've been doing (sans profit) since I first ran LMoP as a way to solidify the rules differences between 5E and prior editions for myself.
I really don't need more lore. And these kinds of threads are making me wary of more crunch... maybe I've officially moved into grognard-hood (ship?) I want interesting and novel mechanics I can plug and play into my own homebrew. Psychic Dice are a nice new feature. A bit tame from the UA presentation, but functional. The reliance of PB as a limiting usage factor for abilities, while it would be nice if they had included an optional 'backwards compatibility' list of PHB and XGtE features that could safely use that mechanic, I can do that leg work myself.
4e and 5e didm't nullify the old lore, it just made it part of the settings history, its still happened.
Its that even the SCAG is out of date now with so much happening, not to mention the 4e FR world book and FR 3e world book, and so much that hasn't been covered by the SCAG to begin with. They maginuked the setting with the Spellplague, rebuilt the setting with the Sundering, then a bunch of things happened like Descent into Avernus after the Sundering. And the timeline was bumped more then 100 years since 3e. So the 3e FR world cook is useful for history of the setting, but not useful for the present at all.
In both these cases, you're following someone else's lore though. Not even the original creator of said lore in most (all?) cases. Just a ghost writer who said "I think this is cool."
Now, I get if you're rushed for time, or don't have the inclination (for whatever myriad reasons) to update old lore to new for your take on the setting... so reading someone else's work and then culling it of ideas that don't mesh with your take makes sense, especially if you can afford to dish out the cash for it. But take this excerpt for example. It's 3E lore. How much change has happened in 2 editions? What can't be run straight out of the FRCS book? (and before a claim of cherry picking, please know I literally just picked a random page that would copy/paste well...)
The Moonsea
Capital: None
Population: 1,745,280 (humans 69%, orcs 10%, half-orcs 6%, halflings
5%, dwarves 5%, ogres 2%, gnomes 2%)
Government: Independent city-states usually under oligarchic rule
Religions: Bane, Cyric, Loviatar, Mask, Talos, Talona, Umberlee
Imports: Food, textiles
Exports: Forged metal, furs, gems, lumber, raw minerals, slaves
Alignment: N, LE, LN
The Moonsea proper is a deep natural lake located north of the Dalelands and west of the Vast, connected to Sea of Fallen Stars by the shallow, swampy River Lis. The name “Moonsea” applies to both the lake and its environs, which stretch south as far as the mouth of the Lis where the river flows into the Dragon Reach, west to the Dragonspine Mountains, north to the frigid steppes of the Ride, Thar, and the Tortured Land, and east to the Galena and Earthspur Mountains.
The Moonsea region holds a huge amount of mineral wealth for those hardy enough to brave peril to win it. The area is infamous for its bleak landscapes, harsh winters, ravaging dragons, pirates, and rapacious local governments. Some of the most aggressive cities in Faerûn rise from the Moonsea’s shores: Hillsfar, Mulmaster, and Zhentil Keep. Wherever a government exists in the Moonsea, it rules with an iron grip. Tombs, ruins, and monster lairs abound in the Moonsea, as do complex intrigues and double dealing tyrants. The battle cry of the area is well chosen: “Dare and Beware!”
LIFE AND SOCIETY
The Moonsea is a frontier, with a frontier mentality. The area stands as a buffer between the elven lands to the south and the darker, more sinister lands of the Ride and Thar, home of dragons,
giants, and ogres. Cities rise quickly, built on nerve and wealth, only to fall in wars or raids and then to be rebuilt once more. Only the strongest and most savage prosper in the lands of the
Moonsea. Evil folk who ruthlessly control their lands rule the greatest cities. The people of Hillsfar, Melvaunt, Mulmaster, and Zhentil Keep are accustomed to cruel lords, for this is a cruel land. Better
to support the devil one knows than confront one of even more deadly and fell power. The lesser cities of Elventree, Phlan, and Thentia are less overtly evil but have a strong, independent, almost
chaotic nature.
The people of the Moonsea view the rest of world and even the other Moonsea cities with suspicion and distrust. In return, the rest of Faerûn sees the people of the Moonsea as unfriendly, sullen, dispirited, crafty, and most of all dangerous. In truth, they are no more universally evil than the well-respected Dalesfolk to the south are universally good. But travelers here are best forewarned to
remain wary nonetheless.
MAJOR GEOGRAPHICAL FEATURES
The Moonsea itself is the dominant feature in the Moonsea area, along with the fast, cold rivers that feed and drain it and the mountains that border it. North and west of the Moonsea, the intrigues
of the cities fall away to the brutal dangers of the environment and native inhabitants who don’t care for having their lands invaded.
Dragonspine Mountains: The western end of this high mountain range marks the western extent of the Moonsea area. Red and white dragons lair among the higher peaks. Goblins, orcs, and giants
occupy the lower peaks and the valleys. Mines in the western half supply minerals to Zhentil Keep, while the cities of Melvaunt and Hillsfar draw resources from the eastern half.
The Flooded Forest: This fetid swamp surrounded by boggy woodland lies between the river Lis and the Earthspur Mountains. Once an arm of Cormanthor, the area has sunk into a low bowl over the course of the past hundred years or so. The trees of the forest still stand, but have been dead for more than a century. Many are ready to fall at the slightest touch. Explorers face as much danger from falling trees as from wandering monsters. Hanging mosses and mushrooms are everywhere.
Denizens of the swamp include lizardfolk, black dragons, a number of fungus creatures, and carnivorous plants. Some of these creatures are not native to the area, giving rise to claims that someone or something is stocking the swamp to keep others away. The depths of the swamp hold the hidden lairs of brigands and pirates (especially near the southern end). Rumor has it that the
swamp also hides ruined temples of Gruumsh, Moander, and Bane. With the return of Bane, it’s a good bet that any temple to that deity hidden in the swamp has been secretly repaired and reopened, perhaps with an eye toward extending Bane’s influence south into the Vast.
The Moonsea: The depths of the Moonsea’s cold, clear, and purplish waters are said to have connections to underground seas and to the Elemental Plane of Water. No permanent islands break its surface, but rumors persist of isles that rise from the deeps on certain nights of the year.
Well for one thing Zhentil Keep is now in ruins and unhabited, so that is one big change. That is just off the top of my head for showing how out of date that page is. If I dig deeper I could come up more, that was just a quick example.
@GYOR
Wildemount has Hollow Ones which they consider a supernatural gift. Rime of the Frostmaiden also has some extras for starting characters that include things like being a doppelganger. I hope any new Forgotten Realm setting material includes Clockworks/Gondsmen/Nimblewrights.
I agree with a few of these of course since they line up with my own. I don't see them coming out with a Faerun book based on Dragons in July. Of course a new UA could come out this month and change my mind, but as it stands, I don't think so. That much dragon diversity would be better suited to a Draconomicon type of book. 2e, 3e, and 4e, had a Draconomicon, so methinks we'll definitely see one for 5e at some point.
I think WotC should have made a 5e compatible derivative game and came out with a Planeswalker PHB etc. Then released all those setting books to tie it all in. Since we have what we have though, and Theros came out last year in June/July, I don't see them waiting 2 1/2 years to put out another Planescape book. We've had something M:TG related for D&D every year for the past 5 years, covering 8 settings. My own thoughts are a July 2021 release, but should they release another Classic setting or Forgotten Realms book in July this year, then methinks that November release becomes a M:TG setting book. A year and a half has been the longest between released M:TG related material. And they are increasing the cadence after all.
Concerning Forgotten and also Adventure books, I can see them coming out with a Kar-Tur or Al-Qadim type book, but I can also see them coming out with a desert adventure based around Mulhorand in the style of Icewind Dale: Rime of the Frostmaiden. Learn a lot about the area and an adventure too. Call it Mulhorand: Desert of Desolation...
5e Adventure books more often than not seem to be based around a land type or creature type. Tyranny of Dragon (Dragons), Princes of the Apocalypse (Elementals), Out of the Abyss (Underdark), Curse of Strahd (Undead), Storm King's Thunder (Giants), Tomb of Annihilation (Jungles), Ghosts of Saltmarsh (Coastal), Baldur's Gate: Descent Into Avernus (Fiend), Icewind Dale: Rime of the Frostmaiden (Artic), and so on.
Gondman/Nimblewrights would be cool.
They don't do specialized focus books like Dracomicon in 5e, especially recycling titles post core books.
This is why they are shifting focus to Setting books, they can be so many different things and appeal to different types of interests.
Remember by July the Forgotten Realms WILL be an MtG book at least in some sense. Hence why I think a July Faerun Campaign World Book is coming, SYNERGY!
And they like to create MtG D&D books to tie into current sets, which by November will be Innistrad, which is way too much over lap with Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft. Plus there is already a Planeshift Article.
I do think there will be an MtG campaign setting book next year, but not this, next year. FR is this years D&D MtG crossover.
How much change happened to the Moonsea in 2 editions? For starters, in 4E the primary power structure in the region, the Zhentarim, was almost completely destroyed, and the Netherese took their place as the big antagonists of the region. In 5E, we know the Zhentarim rebuilt and the Netherese were destroyed or banished, but we don't know the details (unless its come up in a novel I haven't read). We also don't know if the defeat of Netheril and the return of the Zhentarim has changed the dynamics of Hillsfar's relations with Myth Drannor.
You ninja'd me on Zhentil Keep. Good work.
He picked a page at random thinking nothing major happened to that location, not realizing how much happened and change since.
But what relations with Myth Drannor, Myth Drannor stands destroyed after its war with Netheril?
Gondman/Nimblewrights would be cool.
They don't do specialized focus books like Dracomicon in 5e, especially recycling titles post core books.
This is why they are shifting focus to Setting books, they can be so many different things and appeal to different types of interests.
Remember by July the Forgotten Realms WILL be an MtG book at least in some sense. Hence why I think a July Faerun Campaign World Book is coming, SYNERGY!
And they like to create MtG D&D books to tie into current sets, which by November will be Innistrad, which is way too much over lap with Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft. Plus there is already a Planeshift Article.
I do think there will be an MtG campaign setting book next year, but not this, next year. FR is this years D&D MtG crossover.
So they’ll probably have some cameos in both grimdark settings
Well they haven't up to this point. That doesn't mean they won't now that production is increasing. At least for something concerning Dragons in a Dungeons and Dragons game, it would make sense methinks. Or maybe they turn it into something like Volo's/Mord's, with a major theme being Dragons, their minions, races, subclasses and whatnot. Or just go full blown Council of Wyrms with lots of extras hehe. As for a title it could easily be something like Draconomicon: Elminster's Guide to Dragons or whoever's name you wanna stick in there. Who are the great dragon hunters in D&D anyway?
They certainly recycle adventures and art. Wildemount still makes my eyes glaze over when it comes to the interior art, especially in the races section.
I'm looking at it from a little bit of a different direction. Yes, there's a M:TG crossover with the Forgotten Realms in July. But those sets aren't considered cannon for the M:TG multiverse. Theros and Ravnica settings aren't AL legal after the dissolution of the PHB+1 rule. So what does the M:TG/FR crossover really mean? I believe it's just going one way, FR magic cards will be released as their first new Universes Beyond set. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense for a M:TG crossover with D&D to be a setting already in D&D. Nothing for M:TG players to get excited about and crossover to buy. They want you, the D&D FR fan to crossover and buy Magic cards. You might not, but many people will.
Another thing to consider when thinking about new Forgotten Realms' setting books is that everything is still concentrated around the Sword Coast for 5e. MMOs like Neverwinter, Computer Games like Baldur's Gate 3 and Dungeons & Dragons: Dark Alliance coming out this year (located in Icewind Dale and you play Drizzt and company), all the Adventure books in recent memory, the few novels that get released nowadays, and on and on. They might not want to draw attention away from the Sword Coast area just yet. Especially when they have so much other non-FR setting material.
The Dragonlance novel comes out in July too, so a case could be made for a Dragonlance Setting book. I don't think it's going to happen then, if it ever does. I think WotC will wait and see how it's received before proceeding down that road.
What isn't getting serviced yet this year that we've been getting a dose of for the past 5 years is a M:TG setting under D&Ds banner. The M:TG card set in the case of Ravnica and Theros came before the setting books, so I don't see any setting book coming before a set is released. And a lot of M:TG players will buy it.
Thanks for the discussion Gyor. The coming months should shine more light on what's in store for us. ;)
Not everything anymore, some of the adventures in Mysteries of Candlekeep visit other parts of the Forgotten Realms.
And MtG FR set is a huge investiment in art, so they will want to do a FRCG type book to make the most of it.
Either way they won't have the right setting for MtG canon MtG D&D crossover until next year. Plus they have a back log of D&D settings to update.
Honestly alot of MtG settings don't convert to D&D well. A Dominaria, Kaldheim, Eldraine, or Alara could, but those are too new and untested (Kaldheim), or not releasing this year.
As for Camoes, yeah I could see an Innistrad side bar in VRGtR and a Secret Lair adding Ravenloft Art and Creature and characters to Innistrad cards like the Godzilla Secret Lair for Ikoria.
Also Guildmasters Guide To Ravnica, the first MtG D&D book, has only been out for less then 3 years, it came out November 2018. There was no MtG D&D crossover book in 2019. Theros was early 2020, May I think. Planeshift articles are all unofficial, created by James Wyatt and his daughter on their own time and dime, with permission of WotC.
I agree, I don't think Dragonlance will be getting a hardcover D&D world book this year, WotC had to be forced to even let the trilogy be published. Popularity wise its a second tier setting at best, without the boost that fellow second Tier setting Spelljammer got from BG3 and so on.
In case your curious the Top Tier most popular settings are Forgotten Realms, Eberron, Ravenloft, Planescape and Darksun.
Second Tier was Spelljammer, Dragonlance, and Greyhawk. The rest were vastly below this.
For alot of MtG fans, Dungeons and Dragons: Adventures in the Forgotten Realms might be their first experience of the Forgotten Realms, a chance to sell books to MtG fans unfamiliar with traditional D&D settings. And the door is still open to merging the settings, wizards confirmed its something they are concidering for the future if they can do it in a fun way.
And I too am enjoying this conservation.
So they’ll probably have some cameos in both grimdark settings
Yeah, maybe a side bar in Van Richton's Guide to Ravenloft for Innistrad and/or a Secret Lair with Ravenloft art/characters/monsters on Innistrad cards ala Godzilla Secret Lair connected to Ikoria cards.
Thanks for that, haven't delved too deep into the Candlekeep anthology. I do dislike that it doesn't have an appendix in the back, and all the new monster stat blocks and new magic items are printed in the section of the story itself. I foresee lots of page flipping.
That Kaldheim card art is pretty awesome too ;) I am pretty sure that Tony DiTerlizzi will be doing some of the M:TG Adventures in the Forgotten Realms card art. He's shown up a lot in the past year drawing stuff, and when Planescape fans asked him if it was for a new Planescape setting he confided it was for a M:TG card set crossover with D&D. Makes sense since he's done M:TG card art and worked on D&D projects before.
I doubt they'll convert every D&D setting to 5e. I think the ones that have the best shot are the ones that get constantly mentioned in the Core books and Adventure books on where to place those adventures. And even then I think some might get left out depending on how long 5e lasts. At some point they're probably going to churn out a lot of Forgotten Realms sub-settings.
Dominaria was converted already with the other Planeshift entries. But yeah, I agree a lot of their settings probably have difficulty crossing over. Why I mentioned it would have been cool if they had a D&D derivative game for the M:TG settings. Come out with a Planeswalker core book and have Dominaria be the first setting since it's the nexus of that multiverse.
I'm still leaning towards a Kaldheim book. I know it's new and untested, but no other settings make sense for awhile in M:TG and since Kaldheim is based on Norse mythology (like Theros was based on Greek mythology) I don't see having to make up that much ground. The card art is spot on for that Viking vibe. Theros was released in hardback last year in July... increased cadence, I can see them releasing a July hardback for M:TG every July from now on.
In regards to James Wyatt and Planeshift, yup, unofficial for D&D, but he was working on the M:TG side of the house at that time after he left the D&D team. Those years (2016, 2017, 2018 first half of the year) were all the Planeshift releases. And James Wyatt was the author of those associated "The Art of Magic: The Gathering - (Setting Name)" books. He came back to D&D in 2018. And since then it's been one D&D book a year from him as a Lead Designer. Here, I'll spell out exactly why I see Kaldheim coming down the pipeline:
2018 Guildmaster's Guide to Ravnica ==> Lead Designers: James Wyatt, Jeremy Crawford
Associated UA: Races of Ravnica by James Wyatt, Ari Levitch, Jeremy Crawford
2019 Eberron: Rising From The Last War ==> Lead Designers: Jeremy Crawford, James Wyatt, Keith Baker
Associated UA1: The Artificer Revisited by Jeremy Crawford, Keith Baker, Mike Mearls, Ben Petrisor, James Wyatt
Associated UA2: The Artificer Returns by Jeremy Crawford, Keith Baker, Mike Mearls, Ben Petrisor, James Wyatt
2020 Mythic Odysseys of Theros ==> Lead Designers: F. Wesley Schneider, James Wyatt
Associated UA: Centaurs and Minotaurs by Jeremy Crawford, Mike Mearls, James Wyatt
So I'm thinking something gets released with James Wyatt as a Lead Designer in 2021. He worked on the original Eberron Campaign setting so makes sense he was in on this one too. I'm expecting 2021 to look like this:
2021 *Epic Sojourns of KALDHEIM* ==> Lead Designers: Dan Dillon, James Wyatt
Associated UA: 2020: Subclasses, Part 5 by Dan Dillon, with Jeremy Crawford, Ben Petrisor, Taymoor Rehman, and James Wyatt
The above 5 UAs are the only UAs associated with James Wyatt. He's been a Lead Designer on all those projects for the first 4 UAs listed. Now, he's also worked on a lot of other D&D Settings, but the telling thing with the Subclasses UA is that Dan Dillon is listed as primary author. Dan Dillon previously worked at Kobold Press and worked heavily on various titles in their Norse setting, Midgard. The Theros card set was released in January last year with a book in July, so since Kaldheim's card set was released back in January and early February I think July might be the release date. I'll admit that the Dan Dillon entry and James Wyatt's previous releases play a big part on why I think it'll be Kaldheim. But not the only reasons. Taymoor Rehman's blurb in the latest Dragon+ reads "Taymoor works with the creative teams behind D&D and Magic: The Gathering." There's that M:TG thing again. Ben Petrisor also worked on the UA "Spells and Magic Tattoos" so I'm hoping maybe there will be more of the tattooed flavor magic and runes. Finally, a 2009 James Wyatt interview sticks in my mind where he says he wants to work on new settings. He goes on to say he likes Ravenloft, but not as a setting. Spelljammer he has no great love for. He never got into Mystara. Greyhawk is not a huge personal favorite. And so on. All which leads me to think Kaldheim is the only thing that fits here and checks all the boxes.
Yeah, the BG3 thing and the other Spelljammer pointers make me think it's going to come out at some point as one of those Classic Setting entries. Maybe they wait on Dragonlance until all the books are released as some have been saying. The 40th anniversary of the creation of Dragonlance is coming up next year (1982-2022). Might be a good time to release something end of year.
Interesting list of rankings. It does amaze me how many cool things came out during 2nd edition. I can see Greyhawk just get mentions in other 5e works like characters, spell names, adventures and whatnot without ever being released as a setting again since Gygax passed. I still have my doubts Dark Sun gets released as a setting for 5e. It's just so different with races and classes that it might be a turnoff when someone wants to play a race and/or class combination that doesn't fit in Dark Sun. It's also meant to be harsh and deadly, and I don't see 5e's rules gelling so well with it. I love the setting and still have fun with the second edition version, but I can see a lot of players, especially newer ones maybe not receiving it so well. I would hate to see them release a watered down version.
Would a Kara-Tur or Al-Qadim or larger Forgotten Realms setting book surprise me? Nope, not really. I just think it might be a little later down the road, early next year, maybe even November this year. Especially since the M:TG crossovers came out months before the hardback. FR M:TG crossover comes out in July, so the timing would add up.
Of course jaappleton did say his guess was Kara-Tur. So I'm probably just flat out wrong and we'll see it in July, lol.
It is fun to speculate, look around for clues, and discuss upcoming releases.
Darksun is no worse then Theros or Ravnica for race restrictions and its art style would look great on MtG cards. Preserving and Defiling would make very interesting keyword mechanics. I could see Defiling tapping an enemies land. And Preserving might reduce mana costs.
You've actually convinced me even more that there will be an FR book in July.
1. James Wyatt has written major FR books before, Player's Guide to the Forgotten Realms in 2004, and Monster Compendium: Monsters of the Forgotten Realms, as well as FR articles for Dragon Magazine.
2. Subclasses part 5 does not fit Kaldheim at all, the subclasses lore does fit FR to a T. Kaldheim does have beautiful Dragons, but they are a minor Kaldheim race, not one of the big 10 races. There are 2 Kaldheim dragon cards, the Innersturm Dragon and Goldspan Dragon (which btw I got in a $7cad Red Theme Booster, its worth $32cad), and one human Bezerker (Barbarian in D&D terms) that makes Dragon tokens. If the Dragon subclasses were for Kaldheim one of them would have been a Barbarian.
3. I do believe Kaldheim was designed to be turned into a D&D setting someday, but not on its first release. I think Kaldheim was first MtG setting created with an eye toward eventually converting it to D&D, Mark Rosewater has said Kaldheim that new settings no longer get multiple sets until WotC can see how folks respond to the setting, so I think that logic applies to a D&D hardcover. Next time we visit Kaldheim, that will give them a chance to fill the Setting out more now that its been tested.
4. James Wyatt will absolutely be helping with the D&D Forgotten Realms MtG set, he has experience in D&D, The Forgotten Realms Lore, and MtG, and the MtG and D&D teams have worked together on this project, like they did in previous crossovers. No way James Wyatt isn't apart of that.
You add 1 and 4 together it adds up to James Wyatt helping to make an FR world book.
As for Tony DiTerlizzi, MtG sets art gets commissioned roughly a year before the set actually comes out from what I hear, so depending on when he posted that it could be for the FR set OR it could be confirmation of an MtG Planescape set in 2022 (Planescape would have been my second choice for the next D&D MtG set, its got alot of distinctive art styles and weird creatures and monster types that would fit into MtG, like Demogorgan). When was the tweet?
1. He has indeed. Oriental Adventures for 3rd edition, although it was the world of Rokugan that time around. He's had a mini campaign for Mahasarpa. Also Draconomicon for 3e.
2. I disagree. Yes the Dragonkin Berserker makes token dragons. There's also Magda the Brazen Outlaw (Dwarf Berserker) that makes Treasure tokens and 5 of those Treasures can be sacrificed to summon a Dragon or Artifact in your library. Get that Goldspan Dragon or Immersturm Predator out in play. Or Hellkites that are also found in Kaldheim. Drakewardens can summon their Drake from level 3 onward. Seems pretty same same to me. There's also an Ascendant Spirit card to become a Spirit Warrior. Yeah, Way of the Ascendant Dragon is much cooler, but still similar stuff is happening. Ravnica had Order Domain Clerics and Spore Druids. Didn't exactly scream Ravnica themed book either. They could easily add more totem types to Totem Barbarian... or maybe even add a Berserker lineage. Make it hereditary and occurring later in life like those Gothic lineages. There are so many kinds of Berserkers running around Kaldheim. Maybe a Draugr (similar to Reborn) and/or Valkyrie lineages as well. Need to see if there's gonna be another UA released here in the next month or so, might be a better indication for us. Or maybe even a few more subclasses. I hate waiting lol.
3. It might be another 5 years before Kaldheim gets another release. Doubt they'd wait that long for a hardback crossover setting. But yeah, it does seem like it was created for just that purpose... Meanwhile, there's already Kaldheim workups like "Adventures in Kaldheim" for playing it as a D&D setting. Youtube channels like Captain RoBear are playing D&D using Kaldheim as the setting. All kinds of discussions on a possible crossover taking place on various forums like Reddit. Might be a missed opportunity if they don't strike while the iron is hot.
4. Yup. But most of that was awhile ago. He's said he wants to work on new D&D worlds. He left D&D and converted a bunch from M:TG settings to D&D because he has a passion for it. He came back to D&D and immediately released Ravnica. Helped Eberron come to 5e with work on Artificers, one of the 2 newest settings that existed before 5e started releasing new ones. The other newer one? Nentir Vale in 4e's DMG. Yup, James Wyatt again. Even got the cosmology included in 5e's DMG. Then Theros last July. Know what isn't new? Forgotten Realms. It's already the default setting and it's going to be there for as long as there is D&D. Plenty of time to do more books. ;)~
TD was working on a Tiefling in March of last year as I recall. I'll have to go dig for when he stated it was for a M:TG related thing. Gott run for the moment though. Thanks again for the back and forth discussion. Pretty sure one of us is right. I hope so anyway.
James Wyatt doesn't just get to pick the projects he works on now that is back on the D&D team. Those choices are up to Ray Winnger, who decides what projects get done and whose assigned to what.
They had no idea for sure how Kaldheim would be received, hence why it only got one set, these books are started before WotC had any market data.
Kaldheim's D&D day will come, but I just don't see it being this year. Its just too new.
Um, James Wyatt just tweeted yesterday “Well, I’m back.” He just got put back on the WotC D&D Tabletop Team under the Design Department. His Twitter now has him listed as a Writer for Both D&D and M:TG.
https://twitter.com/aquelajames/status/1368681126252871681
He wasn't under Ray Winninger (who just took over last year) on any of the previous work either. He was working across the aisle so to speak. I imagine they asked him to work on those previous projects since he was over at M:TG and knew a lot about the subject matter. He wasn't assigned to them as he didn't work for D&D. And whatever is coming out the rest of the year has been in the works for awhile. He wasn't assigned those either, though he may be put on those teams now that he's back working for them.
I did notice one weird thing for those subclasses. They shy away from tying a dragon color to the subclass abilities. It's pick a damage type and that determines immunity and such.
"You can determine the cosmetic characteristics of the drake such as its color, scale texture, or any visible effect of its Draconic Essence; your choice has no effect on its game statistics." I guess everything gets the Tasha's treatment these days...
Anywho, I'm gonna start looking for a UA the week or so after Candlekeep Mysteries comes out.
I'm looking for UAs every month! But if there are any races, then I don't know if we will get any UAs for them because prior to the Gothic Lineages we stopped getting them. GL was likely done because they are Tasha's style and very different from any previous races, so they wanted to know if the public would races done this different way, and they now know they will so we might not get more races UAs. Or I could be wrong.
If they did a Kaldheim book, I think Hagi Trolls might be a race. Angels/Valkyries have flight and are unlikely, Elves/Humans/Dwarves are already core races. Demons are well Demons. Gladewalkers and Covewalkers are too powerful. Spirits don't makes sense as a PC race. Giants are too big to be a PC race. That just leaves Hagi and a reprint of Reborn for the Zombies.
Side note I'm hearing there might be Box sets too. But how many more Starter type sets make sense, I mean you have Essentials, Starter Box, Stranger Things, and Rick and Morty. Maybe box sets for none starter games? Box sets for smaller setting perhaps.
Or maybe FR will be a giant box set with a book for Faerun, a Book for Kara Tur, and a Book for Zakhara and a Book for Maztica.
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