The wisdom of these crowds...

[Waazraath]

Some weeks (months?) ago, there was this thread on spells, and Revivify was discussed, I argued I never took it cause 1) I'd never needed it before, 2) a spell slot used to prevent everything going south is better spend than one repairing stuff when things have gone south already, and 3) how big are the odds that you can really use it, once everything has blown up aldready... need to recover the body, and be able to cast the spell within 1 minute.

Some of you kind folks expressed that this was all good and well, but that at the moment you do need the spell, I'd probably regret it.

Well... with hindsight, I think you may have had a point. I'm pretty sure my groups paladin is regretting that I didn't have it =|

[kingcheesepants]

Sometimes we have to learn the hard way unfortunately (for your paladin especially). Out of curiosity what was it that did him in? If I had to guess it was probably a monster or effect that bypasses normal HP or death saves and does a straight to dead type of deal like a succubus' kiss or a beholder's death beam. Those are the kinds of things that I would normally find my group using revivify to fix.

[Valmark]

Aye. It's one of those spells that you never use except when you really need it... And when you do it's very needed.

The time when I barely managed to cast it within the 1 minute span was one of the times I worried the most. I wouldn't take it only if I couldn't afford the material component.

[LudicSavant]

Some weeks (months?) ago, there was this thread on spells, and Revivify was discussed, I argued I never took it cause 1) I'd never needed it before, 2) a spell slot used to prevent everything going south is better spend than one repairing stuff when things have gone south already, and 3) how big are the odds that you can really use it, once everything has blown up aldready... need to recover the body, and be able to cast the spell within 1 minute.

Some of you kind folks expressed that this was all good and well, but that at the moment you do need the spell, I'd probably regret it.

Well... with hindsight, I think you may have had a point. I'm pretty sure my groups paladin is regretting that I didn't have it =|

My philosophy:

1) You should wear your seatbelt even if you never needed it before.

3) It's not about how likely you are to use it, it's about how many things need to go wrong in order for you to reach a fail condition.

The champion is not she who wins most decisively when she wins, but she who is most difficult to defeat.

[Waazraath]

Sometimes we have to learn the hard way unfortunately (for your paladin especially). Out of curiosity what was it that did him in? If I had to guess it was probably a monster or effect that bypasses normal HP or death saves and does a straight to dead type of deal like a succubus' kiss or a beholder's death beam. Those are the kinds of things that I would normally find my group using revivify to fix.

Level 9 party, facing a lich that was hidden and casting spells through undead minions (I think 5 of them) which had a decent AC. Under normall circumstances it would have been a pretty deadly encouter, but in addition we had combination of a lot of bad luck (losing initiative, lots of bad rolls, including on saving throws, the pally going down first and without the saves aura we took much more damage from AoE's, distances just not working out so that enemies were just 5 ft too far or aura's 5 ft too short) and a few bad tactical decisions (realising too late what we were up against due to lich not being in view, not taking a short rest before this encounter on the note of 'oh well one more', the pally opening the door while being the one with the least hp, and not immediately yo-yo-healing the pally but waiting 2 turns, and then having the area hit with a AoE that was was the final straw that killed him).

1 room down the hall there was a portal, and the lich didn't follow in hot persuit but just threw some fireballs in our backs when we ran. But the fighter risked his behind to drag the body of the fallen comrade away, not wanting to abandon it to the lich (who knows what would have happened with it). I think it was 6 or 7 rounds after the pally died that we were through the portal, so I could have made it if I had the spell, and in this case, I had a lvl 3 slot left.

Bummer.

For the rest: ain't gonna argue against anybody here now :)

[MrStabby]

Some weeks (months?) ago, there was this thread on spells, and Revivify was discussed, I argued I never took it cause 1) I'd never needed it before, 2) a spell slot used to prevent everything going south is better spend than one repairing stuff when things have gone south already, and 3) how big are the odds that you can really use it, once everything has blown up aldready... need to recover the body, and be able to cast the spell within 1 minute.

Some of you kind folks expressed that this was all good and well, but that at the moment you do need the spell, I'd probably regret it.

Well... with hindsight, I think you may have had a point. I'm pretty sure my groups paladin is regretting that I didn't have it =|

Revify is useful as you discovered, sometimes.

That said, I think your analysis has an element of selection bias to it.

You have proven that there is the possability of an occasion where revify is more useful than other 3rd level spells. However to see this occasion you have to have other spells have failed. You are not comparing an average revify with an average other spell - you are saying revify is better than the other spell given that the other spell performed poorly enough to cause us to lose the fight.

You miss out on all the times where taking revify would have killed you - i.e. you always had access to one more spell due to not taking it. How many times did that other spell save someone?

If you were to change your spells round, would revify be the optimal spell to take? Would pass without trace have let you get the drop on the lich from a more advantagious position? Would commune have let you know a bit more about what you were facing? How about death ward? Absorb elements? Counterspell? Bless? (you can tell I don't know what class you were - between magical secrets and the abundance of background and racial spells, and being high enough level to face a lich, I hesitate to conclude you play a cleric).

Revify is useful, but there is competition for both the slots and the spells known.

[Corran]

I haven't read that other thread, but I can tell you that I dont agree with what you say you were suggesting there. Because I can certainly remember situations where keeping back on my resources spending (yes, at the cost of flirting with defeat more than if I hadn't) paid off later on. So it seemed like a good decision to do so. Though these are all examples, not arguments.

Similar to your revivify for emergencies condundrum, is the 'how many resources do I save for when I go to sleep in case I am ambushed during my long rest'.

This all verges close to the all in vs hedging your bets dilemma, but with a major differene. There will be plenty of middle steps in the dnd equivalent, that is encounters that gradually ask you to drain your resource pool, instead of deciding everything (that has to do with resource management) in the beginning of an unpredictable adventuring day. So to try to find a satisfactory solution, you first set the goal. If the goal is to try and win as big as you can, then spend all your resources without any hesitation. If your goal is to try and never have an ally die, then (and I am oversimplifying here for the sake of demostrating the two extreme scenarios), then try not to spend any resources other than those that will go to healing (and those only when absolutely necessary). Of course the goal is simply to win (and to win with high frequency you need to win efficiently if attrition is involved), and in uncertain enough scenarios hedging your bets starts becoming an intuitive practice. But what means to hedge my bet in dnd? Usually it means what you say in the op. I spend less resources during combat, and thus risking more the possibility of defeat, so that I have something left in my backpocket to prevent a major upset (in this case, character death). Think though that in certain scenarios it might mean something different. That is letting someone to die so that the party wins the encounters remaining (eg the difference between spending your slot on something that can really help you win the fight(s) remaining instead of casting revivify on a fallen ally). Though this last one is a very unlikely case IME and for my imagination.

You cannot know in general which one of spending or saving your resources will do the trick. You always need to answer that in regards to a very specific situation, and even then it will probably be very troublesome to reach a safe conclusion. The simplest thing to do is to mind the middle steps. That is each consecutive encounter that wants to drain our resource pool. And the plan is to win them using as few resources as possible (and where I say resources, count everything in, from slots and short rest abilities to hp and hit dice). And ideally do that in every encounter with an eye to what's up ahead (do your scouting if you can get away with it), cause you want to win as efficiently as possible a combination of encounters, and not win the first few ones at a terrible expense when it comes to the ones that follow. But anyway, this only helps you deal with the initial problem as it aims to save you resources. The problem of what to spend and what to save still exists, though with more resources in bank you are better equipped to deal with it. That is your mistakes wont cost you as much as if you had done a poorer resource management.

So, going back to the beginning, I'd say that you should get a feel of your campaign and your DM, set a theoritical reserve of resources based on that feel that you keep only for emergencies, and after that all you need to do is to keep an eye out for when you have to break your own rules and spend (part of) it. In other words, guesstimate your way through. Less time consuming and it hones your gaming instincts.

[KorvinStarmast]

My celestial warlock, when she was able to choose that spell, took it immediately and sold off some stuff to make sure she could purchase one diamond of 300 GP value so that she would be able to cast it.

Why?

1. Character death is a possible outcome in our game
2. The party had no cleric
3. When and if we ever do need it, it's the difference between one of my fellow players losing their PC and rerolling, and us getting them out of that mess. That, to me, is worth it a hundred times over because I focus on team success.

[Sigreid]

Consider talking to your DM about researching the formula to create a scroll for the spell. Best of all worlds, you aren't using a spell preparation slot for it, you aren't going to be out of spell slots when you need it, and you have it available for that hopefully rare case where you need it.

[Segev]

You miss out on all the times where taking revify would have killed you - i.e. you always had access to one more spell due to not taking it. How many times did that other spell save someone?Eh... part of what makes this a difficult thing to say definitively is that you can't say, "If I hadn't had revivify, I would definitely have had the one spell that could have saved us in this clutch scenario." At least, under most circumstances. If you had habitually prepared that specific spell, and decided to trade it out for revivify, then you could make that statement, but for people who habitually prepare revivify "just in case," it's impossible to say they definitely would have had this other spell, and that spell's lack cost them their lives.

It is a continual risk as players and white-room optimizers to assume that "just one more spell available" would always be precisely the one that is needed, rather than recognizing that it's possible that you'd have another spell that is equally unhelpful.


If you were to change your spells round, would revify be the optimal spell to take?This is more the right question. Specifically: what spell, given that you don't prepare it regularly now, would you trade out for it? Are there spells you have prepared that you also use very rarely, or that don't make a life-or-death difference when you do?

Somebody mentioned getting a scroll of it. Having 1-4 scrolls of revivify is an excellent compromise if you don't have the room to spare on your prepared-spells list.

I will say that one party combination I would love to see is a cleric with revivify and a Zealot Barbarian. I imagine that could be great fun.

[Guy Lombard-O]

I don't recall the thread. But having folks die because you passed on prepping Revivify does suck.

I'm currently playing a 5th level cleric, and I've decided to hedge my bets a bit. Instead of keeping Revivify prepped, I'm keeping Gentle Repose prepped.

I get that this decision isn't necessarily optimal, but my reasons are both mechanical and roleplay.

Mechanically speaking, it's difficult to save one of your highest level spell slots to cover the emergency of having somebody die in battle. Then, you've got to be able to raise them back up during the battle, which takes a round. Gentle Repose also takes a round, and gives you ten days to get the PC back up. While it's obviously superior to have the dead PC get back up and into the fight (even at 1 HP) with a Revivify (action economy/PC can help in battle/etc.), simply having the PC not-dead is a big benefit as well and can often wait until the outcome of the battle has been determined (presumably without TPK). At 5th level, you've got 2 third level spell slots, but 5 slots of either 2nd or 3rd level. So it's much easier and less limiting on play to manage to retain one of them to prevent true death.

Roleplay-wise, I also personally prefer to make it sort of a big deal for my character to rescue somebody from death through the divine power of my god. I make it a big ol' ritual, requiring both the crushed diamond and some additional, personal sacrifice from the dead PC (like pulling and crushing up a tooth from the dead PC). Not sure if the other players really appreciate this, of course. But hey, death should still be a big deal, even in tier 2 play. And it gives the act of bringing them back a lot more resonance than just a Cure Wounds style pop-up heal on the scene would.

EDIT: Also, sometimes you just don't have a 300-gp diamond handy.

[Valmark]

I don't recall the thread. But having folks die because you passed on prepping Revivify does suck.

I'm currently playing a 5th level cleric, and I've decided to hedge my bets a bit. Instead of keeping Revivify prepped, I'm keeping Gentle Repose prepped.

I get that this decision isn't necessarily optimal, but my reasons are both mechanical and roleplay.

Mechanically speaking, it's difficult to save one of your highest level spell slots to cover the emergency of having somebody die in battle. Then, you've got to be able to raise them back up during the battle, which takes a round. Gentle Repose also takes a round, and gives you ten days to get the PC back up. While it's obviously superior to have the dead PC get back up and into the fight (even at 1 HP) with a Revivify (action economy/PC can help in battle/etc.), simply having the PC not-dead is a big benefit as well and can often wait until the outcome of the battle has been determined (presumably without TPK). At 5th level, you've got 2 third level spell slots, but 5 slots of either 2nd or 3rd level. So it's much easier and less limiting on play to manage to retain one of them to prevent true death.

Roleplay-wise, I also personally prefer to make it sort of a big deal for my character to rescue somebody from death through the divine power of my god. I make it a big ol' ritual, requiring both the crushed diamond and some additional, personal sacrifice from the dead PC (like pulling and crushing up a tooth from the dead PC). Not sure if the other players really appreciate this, of course. But hey, death should still be a big deal, even in tier 2 play. And it gives the act of bringing them back a lot more resonance than just a Cure Wounds style pop-up heal on the scene would.

EDIT: Also, sometimes you just don't have a 300-gp diamond handy.

You probably want to do something different then removing a body part from the dead PC- assuming you use Raise Dead or Revify, they (the PC and possibly the player) could be a bit miffed about having to lose them needlessly.

[diplomancer]

Then, you've got to be able to raise them back up during the battle, which takes a round. (Snip)
EDIT: Also, sometimes you just don't have a 300-gp diamond handy.

Well, it might be better to wait until the battle's over, you DO have one full minute after all, which should be plenty (though in small parties might be best to bring him back up immediately; yay Celestial Warlock, that can do this and give him immediately 4d6 hit points to help him survive a bit longer)

[Waazraath]

That said, I think your analysis has an element of selection bias to it.

...

Revify is useful, but there is competition for both the slots and the spells known.

True, true... funny enough, I wrote an academic paper on selection bias some years ago, so I'm aware. I got (painfully) aware the situation where I miss it, but never been aware of all the situations where I was saved by having that 3rd level slot left (which you never know for certain existed or not, cause we don't do 'what if' history - I think this is also what Segev says in his later post). But at the very least, I'm positive I was wrong thinking I'd never need it. And given the feedback I got (also earlier), a lot of people ran in that situation and my estimation on the chance of needing it was pretty off.



So, going back to the beginning, I'd say that you should get a feel of your campaign and your DM, set a theoritical reserve of resources based on that feel that you keep only for emergencies, and after that all you need to do is to keep an eye out for when you have to break your own rules and spend (part of) it. In other words, guesstimate your way through. Less time consuming and it hones your gaming instincts.

Solid post. I think that one of the things which went wrong here was that we already had that feel: we steamrolled everything in the dungeon so far. It's not for naught that the pally thought it was safe to be the frontline door-opener with less than 50% health. And then you hit the over-your-head boss monster, with minions, in a (for the monster) tactical advantagous situation, and you loose initiative, and mess up important saving throws & attack rolls, and youre done. Of course you know that theoretically there always is a bigger fish, but we didn't expect it to be THIS BIG. Oh well, lesson learned for when we return :)



3. When and if we ever do need it, it's the difference between one of my fellow players losing their PC and rerolling, and us getting them out of that mess. That, to me, is worth it a hundred times over because I focus on team success.

I understand what you're saying, but in defense: saving that 3rd level slot to overcome a battle is of course also focussing on team succes, and meant to prevent somebody dying in the first place.


Consider talking to your DM about researching the formula to create a scroll for the spell. Best of all worlds, you aren't using a spell preparation slot for it, you aren't going to be out of spell slots when you need it, and you have it available for that hopefully rare case where you need it.

Good suggestion! I'm not optimistic for it in this campaign (no Ye Olde Magick Shoppe), but in general this is a great.


Specifically: what spell, given that you don't prepare it regularly now, would you trade out for it? Are there spells you have prepared that you also use very rarely, or that don't make a life-or-death difference when you do?


Fly. It was darn useful to be able to fly in the last adventure/dungeon we played, but it hasn't come up in this one once. I'll miss it though if we enter a large cave / room with a high ceiling, and the fighter and paladin won't be able to reach the flying baddie though. Oh no... don't need to worry about the pally anymore =/


snip

Alas, no 'gentle repose', I'm playing an Artificer. So only 8 spells prepared, from a large and strong list. Level 3 is the highest slot I can cast as well, so saving it for a potential revivify that wasn never needed before seemed wasteful.

Again:


If you were to change your spells round, would revify be the optimal spell to take? Would pass without trace have let you get the drop on the lich from a more advantagious position? Would commune have let you know a bit more about what you were facing? How about death ward? Absorb elements? Counterspell? Bless? (you can tell I don't know what class you were - between magical secrets and the abundance of background and racial spells, and being high enough level to face a lich, I hesitate to conclude you play a cleric).


So yeah, Artificer, level 9, Battle Smith. Spells prepared:
Level 1: shield, absorb elements, detect magic
Level 2: rope trick, enhance ability, see invisibility
Level 3: fly, haste
These spells pare partly chosen to fill in utility gaps the rest of the party can't provide (see inv, enhance ability, rope trick, fly, detect magic), partly defensive self buffs (shield/absorb elements), partly self buff or party member buff (haste). Other party members are a Battle Master fighter (PAM/Sentinel), Clockwork Sorcerer (blasting, buffing, creature removal with banishments/holds), and a formerly Vengance Paladin.

I'm doubting about the "high enough level to face a lich" :)

[Sigreid]

Yeah, I suggested asking about learning to make it assuming that if you could get one from the local 7-11 you already would have.

[1Pirate]

Was it this post (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?617137-Revivify-good-Why/page5&highlight=Revivify)?

The thing is, Revivify is kind of a catch all if a situation goes sideways. In that thread you mentioned a spell giving players an extra 10 hp keeping them up for another round being better than a spell that wakes up just one dead PC. But sometimes the hp isn’t the problem, it’s an incapacitation effect, or AoEs, or an insta-kill effect, or an inconvenient crevasse. Or in the case you stated, 10 hp wasn’t enough. Some combats aren’t meant to be won at all, but despite hints(or lack of hints) from the DM, players don’t figure it out until bodies start hitting the floor.

While there are spells to deal with most of the above mentioned situations, they are often not the same spell and not necessarily something you can predict. But these situations all have the same worst-case scenario: death. And Revivify deals with death.

[Granitecosmos]

I understand what you're saying, but in defense: saving that 3rd level slot to overcome a battle is of course also focussing on team succes, and meant to prevent somebody dying in the first place.
Have you considered a spell scroll as a compromise? Not the cheapest solution for sure but an option nonetheless.

[MaxWilson]

Solid post. I think that one of the things which went wrong here was that we already had that feel: we steamrolled everything in the dungeon so far. It's not for naught that the pally thought it was safe to be the frontline door-opener with less than 50% health. And then you hit the over-your-head boss monster, with minions, in a (for the monster) tactical advantagous situation, and you loose initiative, and mess up important saving throws & attack rolls, and youre done. Of course you know that theoretically there always is a bigger fish, but we didn't expect it to be THIS BIG. Oh well, lesson learned for when we return :)

I would say the issue here isn't that you didn't reserve enough resources, it's that you didn't have a way in this case to use your reserve. (Like having lots of gasoline and no car to put it in.)

As others have noted, it's hard to predict which spell is going to save your bacon--but the value of Revivify is that a lot of the ways things can go wrong have the same failure mode (PC dies), and this lets you activate your reserve for those cases. (Other failure modes may include "disintegrated", "dominated and turned against party", "turned to stone", and "separated from party, possibly also killed". Dispel Magic helps with some of those, Greater Restoration helps with others, and some are not solvable except full-on Wish.)

Another way to put this: if falling damage is 1% likely to kill somebody on this adventure, and poison damage is 3% likely, and being grappled is 2% likely, and enemy Fireballs are 5% likely, there's definitely an argument to be made that it would be good to prepare Feather Fall and Protection From Poison and Scatter and Minor Globe of Invulnerability so that those failure modes can be avoided (if you win initiative, etc.). But if you can't prepare all four of them, Revivify is a decent stand-in for all of them at once (as is Death Ward), mitigating 11% chance of death all at once, although the individual counters like Feather Fall do a better job of mitigating the resource drain of each respective threat.

[Guy Lombard-O]

Well, it might be better to wait until the battle's over, you DO have one full minute after all, which should be plenty (though in small parties might be best to bring him back up immediately; yay Celestial Warlock, that can do this and give him immediately 4d6 hit points to help him survive a bit longer)

By this: "you've got to be able to raise them back up during the battle"

I meant that this must be the situation in order for Revivify to be demonstrably better than Gentle Repose. If you're waiting until the battle is over (and you're not headed directly into the next one), then both spells are about equal in terms of preserving the PC as a viable character who can continue in the campaign. I suppose that if the battle is ended by the party fleeing, and nobody can port the temporarily-deceased, then Revivify is also better in that situation.

Which I guess is all academic to the OP, since GR isn't on his list? Oh well.

[Tanarii]

Well... with hindsight, I think you may have had a point. I'm pretty sure my groups paladin is regretting that I didn't have it =|Hilarious 😂😂😂

I just love you came back here to share after almost 7 months. And was not expecting this post to end this way. Well played sir. :smallamused:

[Rynjin]

Gonna throw another one on the pile of "You weren't necessarily wrong before". Limited timeslot "bring man back" effects are quite good, in general. They're very nice "hedge your bets" options.

But there is indeed an opportunity cost involved, and having a dead spell slot every single day is kind of a pain in the ass.


So sure, you didn't prepare Revivify, and now the Paladin is dead. That sucks.

The alternative would have been that for the last 7 months (a solid 28 sessions, if you play weekly) your character would have had one fewer spell slot every adventuring day. That sucks too. Except it sucks for a whooooole lot longer. Maybe not as badly as it sucks for the one guy who dies 7 months in, but I'll take short term (and potentially theoretical!) sucking for someone else (eat the cost for a Raise or make a new character, either way it's over by next session) over long term sucking for myself any day, frankly.

[MaxWilson]

The alternative would have been that for the last 7 months (a solid 28 sessions, if you play weekly) your character would have had one fewer spell slot every adventuring day.

I'm curious to know how many people frequently burn out all of their spell slots in every adventure. To me, reserving a couple of spell slots for contingencies doesn't seem like a big deal (and maybe this is why I sneer at stuff like Divine Smite, because it's a terrible use of spell slots that otherwise could have been reserved for contingencies). I know I'm not the only one who thinks this way, but I'm still curious... how many people reading this thread frequently end an adventure with zero spell slots left, when playing a spellcaster?

[Segev]

The alternative would have been that for the last 7 months (a solid 28 sessions, if you play weekly) your character would have had one fewer spell slot every adventuring day. That sucks too. Except it sucks for a whooooole lot longer. Maybe not as badly as it sucks for the one guy who dies 7 months in, but I'll take short term (and potentially theoretical!) sucking for someone else (eat the cost for a Raise or make a new character, either way it's over by next session) over long term sucking for myself any day, frankly.

It's worth noting that he had the third level spell slot, just not that spell prepared.

I wouldn't recommend specifically saving a spell SLOT to cast revivify, not over another immediately-useful third level spell you are refraining from using. But if you have it still and you need it, it's nice to have revivify prepared.

[Rynjin]

I'm curious to know how many people frequently burn out all of their spell slots in every adventure. To me, reserving a couple of spell slots for contingencies doesn't seem like a big deal (and maybe this is why I sneer at stuff like Divine Smite, because it's a terrible use of spell slots that otherwise could have been reserved for contingencies). I know I'm not the only one who thinks this way, but I'm still curious... how many people reading this thread frequently end an adventure with zero spell slots left, when playing a spellcaster?

When he's playing a character that he says only gets 8 spell slots? I'd imagine it happens pretty frequently.

And honestly, if you're NOT using all your spell slots, it's likely because the adventure is easy enough you don't need them...which means nobody is going to die anyway.

You get X number of spell slots every day; if you're only using X-Y spell slots, it's only because those resources either weren't needed (the content was easy), weren't usable (you chose too many situational spells), or you simply weren't making use of your entire kit properly. Resources are meant to be used.

[MrStabby]

Revify is pretty specific. The more I think about it the more I am unsure it is the right call.

It is hardly a panacaea.

1) To use it you must take enough of a beating in a fight for a PC to go down

2) That PC has to die - otherwise a healing spell is more efficient

3) The character with revify has to be alive to cast it - i.e. not a TPK

4) Characters cannot lose due to the party being split, or the caster might not be close enough

5) Characters cannot lose due to a disabling effect like hypnotic pattern or banishment

In my experience a party's ability to continue a fight plummets as it starts losing members, given that you lost a member and given that you couldn't save them... what is the probability that you survive without a TPK? It seems pretty narrow. Add to that that you need to be one of the surviving ones - if you spend a spell to give your side an advantage in the fight but later go down, then as a result your buddies can still win or at least be in a better position to recover a body as a result. It just seems like a really specific window.

If I were to be adding a spell to help prevent character death/discontinuation I think I would pick featherfall. Featherfall protects against a hazard that is either going to seperate someone from the rest of the party making them difficult to heal or the hazard is likely to incapacitate multiple party members. Any effect that moves the party about in a high environment in a battle can cause some real issues here.

[Unoriginal]

Consider talking to your DM about researching the formula to create a scroll for the spell. Best of all worlds, you aren't using a spell preparation slot for it, you aren't going to be out of spell slots when you need it, and you have it available for that hopefully rare case where you need it.

With the Xanathar's rules, you don't need a formula to scribe scrolls, so if you got the time and the money it's def. worthwhile.

[Corran]

In my experience a party's ability to continue a fight plummets as it starts losing members, given that you lost a member and given that you couldn't save them... what is the probability that you survive without a TPK?
I dont know about you, but I've seen it happen far more often than a TPK. Also, the usefulness of revivify expands when you are adventuring in places where if you die, it wont be convenient or even possible to get the dead pc resurrected (eg doing a big dungeoncrawl where having to go back sets back your progress or ruins whatever plan you had, or travelling through the mountains of one thousand orcs which are also far away from civilization, etc).

[1Pirate]

I'm curious to know how many people frequently burn out all of their spell slots in every adventure. To me, reserving a couple of spell slots for contingencies doesn't seem like a big deal (and maybe this is why I sneer at stuff like Divine Smite, because it's a terrible use of spell slots that otherwise could have been reserved for contingencies). I know I'm not the only one who thinks this way, but I'm still curious... how many people reading this thread frequently end an adventure with zero spell slots left, when playing a spellcaster?
It depends on the session, but I've often ended with zero spell slots before getting an opportunity to long rest.

And in a Curse of Strahd campaign I DM'd, my PCs were frequently running out. Come to think of it, that also happened a lot in the Descent into Avernus campaign, but that group had a disproportionate number of paladins.

[Sigreid]

With the Xanathar's rules, you don't need a formula to scribe scrolls, so if you got the time and the money it's def. worthwhile.

Good to know. Still need to be sure the DM is okie dokie with it.

[MaxWilson]

When he's playing a character that he says only gets 8 spell slots? I'd imagine it happens pretty frequently.

And honestly, if you're NOT using all your spell slots, it's likely because the adventure is easy enough you don't need them...which means nobody is going to die anyway.


Or you're choosing to spend other things instead of spell slots, e.g. HP, magic items, gold, risk of failed saving throws, opportunity costs. If you rely on one Conjure Earth Elemental instead of two Walls of Force, that elemental can be killed in a sufficiently-tough fight (you're paying in risk) and doesn't block ranged attacks (you're paying in HP), but in return you get to hang on to the other 5th level spell slot for a real emergency.

Also remember that due to concentration and action economy there are diminishing returns on spell slots.

The question stands: how often do you, Rynjin, finish an adventure or day with zero spell slots/spell points left? I'm curious, about you and everyone else.


In my experience a party's ability to continue a fight plummets as it starts losing members, given that you lost a member and given that you couldn't save them... what is the probability that you survive without a TPK? It seems pretty narrow. Add to that that you need to be one of the surviving ones - if you spend a spell to give your side an advantage in the fight but later go down, then as a result your buddies can still win or at least be in a better position to recover a body as a result. It just seems like a really specific window.

IMO breaking contact can be pretty easy if the PCs plan for it (one reason I hate playing dwarves--they are slow!). You don't necessarily have to win a fight for Revivify to be useful, you just need to recover the body and get out of the fight. If the party has made good use of spells like e.g. Longstrider, breaking contact can be as simple as picking up your friend's body and Dashing away (taking an opportunity attack or two).

Sometimes escaping a fight is a lot easier than winning that fight here and now.


It depends on the session, but I've often ended with zero spell slots before getting an opportunity to long rest.

And in a Curse of Strahd campaign I DM'd, my PCs were frequently running out. Come to think of it, that also happened a lot in the Descent into Avernus campaign, but that group had a disproportionate number of paladins.

Not surprising I guess. Using Divine Smite is usually a mistake (especially on a non-crit) because it's so expensive for the tiny amount of damage you get.

[MrStabby]

I dont know about you, but I've seen it happen far more often than a TPK. Also, the usefulness of revivify expands when you are adventuring in places where if you die, it wont be convenient or even possible to get the dead pc resurrected (eg doing a big dungeoncrawl where having to go back sets back your progress or ruins whatever plan you had, or travelling through the mountains of one thousand orcs which are also far away from civilization, etc).

So I see PCs hit zero HP quite a bit more often than a TPK, but not a PC death without a TPK (or at least multiple deaths).

[Rynjin]

Or you're choosing to spend other things instead of spell slots, e.g. HP, magic items, gold, risk of failed saving throws, opportunity costs. If you rely on one Conjure Earth Elemental instead of two Walls of Force, that elemental can be killed in a tough fight (you're paying in risk) and doesn't block ranged attacks (you're paying in HP), but in return you get to hang on to the other 5th level spell slot for a real emergency.

Also remember that due to concentration and action economy there are diminishing returns on spell slots.

The question stands: how often do you, Rynjin, finish an adventure or day with zero spell slots/spell points left? I'm curious, about you and everyone else.

Every couple of sessions, when I'm playing a caster. Maybe every 3 sessions if I play a Spontaneous caster who's not a blaster. This holds true whether I'm playing with traditional casting styles or spell point styles (like Spheres of Power).

Mind, I primarily play Pathfinder, not 5e. For my 5e experience only, the answer would be "never" (or "always" depending on your perspective) as the only 5e caster I played was Warlock. =p

When we played through Tales of the Yawning Portal, the other casters in the group were similarly rung out over the course of a day too, though. The only caster I remember playing with who typically didn't use all (or at least most) of their slots was in the Icewind Dale game I played to 12, the Druid was typically holding out on us (read: they spent most of their time in Wild Shape).

[MaxWilson]

So I see PCs hit zero HP quite a bit more often than a TPK, but not a PC death without a TPK (or at least multiple deaths).

Sometimes it's just as simple as a tactical mistake plus poor luck on the dice combined with a big scary monster like a Chasme. One auto-crit on an unconscious PC later, and now the PC is down 102 HP, including 67 HP of max HP reduction (until a long rest).

Also I don't cap damage at HP--i.e. you can go to negative HP instead of just zero HP--so pop-up healing doesn't work. Players adjust, but this still probably makes death more common than at tables running PHB RAW whack-a-mole.

Then there's the other kind of tactical mistake where a player takes on something that they should have the good sense not to mess with, or otherwise pushes their luck too far.

Or gets eaten by an intellect devourer, or teleported by a Meazel deeper into the dungeon and then killed by Shadows. Etc.


Every couple of sessions, when I'm playing a caster. Maybe every 3 sessions if I play a Spontaneous caster who's not a blaster. This holds true whether I'm playing with traditional casting styles or spell point styles (like Spheres of Power).

Mind, I primarily play Pathfinder, not 5e. For my 5e experience only, the answer would be "never" (or "always" depending on your perspective) as the only 5e caster I played was Warlock. =p

When we played through Tales of the Yawning Portal, the other casters in the group were similarly rung out over the course of a day too, though. The only caster I remember playing with who typically didn't use all (or at least most) of their slots was in the Icewind Dale game I played to 12, the Druid was typically holding out on us (read: they spent most of their time in Wild Shape).

Ah. I'm asking about 5E especially, because concentration and short spell durations act as a rate limiter on how quickly you can and should efficiently spend power.

[Tanarii]

So I see PCs hit zero HP quite a bit more often than a TPK, but not a PC death without a TPK (or at least multiple deaths).
You must have nice DMs that don't ever attack a PC that is at 0 HPs.

Edit: that sounded more attack-y than intended. There are lots of nice DMs out there that do exactly that, and there's nothing wrong with it. But if you ever encounter one of the not-so-nice ones that do it (for whatever reason), it's really dangerous.

[MrStabby]

I'm curious to know how many people frequently burn out all of their spell slots in every adventure. To me, reserving a couple of spell slots for contingencies doesn't seem like a big deal (and maybe this is why I sneer at stuff like Divine Smite, because it's a terrible use of spell slots that otherwise could have been reserved for contingencies). I know I'm not the only one who thinks this way, but I'm still curious... how many people reading this thread frequently end an adventure with zero spell slots left, when playing a spellcaster?

I usually keep a few left over, at least from tier 2 onwards. I try and hold off in combat a bit - we have fighters and their ilk for that kind of grunt-work. Sometimes at night there are attacks, so having some resources to hand then is useful.

[MrStabby]

You must have nice DMs that don't ever attack a PC that is at 0 HPs.

Not really. If a PC goes down they get attacked, but they tend to go down towards the end of fights where there are fewer enemies in initative and there is more chance to get them on their feet again or if it is a bit of a surprise turn of events throw down a bigger effect like wall of force.

When the party can't protect a downed player it is usually a sign of lack of resources to do so - either in terms of spells, abilities or HP. Given the lack of resources and an enemy that is taking down players it explains why TPKs can happen.

Last TPK involved the DM counterspelling a dimension door to try and get us out, so I wouldn't describe them as "nice". It wasn't unfair or anything, we knew they were packing counterspell but sometimes you need to roll the dice and see what happens.

[Tanarii]

Not really. If a PC goes down they get attacked, but they tend to go down towards the end of fights where there are fewer enemies in initative and there is more chance to get them on their feet again or if it is a bit of a surprise turn of events throw down a bigger effect like wall of force.

When the party can't protect a downed player it is usually a sign of lack of resources to do so - either in terms of spells, abilities or HP. Given the lack of resources and an enemy that is taking down players it explains why TPKs can happen.

Are you not using the default "monsters go, PCs go" initiative that results from treating all enemies as one initiative roll? Because that'd make a big difference.

[Valmark]

By this: "you've got to be able to raise them back up during the battle"

I meant that this must be the situation in order for Revivify to be demonstrably better than Gentle Repose. If you're waiting until the battle is over (and you're not headed directly into the next one), then both spells are about equal in terms of preserving the PC as a viable character who can continue in the campaign. I suppose that if the battle is ended by the party fleeing, and nobody can port the temporarily-deceased, then Revivify is also better in that situation.

Which I guess is all academic to the OP, since GR isn't on his list? Oh well.

Not really equal- Revify will bring the character back immediately, Gentle Repose presumably just makes sure you'll be able to bring them back until when you can get whatever other spell you're going to use.

I say presumably because of Gentle Repose's component- you need to place copper pieces on the eyes and make sure they stay there. Unless you can tie them up tightly I can see a lot of situations where a DM could mess with the party.

And something could happen to the corpse, though I find that mostly unlikely.


Are you not using the default "monsters go, PCs go" initiative that results from treating all enemies as one initiative roll? Because that'd make a big difference.

Isn't it all enemies with the same name? Because that makes a whole lot of difference.

[MrStabby]

Are you not using the default "monsters go, PCs go" initiative that results from treating all enemies as one initiative roll? Because that'd make a big difference.

Is this the default?

I have been rolling for each enemy type seperately - I know others do to. Have I been playing a variant rule all along without knowing?

[Theodoxus]

One reason I've never been able to play a Cleric without going Life... best campaign ever was when we had a Zealot on the team... 5th level meant he could (and would) go absolutely berserk crazy, grabbing up ALL the aggro, Reckless Attacking everything and getting pummeled into the dirt. Once he was dead (usually near the end of the combat), I'd waltz in, Rez him 'for free' and he couldn't be happier. It was a bit of a '15 minute' adventuring day, as he'd use up all his rages in the first couple of combats, but the DM thought it was hilarious and we didn't really have any other nova types to ruin the one guys fun.

[Jerrykhor]

This brings a thought - Revivify is a good bonus spell on the Domain/Circle/Oath spells since you don't need to prepare it, and you cannot be without it.

[Valmark]

Is this the default?

I have been rolling for each enemy type seperately - I know others do to. Have I been playing a variant rule all along without knowing?

Nah, checking the PHB it's the way you've been doing it- same enemies share initiative, but not all monsters share the same.

Though it can still be a "problem" if you have a lot of the same type of creature.

[MaxWilson]

Is this the default?

I have been rolling for each enemy type seperately - I know others do to. Have I been playing a variant rule all along without knowing?

Huh. I don't use PHB initiative at the table, only in forum discussions/theorycrafting, but apparently my idea of RAW was actually a variant all along: I was rolling each monster separately.

"The DM makes one roll for an entire group of identical creatures, so each member of the group acts at the same time."

This means that it's actually RAW and not just a DM shortcut for 16 wolves to share one initiative roll. How peculiar. That makes Bardic Inspiration and Cutting Words even more powerful (by RAW) than before.

Even in forum threads I've seen this, e.g. someone will post a tactical challenge with an initiative order like "Cleric, Fighter, Yuan-ti Abomination #1, Wizard, Yuan-ti Abomination #2", but by that RAW both Abominations are supposed to go, either both before or both after the wizard.

-Max

[PhoenixPhyre]

To clarify: They share one initiative roll, yes. But not one turn. That's a mistake I see a lot of people make. Monsters 1-3 move, then they all attack. Instead of the proper monster 1 moves and attacks, then monster 2, then monster 3 sequence.

And yes, I know that you, MaxWilson know this. But many don't.

Edit: looking at the text, I see it's more ambiguous than I thought. I'll have to think about that more.

[MrStabby]

Huh. I don't use PHB initiative at the table, only in forum discussions/theorycrafting, but apparently my idea of RAW was actually a variant all along: I was rolling each monster separately.

"The DM makes one roll for an entire group of identical creatures, so each member of the group acts at the same time."

This means that it's actually RAW and not just a DM shortcut for 16 wolves to share one initiative roll. How peculiar. That makes Bardic Inspiration and Cutting Words even more powerful (by RAW) than before.

Even in forum threads I've seen this, e.g. someone will post a tactical challenge with an initiative order like "Cleric, Fighter, Yuan-ti Abomination #1, Wizard, Yuan-ti Abomination #2", but by that RAW both Abominations are supposed to go, either both before or both after the wizard.

-Max

Well if you were to roll for HP for the monsters then it is likely that they would not be identical.

If you were to factor in other properties like mood or location or what they had for breakfast then there is also likely to be some variation there.

[Tanarii]

Is this the default?

I have been rolling for each enemy type seperately - I know others do to. Have I been playing a variant rule all along without knowing?
No you have not. I wrote what I meant poorly, each enemy type is indeed correct.

In terms of consecutive enemy actions, I guess the order of danger is: few creatures; many creatures, many types; many creatures, few types.

[KorvinStarmast]

I know I'm not the only one who thinks this way, but I'm still curious... how many people reading this thread frequently end an adventure with zero spell slots left, when playing a spellcaster? As rarely as possible. Happens a bit a levels 1 and 2, but I like to keep, for example, a healing word (to get someone off the floor) or fog cloud (to try and cover an escap) as the last reserve just in case.

[Thunderous Mojo]

Gentle Repose I think is the spell I would prepare over Revivify, if need only one of the two spells. (I refer to the Gentle Repose spell "The Flavor Sealer").🃏

Revivify is useful when you need someone to be up and count as a creature, for a Word of Recall retreat, or something of a similar ilk. This can, certainly, occur..which is in part why Revivify is useful.

If you are not worried about getting your friend's corpse ambulatory, then you just need to Flavor Seal the corpse in under a minute. Once that is accomplished you have 10 days to cast Revivify later.

It also stops the DM from using Danse Macabre to steal fallen comrades's corpses.☠️

[Theodoxus]

Gentle Repose I think is the spell I would prepare over Revivify, if need only one of the two spells. (I refer to the Gentle Repose spell "The Flavor Sealer").🃏

Revivify is useful when you need someone to be up and count as a creature, for a Word of Recall retreat, or something of a similar ilk. This can, certainly, occur..which is in part why Revivify is useful.

If you are not worried about getting your friend's corpse ambulatory, then you just need to Flavor Seal the corpse in under a minute. Once that is accomplished you have 10 days to cast Revivify later.

It also stops the DM from using Danse Macabre to steal fallen comrades's corpses.☠️

Just curious, how do you keep the copper pieces on the corpses eyes while hiking them out of the bowels of a dungeon, or do you just handwave that difficulty?

[Segev]

Just curious, how do you keep the copper pieces on the corpses eyes while hiking them out of the bowels of a dungeon, or do you just handwave that difficulty?

Very firm blindfold?

[Captain Panda]

Some weeks (months?) ago, there was this thread on spells, and Revivify was discussed, I argued I never took it cause 1) I'd never needed it before, 2) a spell slot used to prevent everything going south is better spend than one repairing stuff when things have gone south already, and 3) how big are the odds that you can really use it, once everything has blown up aldready... need to recover the body, and be able to cast the spell within 1 minute.

Some of you kind folks expressed that this was all good and well, but that at the moment you do need the spell, I'd probably regret it.

Well... with hindsight, I think you may have had a point. I'm pretty sure my groups paladin is regretting that I didn't have it =|

Revivify is like featherfall. Most days you won't need it and will wonder why you're wasting a prepared slot on it. But when you need it, oh boy you really need it. I've used it a few times.

If nothing else things like featherfall and revivify are insurance against feeling FOMO, because you'll feel a great deal of grumpiness if you need it and don't have it, a lot more than you'll feel if you have it and don't need it.

[KorvinStarmast]

I have been rolling for each enemy type seperately - I know others do to. Have I been playing a variant rule all along without knowing? That's what I do, and if I have a really big hord of monsters, I tend to break them into groups of 4 or 5 for initiative purposes.
This brings a thought - Revivify is a good bonus spell on the Domain/Circle/Oath spells since you don't need to prepare it, and you cannot be without it. Absolutely. One of the reasons that I have played life clerics; they really are a good domain.

[Thunderous Mojo]

Just curious, how do you keep the copper pieces on the corpses eyes while hiking them out of the bowels of a dungeon, or do you just handwave that difficulty?
Typically I use viscoelastic polymers...otherwise known as pitch.😀
Pitch is a material component for the Darkness spell, which also happens to be on my cleric's spell list as I have the Dragonmark of Shadow race.

Excellent point, however:
be wary of opponents with Mage Hand taking the coins from your friend's eyes.🪙👁

[Waazraath]

Was it this post (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?617137-Revivify-good-Why/page5&highlight=Revivify)?


Yeah! Or actually, a number of post just before this one, which I made as a reaction.


Hilarious 😂😂😂

I just love you came back here to share after almost 7 months. And was not expecting this post to end this way. Well played sir. :smallamused:

Glad you enjoyed it :smallwink: I'd forgotten it was that long ago. And I think the that in the end, we didn't played that well, alas :)

Maybe an extra bit of info, thinking about it: when I wrote that post, I was playing a Tempest Cleric in the first part of OotA. Without wanting to give spoilering, I think it was in the semi-last big fight when I spend all my slots, and did over 150 damage with my last spirit guardians. It made a big difference. So I was really thrilled with what level 3 spells could do in combat when used to their max, and not eager to save one of these slots (and spell choices) for 'just in case'.


This thread had by now a lot of interesting things on resource management. It makes me re-evaluate spell choices for this specific character, in this campaign, in this party. My artificer most often spends turns shooting 3 or 4 (hasted) crossbow bolts in enemies, and positioning himself and his Steel Defender in the best way possible. I don't really /need/ the spell slots, not like my Cleric needed Spiritual Weapon or Spirit Guardians, or maximized shatters. Since the party's only healing is a paladin, spending some slots/spell choices on those spells probably fits better than e.g. Enhance Ability or Fly (hardly used the former and the latter not at all). As ever, it's not as easy as "always have it" or "never take it", but context and all that. Oh yeah, and one always, that is "always buy a scroll of revivify if possible".