What are the consequences of dropping 48,000 lbs of water on someone?

[SangoProduction]

Spheres of Power has Mass Liquid Generation under the Creation sphere. Roughly 8k lbs of water per caster level. So I can conjure up to roughly 48k lbs of water above peoples' heads in an accelerated torrent.

But there doesn't seem to be any rule set I can find for this type of thing?

[One Step Two]

I believe it comes under the Falling Objects rules (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#fallingObjects), I believe these were further expanded in Dungeonscape, if you're aware of the object falling you get a DC 15 reflex save to dodge out of the way, but I can't confirm that at the moment.

Edit: More information (https://what-if.xkcd.com/12/) of what happens when you drop a large mass of water all at once.

[Gorthawar]

.. So I can conjure up to roughly 48k lbs of water above peoples' heads in an accelerated torrent.

I don't know anything about Spheres of Power but the general rule in Dnd and Pathfinder is that you cannot conjure anything floating in the air. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it. If there is anything around that the falling object damage might be your best bet indeed.

[TheStranger]

Okay... if my math is right that’s about 800 cubic feet of water. Or a little less than a 10’ cube. So it’s a lot of water, but not as much as you might think.

Anyway, water being a very displaceable substance, I’d probably start by assuming that the impact of water hitting a person isn’t all that different from the impact of a person hitting water. Imagine jumping off a diving board and hitting awkwardly - it might not feel good, but it’s unlikely to cause real damage (strange things can happen and I’m sure people have been seriously hurt by this, but that’s not the norm). But if you jump from a great height, hitting the water can cause some real damage because the deceleration is faster than the displacement. But people are also able to dive from great heights without injury as long as they hit the water correctly.

The difference between being hit by 48,000 lbs of falling water and 48,000 lbs of falling rock, obviously, is that in one case you’re crushed under a pile of rocks and in the other you’re left sitting in a puddle. So you can’t really use the falling object damage rules. Think of it like this - if I throw a 1-lb rock and a 1-lb water ballon at you, which will hurt more?

In game terms, I’d start with a reflex save to avoid being knocked prone, something like DC 10 plus 1 for each 10 feet the water fell from. But I’d make the actual damage pretty modest. Something like no damage from less than 20 feet, 1d6 from 20-50 feet, and 2d6 from higher than that. If the spell creates the water at velocity, I’d just say 2d6 and a reflex save as normal for the spell level. That’s completely off the top of my head though.

[MR_Anderson]

This is a unique situation and a DM ruling would probably be required. First if you could summon in the air, then on damage/effects.

There are many factors to consider, and since I know of no real in-game mechanics that cover a large amount of liquid falling, just like there isn’t anything that describes 48,000 lbs of feathers being dropped, I would have to make the call.

I would rule summoning it higher than 100’ has diminishing returns on damage against Fire based creatures, but it would have an increased effect as an erosion or knockdown tactic, the reason being it isn’t one object but many many very small objects, and the characteristics of falling water would turn it into a low powered jet stream.

As the DM I would rule that the Water deals no damage to most creatures. The creatures that take damage would be fire based, and the books already provide a means for that.

In addition to fire based creatures, the following would also be effected:

Those that are earth based or made of non solid form would take damage from erosion type damage if fitting, probably save for no damage and failed save yielding 1/2 damage of that of a fire-creature. I would increase it to full damage and save for half if dropped over 100 feet.
Flying creatures would get a Reflex save or be knocked to the ground, suffering fall damage, and being knocked prone.
Creatures on the ground would receive a Reflex save with modifier for ground material. (Soft would make the DC easier while stone or metal would make it harder.) A fail save would knock a creature prone and possibly push the creature to a new location or off a cliff.
It is possible that the ground conditions could become bog or swamp like reducing movement speeds or creating trip hazards, ride checks, or similar effects.


This may not be the answer you are looking for, but this basically is the maximum effect initially looking at it as I would rule.

A better tactic with it might be to trap a creature in a low ground area and then summon the water followed by a wall effect on top to drown the target.

[Xei_Win_Toh]

I don't see why it wouldn't just use the Creation sphere's rules for falling object damage. 48,000 lbs puts it within the weight limit of a Colossal object, so 5d6 base, probably halve it for counting as soft. It's liquid, so it wouldn't trap creatures under it or anything. Everything that takes damage should probably count as wet for the purposes of e.g. Nature sphere's Freeze ability.

[TheStranger]

I don't see why it wouldn't just use the Creation sphere's rules for falling object damage. 48,000 lbs puts it within the weight limit of a Colossal object, so 5d6 base, probably halve it for counting as soft. It's liquid, so it wouldn't trap creatures under it or anything. Everything that takes damage should probably count as wet for the purposes of e.g. Nature sphere's Freeze ability.

It’s not just soft, though, it’s liquid. Most of that mass simply flows around the creature it hits rather than delivering any damage.

[SangoProduction]

Okay... if my math is right that’s about 800 cubic feet of water. Or a little less than a 10’ cube. So it’s a lot of water, but not as much as you might think.

Anyway, water being a very displaceable substance, I’d probably start by assuming that the impact of water hitting a person isn’t all that different from the impact of a person hitting water. Imagine jumping off a diving board and hitting awkwardly - it might not feel good, but it’s unlikely to cause real damage (strange things can happen and I’m sure people have been seriously hurt by this, but that’s not the norm). But if you jump from a great height, hitting the water can cause some real damage because the deceleration is faster than the displacement. But people are also able to dive from great heights without injury as long as they hit the water correctly.

The difference between being hit by 48,000 lbs of falling water and 48,000 lbs of falling rock, obviously, is that in one case you’re crushed under a pile of rocks and in the other you’re left sitting in a puddle. So you can’t really use the falling object damage rules. Think of it like this - if I throw a 1-lb rock and a 1-lb water ballon at you, which will hurt more?

In game terms, I’d start with a reflex save to avoid being knocked prone, something like DC 10 plus 1 for each 10 feet the water fell from. But I’d make the actual damage pretty modest. Something like no damage from less than 20 feet, 1d6 from 20-50 feet, and 2d6 from higher than that. If the spell creates the water at velocity, I’d just say 2d6 and a reflex save as normal for the spell level. That’s completely off the top of my head though.

Huh. My math said, and is saying that a 5-foot cube was about 8,000 pounds. 7,803.50 to be precise.

So...yeah, ok, you're not wrong. Just looking at it from a different perspective, my bad.

[JNAProductions]

Huh. My math said, and is saying that a 5-foot cube was about 8,000 pounds. 7,803.50 to be precise.

So...yeah, ok, you're not wrong. Just looking at it from a different perspective, my bad.

Each Cubic Foot of water is 28.3 kg, according to Wolfram Alpha. That's 62.39 lbs, again, thanks to Wolfram Alpha.

So I'm getting 769.35 cubic feet of water.

Plugging that back into Wolfram Alpha, that's 48,061 lbs of water, or a cube 9.163 feet to a side.

Which makes sense. We close to doubled the length of a side, but since it's cubed, it increases by a heck of a lot more than double!

Wolfram Alpha (https://www.wolframalpha.com/) is really useful for this kind of math, by the way. It's awesome!

[SangoProduction]

Each Cubic Foot of water is 28.3 kg, according to Wolfram Alpha. That's 62.39 lbs, again, thanks to Wolfram Alpha.

So I'm getting 769.35 cubic feet of water.

Plugging that back into Wolfram Alpha, that's 48,061 lbs of water, or a cube 9.163 feet to a side.

Which makes sense. We close to doubled the length of a side, but since it's cubed, it increases by a heck of a lot more than double!

Wolfram Alpha (https://www.wolframalpha.com/) is really useful for this kind of math, by the way. It's awesome!

Cubic feet =/= feet-long cubes.
aka, volume is not equal to the measure of a side.

[JNAProductions]

Cubic feet =/= feet-long cubes.
aka, volume is not equal to the measure of a side.

Yes... I know.

Is there an error in my math? Because a cube 9.163 feet to a side has a volume of 769.33 cubic feet. Which isn't precisely what I wrote, but is close enough that it's almost certainly a rounding error on this end.

[SangoProduction]

Oh, wait. I misread your response - I moved the decimal over one place.
My bad. No. I agreed that you that it is less than a 10ft cube.
I had 6 5-foot cubes vs the needed 8 5-foot cubes for a 10ft cube

[JNAProductions]

Oh, wait. I misread your response - I moved the decimal over one place.
My bad. No. I agreed that you that it is less than a 10ft cube.
I had 6 5-foot cubes vs the needed 8 5-foot cubes for a 10ft cube

It happens, no worries. :)

[Psyren]

I don't know anything about Spheres of Power but the general rule in Dnd and Pathfinder is that you cannot conjure anything floating in the air. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.

This - otherwise you don't even need water and spheres, you could just summon an elephant in midair or something.

[SangoProduction]

This - otherwise you don't even need water and spheres, you could just summon an elephant in midair or something.

It is explicitly possible to summon things in the air with Creation sphere.

[Psyren]

It is explicitly possible to summon things in the air with Creation sphere.

Interesting design choice.

[Maat Mons]

I don't know…. I'm looking at pictures of helicopters dropping water on things. And it looks like it starts dispersing pretty fast. The internet says some of the beefier helicopters carry buckets with over 20,000 pounds of water in them. So it's probably a good comparison.

[Psyren]

I don't know…. I'm looking at pictures of helicopters dropping water on things. And it looks like it starts dispersing pretty fast. The internet says some of the beefier helicopters carry buckets with over 20,000 pounds of water in them. So it's probably a good comparison.

It still weighs a ton (several in fact). Google the Notre-Dame Cathedral fire from 2019 and why dumping water on it just wasn't an option. So the, let's say more hit-point-damaging aspects would remain.

[RNightstalker]

I don't know…. I'm looking at pictures of helicopters dropping water on things. And it looks like it starts dispersing pretty fast. The internet says some of the beefier helicopters carry buckets with over 20,000 pounds of water in them. So it's probably a good comparison.

I agree...you drop that much water from 100 feet up and it'll feel like a quick summer downpour, and that's about it.

[Zaq]

Sandstorm has the flash flood spell, which lays out what happens when you conjure up a massive quantity of water at once. You can argue that by RAW those rules only apply to that specific spell, but in the absence of more useful rules, they could be a jumping-off point.

[Clementx]

If you can actually get the water to appear at a valid height per Conjuration rules, then it would deal damage exactly as falling into that water from that height, as above, once you get a volume greater than the creatures space. Until then, you are just soaking that great wyrm dragon.

Dmg says 1d6/20ft for falling into water. If you have a rule for remaining on your feet after a fall, use that to stay upright under the torrent (I used Fort save DC10+damage dealt).

[Mechalich]

Wildland firefighters occasionally get hit by air support drops actually. It's miserable (especially because they don't use pure water but rather a mixture that has additional cohesion to absorb more heat and is more like slime) and can bruise, but doesn't cause serious damage, especially if the targets brace.

[Kitsuneymg]

Toss me in the “makes them wet and not much else” group. If you want a better answer though, ask in the SoP discord server. It’s linked from the wiki.

[Feldar]

I'm in the makes them wet, knocks them down, and maybe causes some subdual damage camp.

[Weasel of Doom]

Water might be a liquid but it's no safer than falling onto concrete if you're going fast enough.
Falling into water isn't the same as water falling onto you though, any large quantity of water is going to be broken up as it falls through the air.

What's the range on Mass Liquid Generation? What altitude can you get?
Too low and you want have the time to build up enough velocity (it'll be no more dangerous than jumping into a swimming pool). Too high and it'll disperse as it drops through the air (it'll be no more dangerous than heavy rain). Maybe there's a goldilocks zone in the middle where you could kill someone but it's equally possible the water will disperse before it gets enough velocity to be dangerous.

I'd probably use whatever the system's rules are for falling into water but cap the damage at 2d6 or 3d6, with a roll to avoid being knocked prone +/- slowed by mud depending on the ground.


Wildland firefighters occasionally get hit by air support drops actually.
Yeah, it's not uncommon in places that use a lot of firefighting aircraft BUT one of the key safety measures is to drop the load from high enough that it breaks up before it hits the ground.
There was a case in Cali a few years back where a plane was flying too low and one of the firefighters caught in the drop was killed (this doesn't answer the question about whether Mass Liquid Generation can kill though, fire planes can drop something like 80,000L and it'll have like 100km/h of horizontal velocity as well as vertical).

[SangoProduction]

Max range is 45 ft, although Created Momentum also has the following effects.

When creating an object and dropping it on a target at the same time, the falling object never deals half damage for distance, no matter how short the fall, and only needs to fall 75 feet to deal double damage. Additionally, you may create an object and hurl it sideways or even upwards, making attacks with it in a manner similar to a projectile ranged weapon. When used in this way the weapon does not deal increased damage for distance fallen, but has a range increment of 40 feet when determining range penalties, determined from the location where it is created. If it is created adjacent to yourself, you may use Dexterity instead of Intelligence as normal when calculating your ranged attack bonus.

The normal rules for falling created objects is: An object falling less than 30 feet also deals half falling damage, while an object falling more than 150 feet deals double falling damage.

[Elkad]

If you are standing, only the water directly over you hits you. You can't count the whole 10' cube.
Only about a square foot times the height.

The water to the sides does impede the water over you (or under you when diving) from pushing aside, which is why you feel the force more when the velocity is higher.
Which means when it breaks up falling a long distance, that matters a lot less.

Assuming you see it coming, I'd go straight for falling damage into water. Complete with Swim check to reduce the damage.
Eliminate the depth check, because you can't hit the bottom.

Plus a Bull Rush check to knock you prone (maybe only if you fail the Swim check?)

[GeoffWatson]

If it was suitable for attacking with it would have damage and saving throws listed (or attack rolls, whatever). So it's not.

[tomandtish]

Water might be a liquid but it's no safer than falling onto concrete if you're going fast enough.
Falling into water isn't the same as water falling onto you though, any large quantity of water is going to be broken up as it falls through the air.

What's the range on Mass Liquid Generation? What altitude can you get?
Too low and you want have the time to build up enough velocity (it'll be no more dangerous than jumping into a swimming pool). Too high and it'll disperse as it drops through the air (it'll be no more dangerous than heavy rain). Maybe there's a goldilocks zone in the middle where you could kill someone but it's equally possible the water will disperse before it gets enough velocity to be dangerous.

I'd probably use whatever the system's rules are for falling into water but cap the damage at 2d6 or 3d6, with a roll to avoid being knocked prone +/- slowed by mud depending on the ground.


Yeah, it's not uncommon in places that use a lot of firefighting aircraft BUT one of the key safety measures is to drop the load from high enough that it breaks up before it hits the ground.
There was a case in Cali a few years back where a plane was flying too low and one of the firefighters caught in the drop was killed (this doesn't answer the question about whether Mass Liquid Generation can kill though, fire planes can drop something like 80,000L and it'll have like 100km/h of horizontal velocity as well as vertical).

I found two (https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-mendocino-complex-death-20180914-story.html) cases (https://wildlandfirefighter.com/2018/08/21/utah-firefighter-killed-after-water-drop/) of firefighters being killed in drops. Both were killed by debris, caused by the drop, which is not the same as being killed by the weight of the liquid itself. And one of the articles indicates that this is how deaths tend to occur during drops. The drop dislodges something and the something kills the person.

So environment is probably a significant factor.

[daremetoidareyo]

Conjure it in a giant column so that the force is constant?

[Eldonauran]

I've been on the receiving end of a small pool of water busting through the sidewall and dumping down on me from about the height of 10ft. When I say small pool, I mean about 5ft deep and around 18feet in diameter. I was a teenager at the time. Don't ask me why I was in such a position to be on the receiving end of that. We all do dumb stuff as teenagers.

If the water is going to do any damage to you, its in the initial impact where it transfers its energy into you, and that energy bounces you off the ground. I remember getting hit by the small wall of water, being knocked to the ground, bouncing up and over a few stationary objects and getting soaked until the water lost most of its momentum. Other than that, a little non-lethal damage and a bruised ego were all I got out of the experience.

Water is heavy but, unless you are going fast enough for the water to act like concrete, it has more of a tendency to move around you if it can't go through you.