Bladesingers, How Important is Mobile?

[Gale]

Title. I'm planning on making my next character a Bladesinger, but I'm not sure if I want to take the Mobile feat or not. Originally, I was going to play a goblin in order to use Nimble Escape, and avoid having to take the feat. But then I realized that Bladesingers don't often have their bonus action available. Bladesong and Shadow Blade both take a bonus action to activate, and commanding minions (Animate Dead, Tiny Servant, Animate Objects, etc.) also takes a bonus action. It doesn't seem like I'll have many chances to actually use this.

Mobile doesn't require any action to use, which makes it a lot better. But there were some other feats I wanted to take too. I feel like it might be in my best interest to simply take opportunity attacks whenever I want to leave an enemy's range, and hope the Shield spell is enough to protect me. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

[MaxWilson]

Title. I'm planning on making my next character a Bladesinger, but I'm not sure if I want to take the Mobile feat or not. Originally, I was going to play a goblin in order to use Nimble Escape, and avoid having to take the feat. But then I realized that Bladesingers don't often have their bonus action available. Bladesong and Shadow Blade both take a bonus action to activate, and commanding minions (Animate Dead, Tiny Servant, Animate Objects, etc.) also takes a bonus action. It doesn't seem like I'll have many chances to actually use this.

Mobile doesn't require any action to use, which makes it a lot better. But there were some other feats I wanted to take too. I feel like it might be in my best interest to simply take opportunity attacks whenever I want to leave an enemy's range, and hope the Shield spell is enough to protect me. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

"You're a wizard, Harry." You've only got two attacks per round, and you're presumably planning on getting into melee a lot instead of sniping from range, which makes Mobile somewhat redundant. Unless you're planning on abusing Booming Blade constantly, Misty Step is more than enough to break contact occasionally when you want to (especially if grappled)--save that feat for something else, like Alert.

Mobile is a great feat, but only if you're genuinely planning on using all three of its abilities (ignoring difficult terrain while Dashing, avoiding certain opportunity attacks, and speed increase).

Your plan of simply accepting opportunity attacks and Shielding against them if necessary seems fine, especially for levels 1-7. By level 8 if you find that you really wish you had Mobile, you can pick it up.

[LudicSavant]

Title. I'm planning on making my next character a Bladesinger, but I'm not sure if I want to take the Mobile feat or not. Originally, I was going to play a goblin in order to use Nimble Escape, and avoid having to take the feat. But then I realized that Bladesingers don't often have their bonus action available. Bladesong and Shadow Blade both take a bonus action to activate, and commanding minions (Animate Dead, Tiny Servant, Animate Objects, etc.) also takes a bonus action. It doesn't seem like I'll have many chances to actually use this.

Mobile doesn't require any action to use, which makes it a lot better. But there were some other feats I wanted to take too. I feel like it might be in my best interest to simply take opportunity attacks whenever I want to leave an enemy's range, and hope the Shield spell is enough to protect me. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

Often, I don't really want to Disengage. And when I do, I have tools to do so that don't eat an ASI.

It's hard for me to give very specific advice without seeing your specific situation (2 Bladesingers can potentially be built and played quite differently from each other), but you may want to ask why you are so worried about being engaged in melee in the first place. Is there something you're doing that is making that a more disadvantaged state than it needs to be? Are you a much easier target to hurt with melee attacks than your allies? Whyso? Etc.

[Gale]

@LudicSavant I don't have any specific plans in mind as of yet. I think I'm just overestimating how easy it to get hit and worrying that I might end up dying if I spend too much time next to enemies. In my head, I'm imaging mobile would help me escape retaliation and avoid damage from melee attacks. But realistically, unless there's only one enemy who only has melee attacks available, I'm probably going to have someone attacking me no matter what. It's probably better to plan for the inevitable than try to futilely avoid being targeted at all.

[MaxWilson]

@LudicSavant I don't have any specific plans in mind as of yet. I think I'm just overestimating how easy it to get hit and worrying that I might end up dying if I spend too much time next to enemies. In my head, I'm imaging mobile would help me escape retaliation and avoid damage from melee attacks. But realistically, unless there's only one enemy who only has melee attacks available, I'm probably going to have someone attacking me no matter what. It's probably better to plan for the inevitable than try to futilely avoid being targeted at all.

Learn Expeditious Retreat (action: Disengage, bonus action Expeditious Retreat) and / or Misty Step (bonus action). You'll be fine.

Instead of Mobile, take Alert, then cast Fog Cloud to give enemies disadvantage to hit you AND let you escape opportunity attacks. You won't cast Fog Cloud in every single fight (sometimes you'll prefer Hypnotic Pattern or something) but it's cheap and effective in ~80% of the situations I expect you to be in.

Alert has other benefits for you too (going before monsters more often, not being surprised) so it's a nice synergy.

[Gale]

@MaxWilson, I don't really understand how Fog Cloud is supposed to be used? It seems like it would hurt the party almost as much as it would hurt your opponents, even if you had Alert.


Enemies within the fog cloud can leave threaten squares within provoking an opportunity attack.
Enemies that move before ending their turn in a fog cloud typically cannot be tracked. Players would have no idea what square they are in, and if they wanted to make an attack against them they would be have to guess where they are. This gives opponents an incentive to end their turns in the fog cloud, even at the cost of taking an opportunity attack. (Move out to attack someone outside the cloud, move back in.)
Friendly spellcasters can't cast any spell that require seeing the target if they are within the fog cloud.

Honestly, I'm not sure if this is helpful. It seems like it would cause a lot of headaches at the table, because creatures in the fog cloud shouldn't be able to tell where each other are and would be attacking blindly. Maybe you can try and listen to tell where your opponent has moved to? But my DM tends to rule that ability checks require an action, and that would likely be a Perception check, possibly with disadvantage.

I'm not trying to disparage the strategy by any means. I just genuinely don't know how to implement it effectively, and it seems like it would annoy other people at the table.

[Samayu]

With Mobile, you have to attack someone to be able to get away without an AoO. Nimble escape gives you a turn-long Disengage. But the Mobile withdrawal is free. So I guess it depends on how many enemies you think you'll be in range of when you need to get out. And how early in the turn it happens. Of course, you get surrounded by enemies before you have your Bladesong and/or Shadow Blade up, delaying them by a turn to save your skin probably won't seem like a problem.

[Merudo]

If you are concerned about survival, and not just trying to abuse Booming Blade, I'd recommend you take Lucky instead.

The lucky feat will help you avoid deadly critical hits you otherwise have no way to avoid, as well as allow you an extra roll if you fail that critical saving throw or ability check.

[MaxWilson]

@MaxWilson, I don't really understand how Fog Cloud is supposed to be used? It seems like it would hurt the party almost as much as it would hurt your opponents, even if you had Alert.


Enemies within the fog cloud can leave threaten squares within provoking an opportunity attack.
Enemies that move before ending their turn in a fog cloud typically cannot be tracked. Players would have no idea what square they are in, and if they wanted to make an attack against them they would be have to guess where they are. This gives opponents an incentive to end their turns in the fog cloud, even at the cost of taking an opportunity attack. (Move out to attack someone outside the cloud, move back in.)
Friendly spellcasters can't cast any spell that require seeing the target if they are within the fog cloud.

Honestly, I'm not sure if this is helpful. It seems like it would cause a lot of headaches at the table, because creatures in the fog cloud shouldn't be able to tell where each other are and would be attacking blindly. Maybe you can try and listen to tell where your opponent has moved to? But my DM tends to rule that ability checks require an action, and that would likely be a Perception check, possibly with disadvantage.

I'm not trying to disparage the strategy by any means. I just genuinely don't know how to implement it effectively, and it seems like it would annoy other people at the table.

The basic combo with Fog Cloud is mostly about imposing disadvantage on enemy attacks (they would get offsetting advantage too for being unseen, except if you've got Alert they don't get advantage for being unseen) and incidentally letting you move more freely (as an alternative to taking Mobile). It doesn't particularly help or hurt your teammates or the monsters (although see below) because advantage and disadvantage cancel each other out.

If your DM rules (contrary to RAW but oh well) that creatures in heavy obscurement are automatically hidden without having to take the Hide action, then Fog Cloud's use changes but it remains good. Now YOU can be hidden too without having to Hide. (At the same time, monsters will tend to remain conveniently within the Fog Cloud for the party to nuke with AoEs as required.) In this case I would take Fighting Style: Blindsight instead of Alert since you're apparently playing with Tasha's.

As for points #1 and #3: you can instantly drop the Fog Cloud just by ceasing concentration, but the enemy cannot, so it still winds up being at worst a wasted spell for you while providing protection from enemy spells. (See again: Fighting Style: Blindsight.) Whether other PCs take advantage of the cloud is up to them (wildshape into a snake or scorpion, Fighting Style: Blindsight, Alert feat, Tiny Servant or Animate Objects, Conjure Animals of snakes or certain spiders, or even just plain auto-hide since your DM apparently allows it without requiring Hide) and you should definitely talk to them first, but there are tons of ways for them to benefit. Missing out on opportunity attacks shouldn't be a big problem IMO since monsters can already choose to just absorb the opportunity attack already. If you want to block monster movement you either need to physically block or grapple them, or you need a TON of opportunity attacks from a whole bunch of different sources (like eight Giant Poisonous Snakes), or Sentinel or a grappling attack (Giant Constrictor Snake) and good luck on your one opportunity attack this round.

Ultimately it's still just a first level spell, and there are times you're better off concentrating on something else, but it's cheap for how much it gives you when you plan to take advantage of it. And BTW Pyrotechnics does the same thing without costing concentration, at the cost of a 2nd level slot (and no ability to instantly drop it by ceasing concentration).

[Kylar0990]

Title. I'm planning on making my next character a Bladesinger, but I'm not sure if I want to take the Mobile feat or not. Originally, I was going to play a goblin in order to use Nimble Escape, and avoid having to take the feat. But then I realized that Bladesingers don't often have their bonus action available. Bladesong and Shadow Blade both take a bonus action to activate, and commanding minions (Animate Dead, Tiny Servant, Animate Objects, etc.) also takes a bonus action. It doesn't seem like I'll have many chances to actually use this.

Mobile doesn't require any action to use, which makes it a lot better. But there were some other feats I wanted to take too. I feel like it might be in my best interest to simply take opportunity attacks whenever I want to leave an enemy's range, and hope the Shield spell is enough to protect me. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

Can it be useful? Yes, but probably not enough

But is it important? No, you already have +10 feet of movement while bladesinging. You likely have one of the higher AC's in your party, and you should have both the Shield and Absorb Elements spells. If you really think getting out of melee is that important pick up Misty Step or provoke the AoO and cast Shield if needed. (The +5AC from Shield will last until the beginning of your next turn)

Animate Objects only takes up your bonus action if your commanding them to do something new. If you told them to kill a target last turn, they are still working on that this turn. Animate Dead works the same way once given a command they will keep doing it until finished or told to stop.

[Merudo]

Learn Expeditious Retreat (action: Disengage, bonus action Expeditious Retreat) and / or Misty Step (bonus action). You'll be fine.

Instead of Mobile, take Alert, then cast Fog Cloud to give enemies disadvantage to hit you AND let you escape opportunity attacks. You won't cast Fog Cloud in every single fight (sometimes you'll prefer Hypnotic Pattern or something) but it's cheap and effective in ~80% of the situations I expect you to be in.

Alert has other benefits for you too (going before monsters more often, not being surprised) so it's a nice synergy.

I mentioned it before, later using Pyrotechnics can accomplish the same, without using up Concentration.

[Eldariel]

If I'm building a Bladesinger, I'm probably gonna look at:
- Alert/Lucky/Res: Con: You're still a Wizard. All these feats are great for Wizards. You're no exception. Indeed, Lucky in particular gets all the better if you're in melee taking potential crits; rerolling enemy crits is superb.
- +4 Int: You're still a Wizard. You also get to add Int to AC and Concentration and damage while Bladesinging so this is the biggest "duh" ever.

Other feats of note:
- Moderately Armored: If you have odd Dex, this can be good (Bladesinger's Light Armor Prof qualifies you). Having access to shields and medium armor when you don't have Bladesong left lets you keep up solid AC while abusing your Extra Attack++. Obviously a low level feat mostly; once you get to 4-5 uses, you'll be able to Bladesong mostly when it's relevant.
- Fighting Initiate: Mostly Blind Fighting (if you wanna abuse Darkness or Fog Cloud; tho you can also get Devil's Sight from Eldritch Adept for Darkness specifically) and Archery (if you go ranged). Others aren't really worth a feat.
- Sharpshooter/XBE: If you're going archery you'll obviously want one or both. Of course, you need race-based proficiencies (either Hand Crossbow or Longbow depending on which you're going) for this to truly shine.

[Schwann145]

Do you want to skirmish effectively? Then you'll need a reliable way to avoid Opportunity Attacks. The Mobile feat, a 2 lvl Rogue dip, whatever. But you'll need ballpark of 70ft of movement and the free disengage. This lets you start out of (most) range, get in, attack, and get back out of range.
What you don't want to do is plant your feet, because even if you do something like take Toughness to have "Fighter HP" you're still only getting a few Bladesongs per long rest (ugh, what an awful change, lol).
When you're Bladesinging, things like Shield are most likely plenty. But when you're not Bladesinging your AC will be low and your flesh squishy.

Now, if you're fine regressing to a "standard wizard" when you're out of Bladesongs, then you're fine. Just stay in the back line and cast spells like a regular wizard. If you actually intend to keep up the pretext that you're a Bladesinger even when you're out of juice, that's when you should consider the above. :)

[adb82]

Mobile is a good feat, bur probably not the best for you.

There are many ways to play Bladesinger: as a DPR character with some debuffs and buffs, or like a normal wizard for debuffering and batteflield control with a huge AC. I think you want play some sort of melee mage or gish, if this is right the first feat you have to think to get is one between warcaster and resilient (con), you dont want lose concentration. After this you can check about some other feat (lucky or alert, probably in this order as lucky save you from crits, and crits its the one really dangerous thing for you), without forget that at least 20 and 16 are necessary for int and dex (or better18 and 20 but i wouldnt play it with int or dex below 16), so you dont have much space for many feats if you play with the point buy.

This said, if you want to play melee and deal lots of damage while still have some debuff, repositioning and few control spell, i would use Shadow Blade, upcast it to lv 3 and later on, when you can, to lv 5, and with Booming Blade or GFB you deal tons of d8 often having advantage (this may not work with some DM as booming blade and GFB need "a weapon worth at least 1 gp", but as Shadow Blade description say "it counts as a simple melee weapon" that should so refer also to the price and to how many gp is worth, and as there is a tweet from Crawford that seem clearly say that RAI this is working for sure and probably also RAW, i would allow the use of SB and BB together, also because it dont start any OP situation, if your DM dont allow it just use SB and other sword, than just deal the BB damage with the normal sword on your second attack).

Strongly raccomended: pyrotecnics earlier lv as debuff, no concentration and thats great for you, plus you can use it in your first turn when you use your bonus action for start bladesong and so you cant also cast SB. Later on get Synaptic static (debuff + 8d6 area damage, no concentration, one of the best spell for you) and steel wind strike (arund 30 damage up to 5 creature, without affect your allies and you teleport, also dont need concentration, best blast probably for you, earlier lv fireball work as well too. Get also wall of force even it have concentration, because its too strong for leave it behind. Blink is fun and it help your defense, again no concentration, but 50% of times it not gonna give you any benefits, mirror image can be considered, but at mid/hight lv it go down so early, your best defence will always keep being teleportation, so misty step and i would grab also dimension door, but 99% of times you ll use misty step and remember that SB has the Thrown property, so you can use it ranged also sometimes, but you ll need a bonus action to call it back and you cant apply BB. Shocking Grasp is a nice cantrip for go out from the range of things that would hit you hard, burning his reaction, a sort or underpowered mobile, but its a cantrip, mindsliver also can be a good cantrip choice for you. Later on things like soul cage and crown of stars (not sure about it bcs it require an action for be casted, so probaby only for long fights, but it last one hour so it can be useful even precast it) for fill your bonus action, get polimorph, even it have concentration, but its your autoheal spell for when you get low hp (beofore use false life for boost your hp, precast it). Counterspell and Dispel are kinda obvius, but it burn your reaction, so no shield and absorb elements availabe when you counterspell). The other spells are kinda free, but i would not consider tenser transformation as you lose shield, absorb elements and counterspell for 50 hp, as SB 5th work kinda in the same way and let you save an highter spell slot. I got lots of utilities out of combat and rituals (teleportation circle, teleport, find familiar is pretty good for get adavantage and so on...). In this way you keep being a wizard with area damage, some good debuff and a dpr that can compete with mostly of the other martials.

If you wanna play it as a normal wizard with hight AC of course the spells you have to choose are totally different, he have much better dubuffs and much more controll spells (edvard tentacles, animate objects, bigby's hand, watery sphere, blur for defence and so on, all the conentration spell that you leave before). For a party this second character its probably more useful, but i would consider other subclass also if you want to play just a wizard, as that AC probably its not needed and there are other schools (abjuration, divination etc etc) that are probably better for a "normal" wizard. In this way you gonna have a much better control while you use from range your cantrips, lower spells and blasting spells, you probably gonna have a lower dpr but you ll help much more your party also.

Ps about bladesong its true its limited use, but once you get 3 or 4 a day (lv 5 you get already 3 uses), for the tables i play, was enought for the whole day.

[Mastikator]

I agree with others saying don't waste a feat on Mobile, just pick misty step. You get way more spells than ASIs. Fey Touched is a better feat IMO for a bladesinger. As is war caster.

[adb82]

Do you want to skirmish effectively? Then you'll need a reliable way to avoid Opportunity Attacks. The Mobile feat, a 2 lvl Rogue dip, whatever. But you'll need ballpark of 70ft of movement and the free disengage. This lets you start out of (most) range, get in, attack, and get back out of range.
What you don't want to do is plant your feet, because even if you do something like take Toughness to have "Fighter HP" you're still only getting a few Bladesongs per long rest (ugh, what an awful change, lol).
When you're Bladesinging, things like Shield are most likely plenty. But when you're not Bladesinging your AC will be low and your flesh squishy.

Now, if you're fine regressing to a "standard wizard" when you're out of Bladesongs, then you're fine. Just stay in the back line and cast spells like a regular wizard. If you actually intend to keep up the pretext that you're a Bladesinger even when you're out of juice, that's when you should consider the above. :)

I suppose misty step (30ft) + his Movement (40ft) its already the 70 ft you are searching for + disengage, without need any feat or dip. It cant use misty step every turn but, especially later on, he can use it kinda often without need to spend resources for a feat or delaying the spell progression with 2 dips in rogue. He can skermish without mobile and without any dip in my opinion. Neither dimension door is mandatory, but it would be anyway 260 ft in one turn dashing and you neither need to see the area of the last 150 ft long teleport, for if you need to run away fast from something, but for nothing else.

Bladesong for my 3/4 fights a day was already ok, but this depends from how many fights it is expected to have.

Anyway this subclass in my opinion do lots of things, it have full wizard spells progression, good melee damage and hight general dpr, good mobility, very hight AC. Of course there are classes that have more control and debuff, classes that are probaby better in melee, and classes that probably have a better mobility or that can be better tanks, some maybe have also better dpr (but this can be true till lv 13 and im neither so sure, as at lv 10/11 bladesinger can deal 395 hp in the first 3 rounds potentially, if fighting at least 5 enemies and if they fail the saving, that of course mostly of time wont happen for everyone, so around potentially 130 dpr, but less in the reality of the game, between spells and melee, at mid way build and without simulacrum, without consider the good chances to crit and eventually elven accuracy, and the fact that he is not using any -5 penalty to hit for boost his damage and dont neither need adavtange or anything for deal the whole pack, and he can deal this damage 2 fights a day already from lv 10, as he will benefit from arcane recovery for both the 5th lv spell slots used. A normal wizard, using the same spells but switching SB with animate objects, that its probably the best damage spell he have, get till 495 damage, but we have to say also that animate objects dont deal magic damage and so later on can be totally useless, depend on your DM, that he need to hit 10 times at +8 while you need to hit just 2 times and with a better bonus and your crits gonna hurt much more, that any other spell except animate objects he gonna put in would make he be below as dpr, and probably anyway a "normal" wizard wont do this for cast other spells more usefull to the party).

Anyway i dont think there is any other class getting this dpr except few maybe, but as i said im neither sure, After this first 3 rounds, that normally are the most important in a fight, he keep dealing 65/75 damage per round to single target (if there is still some target alive lol), count on 25 AC and without expend more resources (the wizrad with animate object deal around the same using firebolt cantrip and animated objects attack only if they all hit), except maybe some low lv spell slot for shield and misty step...leter on you probably want add to this also the damage from crown of stars as bonus action), but none of them have all those things, so for me the best ability of bladesinger is versatility, depending how many fights he gonna find during a day you can pick some spell also for use it like a normal wizard sometimes, but i would pick just few, probably edvards tentacles, summon elemental, bigby's hand or animate objects and maybe one spelll with concentration for debuff, but no more).

[Rev666]

Someone suggested a 2 level rogue dip for cunning action but have you considered a 3 level dip and going a swashbuckler? You'll get cha (if any) to initiative, +2d6 sneak on an attack plus it allows the same attack/don't provoke aoo as mobile. (Also if you DM allows the Steady Aim option then it can synergise with any upcast ranged spell attacks you make that you REALLY want to hit your opponent with).

The big question is whether you want a 3 level delay to spells.

[adb82]

Someone suggested a 2 level rogue dip for cunning action but have you considered a 3 level dip and going a swashbuckler? You'll get cha (if any) to initiative, +2d6 sneak on an attack plus it allows the same attack/don't provoke aoo as mobile. (Also if you DM allows the Steady Aim option then it can synergise with any upcast ranged spell attacks you make that you REALLY want to hit your opponent with).

The big question is whether you want a 3 level delay to spells.

With 3 dip you get canning action (good for mostly of characters but you already have misty step and great mobility without it), 2d6 Sneak Attack (if you search fo more melee power its better upcast Shadow Blade earlier than +2d6 on just one attack at certain conditions, and anyway even just 1 dip hexblade give you better boost to your damage, it delay your spells just one lv, and it hurt your slots much more less), kinda of rendundant disengage without get opportunity attacks, expertise (probably the one really useful thing you get) and nothing else. You lost one asi (and you already need asi's a lot), as slots and spells you are 3 lv behind any full caster (5h spell slot are a huge boost for a wizard, as it is the damage reduction you get to lv 10, as it is later simulacrum at lv 13, its really hard delay those things for canning action and 2d6 SA)...i wouldnt get it...it can have sense with 5 or 9 lv of arcane trickster, you dont lose the asi, you lose less spell slots, and probably you create a better arcane trickster than the pure one. So, while 3 dip in my opinion is really bad, 5 or 9 dip (not 7 bcs again you gonna lose one asi), probably after lv 6 so you get a second attack, a cantrip instead than an attack and a 3rd lv slot for SB, its viable, but of course you gonna give up lots of the wizard power, probably for neither get to deal more damage than a pure BS with a SB, while the pure BS still have all his wizard spells and you ll have not. Still good for thematic reasons, but multiclass a wizard with more than one dip its almost never worth it for real in my opinion.

[da newt]

IMO, Mobile isn't a very good use of a limited # of ASI.

Remember that just because you are a Bladesinger does not mean you HAVE to sing and swing every combat - depending on the specifics of the battle it may be smarter to stay at range and sling spells or jump into melee and stay put (with warcaster and booming blade you can really punish folks with your Op Atts) and it may be beneficial for the team if you do force foes to burn reactions attacking you with your great AC.

I'd push for max INT and con saves as priorities, then look at feats like lucky, alert, etc.