Serini is definitely Good because...

[Snails]

...her underground lair is a pleasant place with many well cared for houseplants. A whole bunch of them. Hanging plants. Some nice shrubs. A few planters with rows of flowers. And some substantial dwarf trees. A good variety of specimens.

Albeit this is the kind of pleasant place with chains on the wall for prisoners.

[Metastachydium]

I wholeheartedly agree. People who take good care of their plants are Good people indeed.

[fuschiawarrior]

And there isn't a carnivorous plant in sight which are associated with evilness for some reason.

[erikun]

Ah yes, of course. I'm glad there isn't a well-known class highly associated with plants and also restricted to another alignment (say, Neutral perhaps) which could offer another explanation.
It would certainly throw a wrench into this theory if that was the case.

I'd also note that someone could be evil and still have a desire to aid the good characters depending on their personal interests. Almost fits a theme for the comic.

[hamishspence]

Ah yes, of course. I'm glad there isn't a well-known class highly associated with plants and also restricted to another alignment (say, Neutral perhaps) which could offer another explanation.

Druids have 5 alignments open to then, TN, NE, NG, CN, LN.

[Metastachydium]

You people don't seem to understand. The rules are wrong. People who like planties are Good, and people who don't are not.

[erikun]

You people don't seem to understand. The rules are wrong. People who like planties are Good, and people who don't are not.
All dwarves are non-good, you heard it here first.

[Fyraltari]

You people don't seem to understand. The rules are wrong. People who like planties are Good, and people who don't are not.

What about the people who only like some plants?

[Metastachydium]

All dwarves are non-good, you heard it here first.

Eugene was right! Death to all dwarves!


What about the people who only like some plants?

An excellent question! You know those folks who are Neutral but Good-leaning (or Good but Neutral-leaning)? That's them. Unless of course they hate the other plants. In that case they are not Good at all, but still show signs of being perhaps redeemable.

[Dion]

Trolls are a type of ent, and ents are a type of tree. And trees are all good. Therefore she’s half tree, and only half good.

[brian 333]

There are Evil plant-lovers.
They cultivate plants like kale and quinoa and then eat them. And then these vegetarians go around trying to make other people participate in their horrible rituals by using body-shaming and false claims such as environmental sustainability and health benefits.

Don't fall for their lies! Good people eat meat!

[ByzantiumBhuka]

There are three great conflicts in this world.

First is between the forces of Good and Evil, as exemplified by the angels' and fiends' opposing goals of purification and corruption.
Second is between the forces of Law and Chaos-- the war between order and entropy, between devils and demons.
The third is perhaps the most important of all: the battle between the forces of Plant and Dwarf.

[snowblizz]

The third is perhaps the most important of all: the battle between the forces of Plant and Dwarf.

I thought it was Plant's vs Zombies.

[denthor]

All dwarves are non-good, you heard it here first.

They like mushrooms.

Afterall you eat the right mushrooms 🍄 you get big and toss fireballs.

I will show myself to the plumbing department now

[Manga Shoggoth]

The third is perhaps the most important of all: the battle between the forces of Plant and Dwarf.


I thought it was Plant's vs Zombies.

If the Dwarves have been drinking enough it's entirely possible, but they have ferocious resistance to alcohol.

That or restrict the early morning coffee.

[Snails]

And there isn't a carnivorous plant in sight which are associated with evilness for some reason.

How P'lantdins of Vengeance must defend the herbal peoples is oft misunderstood by meat-based creatures.

[a_flemish_guy]

They like mushrooms.

Afterall you eat the right mushrooms 🍄 you get big and toss fireballs.

I will show myself to the plumbing department now

mushrooms aren't plants though (they alongside things like mold fall inbetween plants and animals as a category)

[hamishspence]

True. But in D&D, mushroom creatures have the plant type.

[Peelee]

There are Evil plant-lovers.
They cultivate plants like kale and quinoa and then eat them. And then these vegetarians go around trying to make other people participate in their horrible rituals by using body-shaming and false claims such as environmental sustainability and health benefits.

Don't fall for their lies! Good people eat meat!

"Vegetarian" doesn't mean "healthy". Cheese pizza is vegetarian. Fries, potato chips, tons of things for people who don't enjoy qinuoa or kale.

[Trafalgar]

There are Evil plant-lovers.
They cultivate plants like kale and quinoa and then eat them. And then these vegetarians go around trying to make other people participate in their horrible rituals by using body-shaming and false claims such as environmental sustainability and health benefits.

Don't fall for their lies! Good people eat meat!

I agree! {Scrubbed} serving people Quinoa should be crime with a lengthy prison sentence..

[Dion]

There are Evil plant-lovers.
They cultivate plants like kale and quinoa and then eat them.

You know what’s yummy? Quinoa and kale mixed together. There’s a recipe for “southwestern kale power salad” on the Cookie and Kate website with Kale, Quinoa, and black beans that try to always keep a bowl of in my fridge.

(Well, sort of. Lots and lots of substitutions. I don’t think I’ve ever actually followed the recipe. But always salt, kale, quinoa, black beans, plus whatever dressing and additions looks good this week.)

[Kerching]

You know what’s yummy? Quinoa and kale mixed together. There’s a recipe for “southwestern kale power salad” on the Cookie and Kate website with Kale, Quinoa, and black beans that try to always keep a bowl of in my fridge.

(Well, sort of. Lots and lots of substitutions. I don’t think I’ve ever actually followed the recipe. But always salt, kale, quinoa, black beans, plus whatever dressing and additions looks good this week.)

Die, evil plant lover!

[elros]

I wholeheartedly agree. People who take good care of their plants are Good people indeed.
Finally, someone gets it!
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/batman/images/2/20/0689y.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20111212233556

[mjasghar]

There are Evil plant-lovers.
They cultivate plants like kale and quinoa and then eat them. And then these vegetarians go around trying to make other people participate in their horrible rituals by using body-shaming and false claims such as environmental sustainability and health benefits.

Don't fall for their lies! Good people eat meat!

Ironically there was a Dragon magazine April fool article about a Planescape faction that had this almost exact attitude

[Finagle]

How do you keep indoor plants from dying in a room with no windows and no electric lighting? Even if there are magical lights, which are shown nowhere, how do these lights emit a wavelength which chlorophyll can absorb? Looks like another major-league continuity error. Serini would have to cast sunburst continually, and she's not even a spellcaster!

[Emanick]

How do you keep indoor plants from dying in a room with no windows and no electric lighting? Even if there are magical lights, which are shown nowhere, how do these lights emit a wavelength which chlorophyll can absorb? Looks like another major-league continuity error. Serini would have to cast sunburst continually, and she's not even a spellcaster!

The daylight spell should do it. Even if it doesn’t, there’s probably a medium-tier magical item for that.

[Silent Wrangler]

What's this pro-plant propaganda?
Plants managed to genocide almost all life on Earth with deadly oxygen! We literally are mutants evolved to survive in this post-apocalyptic oxidizing hellscape.
The dwarves are Good people, the only ones who at least partially preserved the memory of who is the enemy of all life.

[Metastachydium]

What's this pro-plant propaganda?
Plants managed to genocide almost all life on Earth with deadly oxygen! We literally are mutants evolved to survive in this post-apocalyptic oxidizing hellscape.
The dwarves are Good people, the only ones who at least partially preserved the memory of who is the enemy of all life.

Now, you must stop spreading ugly lies and slandering all those nice planties!
First of all, cyanobacteria were responsible for the Great Oxygenation event and cyanobacteria are not planties. They are funny blue prokaryotes.
Planties evolved a lot later to keep us all alive and how do those horrible scumbag Evil dwarves repay them for this? By trying to kill them all (which would also kill the dwarves, but these Chaotic Evil monstrosities care little about that)!
Planties are Good and those who like them are also Good. Planties are life! Dwarves are death! Death to the dwarves!

[KorvinStarmast]

They like mushrooms. According to The Fellowship of the Ring, hobbits like mushrooms, therefore hobbits are dwarves. :smallconfused:

You know what’s yummy? Quinoa and kale mixed together. My wife agrees. She makes a dish with those two and chunks of chicken, and onions. Quite nice. I make black bean chili every year (during Lent) that is vegetarian: no meat. I have had a few people marvel that there isn't meat in it, based on the texture and taste. :smallbiggrin: I am pretty sure that it's on our menu for next week, based on my wife's plans.

How do you keep indoor plants from dying in a room with no windows and no electric lighting? Magic. :smallcool:

[snowblizz]

Magic. :smallcool:
Lack of Magic would explain why I can't keep plants alive with windows and electric lighting both.

[Emanick]

Lack of Magic would explain why I can't keep plants alive with windows and electric lighting both.

Miraculously, most of my houseplants are still alive after I’ve spent the better part of the year keeping them behind closed shades and (as often as not) in darkness. A druid I am not - it seems like some plants need sunlight a lot less than others, though.

[Metastachydium]

Miraculously, most of my houseplants are still alive after I’ve spent the better part of the year keeping them behind closed shades and (as often as not) in darkness. A druid I am not - it seems like some plants need sunlight a lot less than others, though.

You are a monster and you should feel bad about it.

[luagha]

I agree! {scrub the post, scrub the quote} and serving people Quinoa should be crime with a lengthy prison sentence..

You've clearly never had quinoa sous-vided in chicken broth.

[Riftwolf]

So, Poison Ivy, now good?

[Xlsfd]

Well, considering what she does in #1227, she's definitely not Lawful Good. Neutral Good or Chaotic Good are still on the table, though.

[Pablo360]

So, Poison Ivy, now good?

These days, yeah, she flip-flops between antivillain and villain and even antihero from source to source.

[Metastachydium]

So, Poison Ivy, now good?

You still don't get it, do you? If she likes plants, she's Good.

[Manga Shoggoth]

Lack of Magic would explain why I can't keep plants alive with windows and electric lighting both.

Perhaps you should have used Solaris (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solaris_(operating_system)) instead? (I'd have suggested SunOS, but that would be an old joke...)

[Dr.Zero]

Knowing that I've evolved thanks to bacteria's farts has really changed my day.

On a side note, I'm definitely good. I like a lot of plants: potato, eggplants and zucchini, cooked in different ways.
On a side side note, I like even cows and poultry cooked in different ways, which, I don't know, makes me extragood in a multiversal way, I think.

[KorvinStarmast]

Knowing that I've evolved thanks to bacteria's farts has really changed my day.
Gives the lyrics to Jumpin' Jack Flash (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cPXwc-5Kw8) a new meaning.

I'm jumpin Jack Flash, it's a gas gas gas ...

[Doug Lampert]

Knowing that I've evolved thanks to bacteria's farts has really changed my day.

On a side note, I'm definitely good. I like a lot of plants: potato, eggplants and zucchini, cooked in different ways.
On a side side note, I like even cows and poultry cooked in different ways, which, I don't know, makes me extragood in a multiversal way, I think.

Eating cows is extra special good, because each cow murders uncounted thousands of innocent blades of grass every single day.

[Metastachydium]

On a side note, I'm definitely good. I like a lot of plants: potato, eggplants and zucchini, cooked in different ways.


[Frowns.] That's not how you are supposed to do it.


Eating cows is extra special good, because each cow murders uncounted thousands of innocent blades of grass every single day.

You should know that you are a Good person.

[Fyraltari]

On a side note, I'm definitely good. I like a lot of plants: potato, eggplants and zucchini, cooked in different ways.
[Frowns.] That's not how you are supposed to do it.

Found the bosmer (https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Bosmer).

[RatElemental]

[Frowns.] That's not how you are supposed to do it.


What about fruits? I'm just doing my part to help spread the plant's seedlings further!

[Metastachydium]

Found the bosmer (https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Bosmer).

I like these folks (and they come in green, which is also a nice touch)!


What about fruits? I'm just doing my part to help spread the plant's seedlings further!

That's excusable (depending on where you usually defecate).

[Fyraltari]

I like these folks (and they come in green, which is also a nice touch)!
Fun fact: they eat people.

[Peelee]

That's excusable (depending on where you usually defecate).

On plants like grass, of course!

[Metastachydium]

Fun fact: they eat people.

Eh, who doesn't?


On plants like grass, of course!

As long as you don't overdo it, manure's just manure.

[Fyraltari]

Eh, who doesn't?

Vegetarians?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Vegetarians?

Trents are people.

GW

[arimareiji]

So, Poison Ivy, now good?
Opinions vary, but either way: You're gonna need an ocean of calamine lotion.

[Fyraltari]

Trents are people.

GW
Vegetarians don't eat wood.

[hamishspence]

Vegetarians don't eat wood.Except palm trees - the heartwood of a palm tree is both edible and nutritious.

Given Tarquin's penchant for eating bits of sentient beings, I'd speculate that if "palm tree treants" exist - he'd seek them out to serve at his "Evil food" banquets, for any vegetarians invited.

[Metastachydium]

Vegetarians?

Vegetarians are a special kind of Evil. We should eat them.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Vegetarians don't eat wood.

And carnivores don't eat bone.

GW

[Peelee]

Vegetarians are a special kind of Evil. We should eat them.

So I've got some bad news for you about Rich Burlew...

[hamishspence]

And carnivores don't eat bone.


Spotted hyenas do. So do lammergiers. Both are predators that attack live prey, and not exclusive scavengers.

[Dr.Zero]

So I've got some bad news for you about Rich Burlew...

According to the incipit, I tend to think that the bad news are for Rich Burlew.

[Dr.Zero]

Spotted hyenas do. So do lammergiers. Both are predators that attack live prey, and not exclusive scavengers.

I do too, in some cases.
Some little fishes, when fried, can be eaten with the whole fishbone (some cook them without even cutting off the head, I prefer them without the heads and to clean them from bowels, too, if they are not too tiny).
(a recipe, in italian, as example) (https://www.buonissimo.it/lericette/8117_Frittura_di_pesciolini)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Spotted hyenas do. So do lammergiers. Both are predators that attack live prey, and not exclusive scavengers.

I truly not sure what you think you are attempting to communicate here. Not sure if you are missing the joke, or are going for some "gotcha", like it would matter.

GW

[hamishspence]

I get the joke - I'm just pointing out that "carnivores don't eat bone" is not 100% accurate, just like "vegetarians don't eat wood" is - and that there are a couple of exceptions.

[Metastachydium]

I get the joke - I'm just pointing out that "carnivores don't eat bone" is not 100% accurate, just like "vegetarians don't eat wood" is - and that there are a couple of exceptions.

Herbivorous/omnivorous livestock and planties are also often fed bones (or, at any rate, stuff that used to be bones). It's healthy, nutritious and nice.


According to the incipit, I tend to think that the bad news are for Rich Burlew.

Relax, he's earned his place on the far end of the list.

[Dion]

I truly not sure what you think you are attempting to communicate here.

Hyenas are lawful good because they travel in packs and don’t waste food.

[Dr.Zero]

Herbivorous/omnivorous livestock and planties are also often fed bones (or, at any rate, stuff that used to be bones). It's healthy, nutritious and nice.


Nutritious for sure.
Healthy, as long as we don't discover a bone version of the mad-cow disease.
Nice, whelp, I don't think so. I wouldn't call nice someone who hides in my food the powder of the bones of someone.

[Dion]

I wouldn't call nice someone who hides in my food the powder of the bones of someone.

I am so glad that you chose this not-at-all specious comparison! Even when we tell a plant, in plain English, that it’s nutrients are bone meal of “someone”, the plant will eat it anyhow!

This proving that plants are chaotic evil.

[Metastachydium]

Nice, whelp, I don't think so. I wouldn't call nice someone who hides in my food the powder of the bones of someone.

Feh. Keep your weird human sensibilities out of this!


I am so glad that you chose this not-at-all specious comparison! Even when we tell a plant, in plain English, that it’s nutrients are bone meal of “someone”, the plant will eat it anyhow!

This proving that plants are chaotic evil.

[Goes into angry little flower mode.] So what? Planties should just let all those sweet nutrients go to waste? If that bothers you folks, stop burying your kind in the ground!
Also, few planties kill for their food, and they don't grind up anyone for it either. People on the other hand kill planties on a regular basis and grind them down for food. Now, who's the Chaotic Evil party here? (HInt: it's you.)

[Peelee]

Also, few planties kill for their food

Beyond a fence, they came to the swimming pool, which spilled over into a series of waterfalls and smaller rocky pools. The area was planted with huge ferns. “Isn’t this extraordinary?” Ed Regis said. “Especially on a misty day, these plants really contribute to the prehistoric atmosphere. These are authentic Jurassic ferns, of course.”

Ellie paused to look more closely at the ferns. Yes, it was just as he said: Serenna veriformans, a plant found abundantly in fossils more than two hundred million years old, now common only in the wetlands of Brazil and Colombia. But whoever had decided to place this particular fern at poolside obviously didn’t know that the spores of veriformans contained a deadly beta-carboline alkaloid. Even touching the attractive green fronds could make you sick, and if a child were to take a mouthful, he would almost certainly die—the toxin was fifty times more poisonous than oleander. People were so naive about plants, Ellie thought. They just chose plants for appearance, as they would choose a picture for the wall. It never occurred to them that plants were actually living things, busily performing all the living functions of respiration, ingestion, excretion, reproduction—and defense.

People were so naive about plants, Ellie thought. They just chose plants for appearance, as they would choose a picture for the wall. It never occurred to them that plants were actually living things, busily performing all the living functions of respiration, ingestion, excretion, reproduction and defense. But Ellie knew that, in the earth's history, plants had evolved as competitively as animals, and in some ways more fiercely. The poison in Serenna veriformans was a minor example of the elaborate chemical arsenal of weapons that plants had evolved. There were terpenes, which plants spread to poison the soil around them and inhibit competitors; alkaloids, which made them unpalatable to insects and predators (and children); and pheromones, used for communication. When a Douglas fir tree was attacked by beetles, it produced an anti-feedant chemical—and so did other Douglas firs in distant parts of the forest. It happened in response to a warning alleochemical secreted by the trees that were under attack.

People who imagined that life on earth consisted of animals moving against a green background seriously misunderstood what they were seeing. That green background was busily alive. Plants grew, moved, twisted, and turned, fighting for the sun; and they interacted continuously with animals-discouraging some with bark and thorns; poisoning others, and feeding still others to advance their own reproduction, to spread their pollen and seeds. It was a complex, dynamic process which she never ceased to find fascinating. And which she knew most people simply didn't understand.

But if planting deadly ferns at poolside was any indication, then it was clear that the designers of Jurassic Park had not been as careful as they should have been.

You can't fool me with your pro-plant propaganda. Nature red in tooth and claw is not solely limited to a single kingdom. Plants will gladly shed another's chlorophyll if necessary. David Attenborough talks not infrequently about the intense levels of competition in the rainforests when one tree dies - numerous other plants must battle it out for the precious spot of sunlight newly opened. I not not go out of my way to demonize plants, but neither do I defend their way of life, surviving at the expense of others if need be. Like all natural life.

[Fyraltari]

Vegetarians are a special kind of Evil. We should eat them.

Do you know how many cereals are killed to feed the food of the non-vegetarians? What do you have to say to the families of those uncounted trillions?

[Metastachydium]

Beyond a fence, they came to the swimming pool, which spilled over into a series of waterfalls and smaller rocky pools. The area was planted with huge ferns. “Isn’t this extraordinary?” Ed Regis said. “Especially on a misty day, these plants really contribute to the prehistoric atmosphere. These are authentic Jurassic ferns, of course.”

Ellie paused to look more closely at the ferns. Yes, it was just as he said: Serenna veriformans, a plant found abundantly in fossils more than two hundred million years old, now common only in the wetlands of Brazil and Colombia. But whoever had decided to place this particular fern at poolside obviously didn’t know that the spores of veriformans contained a deadly beta-carboline alkaloid. Even touching the attractive green fronds could make you sick, and if a child were to take a mouthful, he would almost certainly die—the toxin was fifty times more poisonous than oleander. People were so naive about plants, Ellie thought. They just chose plants for appearance, as they would choose a picture for the wall. It never occurred to them that plants were actually living things, busily performing all the living functions of respiration, ingestion, excretion, reproduction—and defense.

People were so naive about plants, Ellie thought. They just chose plants for appearance, as they would choose a picture for the wall. It never occurred to them that plants were actually living things, busily performing all the living functions of respiration, ingestion, excretion, reproduction and defense. But Ellie knew that, in the earth's history, plants had evolved as competitively as animals, and in some ways more fiercely. The poison in Serenna veriformans was a minor example of the elaborate chemical arsenal of weapons that plants had evolved. There were terpenes, which plants spread to poison the soil around them and inhibit competitors; alkaloids, which made them unpalatable to insects and predators (and children); and pheromones, used for communication. When a Douglas fir tree was attacked by beetles, it produced an anti-feedant chemical—and so did other Douglas firs in distant parts of the forest. It happened in response to a warning alleochemical secreted by the trees that were under attack.

People who imagined that life on earth consisted of animals moving against a green background seriously misunderstood what they were seeing. That green background was busily alive. Plants grew, moved, twisted, and turned, fighting for the sun; and they interacted continuously with animals-discouraging some with bark and thorns; poisoning others, and feeding still others to advance their own reproduction, to spread their pollen and seeds. It was a complex, dynamic process which she never ceased to find fascinating. And which she knew most people simply didn't understand.

But if planting deadly ferns at poolside was any indication, then it was clear that the designers of Jurassic Park had not been as careful as they should have been.

You can't fool me with your pro-plant propaganda. (I appreciate the excerpt emphasizing how plants are living creatures (rather than dumb „objects”) too, minding their own business, nevertheless.)

One must be careful not to dismiss the Truth as propaganda all too easily.


Nature red in tooth and claw is not solely limited to a single kingdom. Plants will gladly shed another's chlorophyll if necessary. David Attenborough talks not infrequently about the intense levels of competition in the rainforests when one tree dies - numerous other plants must battle it out for the precious spot of sunlight newly opened. I not not go out of my way to demonize plants, but neither do I defend their way of life, surviving at the expense of others if need be. Like all natural life.

You are welcome to become poisonous and grow as many thorns as you see fit to prevent predation. I wouldn't hold that against anyone. As for surviving at the expense of others, plants might resort to that if need be, but there are very few animals that don't do it 24/7. There could be plant life without animals (many plants can pollinate themselves and many have mechanisms to ensure that their seeds can transport themselves), animals however need plants (and other animals) to survive.


Do you know how many cereals are killed to feed the food of the non-vegetarians? What do you have to say to the families of those uncounted trillions?

KILL ALL HUMANS!

[Peelee]

[QUOTE=Metastachydium;24959046]You are welcome to become poisonous and grow as many thorns as you see fit to prevent predation. I wouldn't hold that against anyone. As for surviving at the expense of others, plants might resort to that if need be, but there are very few animals that don't do it 24/7. There could be plant life without animals (many plants can pollinate themselves and many have mechanisms to ensure that their seeds can transport themselves), animals however need plants (and other animals) to survive.
Plantaganda!

KILL ALL HUMANS!
https://media1.tenor.com/images/e50fe5cf9d75cf6c46d585ab8f936202/tenor.gif

[Fyraltari]

KILL ALL HUMANS!

I want... (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnxS5SZBYDM)
10

[Darth Paul]

Someone has probably already brought it up that the exact same argumant has been made about people who love cats; i.e., they must be good people at heart.

Cue the Bond villain petting his little white cat...

[KorvinStarmast]

Some little fishes, when fried, can be eaten with the whole fishbone (some cook them without even cutting off the head, I got to try some alici when I was in Italy; yummy.

Hyenas are lawful good because they travel in packs and don’t waste food. Beasts tend to be 'alignment neutral' or as we used to say "alignment: hungry" ...

Someone has probably already brought it up that the exact same argumant has been made about people who love cats; i.e., they must be good people at heart. Belkar.

Cue the Bond villain petting his little white cat... Belkar as Bond villain: not seeing it. :smallcool:

[brian 333]

Considering that Serini is using these plants to manufacture poison and that the use of poison in D&D is considered a non-good act, the implications are that neither Serini or plants are Good.

[Metastachydium]

Considering that Serini is using these plants to manufacture poison and that the use of poison in D&D is considered a non-good act, the implications are that neither Serini or plants are Good.

Planties don't use poison. People harming planties by, say, eating them are the ones that use poison on themselves. Therefore, people eating planites are poison-users and as such, Evil.
(Also, we don't know that she manufactures poison from the plants. It's a popular theory, but it was never confirmed.)

[KorvinStarmast]

Considering that Serini is using these plants to manufacture poison and that the use of poison in D&D is considered a non-good act, the implications are that neither Serini or plants are Good.
I get twitchy, sometimes, when I see the missed chance for a proper neither / nor application ... if neither Serini nor the plants are good, them both being neutral (well, the plants likely being non aligned) is quite plausible.

I'd drop Serini into Neutral alignment without much fuss if Alignment matters; and when it comes to story telling it rarely does.

[Peelee]

Planties don't use poison.

Except, of course, for all the planties that use poison.

[Metastachydium]

Except, of course, for all the planties that use poison.

Again, they just happen to be poisonous. It's a passive defense and noone asked those pesky animals to poison themselves.

[Peelee]

Again, they just happen to be poisonous. It's a passive defense and noone asked those pesky animals to poison themselves.

Similarly, my swinging my fist in the empty air is a passive defense and nobody asked anyone who runs into it to punch themselves. And this isn't even touching on trees with fruit that explode. Unless grenades are now passive as well.

Anyway, good to see that one can away from "plants don't use poison", even if it's just to "its the victims fault for being poisoned".

[Metastachydium]

Similarly, my swinging my fist in the empty air is a passive defense and nobody asked anyone who runs into it to punch themselves.

Bad example. Swinging your fist is an action rather than a passive defense. This is more like sitting on a hedgehog (don't do that, it's an unnecessarily cruel thing that should never happen to a hedgehog): if you sit on a hedgehog, did the hedgehog use its spikes on you?


And this isn't even touching on trees with fruit that explode. Unless grenades are now passive as well.

…
If planties do it, it must be so.


Anyway, good to see that one can away from "plants don't use poison", even if it's just to "its the victims fault for being poisoned".

My position on this is unchanged. Evil plant eaters use that poison on themselves. Planties are just unwilling service providers (unless you'd wish to argue that poisonous plants want their poisonous parts to be eaten).

[hamishspence]

Some plants release poison, not to ward off animals, but to repel, or even kill, other plants.

https://www.permaculturenews.org/2016/01/21/plant-allelopathy/

And some are positively vampiric toward other plants:

http://gardenprofessors.com/when-plants-attack-each-other/

[Emanick]

Planties don't use poison. People harming planties by, say, eating them are the ones that use poison on themselves.

It's pretty hard for me to disagree with the statement "Plants use poison as a defense mechanism, therefore plants use poison."

Granted, the rule that using poison is an inherently non-Good act but using a sword isn't has always struck me as a dumb one, and I don't enforce it in my games. I think a LG paladin stole some poison from an efreeti slaver in one of my games once and I saw zero alignment problems with that. Nor would I have an issue with him using that poison as a lethal weapon.

[hamishspence]

Especially when one "Always Lawful Good" outsider - the couatl, has poisonous fangs.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/couatl.htm

[Fyraltari]

Are we arguing the morality of plants, now? Okay.


Bad example. Swinging your fist is an action rather than a passive defense. This is more like sitting on a hedgehog (don't do that, it's an unnecessarily cruel thing that should never happen to a hedgehog): if you sit on a hedgehog, did the hedgehog use its spikes on you?

Probably yes. They can move those things you know, it's not like they are perpetually sticking out 90° from their skin.

[Metastachydium]

Some plants release poison, not to ward off animals, but to repel, or even kill, other plants.

https://www.permaculturenews.org/2016/01/21/plant-allelopathy/

And some are positively vampiric toward other plants:

http://gardenprofessors.com/when-plants-attack-each-other/

LIES!


It's pretty hard for me to disagree with the statement "Plants use poison as a defense mechanism, therefore plants use poison."


I'd argue that „plants have poison as a defense mechanism” and „plants use poison” are not the same thing.


Are we arguing the morality of plants, now? Okay.

I thought we were doing just that for quite a while.


Probably yes. They can move those things you know, it's not like they are perpetually sticking out 90° from their skin.

Fine, how about stepping on a sea urching?

[Emanick]

I'd argue that „plants have poison as a defense mechanism” and „plants use poison” are not the same thing.

This is reaching a level of pedantry that, even for this forum, is kind of, um, notable, but if you think plants don't "use" poison, you are using the word "use" in a very unusual way.

From Dictionary.com, the definition of "use":

verb (used with object), used, us·ing.
1. to employ for some purpose; put into service; make use of: to use a knife.
2. to avail oneself of; apply to one's own purposes: to use the facilities.
3. to expend or consume in use: We have used the money provided.
4. to treat or behave toward: He did not use his employees with much consideration.

Plants employ poison for a purpose, availing themselves of it, applying it to the purpose of staying alive. This process expends or consumes some of the poison they store in their bodies. This is, in fact, how many of them treat or behave toward creatures that attempt to eat or damage them (or sometimes just come into contact with them, as many unfortunate souls have discovered after running afoul of poison ivy).

There's nothing morally wrong with any of this, but it most definitely constitutes the use of poison.

[Metastachydium]

This is reaching a level of pedantry that, even for this forum, is kind of, um, notable,

Why, thank you! Achieving something in life always feels good.


but if you think plants don't "use" poison, you are using the word "use" in a very unusual way.

From Dictionary.com, the definition of "use":

verb (used with object), used, us·ing.
1. to employ for some purpose; put into service; make use of: to use a knife.
2. to avail oneself of; apply to one's own purposes: to use the facilities.
3. to expend or consume in use: We have used the money provided.
4. to treat or behave toward: He did not use his employees with much consideration.

Plants employ poison for a purpose, availing themselves of it, applying it to the purpose of staying alive. This process expends or consumes some of the poison they store in their bodies. This is, in fact, how many of them treat or behave toward creatures that attempt to eat or damage them (or sometimes just come into contact with them, as many unfortunate souls have discovered after running afoul of poison ivy).

I beg to disagree: I believe use implies active participation in the process the verb describes, whereas when a poisonous plant is consumed or touched, the activity is carried out by the entity that consumes or touches the plant. That said, if you do indeed think that


There's nothing morally wrong with any of this,
that's more than enough for me in and on itself, so I will not continue to press the issue.

[Peelee]

Why, thank you! Achieving something in life always feels good.



I beg to disagree: I believe use implies active participation in the process the verb describes, whereas when a poisonous plant is consumed or touched, the activity is carried out by the entity that consumes or touches the plant. That said, if you do indeed think that

,
that's more than enough for me in and on itself, so I will not continue to press the issue.

Isn't active use the difference between poison and venom? Natural life poisons will always be passive.