metamagic and magic item creation, increased cost or no?

[newguydude1]

wands can only be 4th level or lower.
so can i put persistent wraithstrike into a wand?
because metamagic does not increase the spell level, nor minimum caster level, and the item creation cost is restricted solely to spell level x caster level.

[RNightstalker]

I don't imagine a DM would allow it if it was possible. That being said, a more realistic possibility of making that work would be an Incantatrix using the Cooperative Metamagic or Metamagic Spell Trigger class features.

[newguydude1]

I don't imagine a DM would allow it if it was possible. That being said, a more realistic possibility of making that work would be an Incantatrix using the Cooperative Metamagic or Metamagic Spell Trigger class features.

why would a dm not allow wands of persistent wraithstrike at 15th level (or earlier with a few metamagic cost reducers), but allow incantatrix, a prc on the same tier as dweomerkeeper?

anyways my dm would allow it if it works which is why im asking this question.

[Raishoiken]

The magic item creation section itself does state that you can place spells augmented by metamagic at a higher level than normal

[RNightstalker]

why would a dm not allow wands of persistent wraithstrike at 15th level (or earlier with a few metamagic cost reducers), but allow incantatrix, a prc on the same tier as dweomerkeeper?

anyways my dm would allow it if it works which is why im asking this question.

Because at 15th level, wraithstrike basically means a player only misses on a nat 1. If it makes you feel better, Incantatrix, Persistent Spell, and most metamagic reducers are on my banned list. But if your DM is cool with it, go with it. I honestly think that a Persistent wraithstrike item would best fit in a staff. Another possibility would be a Metamagic Persistent Rod. It shouldn't be too hard to figure out a price based on the others listed.

[newguydude1]

The magic item creation section itself does state that you can place spells augmented by metamagic at a higher level than normal

but only heighten spells places metamagic at a higher level. other metamagic merely forces you to use a higher level spell slot but doesnt change the actual spell level.

so i think this might be a loop hole, but it seems too good to be true, so i was wondering if it was too good to be true.

[Raishoiken]

but only heighten spells places metamagic at a higher level. other metamagic merely forces you to use a higher level spell slot but doesnt change the actual spell level.

so i think this might be a loop hole, but it seems too good to be true, so i was wondering if it was too good to be true.

The statement does specify metamagic feats in the plural/general which implies that you translate the slot increase into a level increase for the item

[newguydude1]

The statement does specify metamagic feats in the plural/general which implies that you translate the slot increase into a level increase for the item

except theres this rule

Spells modified by a metamagic feat use a spell slot higher than normal. This does not change the level of the spell, so the DC for saving throws against it does not go up.

is this a real loop hole?

[Raishoiken]

except theres this rule


is this a real loop hole?

Thats the thing, the rule you posted was the general rule, the crafting section is a specific exception to that rule

[newguydude1]

Thats the thing, the rule you posted was the general rule, the crafting section is a specific exception to that rule

so your saying when i apply maximize spell to fireball scroll, the save dc increases too and its no longer stopped by globe of invulnerability?

[Raishoiken]

so your saying when i apply maximize spell to fireball scroll, the save dc increases too and its no longer stopped by globe of invulnerability?

Seemingly so. Either that, or the higher level only factors into the cost but not the dcs and whatnot but the latter requires interpreting intent rather than whats just there

[Darg]

Until the spell is cast, it is considered a higher level spell in terms of how hard it is to cast and the spell slot used.


Effects of Metamagic Feats on a Spell: In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast as a higher-level spell.

It functions just like a spell of the original level except for two qualities: how it is prepared and how difficult it is to cast. This translates to a higher spell slot and a higher concentration DC. As it is a higher level spell prior to being cast you get this:


Magic Items and Metamagic Spells: With the right item creation feat, you can store a metamagic version of a spell in a scroll,
potion, or wand. Level limits for potions and wands apply to the spell’s higher spell level (after the application of the metamagic feat). A character doesn’t need the metamagic feat to activate an item storing a metamagic version of a spell.

The modified spell level applies to the creation of magic items. This means 3 things: it uses the modified spell level, is subject to level limits using the modified level, and requires the appropriate caster level of the modified spell level.

[hamishspence]

Scepters from Lost Empires of Faerun fill the "more powerful versions of wands" niche quite well.

Some wands from previous editions are better represented with the scepter rules. I recall a 2e wand that had two fiery spells in it - one weak one that used 1 charge, and one strong one that used 2 charges. Scepters have that option.

[newguydude1]

Until the spell is cast, it is considered a higher level spell in terms of how hard it is to cast and the spell slot used.



It functions just like a spell of the original level except for two qualities: how it is prepared and how difficult it is to cast. This translates to a higher spell slot and a higher concentration DC. As it is a higher level spell prior to being cast you get this:



The modified spell level applies to the creation of magic items. This means 3 things: it uses the modified spell level, is subject to level limits using the modified level, and requires the appropriate caster level of the modified spell level.

how about shalanthas delicate disk?
persistent wraithstrike

Once you summon a disk, a single spell of up to 5th level can be cast into it, either by you or by another spellcaster.
difficult to prepare and cast, but the result is still a 2nd level spell right? does the rule you quoted stop you from putting a persistent wraithstrike into a delicate disk?

[Darg]

how about shalanthas delicate disk?
persistent wraithstrike

difficult to prepare and cast, but the result is still a 2nd level spell right? does the rule you quoted stop you from putting a persistent wraithstrike into a delicate disk?

It does not as the spell has come into effect by being cast. Shalantha's delicate disk would be able to hold it as long as you don't increase the actually level of the spell such as using heighten spell. Darsson's Potion spell can also be used in this way as the spell is being cast into it. Contingency is also another.

[newguydude1]

It does not as the spell has come into effect by being cast. Shalantha's delicate disk would be able to hold it as long as you don't increase the actually level of the spell such as using heighten spell. Darsson's Potion spell can also be used in this way as the spell is being cast into it. Contingency is also another.

alright thanks. youve been really helpful.

[NotInventedHere]

As an addendum to this, Shalantha's Delicate Disk specifically mentions 'Expeditious Retreat' as an example of a spell that can be stored in it, which provides solid RAI support at least for the disc being able to hold Personal-range spells.

[Darg]

The real question is how to you conjure something with the range of touch when there is no space between you and the target to allow a conjuration to form? Wait, is it shaped like a CD with a hole in the middle? If so some one had a fun night thinking about this.