Ηigh Level Party

[OrlockDelesian]

My party of 7 18th lvl characters are facing tommorow against a High Level 20 Cleric of Light and Her party.

What would her party consist of (lets say that the enemies are a party of 5)

I Was thinking

A Paladin
A Rogue
A Wizard
And a Ranger.

But my players are heavily optimized and I want to give them a full fight.
Also, this is not a fight they should be doing (both groups are good, but they had betrayed via bad decisions the 2nd group twice already), so feel free to provide me with equally optimised NPCs. No punches pulled.

[J-H]

Don't build them as PCs... use NPC-style building (more HP, slimmer featureset). Otherwise the fight can all be over really fast.

An example:
Elven Diviner
(Prof Bonus +5)
AC 17 (Mage Armor, Ring of Protection); 22 w/ Shield
HP 120
Speed 30'
Str -1, Dex +3, Con +3, Int +5, Wis +1, Cha +0
Saves: Int+12, Wis +8; +1 to all other saves from Ring; adv on saves vs charm
Darkvision 60', Passive Perception 17
Damage resistance: fire
Special: Has 3 pre-rolled diviner dice
Actions
Cast a spell. Spell attack roll +11, spell save DC 19

Spells:
() Meteor Storm OR Power Word: Kill [pick based on expected battle terrain; assume an INT 20 diviner familiar with the opposition can tell who's a valid target for PWK)
() Power Word: Stun
() Teleport [they will be able to extract themselves if the battle turns against them]
() Scatter (up to 5 targets, 30' range, teleport away)
()() Bigby's Hand (C)
()()()() Upcast Magic Missile (4th level) for 6d4+6
()() Fireball

Bonus Actions
Bigby's Hand

Reactions
()()() Shield
()() Counterspell
__ __ __Diviner Dice

This give you, if anything, too many reactions to choose from; otherwise, it's 12 rounds of levelled spells to cast, which is plenty. It's also a lot faster than making a real wizard PC sheet.

Tactics:
If in open terrain (not a city), start with Meteor Storm. Otherwise, start by casting Bigby's Hand, and move it each round to a convenient target. Use Scatter if at least 3 PCs party members are within 30', to break their formation; this is especially to get their melee out of the fight for a round or two. Use Power Word: Stun on enemy archers or spellcasters. Use PWK on whatever enemy goes under 100hp as soon as there's a clear target in range. Use Fireball if it can hit at least 3 PCs without hitting any allies; otherwise use the upcast Magic Missile on whoever the rest of the party is struggling to damage.
Teleport is reserved for an exit strategy.
Use Shield if it appears the wizard will be taking at least two hits; otherwise, Counterspell enemy spellcasts. Use Diviner Dice to make attacks miss, or to help allies save on throws.

Possessions:
Ring of Protection +1
2 potions of greater healing
Custom robe of Fire Resistance [just enough to help, not enough for the party to get OP'd by all the PC-grade loot]

[OrlockDelesian]

Thank you, that will save time for sure!

[Eldariel]

My party of 7 18th lvl characters are facing tommorow against a High Level 20 Cleric of Light and Her party.

What would her party consist of (lets say that the enemies are a party of 5)

I Was thinking

A Paladin
A Rogue
A Wizard
And a Ranger.

But my players are heavily optimized and I want to give them a full fight.
Also, this is not a fight they should be doing (both groups are good, but they had betrayed via bad decisions the 2nd group twice already), so feel free to provide me with equally optimised NPCs. No punches pulled.

Cleric's party? Diviner Wizard, Shepherd Druid, Lore Bard, Ancients Paladin. That'll make them sweat, especially when all of those bind their own underlings: celestials, fiends, simulacrums, you name it, they've got it. Since they're up against 7 (!!) optimised PCs, they do need to pull out all the stops; getting nearly doubled in action economy means if each of them is worth two PCs they're still losing. Lots of action economy abuse in that bunch.

So. Wizard-wise:
- Simulacrum
- Maybe a Planar Bound Chasme
- Familiars & al.
- Tiny Servants or Animated Dead (depending on how evil undead are in this world)
- Wish for Greater Steed
- Contingency/Mind Blank/Mage Armor/etc. for defenses
- Abuse save-or-X effects making PCs fail saves. Shapechange into something nasty and apply effects (could also Shapechange into like Marilith and abuse the hell out of the Reactive trait together with Counterspell/Shield/Absorb Elements)


Lore Bard:
- Same minions as Wizard (Wish from Magical Secrets provides all of those but stuff like Magical Secrets is stuff you'll buy anyways)
- Counterspell, Telekinesis, etc. abusing Jack of All Trades [this gives the enemy party access to 4 counterspells in Lore Bard + Wizard + 2 Simulacrums, which helps at least]
- Shapechange tricks as above, worth noting that Reactive is even more fun when you also have Cutting Words


Shepherd Druid:
- His only job is to literally litter the battlefield with annoying things. Summon 24-32 Velociraptors or whatever and gang the hell up on any squishy PCs, or just abuse Shapechange like everyone else (more offensively though). It's ideal to make him drop at least once so he should get those Concentration-free 4 things (or have a trick to drop himself like walking into the AOE of the friendly Wizard's Meteor Swarm).
- He can also give everyone 23 temporary HP and heal all his summons in the totem arena. Yeah, it's obviously Bear Spirit (though Unicorn Spirit is also decent in any war of attrition)

Ancients Paladin:
- Basically only here to provide auras to everyone. Easier to run than another full caster (though optimally you'd just have a Sorcerer or even a Warlock or basically anyone capable of casting Wish). Obviously has Greater Steed and such and can Smite for a bunch of damage if needed; Diviner's possible 20s from Portent go here obviously.


Then just get in there and hit things in the face.

EDIT: Yaknow what, if you're interested I can just throw you statblocks for all of those tonight. I have statted 20th level characters lying around (I can drop them to 18 if you want) so it's just a matter of writing the stats up here. It's still enough work though that please let me know if you want 'em before I get to it.

[J-H]

For the ranger, I'd go with someone using Elven Advantage, Sharpshooter, and Guardian of Nature (Great Tree). Guardian gives him auto-advantage on all his attack rolls unless he loses Concentration, then Elven Advantage means he's got triple advantage. Sharpshooter +10 damage is great, since he'll probably nearly never miss (Prof +5, dex +5, SS -5, Archery +2, bow/arrows +2 = 14 to hit with elven triple advantage).
You could drop the last 4 levels of NPC Ranger to instead pick up NPC Champion 4, letting you crit-fish even harder.
Give him a big bear or something beefy as an animal companion to screen for him.

[OrlockDelesian]

Cleric's party? Diviner Wizard, Shepherd Druid, Lore Bard, Ancients Paladin. That'll make them sweat, especially when all of those bind their own underlings: celestials, fiends, simulacrums, you name it, they've got it. Since they're up against 7 (!!) optimised PCs, they do need to pull out all the stops; getting nearly doubled in action economy means if each of them is worth two PCs they're still losing. Lots of action economy abuse in that bunch.

So. Wizard-wise:
- Simulacrum
- Maybe a Planar Bound Chasme
- Familiars & al.
- Tiny Servants or Animated Dead (depending on how evil undead are in this world)
- Wish for Greater Steed
- Contingency/Mind Blank/Mage Armor/etc. for defenses
- Abuse save-or-X effects making PCs fail saves. Shapechange into something nasty and apply effects (could also Shapechange into like Marilith and abuse the hell out of the Reactive trait together with Counterspell/Shield/Absorb Elements)


Lore Bard:
- Same minions as Wizard (Wish from Magical Secrets provides all of those but stuff like Magical Secrets is stuff you'll buy anyways)
- Counterspell, Telekinesis, etc. abusing Jack of All Trades [this gives the enemy party access to 4 counterspells in Lore Bard + Wizard + 2 Simulacrums, which helps at least]
- Shapechange tricks as above, worth noting that Reactive is even more fun when you also have Cutting Words


Shepherd Druid:
- His only job is to literally litter the battlefield with annoying things. Summon 24-32 Velociraptors or whatever and gang the hell up on any squishy PCs, or just abuse Shapechange like everyone else (more offensively though). It's ideal to make him drop at least once so he should get those Concentration-free 4 things (or have a trick to drop himself like walking into the AOE of the friendly Wizard's Meteor Swarm).
- He can also give everyone 23 temporary HP and heal all his summons in the totem arena. Yeah, it's obviously Bear Spirit (though Unicorn Spirit is also decent in any war of attrition)

Ancients Paladin:
- Basically only here to provide auras to everyone. Easier to run than another full caster (though optimally you'd just have a Sorcerer or even a Warlock or basically anyone capable of casting Wish). Obviously has Greater Steed and such and can Smite for a bunch of damage if needed; Diviner's possible 20s from Portent go here obviously.


Then just get in there and hit things in the face.

EDIT: Yaknow what, if you're interested I can just throw you statblocks for all of those tonight. I have statted 20th level characters lying around (I can drop them to 18 if you want) so it's just a matter of writing the stats up here. It's still enough work though that please let me know if you want 'em before I get to it.



Most of your Ideas are great, and will work in my campaign. (Not Wish though, I don't allow Players to get it by leveling up, and the Particular NpCs wouldn't have the chance to get it. Furthermore with the Enemy Clerics 100% divine intervation and the PC cleric imprisoned due to a stupidity call last session, your advices are more than enough).

Creating characters and monsters is litterally one of my favourite things as a DM so I will pass on your offer, though I deeply thank you for it! However if you wish and enjoy it as well, fell free to make the statblocks and I will use yours, making the npcs pray to you every time they score a crit! :)

[MarkVIIIMarc]

I love having a Bard animate some objects and then watching the party fight the animated objects instead of hunting the Bard.

[Zhorn]

Don't build them as PCs... use NPC-style building (more HP, slimmer featureset). Otherwise the fight can all be over really fast.
This. So much of this.

As a DM not being bound by the trails and progression that players are when levelling up characters, the ability to throw high level player classed NPCs at the party can feel really cheesy from the player's side, since such NPCs can just be thrown together at a whim without effort.
It's a common RPG Horror Story, hearing about DMs that pit their custom made parties in combat with the players, with highly optimised builds, ideal gear and magic items, synergized spell selections and coordinated tactics (all NPCs following a single plan rather then a group of individuals with mixed ideas of what is happening and what they should be doing). It's never a fair fight or level playing field.

The NPC stat blocks in the monster manual, Volo's, and Mordenkainen's will offer you plenty of fighting power with a simple tweak to AC and HP to fit the tier of play.

[anthon]

My party of 7 18th lvl characters are facing tommorow against a High Level 20 Cleric of Light and Her party.

What would her party consist of (lets say that the enemies are a party of 5)

I Was thinking

A Paladin
A Rogue
A Wizard
And a Ranger.

But my players are heavily optimized and I want to give them a full fight.
Also, this is not a fight they should be doing (both groups are good, but they had betrayed via bad decisions the 2nd group twice already), so feel free to provide me with equally optimised NPCs. No punches pulled.

i had much fun with a Celestial Warlock using a big sword. Using a high level True polymorph any object to transform a resource burned Party member into a CR 18-20 encounter like an Aasimon or Dragon is an effective way to throw the party for a loop. You can toss 1-2 epic boons in your party too to mix up their overall effectiveness.

Effects which are useless vs. bad guys are often devastating to players in the long run. Exhaustion levels, blindness, etc. Killing parties with monsters is easy, but killing them with player characters is hard because it can go either way. Your PC types wont have legendary actions to hide behind or lair stuff, so instead you'll be stuck using magic items and combos or hijinks.

Your players seeing themselves facing low hit point action economy rivals will try to interrupt their action economy, use attack of opportunity sentinal/reach type tactics, and generally expect your bad guys to fold around 100-160 hp each, which is like 1/3rd the hit points of CR 18-24 monsters.

So what you want is stuff like Free Action, high stealthed long range improved invisibility assassin rogues using high grade poison. You want to open up with summoned creatures, maybe even a Gate. Have the Wizard Gate in something awful, have that awful thing polymorph the Wizard into a Dragon after the wizard burns through their 7th and 8th level spell slots.

Put +3 armor and +3 shield with shield of faith on the paladin and some kind of cleric buff that reduces damage and have them tank, using Previously burned Tomes of Charisma to get a +6 or +7 Cha bonus adding to the Saving throws of the group.

There's tons of different options. Have an illusory forest act as cover and have the ranger snipe through the forest with the archery feat. For you cleric, do two fun things:

when your adventuring party is getting whittled down to about half to 1/4 and feeling weak, then follow up with the Cleric of Light Fireball.

When your adventuring party members are near death, have the Cleric of light cast one of those ridiculous "get all your hp back" spells, this is particularly effective if used right about the time your party has burned through their heavy hitting resources like smite, once per long rest abilities, etc.

But trust me on the hidden invisible sniper at 600 ft shooting through cover and the "Gate in a Creature" that also turns a party member into a Dragon. That is a sure fire way to totally wreck the confidence of your party of 7, even if they win.

P.S. You can have the wizard have one Simulacrum which is in on the Gate/Imprisonment/True Polymorph Cycle. Or have them do an Opening "Meteor Swarm" and use an illusion to pretend to be the cleric when they finally close in that 1 mile range.

[Eldariel]

As a DM not being bound by the trails and progression that players are when levelling up characters, the ability to throw high level player classed NPCs at the party can feel really cheesy from the player's side, since such NPCs can just be thrown together at a whim without effort.
It's a common RPG Horror Story, hearing about DMs that pit their custom made parties in combat with the players, with highly optimised builds, ideal gear and magic items, synergized spell selections and coordinated tactics (all NPCs following a single plan rather then a group of individuals with mixed ideas of what is happening and what they should be doing). It's never a fair fight or level playing field.

Could you please extrapolate? How is it any more or less fair to throw NPC statblocks than PC statblocks? They can have literally the same abilities: it's all up to the whim of the DM. As are their magic items, spells, etc. If anything, NPC statblocks are more gamist and less natural (my first LMoP players for example complained a bunch of times that lowly Redbrand Ruffians had two attacks when they were fighting Tier 1 PCs which made 'em just feel like more powerful characters that you are beating due to DM fiat). It feels really bull**** to fight NPC enemies who have abilities that you know are impossible to acquire by class progression (and NPCs who have unnaturally large reserves of HP for their level).

[OrlockDelesian]

This. So much of this.

As a DM not being bound by the trails and progression that players are when levelling up characters, the ability to throw high level player classed NPCs at the party can feel really cheesy from the player's side, since such NPCs can just be thrown together at a whim without effort.
It's a common RPG Horror Story, hearing about DMs that pit their custom made parties in combat with the players, with highly optimised builds, ideal gear and magic items, synergized spell selections and coordinated tactics (all NPCs following a single plan rather then a group of individuals with mixed ideas of what is happening and what they should be doing). It's never a fair fight or level playing field.

The NPC stat blocks in the monster manual, Volo's, and Mordenkainen's will offer you plenty of fighting power with a simple tweak to AC and HP to fit the tier of play.

Αs a DM since the days of 2nd Edition, I always built NPCs the same as PCs.
I understand what you are saying, but I am experienced enough to create a party of different characters than a well-oiled machine of death. I made this thread to get ideas not due to inexperience.
Also, many times and due to the lockdown, I've run my NPCs through adventures (yeah It's getting really boring after 7 months in lockdown :P )

Furthermore, this battle was not supposed to happen. These are allied NpCs that the players would get to run themselves during the final battle of the Campaign. But, player confidence and stupidity led them to betray them not once, not twice, but three times.
So this battle, must be played using the same statblocks the PCs use, or else it wouldn't be fair to the players or the NPCs (My players know- and love the fact that I treat NPCs with the same fairness that I do Player Characters be they allies or foes)

[da newt]

What are you trying to accomplish?

Do you want to create a battle that has a 50% chance of TPK / 50% chance of party win?

Do you want to punish the party for poor decisions with a battle that the party can only survive if they get very lucky, use superior tactics, and retreat once they realize they are outmatched (and the light cleric can tap into an auto-succeed Divine Intervention)?

Do you want to bring the party right to the edge of defeat but then heroically kill the light cleric in the end?

[kalkyrie]

What are you trying to accomplish?

Do you want to create a battle that has a 50% chance of TPK / 50% chance of party win?

Do you want to punish the party for poor decisions with a battle that the party can only survive if they get very lucky, use superior tactics, and retreat once they realize they are outmatched (and the light cleric can tap into an auto-succeed Divine Intervention)?

Do you want to bring the party right to the edge of defeat but then heroically kill the light cleric in the end?

On that note, bear in mind that the Light cleric's god may not want the PCs killed.
Because the god is smart enough to realise that this fight shouldn't be happening, as per your initial description.

So at the climax of the fight you can have the Light cleric call on their god for divine intervention to smite the evildoers.
And instead of the expected Meteor Swarm equivalent, the PCs get trapped in a force dome (and the light cleric takes the 'hint'). Or the PCs get banished/plane shifted to a location of the gods' choosing.

That lets you go all out, without having a TPK.

[SupahCabre]

From the comments, it seems like this is a nature themed npc party with a focus on elves