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Aquillion
2007-11-08, 11:50 PM
The description of an unseen servant is startlingly vague. In fact, a few things seem to be omitted completely...

Can an unseen servant fly or float? I always assumed it could, but the spell description doesn't explicitly say so. If not, can it fall into a pit?

Can it pass through walls, or through narrow cracks in walls and doors? It's a 'mindless, shapeless force', so this isn't clear. It isn't described as being ethereal, so I wouldn't think it can pass through completely solid objects... but can it fit through a keyhole? Can it slide through a keyhole and undo a latched door from the other side? Can it be trapped in a bottle or other object?

Can other creatures interact with it? Can they attack it normally? The spell says that it "cannot be killed" and "dissipates if it takes 6 points of damage from area attacks", but it neither bars normal attacks, nor provides any rules for them. Can it be Bull Rushed to move it? If an unseen servant is holding a sensitive pressure plate down, say, is there any non-magical way to get it off (aside from going after its caster and forcing them out of range?) What if someone wants to grapple with it, or wrest away an object it's holding? It says it's never allowed an attack roll, but it doesn't say outright that it automatically fails such contests... Can it provoke attacks of opportunity?

Does it take up space? Can other characters move freely into its space, and can it occupy the same space as an ally or enemy? Obviously, if opponents can't move into its space, it would be absurdly overpowered at low levels (a portable mini-wall of force, moving under its own power, for 1 hour/level, as long as you don't meet any casters or anyone with area effects), but if it can move onto an enemy's space, that gives it other advantages (brushing past opponents to do things behind them, say). Saying that it can't move onto other people's spaces but other people can move onto its' space is pretty clearly just inventing houserules, even if it makes sense.

Kultrum
2007-11-09, 12:11 AM
SO many bad ideas... so many angry DMs.

Aquillion
2007-11-09, 01:14 AM
SO many bad ideas... so many angry DMs.Some of them are just to illustrate the way Unseen Servant fails to specify things it really ought to specify. But the blocking spaces / passes through enemy spaces problem is real, and can't really be resolved without putting in a houserule. Likewise, from the description it seems quite likely that it can slip through a gap under a door of a certain width (it is shapeless) and open the door from the other side.

The spell description needs to, at the very least, clarify whether it's material or not, note the minimum gap it can squeeze through, and explain whether it can enter or pass through enemy spaces, or whether or not enemies can pass through its space.

tyckspoon
2007-11-09, 01:29 AM
Fair questions, tho.


Can an unseen servant fly or float? I always assumed it could, but the spell description doesn't explicitly say so. If not, can it fall into a pit?

The only specific information given on an Unseen Servant's movement is that it has a speed of 15 feet and it can't go beyond the spell's range of Close. Since the speed does not specify that it is a special movement type and the rest of the spell does not state that the Servant can levitate or otherwise leave the ground (except, logically, by climbing on things), the only thing supported by the text is that the Servant is ground-bound, just like a standard creature.


Can it pass through walls, or through narrow cracks in walls and doors? It's a 'mindless, shapeless force', so this isn't clear. It isn't described as being ethereal, so I wouldn't think it can pass through completely solid objects... but can it fit through a keyhole? Can it slide through a keyhole and undo a latched door from the other side? Can it be trapped in a bottle or other object?

I would say no to all of these, primarily for game balance reasons. The text says nothing about it, and giving the Servant the ability to pass through small cracks like that would be far more than a first-level spell is supposed to achieve. If you want to try and find some support for that viewpoint in other text, look at the Oozes- they're the closest thing to a 'shapeless' creature in the SRD, and only the Ochre mentions any ability to squish itself into smaller areas.


Can other creatures interact with it?
It has a Strength score and can touch solid objects and it's a lasting effect. I'm going to say yes; it's not like trying to interact with an incorporeal being. It's invisible, but it's not intangible.


Can they attack it normally? The spell says that it "cannot be killed" and "dissipates if it takes 6 points of damage from area attacks", but it neither bars normal attacks, nor provides any rules for them.

I would say yes to this, with the reminder that it's naturally invisible and will enjoy all benefits thereof. I don't know what the designers intended here (probably that invisible servants wouldn't be attacked, but if they wanted that they should have said 'unseen servants cannot take damage from anything.'), but I would rule that if you can locate the invisible force and get a clean shot in past the miss chance, you can dissipate it with 6 or more damage done in a single strike. Give it the base AC of 10 and leave it alone; I don't think it'd be worth the trouble to try and figure out the Servant's Dex.


Can it be Bull Rushed to move it? If an unseen servant is holding a sensitive pressure plate down, say, is there any non-magical way to get it off (aside from going after its caster and forcing them out of range?) What if someone wants to grapple with it, or wrest away an object it's holding?

Yes to all. One of the few things we know for certain about the servant is that it has a Strength of 2 and interacts with physical objects. That means it can be engaged physically, so a Bull Rush, Grapple, Disarm, or Trip should work fine. Between its painfully low Strength and what can be assumed to be an effective BAB of 0, these actions should be nearly automatic successes for almost any character.


Can it provoke attacks of opportunity?
If it has been detected, yes. You can't AoO a creature that you don't know is there. (I would swear this is actually stated directly somewhere in the rules, but I can't readily find it in the SRD. At the minimum, it is an extremely common-sense ruling.)


Does it take up space? Can other characters move freely into its space, and can it occupy the same space as an ally or enemy?

I would say yes, in general, although we have no way of knowing how much space it actually takes up. The game seems to default to Medium if no size is specifically mentioned. Keep in mind that the restriction on moving through other people's spaces only applies to enemy combatants: You can move through your ally's space all you want, it's assumed they move out of your way for a moment to let you by. You just can't end the turn there, at least not without suffering some penalties for crowding. The Unseen Servant is a complete non-combatant; it's incapable of initiating an attack. So its own allies can easily move through its space, and its enemies can move through its space because it has no way of stopping them from doing so. If another person ends its movement in the Servant's space, I would say that the Servant would maneuver such as to not interfere with the other person; it'll hug the outside edge of its space (or, for simplicity, just shunt it to the nearest open space.)

The Unseen Servant could also try to move through an opponent's space, and if they don't know it's there yet, it should be able to do so with relatively little trouble. If they do know where it's at, it'll have to abide by the normal movement rules for maneuvering around enemies- that means it'll be taking AoO's to move in, and since it can't actually make an attack or make a Tumble check high enough to move through, the only way it'll get through an opponent's space is with a successful Overrun. That's not likely to work, what with the Strength of 2 and all.

Quellian-dyrae
2007-11-09, 01:33 AM
Yeah, I hated the Unseen Servant spell for a long time (although admittedly it was mostly because it--and more to the point, Servant Swarm--couldn't be used to replicate the scenes from Sword in the Stone and Fantasia. You know which scenes I'm talking about). I finally started liking it when I realized that it isn't supposed to be the spell that lets the mage magically perform routine tasks and walk away, but the spell that lets the mage gesture at things and they do what it wants. That said, it would save a lot of headaches if, rather than wording the spell as some nonsensical summon, they just went ahead and described it as what it actually is; Telekinetic Force (as the psionic power) with an hour/level, non-concentration duration and a 20 pound limit.

tyckspoon
2007-11-09, 01:35 AM
That said, it would save a lot of headaches if, rather than wording the spell as some nonsensical summon, they just went ahead and described it as what it actually is; Telekinetic Force (as the psionic power) with an hour/level, non-concentration duration and a 20 pound limit.

In other words, Greater Mage Hand.

Chronos
2007-11-09, 02:12 AM
I would say yes, in general, although we have no way of knowing how much space it actually takes up. The game seems to default to Medium if no size is specifically mentioned.I would agree on Medium-sized: Magnificent Mansion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesMagnificentMansion.htm) includes an Unseen Servant-like effect, which manifests as translucent butlers and such, but which are otherwise mechanically identical to the first-level spell. This would also imply that they can fit through the same sorts of openings as medium-sized characters, and so on. Do note that even if the servant can't pass through a narrow space, you might be able to cast it into the other side of the space, if there's an opening large enough to allow line of effect.

Darrin
2007-11-09, 08:54 AM
Can an unseen servant fly or float? I always assumed it could, but the spell description doesn't explicitly say so. If not, can it fall into a pit?


I always thought it could as well, but since the spell doesn't give it a Fly speed, I'd have to say no. Although that does beg the question of whether you could target an unseen servant with a Levitate or Fly spell. Fly wouldn't work, since it doesn't count as a creature, although Levitate might, if you considered the unseen servant an object... although an object without any mass/weight.



Can it pass through walls, or through narrow cracks in walls and doors? It's a 'mindless, shapeless force', so this isn't clear. It isn't described as being ethereal, so I wouldn't think it can pass through completely solid objects... but can it fit through a keyhole? Can it slide through a keyhole and undo a latched door from the other side? Can it be trapped in a bottle or other object?


The spell doesn't give it the Incorporeal or Ethereal subtype, so no, it can't move through solid objects. As far as what it could fit through... ugh, I guess I like Chronos' idea of treating it as medium size. The spell description implies it can do any mundane untrained task a human could do, and it doesn't mention any size modifiers for certain tasks, so it's probably safe to assume the basic shape is roughly humanoid.



Can other creatures interact with it? Can they attack it normally? The spell says that it "cannot be killed" and "dissipates if it takes 6 points of damage from area attacks", but it neither bars normal attacks, nor provides any rules for them. Can it be Bull Rushed to move it? If an unseen servant is holding a sensitive pressure plate down, say, is there any non-magical way to get it off (aside from going after its caster and forcing them out of range?) What if someone wants to grapple with it, or wrest away an object it's holding?


Some interaction would be possible... yes, you could attack it, but unless it was an area attack, it'd be a waste of an action. It would get the normal bonuses from being invisible, although I'm not sure I'd bother rolling a miss chance on an attack with no hope of doing anything. Assuming it's treated as a medium-sized invisible creature/object, any attempt to move through it's square would be treated as a Bull Rush or Overrun, and it at least has a Strength score to resist it. I'd allow a grapple if the grappler were going to try something like moving the servant, but otherwise wouldn't bother rolling for anything else. Taking away an object would be a touch attack on the object (AC 0 modified by object size) followed by either a disarm check or just a straight Strength contest.



It says it's never allowed an attack roll, but it doesn't say outright that it automatically fails such contests... Can it provoke attacks of opportunity?


No. It can't attack, so it doesn't threaten any squares. Even if you could see it, no AoOs.



Does it take up space? Can other characters move freely into its space, and can it occupy the same space as an ally or enemy? Obviously, if opponents can't move into its space, it would be absurdly overpowered at low levels (a portable mini-wall of force, moving under its own power, for 1 hour/level, as long as you don't meet any casters or anyone with area effects), but if it can move onto an enemy's space, that gives it other advantages (brushing past opponents to do things behind them, say). Saying that it can't move onto other people's spaces but other people can move onto its' space is pretty clearly just inventing houserules, even if it makes sense.

I'd treat it just like an Overrun against an invisible creature. The unseen servant doesn't threaten, so no AoO to worry about. The simplest way of dealing with the next step is just assume the unseen servant automatically avoids whoever is moving through the square. But that's problematic... the unseen servant is mindless, so it can't consciously decide to avoid (unless it's been directed by the caster to do so), and if the person moving has Improved Overrun, it can't avoid at all.

So it may be safer to assume that the unseen servant would not get out of the way... make an opposed Strength check. If the overrunning person wins, the unseen servant is shapeless so it can't be knocked prone, but assume it has been moved out of the way and the person can continue moving. If the unseen servant actually wins... it's mindless so it can't decide to attempt to knock the mover prone, so the mover is moved back 5 feet and ends his movement there. The person moving ran into an invisible force that somehow managed to stop his movement with a Strength of 2, and must now suffer the inevitable teasing and derision of his friends for a long, long time.

Directing the unseen servant to move through an opponent's square... same thing, treat it as either a Bull Rush or an Overrun. The target would get an AoO, although rolling for it would be largely pointless, unless it was some kind of area effect (which isn't entirely impossible... throwing a flask of acid/greek fire, a net, or toss a caber maybe?). In most cases, I would imagine the caster would direct the unseen servant to move around opponents, but I could imagine a couple examples where he might want to shove around some small/tiny/weak creatures.

Darrin
2007-11-12, 11:23 AM
Some other thoughts on Unseen Servant:

If U.S. is treated like any other animated (but mindless) construct, then it would get the same number of actions a round as any other character.

This might, under some circumstances, allow your character and the U.S. to take two standard actions in a round. You will most likely have to use a move action to give it directions for anything beyond the simplest one-word commands. This isn't in the spell description, but every other spell that allows you to redirect it or change targets requires a move action to do so. Although the U.S.'s actions would be very limited, some things it could do:

* Move twice up to 30 feet (double move action)
* Activate a magic item that isn't a spell-trigger, potion, oil, or command word (standard action)
* Administer an potion/oil to an unconcious character (full-round action)
* Light a torch with a tindertwig (standard action) or flint & steel (full-round action)
* Draw a weapon for you (move action)
* Reload a heavy crossbow once (full-round action) or a light crossbow twice (two move actions).
* Fold a net (four full-round actions)
* Drop, spread, or pick up caltrops in a square (??? actions)
* Retrieve an item from your pack (move action)
* Lock or unlock a weapon in a locked gauntlet (full-round action)
* Pick up a dropped item, particularly after a disarm attempt (move action)
* Prepare a flask of oil as a thrown weapon by adding a fuse (full-round action)
* Light a smokestick (standard action with tindertwig, full-round action with flint & steel)
* Ignite a web spell (standard action with tindertwig, full-round action with flint & steel)
* Drop or strike a thunderstone (free action or standard action)
* Drop or spread a bag of flour in a square (poor man's detect invis/glitterdust... ??? action)
* Drop a bag of Alchemist's Fire in a square (does not require an attack roll to drop. You can't hit a specific creature, just a square, so you'd roll randomly to see which corner the burst was from and you'd only do 1 point of splash damage... but a Str 2 could hold up to 20 lbs of Alchemist's Fire, and that's 20 damage no save in a 5' burst.)
* It can make a skill check for anything that has a DC 10 or lower and can be used untrained... unfortunately, the only stat we're given for it is a Str of 2, so you'd have to assume any other non-Str stat would be 0, so -5 penalty on top of the DC 10, so only a 25% success... however, U.S. can "aid another" on any untrained skill you might be attempting for a +2 circumstance bonus.

Aquillion
2007-11-12, 11:57 AM
* It can make a skill check for anything that has a DC 10 or lower and can be used untrained... unfortunately, the only stat we're given for it is a Str of 2, so you'd have to assume any other non-Str stat would be 0, so -5 penalty on top of the DC 10, so only a 25% success... however, U.S. can "aid another" on any untrained skill you might be attempting for a +2 circumstance bonus.I disagree with this. There are rules for simply having 'no stat' in a particular ability, and generally (if you can attempt related actions at all) it provides no bonus or penalty. A Lich, say, has no con score; but they don't lose HP or reduce their fort save by 5 because of that (beyond losing any bonus they once had; and they can actually benefit if they once had a penalty.)

Of course, we know that the Unseen Servant can't have a 0 or a N/A for dex, since it is capable of moving...

gaymer_seattle
2007-11-12, 12:32 PM
Ask your DM, or suggest the options in advance of actually using them.

Personally I think it is a matter of flavor. Are unseen servants invisible humanoid entities similar to psionic constructs? If so, then I'd say they are capable of performing more complex tasks. Nothing on the scale of a Skill check, but moving objects. Open and closing simple items. Chests, doors, books, but not corked bottles or screw top items. They would not be able to pass through a space large enough for a small or medium humanoid creature

If the entity is amorphous, then I'd say that it could lift, push, pull, but not do anything beyond what a person could do with a single hand in a boxing glove. However, it would be able to move through small spaces like an ooze