The power level of Oathbreaker's "control undead"

[Segev]

I have seen people counter suggestions of playing an Oathbreaker with statements that it is a DM only thing and other insinuations that it might be too powerful or otherwise inappropriate. Is this in any way because the Channel Divinity option to force under to make wisdom saves or be controlled for 24 hours is too powerful?

I ask because I am tempted to suggest that it be cribbed directly to replace Grim Harvest as the Necromancer level two feature. Either let the Necromancer do it 2x per short rest, or spend a second level spell slot to do it.

It is probably too powerful to make a second level spell, even replacing the CR limit with 2x the spell slot level used to cast it rather than the class level.

[MaxWilson]

I have seen people counter suggestions of playing an Oathbreaker with statements that it is a DM only thing and other insinuations that it might be too powerful or otherwise inappropriate. Is this in any way because the Channel Divinity option to force under to make wisdom saves or be controlled for 24 hours is too powerful?

I ask because I am tempted to suggest that it be cribbed directly to replace Grim Harvest as the Necromancer level two feature. Either let the Necromancer do it 2x per short rest, or spend a second level spell slot to do it.

It is probably too powerful to make a second level spell, even replacing the CR limit with 2x the spell slot level used to cast it rather than the class level.

No, it's not NPC-only because of the Channel Divinity. It's more about the RP angle frankly.

However, Necromancer is plenty strong already. Most Wizard subclasses have some almost-ribbons and some strong features. Necromancer has 2 and 2, but even though Grim Harvest is sort of a ribbon it's also quite powerful for self-healing especially if you have access to a good source a vermin (e.g. a few Hats of Vermin) and a damage-over-time spell like Evard's Black Tentacles or (with Tasha's) Spirit Shroud or potentially Summon Undead (if the DM rules that it can trigger Grim Harvest--although that would imply strange things, like that Tiny Servant should work too). What makes it a quasi-ribbon is more the fact that a wizard should be getting to avoid taking HP damage in the first place, and that Aura of Vitality is usually better with less hassle.

But it's still a quasi-ribbon, so I wouldn't switch it out for the Oathbreaker feature 2x per short rest. However, charging a 2nd level spell slot AND limiting it to CR 4 is also kind of a quasi ribbon, so that might be okay.

[Segev]

No, it's not NPC-only because of the Channel Divinity. It's more about the RP angle frankly.

However, Necromancer is plenty strong already. Most Wizard subclasses have some almost-ribbons and some strong features. Necromancer has 2 and 2, but even though Grim Harvest is sort of a ribbon it's also quite powerful for self-healing especially if you have access to a good source a vermin (e.g. a few Hats of Vermin) and a damage-over-time spell like Evard's Black Tentacles or (with Tasha's) Spirit Shroud or potentially Summon Undead (if the DM rules that it can trigger Grim Harvest--although that would imply strange things, like that Tiny Servant should work too). What makes it a quasi-ribbon is more the fact that a wizard should be getting to avoid taking HP damage in the first place, and that Aura of Vitality is usually better with less hassle.

But it's still a quasi-ribbon, so I wouldn't switch it out for the Oathbreaker feature 2x per short rest. However, charging a 2nd level spell slot AND limiting it to CR 4 is also kind of a quasi ribbon, so that might be okay.

Frankly, my issue with Grim Harvest is that it doesn't really feel like a wizard feature, let alone a necromancer feature. It's lame and boring, and I wouldn't care enough to bother worrying about using it. I wouldn't be excited when it happens.

Ribbons should be fun, even if they're not powerful. They should do something interesting, not be something that is just tacked on because you need some text to fill space on the subclass entry.

Is your statement that all wizard level 2s are supposed to be ribbons, and thus anything that is stronger than a ribbon is overpowered?

[MaxWilson]

Is your statement that all wizard level 2s are supposed to be ribbons, and thus anything that is stronger than a ribbon is overpowered?

No. Diviner has its ribbon at level 10, for example, and a weak-ish 14 (50% as valuable as level 2). War Mage has its ribbon at level 6 (and a weak-ish level 14). Enchanter... well, I guess Enchanter doesn't have a ribbon, they are all good, although levels 2 and 6 are hard to use unless you acquire good AC somehow.

[Angelalex242]

Oathbreaker is essentially a 'Sith' class. You can really only use it in 'evil' campaigns. Now, if most of your party is likely to burn down orphanages and punt puppies...or are just plain murderhobos...you might as well allow an Oathbreaker. Good way to remind your players they're straight up Evil.

[Segev]

Oathbreaker is essentially a 'Sith' class. You can really only use it in 'evil' campaigns. Now, if most of your party is likely to burn down orphanages and punt puppies...or are just plain murderhobos...you might as well allow an Oathbreaker. Good way to remind your players they're straight up Evil.Nothing inherently says the power itself is evil, though. Really, an "oathbreaker paladin" who doesn't "act evil" isn't going to be woefully unrealistic in general, just based on his powers. Just the "yeah, it's evil, totally evil" requirements-text.


No. Diviner has its ribbon at level 10, for example, and a weak-ish 14 (50% as valuable as level 2). War Mage has its ribbon at level 6 (and a weak-ish level 14). Enchanter... well, I guess Enchanter doesn't have a ribbon, they are all good, although levels 2 and 6 are hard to use unless you acquire good AC somehow.Tortle enchanters! :smallcool:

Thinking on it, Necromancer gets the Oathbreaker's level 2 at level 14. :smallsigh: Very lame.

[MaxWilson]

Thinking on it, Necromancer gets the Oathbreaker's level 2 at level 14. :smallsigh: Very lame.

Necromancer gets a much, much better version of Oathbreaker's level 2 at level 14.

(1) It's not limited per-rest.

(2) If you're happy with what you've got you can keep it permanently (until you find something better), as long as it's not too intelligent. Either you only fight rubbish undead like Minotaur Skeletons, and you then freely use them up and them get more (see #1), or you find something halfway decent like a Vampire Spawn or Zombie Beholder and keep it as long as you can.

(3) Longer range. (60' vs. 30'.)

(4) Not limited by CR. ("An undead whose challenge rating is equal to or greater than your paladin level is immune to this effect.")

In one way, Oathbreaker is better: undead with Int 8+ don't have advantage on their saves. But that shouldn't be a big deal anyway, because (1) many undead have crummy Wis/Cha saves anyway, and (2) they may already have advantage from magic resistance, which applies equally to Channel Divinity and Command Undead. A 14th level Necromancer (Int 20, DC 18) has about a 50% chance of taking control of a Lich or Illithilich! (Cha save +3, with advantage) An Oathbreaker would have a 40% chance of taking control of the Lich (Wis save +9) and a 16% chance of taking control of the Illithilich (Wis save +9 with advantage), except they can't do either because the CR is too high.

[Segev]

You're probably right. It's just how early it comes online, and that most games will be over before you ever get level 14, that makes me want to shuffle something like this into the Necromancer because it plays to what I consider the class fantasy much more than some extra hit points.

[MaxWilson]

You're probably right. It's just how early it comes online, and that most games will be over before you ever get level 14, that makes me want to shuffle something like this into the Necromancer because it plays to what I consider the class fantasy much more than some extra hit points.

I don't know if you saw above but I thought your idea of giving the Necromancer a version like the Oathbreaker's (Wis save, 24 hours) but fueled by spell slots and capped to CR 4 is fine. Still basically a ribbon (rarely applicable), but a more flavourful one.

Incidentally Demiplane is a good place for Necromancers to keep spare Nightwalkers, etc., while you're not controlling them.

[Segev]

I don't know if you saw above but I thought your idea of giving the Necromancer a version like the Oathbreaker's (Wis save, 24 hours) but fueled by spell slots and capped to CR 4 is fine. Still basically a ribbon (rarely applicable), but a more flavourful one.I read that, then forgot it as I was typing my reply. Thanks for pointing it out again. CR 4 covers a pretty broad range of undead, which means it would do the job pretty well.


Incidentally Demiplane is a good place for Necromancers to keep spare Nightwalkers, etc., while you're not controlling them.That is an interesting point. Though it gets expensive to call them forth AND reassert control.

[MaxWilson]

I read that, then forgot it as I was typing my reply. Thanks for pointing it out again. CR 4 covers a pretty broad range of undead, which means it would do the job pretty well.

From a flavor point of view, yes. From a power point of view, well, the power is decent (in some ways similar to Animate Dead, which is a 3rd level slot, although since it's based on the Oathbreaker power it doesn't stack, unlike Animate Dead) but the niche is situational. If you run into something like a Ghast, well, spending a 2nd level spell slot to take control of it with high probability is not terrible, but Ghasts are fragile enough that it's not terrific either--and many of the options you run into will be even worse than a Ghast, like normal zombies! That's why my powergamer instincts don't get excited about the proposed ability, and therefore why my DM instincts say it's an okay thing to swap out for Grim Harvest (which likewise is interesting but not exciting per se to my powergamer instincts).


That is an interesting point. Though it gets expensive to call them forth AND reassert control.

Yeah, it's expensive in spell slots (8th level slot, plus possibly needing to swap out a prepared spell, plus the opportunity cost of not learning a different spell in the first place) but the idea is that casting Demiplane is cheaper than finding a new Nightwalker, or Mummy Lord: spending renewable vs. nonrenewable resources.

Imagine that you've got a Nightwalker, and you run into a Mummy Lord. You Feeblemind the Mummy Lord with a good roll and then beat it unconscious with nonletahl damage, and assign somebody to keep it unconscious with continued beatings. Next day, you cast Demiplane and order your Nightwalker to hop in (use Reduce if necessary to get it through the door--Large creatures can fit into Medium spaces so should be able to fit through a Medium door), then wait until the Demiplane closes.

Then go back to the unconscious Mummy Lord and do the Bestow Curse + Bane shtick to capture it. Bestow Curse cancels out Magic Resistance, Bane penalizes by d4, Feeblemind gives it a Cha save of +0, so with any luck and a good DC you'll have a 90% chance of capturing this Mummy Lord. Even if it fails though, or if you eventually lose your Mummy Lord somehow, at least you can get your Nightwalker back with high probability (95% to 100% depending on Bane, etc.).