Improved Spell Capacity and domain spells

[Biggus]

When a Cleric take the epic feat Improved Spell Capacity, do they get a domain spell slot in addition to the base one? I thought I'd read somewhere that they didn't, but now I come to look I can't find anything which specifies one way or the other.

[redking]

When a Cleric take the epic feat Improved Spell Capacity, do they get a domain spell slot in addition to the base one? I thought I'd read somewhere that they didn't, but now I come to look I can't find anything which specifies one way or the other.

Yes. Its not controversial at all. It is clearly stated in the cleric entry of the SRD (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm).


Each domain gives the cleric access to a domain spell at each spell level he can cast, from 1st on up, as well as a granted power.

Every time you take Improved Spell Capacity, you get another slot for your domain spells. The same goes for the specialist school slots of specialist wizards.

[Biggus]

It is controversial because:

1) Clerics get a domain spell at each level from 1st upwards, but there are no spells above 9th level

2) The ELH FAQ specifies that specialist Wizards get an extra spell slot from ISC but doesn't mention Clerics

3) The epic Cleric Eclavdra (ELH p.306) has her domain slots included in her spells per day totals, and she's listed as only having one spell at each level from ISC

Edit:

4) The same goes for the stat blocks in Deities & Demigods, for example Vecna has Divine Spellcasting but only gets the minimum two spells per day at level 10+. Not the same ability but the effect is the same, and if deities don't get domain slots it certainly implies to me that mortals don't either

[Darg]

Like other spellcasters, a cleric can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Cleric. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Wisdom score. A cleric also gets one domain spell of each spell level he can cast, starting at 1st level. When a cleric prepares a spell in a domain spell slot, it must come from one of his two domains (see Deities, Domains, and Domain Spells, below).

Just going to leave this here with the actual line about the domain slot.

Also, no domain spell goes higher than 9th, but you can use the higher slots to cast lower level spells or metamagic spells.

[Yael]

My take on this, having asked this on the Q&A Thread last year when played an epic cleric/wizard gestalt.


It is controversial because:

1) Clerics get a domain spell at each level from 1st upwards, but there are no spells above 9th level

True it is you don't gain more domain spells, you do, however, gain domain spell slots, which can be used to apply metamagic to domain spells you already have, since those slots can only be used for domain spells.

2) The ELH FAQ specifies that specialist Wizards get an extra spell slot from ISC but doesn't mention Clerics
Since the feat doesn't specify any spellcasting class, clerics aren't excluded.

3) The epic Cleric Eclavdra (ELH p.306) has her domain slots included in her spells per day totals, and she's listed as only having one spell at each level from ISC
Could be a mistake on the statblock, which is not unheard of. The cleric clearly states that they get a domain spell slot at each spell level they can cast.
@Darg got the quote on that.

4) The same goes for the stat blocks in Deities & Demigods, for example Vecna has Divine Spellcasting but only gets the minimum two spells per day at level 10+. Not the same ability but the effect is the same, and if deities don't get domain slots it certainly implies to me that mortals don't either
Same as 3).

Edit on 2 since I misread the question.
Since the rule applies for wizards, there's no reason why they would get divine spell slots, since the bonus slots for both specialists and clerics are worded similarly.
1In addition to the stated number of spells per day for 1st- through 9th-level spells, a cleric gets a domain spell for each spell level, starting at 1st.
A specialist wizard can prepare one additional spell of her specialty school per spell level each day.
Emphasis mine.
On this case, text triumphs table, and because of what @Darg quoted, there's no implication that it should stop on 9th level spells, since the PHB does not contemplate epic spells at all.

[Biggus]

True it is you don't gain more domain spells, you do, however, gain domain spell slots, which can be used to apply metamagic to domain spells you already have, since those slots can only be used for domain spells.


Everyone keeps quoting the Cleric entry of the PHB as if it settles the issue. It doesn't because

1) the quote is "A cleric also gets one domain spell of each spell level he can cast, starting at 1st level". Later in the paragraph it talks about domain spell slots, but it doesn't say that Clerics get domain slots at every level they can cast.

2) lots of class features (and other progressions) change after level 20, so the PHB doesn't have the same conclusive authority at epic levels that it does at nonepic levels.


Could be a mistake on the statblock, which is not unheard of.


It's true that statblocks often contain errors, but the creative teams on the ELH and D&DG are different, so it's not a case of an single developer misunderstanding the rule or forgetting to include them; it would be an odd coincidence if two of them had made the exact same mistake.

I'm not trying to be contrary, I would have sworn that I'd seen it specified somewhere in an official source that domain spell slots don't continue at epic levels, but it was so long ago I have no idea where it was. I was most bamboozled when I looked for it and couldn't find it anywhere.

[Yael]

Everyone keeps quoting the Cleric entry of the PHB as if it settles the issue. It doesn't because

1) the quote is "A cleric also gets one domain spell of each spell level he can cast, starting at 1st level". Later in the paragraph it talks about domain spell slots, but it doesn't say that Clerics get domain slots at every level they can cast.

That is of course, correct. However, the cleric does not specify "how many" domain spell slots you gain, it only references them to go along with the domain spells domains grant, which could be the answer and have no domain spells to be given after 9th, however because it was a FAQ that answers the Specialist Wizard slots question, we could take it as "both" get them, or "neither", given the fact the epic wizard does not elaborate on Improved Spell Capacity and the extra slots.

The most straightforward answer is to go with the PHB and have them progress "at each level" a cleric can cast. If there is something that states the contrary, as you said, finding the source would clear the issue~

[Darg]

Everyone keeps quoting the Cleric entry of the PHB as if it settles the issue. It doesn't because

1) the quote is "A cleric also gets one domain spell of each spell level he can cast, starting at 1st level". Later in the paragraph it talks about domain spell slots, but it doesn't say that Clerics get domain slots at every level they can cast.

Spells per day are spell slots. I'm not quite understanding what you are trying to say here. The "spell" in italics is the single spell to cast per day that is the domain slot. If this kind of language is that foreign, bonus spells from wisdom means you get spells known instead of spells per day right? "Each spell level he can cast" explicitly says they get the additional spell every spell level that the cleric has the ability to cast.


That is of course, correct. However, the cleric does not specify "how many" domain spell slots you gain,

I quoted the exact passage that expressly gives one spell per day solely devoted to being the domain slot. If explicit language doesn't convince people, I don't know what will.

[Biggus]

Spells per day are spell slots. I'm not quite understanding what you are trying to say here. The "spell" in italics is the single spell to cast per day that is the domain slot. If this kind of language is that foreign, bonus spells from wisdom means you get spells known instead of spells per day right? "Each spell level he can cast" explicitly says they get the additional spell every spell level that the cleric has the ability to cast.

The sentence that specifies they get one at every level doesn't say spells per day, it says spells. Protection from Evil (for example) is a spell, a spell slot is what you cast it from. They can't get domain spells after 9th level, because there aren't any spells above 9th level.

I understand that the following sentences can be read as meaning that they mean you get a domain spell slot at every level you can cast, but it doesn't actually say that.

[Crake]

1) the quote is "A cleric also gets one domain spell of each spell level he can cast, starting at 1st level". Later in the paragraph it talks about domain spell slots, but it doesn't say that Clerics get domain slots at every level they can cast.

In that section, spells and spell slots appear to be used interchangably, as it doesn't say you get bonus spell slots from high wisdom, merely bonus spells:

"In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Wisdom score. A cleric also gets one domain spell of each spell level he can cast, starting at 1st level."

[Darg]

The sentence that specifies they get one at every level doesn't say spells per day, it says spells. Protection from Evil (for example) is a spell, a spell slot is what you cast it from. They can't get domain spells after 9th level, because there aren't any spells above 9th level.

I understand that the following sentences can be read as meaning that they mean you get a domain spell slot at every level you can cast, but it doesn't actually say that.


ABILITIES AND SPELLCASTERS

The ability that governs bonus spells (see Chapter 3: Classes) depends on what type of spellcaster your character is: Intelligence for wizards; Wisdom for clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers; or Charisma for sorcerers and bards. In addition to having a high ability score, a spellcaster must be of high enough class level to be able to cast spells of a given spell level. (See the class descriptions in Chapter 3 for details.) For instance, the wizard Mialee has an Intelligence score of 15, so she’s smart enough to get one bonus 1st-level spell and one bonus 2nd-level spell. (She will not actually get the 2nd-level spell until she is 3rd level wizard, since that’s the min-imum level a wizard must be to cast 2nd-level spells.)

It's not saying they get a bonus spell known. It is saying they get a bonus spell casts per day, aka spell slots. If it were referring to bonus spells known or added to the list it would say so.

[AvatarVecna]

The rules aren't 100% unambiguous, and the stat blocks are unreliable. The closest we have to a comparable edge case is specialist wizards.

[Darg]

It is 100% unambiguous though. If you use the language in the PHB, it's obvious that the bonus spell is referring to spell slots not bonus spells known. Clerics and druids don't even have any known spells. They simply gain access to their lists and are allowed to prepare and cast from them. There is nothing to confuse it with.


Each domain gives the cleric access to a domain spell at each spell level he can cast, from 1st on up, as well as a granted power.

This should not be possible to confuse with:


In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Wisdom score. A cleric also gets one domain spell of each spell level he can cast, starting at 1st level.

The only way it can be confusing is if you aren't reading with the context of the book in mind. At that point it's not that the rules are ambiguous, but simply the culture shock of historical vocabulary.

[Drelua]

If we were pretending epic spells don't exist, is there as clear rule anywhere that says domain spell slots can be used to cast a metamagic version of a lower level domain spell? I wouldn't have thought that was generally allowed, and it's not something I've ever seen anyone try to do. Plus the below quote seems to rule that out to me. It says one or the other, which to me says you can only cast one of those 2 spells in that slot, not any other spell, including different level domain spells.


With access to two domain spells at a given spell level, a cleric prepares one or the other each day in his domain spell slot

And the PHB rule doesn't really mean anything about the writers' intent to me since it was written with the assumption that spells above 9th level don't exist.


In that section, spells and spell slots appear to be used interchangably, as it doesn't say you get bonus spell slots from high wisdom, merely bonus spells:

"In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Wisdom score. A cleric also gets one domain spell of each spell level he can cast, starting at 1st level."

There is a very clear distinction between the phrases "a domain spell at each spell level he can cast" and "can cast an extra spell per day." 'Spells per day' is the phrase used in the charts of class progression where it shows their spells slots, so I would argue that based on that the phrases 'spell slots' and 'spells per day' should be considered interchangeable, but "a domain spell at each level" is very different from either phrase.